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How To Enter Heaven

Do unsaved sinners meet God's terms by their own free will in order to enter heaven? What does Scripture say?

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 ---Mark_V. on 8/9/13
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//---kathr4453 on 8/15/13// Glory to God - Blessings sis, Shalom

//---christan on 8/16/13//
Jn1 Read (all)

//The verses (John 1:12-13) mean that God has determined the method to become children of God. Not by birthright, not by the willpower of men, and not by anything done in the flesh (works) can we become children of God. The verses do not talk about a selection of people. ---Mark_Eaton on 8/16/13//
Agree - Well stated Brother...Shalom
---

His Word spoken/written and performed by Him alone In Spirit and In truth.Gal 5:22-26, 1Cor2

Elohyim: different realms/eions/worlds Hebs 11:3
Imanuel:YHVH with us
Ysha:YHVH Savior
Christ: Word of Elohyim testified-confirmed Anoint Holy 1 Cor 2
---char on 8/16/13


Mark E, I am glad you agree on something. That is great. You now say,
"I agree, but God does not make us spiritually alive before the new birth." The new birth is when God makes us spiritually alive. We were dead in trespasses and sins, following the prince of the power of the air at the time God made us alive. It's a new birth because you did not have it. It is a reborn because you were already born physically. First of the flesh, now of the Spirit. And remember the passages in John 1:12,13) tell us that those who believed, and became children of God were those born of God. They were first born spiritually of God by God, in order for them to believe and become children of God.
---Mark_V. on 8/16/13


//---christan on 8/16/13//
the election Romans 8(all)[...] 26-30,Eph1(all)[...]4-5

Rom11(all)[...]
4 "But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal."

5 "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace."

6 "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

7 "What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for, but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded"
[...]
---char on 8/16/13


para-lambano 3880

1) to take to, to take with one's self, to join to one's self
a) an associate, a companion
b) metaph.
1) to accept or acknowledge one to be such as he professes to be
2) not to reject, not to withhold obedience
2) to receive something transmitted
a) an office to be discharged
b) to receive with the mind
1) by oral transmission: of the authors from whom the tradition proceeds
2) by the narrating to others, by instruction of teachers (used of disciples)
---char on 8/16/13


"The HOLY SPIRIT convicts all of sin." Samuelbb7

I would assume you're speaking for and on behalf of the doctrine of freewill? If not, please forgive me.

For now, I will assume you're speaking for freewill. Is that what the Scripture implies? That everyone of mankind is "convicted of sin" by the Holy Spirit? If freewill is right, why are there who will still go to hell even after being "convicted of sin" by the Holy Spirit?

Are you saying that the sinner is all more powerful than the Holy Spirit even after they've been "convicted of sin" to thwart God's will to save his soul? I really find that hard to believe nor even taught in the Holy Bible.
---christan on 8/16/13




lambano 2983 (look up all)

to take hand, lay hold of, any person or thing in order to use it
to take upon one's self
to take in order to carry away
without the notion of violence, i,e to remove, take away
to take what is one's own, to take to one's self, to make one's own
to claim, procure
of that which when taken is not let go, to seize, to lay hold of, apprehend
catch at, reach after, strive to obtain
to admit, receive
to receive what is offered not to refuse or reject
to take, to choose, select
to receive (what is given), to gain, get, obtain, to get back
---char on 8/16/13


Great verse LindaH....

Awesome.

So here is FREE WILL at work...


Oh but your answer back Linda will be..

Yes, but as Robots God put it in our heart to ask for the Holy Spirit

Oh Wait, that can't be right, for they say that God just like that gives the Holy Spirit only to His elect and no asking is necessary. If we asked first we would be saving ourselves and that is a work.
---kathr4453 on 8/16/13


The HOLY SPIRIT convicts all of sin. John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
JESUS draws all to him. John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all unto me.
Yes we are only saved by the will of GOD. 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
GOD does not choose for us. For if He did all would be saved.
---Samuelbb7 on 8/16/13


""*[whosoever]- even to them that believe on His name..." char"

Question: Does "whosoever" used in the Scriptures literally imply anybody who uses their freewill to choose Christ? Or does it imply as what Christ declared, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:37,44 - a particular group of only God's elect?

LindaH: if being "born of the Spirit" is not an important subject to you - which seems to be, you should stay out of this particular conversation. Don't sit on the fence.
---christan on 8/16/13


They don't.If they repent & turn to God & accept his son as the only way to God, only then can they enter. Doing it our way won't have us enter, only Gods way.
---Candice on 8/16/13




//Mark_V. on 8/16/13//
Actually,brother, I copied and paste(KJV) and provided Strongs concordance # which are not my Words.

Here's what I'm prompt to say (again),these are my Words
//Do not believe my words or any other mans word//

Jn1 (All)
11 He came unto (his own), and (his own) received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to (them) gave he power to become the sons of God,

even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

*His own still refers to Israel who 'received Him Not'
but as many as received (still the word paralambano)

(his own) Isaiah 43:1"thou art Mine"

Shalom
---char on 8/16/13


Such is the foolishness and ignorance of some that they think they can command God to give them His Spirit in the regeneration process--Christan

The more you two speak the more you prove yourself a plant of the enemy. Tactics used by the Jesuit Order. "To the Christian, become as a Christian"

If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? (Luke 11:13)

You dont "COMMAND" anything of God, but He does give if you ASK.
---LindaH on 8/16/13


See anywhere it says it's the "will of the man" that chooses to be the sons of God? In fact, it completely obliterates the doctrine of freewill, if anything at all!
---christan on 8/16/13

The verses (John 1:12-13) mean that God has determined the method to become children of God. Not by birthright, not by the willpower of men, and not by anything done in the flesh (works) can we become children of God. The verses do not talk about a selection of people.

It is the will of many men to be children of God. Just look at the religions of the world. Many want a relationship with God. But God has chosen the way and many reject His way.
---Mark_Eaton on 8/16/13


MarkVrefer to Mark_Eaton for the correct answer. Mark_Eaton is correct. YOU are not.

You again CLAIM your spirit died with Adam and it is THAT spirit that is re-birthed....correct? WRONG WRONG WRONG, that is called REINCARNATION period.

So you tell us. WHAT died with Christ....your physical body? Again, explain to us, if you are already DEAD in trespass and sin, why do you have to DIE AGAIN WITH CHRIST in order to be QUICKENED together with Him?

No please answer the questions. What part of your self is Galatains 2:20 .."I AM crucified with Christ, NO LONGER I ....who is I here?

I won't call you a LIAR as you insult others. However you are IGNORANT of the CROSS, WHY the CROSS and what transacted at the CROSS.
---kathr4453 on 8/16/13


The rebirth is a spiritual berth. SPIRITUAL. When God makes us alive together with Christ, it is a spiritual birth.
---Mark_V. on 8/16/13

I agree, but God does not make us spiritually alive before the new birth.

If God made us alive spiritually before the new birth, it would be called spiritual resurrection or transmutation. The Scriptures do not talk about either one. The Scriptures only talk about new birth, how we are to be born again, born of God, or born from above.

Remember, no baby exists before it is conceived.
---Mark_Eaton on 8/16/13


Kathr, I suppose you cannot stop lying about us and what we teach. It just comes out of your mouth each day. More complains and no Truth at all. Here you say about us:
"Exactly Christan, So our own flesh cannot rebirth itself, nor is our flesh rebirthed PERIOD, as you both teach."
You cannot hear spiritual things. We have never said the physical body is reborn. The physical body dies. Hello?
The rebirth is a spiritual berth. SPIRITUAL. When God makes us alive together with Christ, it is a spiritual birth. Sinful man is dead in trespasses and sins. When God brings us alive, He quickens us. We are already physically alive at the time. In the resurrection we will have new bodies prepared for eternity.
---Mark_V. on 8/16/13


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Christian, why do you say such things. It PROVES you don't even read what others say.

The only FOOLISHNESS here Christan is yours.....you just proved it.
---kathr4453 on 8/16/13


1 Corinthians 1:23

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness,.


Greeks here mean GENTILES, of which Christan is.

I preached THE CROSS, AKA Christ Crucified, and Christan finally came out of the closet and called it foolishness. It never fails. They have both done this time and time again, then turn around and deny they do it.
---kathr4453 on 8/16/13


Char says,
12 "But as many as (received-paralambano) Him, to (them)gave He power to become the sons of God, -----even to them that believe on His name"

And who are those who believe in Him, receive Him and becomes sons of God? Those "who were born, not of blood, nor the will of the flesh, nor the will of man" but of God" ( John 1:13).
There is no need for special hermeneutics. Only those born of God, not the will of man nor the will of the flesh but born of God.
---Mark_V. on 8/16/13


Born Again, according to scripture, who were dead in trespasses and sin, and were MADE ALIVE TOGETHER WITH CHRIST as a result of first dying with Christ.

So you see, you were not first made alive, then had to DIE AGAIN, to be made alive AGAIN IN CHRIST.

So you believe your old sinful man was made alive first. Scripture tells us our old sinful man was crucified with Christ.

God never puts new wine on old wine skins. If perhaps you read the WHOLE council of God...

"Those who" ( action on our part) eat my flesh and drink my Blood I WILL RAISE UP in the last day. Still again the conclusion of John 6 YOU FAIL TO ADHEAR TO. And no, I'm not talking RCC.

That verse means CRUCIFIED WITH CHRIST.
---kathr4453 on 8/16/13


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"*[whosoever]---even to them that believe on His name - them - he gave power to become sons" char

NOTE: half a gospel is NO GOSPEL! That is, it's not complete with regards to the context in John 1:11-13 what you have quoted. Why not continue what John declared? Here, this is what it says after the verse you quoted,

"...which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

See anywhere it says it's the "will of the man" that chooses to be the sons of God? In fact, it completely obliterates the doctrine of freewill, if anything at all!
---christan on 8/16/13


Matthew 11:1 "And it came to pass, when Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve disciples, he departed thence to teach and to preach in their cities."

After that he ended commanding his twelve disciples, he spoke briefly to a couple of John's disciples and thereof he spoke to the multitudes (Matthew 11:7). Matthew chapter 11 ends with these words to the multitudes:

Matthew 11:28_30 "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me, for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."
---Nana on 8/16/13


"And you hath He quickened, WHO WERE DEAD in trespasses and sins" Ephesians 2:1
---christan on 8/15/13

I will explain this again.

The word quickened in Eph 2:1 does not even exist, it was added by the translators. The word quickened does exist in Eph 2:5.

Eph 2:5 "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved,)"

The English word quickened is the Greek root word zoopoieo which has the meaning to "produce alive", "begat", "bear living young". The same Greek word is used in Rom 8:11, Col 2:13, and 1 Pet 3:18.

The word does not mean to make alive from the dead. It means to be born alive.
---Mark_Eaton on 8/16/13


Char, that was awesome!
Amen!
---kathr4453 on 8/15/13


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Such is the foolishness and ignorance of some that they think they can command God to give them His Spirit in the regeneration process. Basically declaring themselves to be alive and have the ability to choose God, who in essence is Spirit, by their fabled freewill.

In short, they're calling the Word nothing but a lie, for it was declared by Paul to the Ephesians Christians of their state before they became alive in Christ, "And you hath He quickened, WHO WERE DEAD in trespasses and sins" Ephesians 2:1

Why does God need to make you alive if you are already alive to believe Him? See how foolish the doctrine of freewill can be? Even worse, deadly!
---christan on 8/15/13


//-kathr4453 on 8/15/13// --Agree.
Jn 1:11 "He came unto His own, and His own (received-paralambano) Him not."

*Receive # 3880 paralambano
To join to ones self an associate, a campanion,To accept or acknowledge one as such as he professes to be, to receive with the mind etc

*His Own:Israel(elect/chosen) Isaiah 43:1

12 "But as many as (received-paralambano) Him, to (them)gave He power to become the sons of God, -----even to them that believe on His name"

**[Who so ever....]**(even to them that believe)

"As many as (received - paralambano) Him",
*Israel Chosen/elect

*[whosoever]---even to them that believe on His name - them - he gave power to become sons
---char on 8/15/13


Its spiritual blindness. It has to be.

But as many as received him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God

How do you become a son of God? You have to be BORN into the family of God by the Spirit! When you receive the Spirit you become a Son of God!

It does not read to those who became the sons of God, they believed on him.

Always the cart before the horse with you two. Amazing
---LindaH on 8/15/13


Exactly Christan, So our own flesh cannot rebirth itself, nor is our flesh rebirthed PERIOD, as you both teach.

But again John 1: is saying NEITHER, and that is where you may be so deceived.

Christ in you is the NEW BIRTH, and that comes by RECEIVING HIM.

We are begotten sons THROUGH JESUS CHRIST. We are sons because we are united together with Him. " United" is the same concept as becoming ONE in marriage. And consummation of any marriage is total surrender on both parties. Jesus death was His total surrender, our dying with Christ is OUR total surrender resulting in that UNITED MOMENT. It's a MYSTERY Christan, as Paul tells us in Ephesians 5-6.
---kathr4453 on 8/15/13


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Romans 6:5. Planted together, means UNITED TOGETHER in His death, resulting in the likeness of His Resurrection. This IS your new Birth, Christ in you.

And as Paul further teaches, ...

That I may KNOW HIM, and the power of HIS RESURRECTION, being made conformable to His Death, ...... Colossians 2. Now Colossians 3 tell us, WE ARE DEAD, and our life NOW is hidden with God in Christ Jesus, and when Christ WHO IS OUR LIFE...

I am CRUCIFIED with Christ, no longer I but CHRIST IN ME......

Jesus touched on the truth, but gave the deeper truths of this MYSTERY to Paul, to preach to ALL NATIONS for the OBEDIENCE OF FAITH.

Do you really want to PROMOTE God's will. This is what PAUL PROMOTED.
---kathr4453 on 8/15/13


So Christan, when I say Calvinism leave out the CROSS, leaves out everything having to do with our being UNITED, UNION, CONSUMMATION with Christ in death and resurrection life RESULTING in the NEW BIRTH, you argue against it. You are enemies of the CROSS, and the doctrine of the CROSS.

John says eternal life is to KNOW, Jesus said is John 17, that they may KNOW you, ....

KNOW here means that of being united, UNION, as in the marriage bed. Not just in name only. When the woman says I DO, she does by her own free will. Anything else is RAPE.

Refusing to SURRENDER is to DENY Christ His rightful place, resulting in NO CONSUMMATION resulting in, NOT "KNOWING".
---kathr4453 on 8/15/13


Mark E, passages where God made us spiritually alive.
(Eph. 2:1-13). The spiritual life we receive comes from God. That happens first. Here Paul is speaking to believers, about who we were before God made us spiritually alive. We were physically born already, the new birth was a spiritual birth.
"But God who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us" because of His mercy and great love for us, those he is talking about. Why say, loved us, if God love everyone the same? "even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ by grace you have been saved, and raised us up together, and made us seat together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.."
---Mark_V. on 8/15/13


"But as many as received him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name: Which were born, NOT OF BLOOD, NOR OF THE WILL OF THE FLESH, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, BUT OF GOD." John 1:12,13

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." John 3:6-8

What these verses explicitly declares is, the flesh doesn't determine nor have the ability to be "born of the Spirit".
---christan on 8/14/13


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The Holy Spirit first makes you spiritually alive together with Christ, then grants you the gifts of faith and repentance, baptizes you into one spiritual body in Christ, endwells you with the Spirit, and seals you for assurance.
---Mark_V. on 8/14/13

My understanding is faulty.

I can find Scriptural passages where we are sealed by the HS (Eph 1:13), where we have the HS in us (Gal 4:6), where we are baptised by the HS (Act 11:16).

But I cannot find the Scriptural passage for "The Holy Spirit first makes you spiritually alive together with Christ, then grants you the gifts of faith and repentance".

Can you provide BCV for this reference?
---Mark_Eaton on 8/14/13


Heb 2(all)
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succor them that are tempted.

Lk 4 (all)

*It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

*Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

*It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

Shalom
---char on 8/14/13


//---Mark_Eaton on 8/12/13--Blessing Brother-//continued'--


We Know It is (In Christ Works) that Our Faith is (In) - therefore - Declared

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Standing in agreement with you- declaring His death and resurrection - defeated the devil.
Berishyth: From Beginning from above Lamb slain

Heb.11:3 "Though faith we understand that the (worlds') (were framed) by the Word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."
---char on 8/14/13


//--kathr4453 on 8/14/13//blessing sis- Amen.

//We Believe "Christ Works" destroyed the feeble works of the devil --- Period.

Rom10 (all)
"Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved."[...]//

*Elohyim "calls" Israel...

Is 43 But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee,

(I have called thee by thy name,

thou art mine.)[...]

12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore (ye are my witnesses), saith the LORD,

(that...I am God)

Word of God - Ysha: YHVH Savior
---char on 8/14/13


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Hebrews 4:16
Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

That we may OBTAIN MERCY, AND FIND GRACE.


But there is something WE NEED TO DO FIRST. What would that be?

Ans: "COME BOLDLY WITH CONFIDENCE"....... "TO" the throne of Grace.

God said it ...BELIEVE IT.
---kathr4453 on 8/14/13


1 Thessalonians 5:
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but "to obtain salvation"by our Lord Jesus Christ,


Please look up the word OBTAIN.
---kathr4453 on 8/14/13


Obtain ...strongs 2983

1) to take
a) to take up a thing to be carried
2) to take upon one's self
b) to take to one's self, to make one's own
1) to claim, procure, for one's self
a) to associate with one's self as companion, attendant
2) of that which when taken is not let go, to seize, to lay hold of, apprehend
3)
to take to one's self, lay hold upon, take possession >2) to receive what is offered
3) not to refuse or reject
4) to receive a person, give him access to one's self,
a) to take, to choose, select
2) to receive (what is given), to gain, get, obtain, to get back
---kathr4453 on 8/14/13


Mark E. the passage you gave in Eph. 1:13 when you said,
"However, as Eph 1:13 and 2 Cor 1:22 tells us, we are sealed with the HS of promise after having believed". That passage is true. The Holy Spirit first makes you spiritually alive together with Christ, then grants you the gifts of faith and repentance, baptizes you into one spiritual body in Christ, endwells you with the Spirit, and seals you for assurance. There are many works of the spirit.
"Knowing beloved brethren, your election by God. For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but with power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance..." (1 Thess. 1:4,5).
---Mark_V. on 8/14/13


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Mark E, You ask,
"So, you disagree with Scripture?" No.
2: Peter 3:9 is talking about the elect. Also the passage does not teach that God wants some to perish, what it does say, is that He is long suffering not wishing that any of the elect perish. Does it mean others will? Of course. Then say,
"The curse was a result of Adam's sin." that is correct, God gave a commanded and man disobeyed, God was true to His word, that if Adam disobeyed he would die. Then ask "God IS love, ALL love, not some love." But He is also Just not just love, don't forget that. Then say,
" God does not plan for some to perish" When God put the curse, He knew many would perish.
---Mark_V. on 8/14/13


"Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?" (Romans 9:21)

"Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God," (2 Corinthians 3:5)

"So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy." (Romans 9:16)

How many of us have been freely willing, today, to love any and all people, and to do only what Jesus has us doing in His "rest for your souls" (in Matthew 11:29)??
---willie_c: on 8/14/13


//Mark_Eaton on 8/12/13//Greetings Brother-

Love this and will declare the Word Of God that God alone confirms.
Elohyims Word became flesh died and Resurrected (complete action) - DEFEATED death(adversary/devil)-
(Heb 2(all)
This is the very function of faith the adversary has attempted (without success) to defeat.

That is the 'Word of Faith' preached.
Rom10 (all)
"Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved."[...]

But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the 'word of faith', which we preach,[...]

10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
---char on 8/14/13


Well MarkV, God's "Mercy on Israel" vs Pharoah and all of Egypt were the issue in that verse. Because Israel already belonged to God, and God already said to Abraham, "I will bless those WHO BLESS YOU, and Curse those who CURSE YOU", would you expect God not to keep His Promises to Abraham?

BUT is God's "Mercy" on you today based on that OR is God's Mercy on you based SOLELY on the Death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and His shed Blood?

TODAY anyone can come BOLDLY to the THRONE OF GRACE to find mercy. God also had MERCY on Hagar and Ishmael yet they were not the ELECT chosen as Isaac was. God even BLESSED the 1st Pharaoh who received blessings because he blessed Joseph God of Israel.
---kathr4453 on 8/13/13


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This is what MarkV and christen fail to understand... Pharaoh's heart was already hardened against Israel. This NEW pharaoh after the Pharaoh of Joseph put them in bondage and slavery. God remembered His COVENANT WITH ABRAHAM concerning the PHYSICAL descendants of Abraham....which MarkV YOU ARE NOT!


Exodus 2:23-25

23 And it came to pass in process of time, that the king of Egypt died: and the children of Israel sighed by reason of the bondage, and they cried, and their cry came up unto God by reason of the bondage.

24 And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.
---kathr4453 on 8/13/13


Confession of faith does not earn you the Spirit of God.
---christan on 8/12/13

I agree. There is no earning what the Scriptures describe as a "free gift".

However, as Eph 1:13 and 2 Cor 1:22 tells us, we are sealed with the HS of promise after having believed.

We are sealed similar to a bethrothal. Think of it in this way. Jesus is the groom coming for His bride. He previously picked His bride but the bride must still choose the groom. He comes for a willing bride, not a kidnapped or unknowing bride.

Eph 1:13 "In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise"
---Mark_Eaton on 8/13/13


If God wanted no one to parish there would've been no curse by God.
---Mark_V. on 8/13/13

So, you disagree with Scripture? The verse from 2 Peter is incorrect and God does want some to perish?

The curse was a result of Adam's sin. God did not plan for Adam to sin. God IS love, ALL love, not some love. God does not plan for some to perish and others to live. God wants ALL to live.

It is only the rejection of Jesus that changes the course of God's love for us. Rejecting Jesus brings consequences, like the curse.
---Mark_Eaton on 8/13/13


Kathr, why make things up? Is it to sound religious? Here you first say,
"Markv's fantasy heaven, his god picks and chooses," My God does pick and choose whom He wants to have mercy on. "..those who are called according to His purpose" (Rom. 8:28) "Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens " (Rom. 9:18). Sinfulman does not choose for Him. He is dead in trespasses and sin. God doesn't have to wave a magic wand, When He speaks it is done. Then say,
"But in scripture the old sin man Adam is actually crucified with Christ," Adam was never crucified with Christ. Jesus did not come for thousands of years later. You don't have to make anything up.
---Mark_V. on 8/13/13


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Markv's fantasy heaven, his god picks and chooses, by waving some magic wand re-birthing the old sin man Adam, called born again..

But in scripture the old sin man Adam is actually crucified with Christ, being buried with Him in death and THEN raised up with Christ where being QUICKENED is together with the Risen Christ AFTER one identifies with Him in death. The New Creature/creation is now a member of the NEW CREATION. No part of the old creation or old man Adam1 can enter in. This and this alone is what we Glory in ...Galatians 6.

God forbid that I would Glory, EXCEPT IN THE CROSS which gives us access into the NEW Heaven and earth through Jesus Christ ALONE...the Head of the NEW CREATION.
---kathr4453 on 8/13/13


Mark E. you say,
"2 Pet 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is long-suffering toward "us", not willing that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" Peter is referring to the elect, those chosen by God before the foundation of the world who are been born in sin. If God didn't want a single person to parish, why did Jesus come too late? Millions had died without Christ. Peter was talking to the brethren (v.8) and (v.6,7) the many reserved for fire, he couldn't have meant them too. Then say,
Luke 10:16 "He who hears you hears Me," only His sheep hear His voice.
If God wanted no one to parish there would've been no curse by God.
---Mark_V. on 8/13/13


"How does Romans 10:9 precede John 3:3-7?"
Christian
Have you ever thought that both passages tie right in together?
We have a habit of seeking what we need to prove our "point" and read no further.
Continue to read the John passage.
Jesus was dealing with a Pharisee/master/teacher. He was, like so many, confused about the "mechanics" of Salvation.
Jesus questioned him about issues and taught him about being born again. He also told him what being lost was in John 3:16-18.
18- He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Continue reading 19-21.
---Elder on 8/13/13


//That's how seriously deadly the doctrine of freewill can be.//

The problem is that is not the doctrine of freewill. Freewill is that you are responsible for your actions in faith when the God of heaven draws you to himself by confessing that God is your savior and the path to righteousness.
---Scott1 on 8/13/13


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How does Romans 10:9 precede John 3:3-7? Confession of faith does not earn you the Spirit of God. If one could confess that Christ is God without being born of the Spirit, why on earth does he then still need to be born of the Spirit since he can belief in Christ without first being born of the Spirit? That's how seriously deadly the doctrine of freewill can be.

Scripture explicitly declares, "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." Acts 13:48 - Notice it doesn't teach you the Gentiles believed on their own but were "ordained", ie "chosen", obviously by God to believe.
---christan on 8/12/13


So, what many of you are saying is that all people who has not heard the word "Jesus" from the beginning of time until the 1800s will die forever.

What's the purpose of the second resurrection if all mankind who has not heard the word "Jesus" will die forever?

That is not my God. My God will have mercy on those who have not heard the word "Jesus." That's the reason for the second resurrection when all others, all non-christians, will be judge BY GOD from the Book of Life ACCORDING TO THEIR WORK ON EARTH.
---Steveng on 8/12/13


There is no where that the Bible states or implys that adhearing to Rom 10:9-13 ia a work. Here you show that you don't understand what a work is.
In most places confess means to agree. I John 1:9 for example.
Learn what a work is and then come back.
---Elder on 8/12/13


markv, why are we as Christians taught to bring the sinners in? if we could only bring them in under gospel preaching, many would be saved that will never be saved if we would go out in the highways and hedges and witness.
---shira4368 on 8/12/13


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The sinner is represented as a lost sheep, and a lost sheep never returns to the fold unless he is sought after and brought back to the fold by the shepherd. No man of himself can repent, and make himself worthy of the blessing of justification. The Lord Jesus is constantly seeking to impress the sinners mind and attract him to behold Himself, the Lamb of God. We cannot take a step toward spiritual life save as Jesus draws and strengthens the soul, and leads us to experience that repentance which needeth not to be repented of. When the soul lays hold upon Christ as the only hope of salvation, Selected Messages 1:389-392.
---Samuelbb7 on 8/12/13


He made us alive so that we could confess and be saved...God does not pour out His Spirit on everyone
---Mark_V. on 8/12/13

2 Pet 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance"

Luke 10:16 "He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me"

God wants all to come to Him and has made the way for all to come, yet many remain unwilling and reject Him and Jesus.
---Mark_Eaton on 8/12/13


Mark E, man is not born again because he confessed, he confessed because he is born of God,
you say that in order to be born again you must,"Rom 10:9 "that if "you" confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved" Man is not born again by his works, and confessing is a work of man. Man is saved by Grace through faith.
"But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses made us alive together with Christ by grace you have been saved, and raised us up together.." (Eph. 2:4-6). He made us alive so that we could confess and be saved.
---Mark_V. on 8/12/13


"Jesus answered, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
---char on 8/12/13

Exactly.

And how does a person get born again?

Rom 10:9 "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved"
---Mark_Eaton on 8/12/13


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Mark_V.: "People without God are condemned already. Anything without faith is sin. All they did was sin."

Mark V, you are blinded by Satan concerning human behavior. Sure humans are sinful, but many missionaries who travelled into the deepest, darkest areas of earth report that some people have the knowledge of the ten commandments, but did not know where it came from. Remember that the knowledge of God was written on everyone's heart, but most hearts turn into stone and, therefore, have no knowledge of God.

Besides, God is the judge NOT YOU and you have no knowledge of the second resurrection. So let God do the judging, not you.
---Steveng on 8/11/13


John 3:5

"Jesus answered, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
---char on 8/12/13


//God does not pour out His Spirit on everyone
Mark V//

John 1 9-12 The true light gives light (his spirit) to everyone (to all people)... v11 his own (his creation) did not receive him (reject Christ) v12 But to all who did receive him, who believed (accept Christ) gave the right to be children of God."

Sorry, I have incorrectly merged you and christian into the same predestination camp. For me, If John 3:16 does not apply to a person that sounds like hate. We have different meanings of the word "will" and "soverign." For me will is his desire which is to save his and all his creation. He is soverign because he knows what happens and can use our acceptance or rejection of him to his glory.
---Scott1 on 8/12/13


Brother Christian, what I was answering to is that I never made the comments I was accuse of. I have not used the passages in (Rom. 9:13) concerning election. There is just so much concerning election that I have not got to them.
People here accuse us on many things. They are looking for one mistake to defend their free wills. They will go to great extremes to oppose the will of God. It is pretty simple for me, if they are to depend on God for all things, they sure miss the mark by a whole lot. They did not depend on God for their salvation, they depended on themselves for being wiser and smarter then others. How stupid the others must be.
Everyday is an attack on the will of God.
---Mark_V. on 8/11/13


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Steven, you gave the names of many who you claim were saved without Jesus.
Here, let me help you,
In the Old Testament as well as the New T. people were saved by Grace through faith.
Second, Jesus Christ is God.
Then say,
There are millions of people who did not know God, but yet they lived godly lives." They were without God, how could they live godly lives? People without God are condemned already. Anything without faith is sin. All they did was sin. Then say "For it is written that christians will be raised at the first resurrection and that all the other people will be judged from the Book of Life according to what they did on earth" They are condemned already, they will be sentence.
---Mark_V. on 8/11/13


Brother MarkV in Christ, it seems Scott has bated you into denying the sovereignty of God when you replied him, "I've never said God hated anyone, not once."

Your reply was to his statement of "You say that it is because God hates them and predestined them to hell." What I would have simply said to Scott is, was it not God who declared, "As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." It is then a written fact and truth that God does hate and predestined those He hates to eternal damnation. Isn't that precisely the tone of Romans 9?

To which the apostle wrote, "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid."
---christan on 8/10/13


Moses was not saved by Jesus. Neither were Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Rebekah, Jacob, Rachel, Joseph, Hannah, David, Solomon, Elijah, Jonah, Noah and his family, Ruth, and all the other godly people and prophets.

There are millions of people who did not know God, but yet they lived godly lives. For it is written that christians will be raised at the first resurrection and that all the other people will be judged from the Book of Life according to what they did on earth which is the second resurrection. Blessed are those that rise in the first resurrection.

In other words, Mark V, let God be the judge and don't create a debate in which you answer your own blog.
---Steveng on 8/10/13


Scott 2: God does not pour out His Spirit on everyone. His Spirit is everywhere because He is Omniscient. His Spirit brings those who are dead in trespasses and sins, spiritually dead, to spiritual life. He grants them faith and repentance, He endwells them with His Spirit, He baptizes them and then seals them for assurance. This are the elect only, those who are called and saved, and will be saved in the future. God never said He hates all the lost. The lost get punished because they sinned against God. God did not make them sin, they sin because they love sin.
---Mark_V. on 8/10/13


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Mark 10:27 With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

This does not take away means choice to be saved, It lets us know that men cannot save them self God is able to save them, IF they CHOOSE TO LET HIM

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me

Psalms 95:8 Harden not your heart,

Jeremiah 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find [me], when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
---francis on 8/10/13


Eph.2:8-9, For by Grace are you saved through faith & not that of yourselves: it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast. The Holy Spirit convicts each heart of sin. It is then up to the "free will" of every person to decide if they accept or reject the free gift God is offering them. That is the ONLY part where free will plays a part in entering into heaven. Accepting or rejecting the free gift. Nothing more- nothing less.
---Reba on 8/10/13


Scott 1, you say,
"You say that it is because God hates them and predestined them to hell." I've never said God hated anyone, not once. Your not an honest Christian.
Then say,
""God so loved the world." John 3:16." Of course God loved what He created. Who are those who will not perish? Those who believe. Who will perish? Those that do not believe.
Then say,
"Which you have stated many times. "None seek after God, and God first loves us, etc"" I stated what Romans 3:11 and 1 John 4:19 says.
Then give,
"(see Abraham)to that pouring of the spirit in love Deut. 6:5" It is Moses in Deut 6:5 and nothing is mentioned of the Spirit of God.
---Mark_V. on 8/10/13


"And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, WHO THEN CAN BE SAVED?

But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, WITH MEN THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE, but with God all things are possible."
Matthew 19:24-26

Mankind has the "freewill" to decide for themselves if they want to be saved? Ya right. Didn't Christ explicitly declared, "WITH MEN THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE"? Freewillers are in unbelief of Christ's declaration, period.
---christan on 8/10/13


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Here is what scripture says:

Joshua 24:15 CHOOSE you this day whom ye will serve,

Deuteronomy 30:19 I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE life,

Proverbs 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not CHOOSE the fear of the LORD:

Isaiah 7:15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and CHOOSE the good.

Isaiah 56:4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and CHOOSE the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant

Psalms 54:6 I will freely sacrifice unto thee:
---francis on 8/9/13


No because they are unsaved.

The real question is why are they unsaved.

You say that it is because God hates them and predestined them to hell. Which is Calvinism incorrect because God says "God so loved the world..." John 3:16. The first chapter is him creating the world.

What you hear free willers say by your question is anybody can choose God by there own mind. This is also incorrect. Which you have stated many times. "None seek after God, and God first loves us, etc"

Therefore what is correct. God pours out his spirit onto all "so that none should perish" which satisfys john 3:16 and others. We then respond in faith (see Abraham)to that pouring of the spirit in love Deut. 6:5
---Scott1 on 8/9/13


B
Right. God has the number from the beginning. We are to find out place.
---Lawrence on 8/9/13


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