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Is Jesus God

Using the same Greek word (soter) 1 Timothy 4:10 calls the living God "Saviour" while in 2 Timothy 1:10 Jesus is "Saviour." Does this not mean they are the one and the same God?

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 ---Warwick on 8/12/13
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Warwick makes the false, unscriptural claim that Jesus can be blasphemed. Again trinitarian lies to support the trinity lie.

Jesus made it quite clear regarding blasphemy, 'Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven'- Matt.12:31,32 (NIV).

Jesus and the holy spirit are not one neither are they equal- the trinity is false.

'Say to the Israelites: 'If anyone curses his God, he will be held responsible, anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death.'- Lev.24:15,16 (NIV).

Thus, neither is Jesus 'the God' who can be blasphemed. Jesus is not Almighty God. Its as clear as day to those who believe.
---David8318 on 8/20/13


David, you falsely claim the Son of God cannot be blasphemed while Jesus actually says He can be blasphemed but it can be forgiven, but not so if against the Holy Spirit. You deviously misrepresent Scripture!

Of course the Holy Spirit and Jesus are not one and the same but two persons of the Godhead. You don't seem to grasp that, or more likely are forbidden to. You seem to imagine we believe there are 3 physical beings we call God, which is nonsense. You have been told what we believe many many times but continue to misrepresent our beliefs. Again deviousness.

How can any man blaspheme the Holy Spirit if it is an impersonal force?
---Warwick on 8/19/13


David, again you stretch the bounds of credulity.

You write "God's character, his qualities and personality, is an impersonal force," What utter nonsense. You would have us believe that what God is, at His core, is impersonal! This is, in itself, most likely blasphemy. Leviticus tells us blasphemy involves saying Gods name in an attitude of disrespect but you try to separate God from His character. You are a true son of a cult, and Jesus will judge you, not the stooges in Brooklyn.
---Warwick on 8/19/13


TheSeg,
Thank you for such a fantastic and enlightening post on this issue of truth.
---Elder on 8/19/13


1Jn_5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Can someone tell me how a force or power can bear record?

And while were at it, can you tell me why Christ would tell you to:
Teach all nations, baptizing them in these three names.
Clearly showing us the equality of their names!
And not just say the Father or the Father and the Son or just God?

Mat_28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Maybe just maybe, if you stop trying to understand how this can be.
You would see how!
Peace
---TheSeg on 8/19/13




Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective."

Vol. XIV [14], p. 299
---scott on 8/18/13

scott,

Many ECF wrote about the trinity way ahead before the Bible was put together(BTW it was the Catholic Church and her councils who gave us the Bible)
---Ruben on 8/19/13


Ruben
The New Catholic Encyclopedia:

"The formulation "one God in three Persons" was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective."

Vol. XIV [14], p. 299
---scott on 8/18/13

Really Scott,

You have already use this a few months ago and as JWs always do is leave out the rest. You accuse so many here about not writing the whole context but here you do just as they do, Go figure!
---Ruben on 8/19/13


The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him,

Mark 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Mark 13:32 But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

What scott is saying is that if Jesus is God, then God does not have to reveal anything to Jesus, the information should be known by them both instantainiously.
---francis on 8/19/13


Scott: What about this ,"Rev.1:8 & 11, I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come."?
---Adetunji on 8/19/13


Leviticus 24:14-16, Warwick reasons, 'Jesus says anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit (naming Him as per Leviticus) will not be forgiven'.

So by the same logic, as speaking against the son does not involve blasphemy, Jesus is therefore not God.

Warwick continues to avoid the glaring reality at Matthew 12:31,32: the Son and the holy spirit are not one. Blasphemy should be against both the HS and the Son, who apparently is 'God on earth'. This is not the case- thus the trinity is false. Both Lev.24:14-16 and Matt.12:31,32 prove Jesus is not God because speaking against Jesus does not involve blasphemy.

'how could man execute such impersonal force?' Warwick has lost the plot completely. Man commits blasphemy, not the HS!
---David8318 on 8/19/13




'It is therefore not an action against an impersonal force but criticism of God's character'- Warwick.

God's character, his qualities and personality, is an impersonal force, and yes can be blasphemed. God's character is not a person, neither is His holy spirit. Yet both can be blasphemed.

God himself can be blasphemed, his character can be blasphemed and his holy spirit. Holy spirit 'comes from the Father', thus speaking against it is blasphemous, just as speaking against his character is blasphemous- Ac.2:33.

If all three persons of the godhead were co-equal, then speaking against any part of the godhead (Father,Son,HS) would be blasphemous. But this is not so- the trinity is false- Matt.12:31,32.
---David8318 on 8/19/13


"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass, and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John.

"Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw."
---scott on 8/18/13


Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before Me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to His temple, [as Jesus] and there was a man sent from God, whose name [was] John. This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through Him might believe. "In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shined in the darkness, and the darkness did not understand it.God is light, He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew Him not.
---joseph on 8/18/13


David you makes no sense Biblically or otherwise.

As I have pointed out, as you acknowledge, Jesus says the Holy Spirit can be blasphemed-Matthew 12:31,32.. You claim the Holy Spirit is but a force therefore are saying an impersonal force can be blasphemed. Execution was the punishment for blasphemy-how could man execute such impersonal force?

You know, but cannot admit Leviticus 24:14-16 says blasphemy involves the pronunciation of God's name. It is therefore not an action against an impersonal force but criticism of God's character, using His name. In Matthew 12:31,32 Jesus says anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit (naming Him as per Leviticus) will not be forgiven. The Holy Spirit is therefore God.
---Warwick on 8/19/13


Its not surprising your apostate 'Chruch Fathers' squabbled over the issue in the 4th century. It wasn't until 381AD, nearly 300 years after the Bible writing finished for you guys to declare the holy spirit 'God'. Something the Bible does not!
---David8318 on 8/16/13

Really:

ECF many of them wrote about the HS being God, it is you guys who are confuse...
---Ruben on 8/18/13


Scott, you give the impression of one who reads just the first few words without even completing the sentence to get the context. This is precisely what Revelation 1:1 says,

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass, and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

and guess what, without verse 2, it's not complete, which says, "Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw." So, who's the "he" Revelation speaks of, Jesus or the apostle John?

Christ never wrote the Gospels, the apostles did and it was all about Him.
---christan on 8/18/13


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"The trinity came a long time after the Bible was written. The 'apostasy' had arrived" Ruben

Ruben, are you not Catholic?

The New Catholic Encyclopedia:

"The formulation "one God in three Persons" was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective."

Vol. XIV [14], p. 299
---scott on 8/18/13


Even christians are able to save the unsaved.
---Steveng on 8/18/13


You know it get to me, the ways of the wise!
The infinite wisdom of foolish men, who say this cant be, because I dont believe it!

This is to all you that are so wise!
You stand there and say Christ the Son of God, didnt know!
But know this, its only because He(Christ) didnt tell you.
As far as the things Christ does know, know this!
You are trying to measure the universe with a yardstick!

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him, and without him was not anything made that was made.

All things were made by him!
Peace
---TheSeg on 8/18/13


'you would agree that we men are not good'- Marc.



In reality, at Mark 10:18 Jesus is saying he is not God.
---David8318 on 8/13/13

Agree, Jesus is saying he is not God the Father!
---Ruben on 8/18/13


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David* The Council of Ephesus in 431AD decreed Mary as the 'Mother of God'.

Read Luke 1:43

David* Then in 451AD, at the Council of Chalcedon, it was decreed that no further debate on the matter would take place- on penalty of death.

There were groups even back then trying to make the same claim JW' are doing today.

David*The trinity came a long time after the Bible was written. The 'apostasy' had arrived- 2Thess.2:3.

Really ECF like Ignatius, Justin Martyr and others wrote about Jesus being God the Son!

"For Our God, Jesus Christ...(Letter to the Ephesians 1 (AD 110)






The trinity came a long time after the Bible was written. The 'apostasy' had arrived- 2Thess.2:3.
---Ruben on 8/18/13


"Revelation 1:1 does not imply that God gave any sort of revelation to Christ but that through Christ..." Christan

Really?

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him..." Rev 1:1 KJV
---scott on 8/18/13


"Christ didn't know or he didn't say?" TheSeg

Well, he said that he didn't know (Matt 24:36, Mark 13:32) and I take the Lord at his word.
---scott on 8/18/13


If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
What did they talk about?

All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father,
neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Christ didn't know or he didn't say?
It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
Peace
---TheSeg on 8/18/13


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"If equal to God and "one in thought" why, in his heavenly glory, did the "Revelation" need to be "given" to Jesus by God?" Scott

Revelation 1:1 does not imply that God gave any sort of revelation to Christ but that through Christ, it was revealed to us as John wrote in his Gospel of Jesus Christ, "For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."

That was the revelation from God that through His Son we know that God is indeed merciful and gracious. More importantly as Paul wrote, "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

Isn't that a blessed revelation?
---christan on 8/18/13


"One, not only in substance but in thought also." Warwick

1. Are you saying that Jesus did not have or share the thoughts of God while on earth?

If not then please defend your assertion that the father and the son are "one in thought."


2. The Revelation (1:1) was given to Jesus Christ after his death and ascension to heaven, not while a man on earth who had "emptied himself."

If equal to God and "one in thought" why, in his heavenly glory, did the "Revelation" need to be "given" to Jesus by God?
---scott on 8/17/13


David8318, your constant denial and rejection of the Word being God is truly astounding and brings to life what Christ warns His elects,

"Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there, believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before." Matthew 24:23-25 - yes, we've been told by Christ about your kind.

It's then very sobering, for we are also told that this very act of yours is predestined by God for His glory, "...even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed."
---christan on 8/17/13


Gee, Scott I wonder if it has anything to do with "who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross?"

You think?

Jesus said "I and the Father are one" and they picked up stones to kill Him! because He was claiming to be God, thereby using the name of God disrespectfully, which is the definition of blasphemy. Do you say He was blaspheming? Or was He simply stating truth? Can you Scott say, likewise, I and the Father are one with the same meaning?
---Warwick on 8/17/13


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David, you wrote "Note the difference between Jesus and 'the Holy Spirit'. If they are one and the same, blasphemy against the HS should also be blasphemy against Jesus...."

What blind arrogance you demonstrate, telling Jesus He has it wrong. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are not "one and the same" as you falsely claim but 1 God manifest in 3 persons. But God does not exist as 3 separate physical bodies, because God is Spirit, and Jesus is God's physical presence on earth.

No Biblically literate person confuses the Father with the Son, nor the Holy Spirit with the Father, or....
---Warwick on 8/17/13


David8318:

The doctrine of trinity sayS the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all God, but they are NOT one and the same. The Father didn't descend at Pentecost. The Spirit didn't die on the cross. The Son did not beget the father.

My hand, my foot, and my eye are ALL me - yet none of them is the same as any of the others.

So, the Hand of God IS God (at least part of God), it is not the same as God. In the same way, the Holy Spirit of God (i.e. of the Father) IS God, but this is NOT the same as actually BEING identical to the Father.
---StrongAxe on 8/17/13


'How can anyone blaspheme against an impersonal force?'- Warwick.

Regarding blasphemy, Jesus said, 'Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven'- Matt.12:31,32 (NIV).

Neither Matt.12:32 or Mark 3:29 say the holy spirit is 'God'.

Note the difference between Jesus and 'the Holy Spirit'. If they are one and the same, blasphemy against the HS should also be blasphemy against Jesus. They are clearly not equal- the trinity is false.

'Therefore (Jesus)... having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit...'- Acts 2:33.

The HS is from God (not is God). Blasphemy against the HS is direct opposition to the will of God.
---David8318 on 8/17/13


"One, not only in substance but in thought also."

One in thought?

How can that be when Jesus doesn't know "the day and hour..." (Matt 24:36) and, after his death and ascension to heaven, had information (thoughts, a revelation) given to him that he didn't previously possess? Rev. 1:1
---scott on 8/17/13


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David!
//(I agree God is a Spirit and that God is Holy)... without question.//
You really want me to believe that, right?

1Co 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the (Spirit of God) calleth Jesus accursed: and that (no man can say that Jesus is the Lord,) (but by the Holy Ghost.)

1Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, (but the same Spirit.)

1Co 12:7 But the (manifestation of the Spirit) is given to (every man to profit withal.)

1Co 12:11 (But all these worketh that one and the (selfsame Spirit), dividing to every man severally as ((he)) will.)

Hopefully David one day soon, Peace!
---TheSeg on 8/17/13


Gordon I agree, that Jesus and the Father are one, not only in substance but in thought also.
---Warwick on 8/16/13


"where in any of the verses you cite does it say the holy spirit is God?" David8318

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not, and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes, lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed."
---christan on 8/16/13


'Are you implying that Paul was "still a Pharisee" '- christan.

No I'm calling your understanding Pharisaical. The Pharisee's, like you, persistently claim Jesus' was equating himself with God. Jesus did not make himself equal with God, neither did he break the Sabbath. Both accusations are lies of the Pharisee's perpetuated by you and trinitarianism! (Jo.5:18,19)

Paul doesn't say Jesus is equal with God. You cite Phil.2:5,6 from your trinitarian version. However, Paul taught Jesus 'did not consider equality with God a thing to be grasped'. Verse 5 counsels us to 'imitate Christ'. I suppose you trinitarians also consider it 'not robbery' perhaps your right to be 'equal with God'? You teach what is blasphemous!
---David8318 on 8/17/13


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David, you say the Holy Spirit is but an impersonal force however Jesus says "but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin" Mark 3:29. How can anyone blaspheme against an impersonal force? Can we blaspheme against gravity?

Remember this is Jesus speaking and He condemns blasphemy against the person of the Holy Spirit. Leviticus 24:14-16 plainly states that blasphemy is a sin against the Name of God. It involves an actual pronunciation of God's name. Therefore when Jesus says blasphemy against the Holy will never be forgiven He is calling the Holy Spirit God!

By refusing to accept Jesus and the Holy Spirit as God you committ blasphemy.
---Warwick on 8/17/13


Mat_1:18 she was found with child (of the Holy Ghost. )

Mat_1:20 for that which is conceived in her (is of the Holy Ghost.)

Luk_1:35 (The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee,) and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: (therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.)

of the Holy Ghost!
is of the Holy Ghost!
shall be called the Son of God!

And again:
Joh_4:23 for the Father(God) seeketh such to worship him(The Father.)
The very next line!
Joh_4:24 God(The Father) is a Spirit: and they that worship him(the Father) must worship him(The Father) in spirit and in truth.

Who do you think this is talking about?
How are you looking at this?
---TheSeg on 8/16/13


The Seq- where in any of the verses you cite does it say the holy spirit is God? If you think they do, you're kidding yourself.

I agree God is a spirit and that God is holy... without question. But where does the Bible say the holy spirit is God, or "God the Holy Spirit/Ghost"?

Come on, you guys say the trinity is the cornerstone of Christianity! And yet you cannot find one scripture that explicitly states the holy spirit is God!

Its not surprising your apostate 'Chruch Fathers' squabbled over the issue in the 4th century. It wasn't until 381AD, nearly 300 years after the Bible writing finished for you guys to declare the holy spirit 'God'. Something the Bible does not!
---David8318 on 8/16/13


When JESUS came to Earth He came as both Man and GOD. Since there is only one GOD. Humans had to figure out what this meant. We came to understand the Trinity. One GOD but three persons.

Isa 43:10 Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I [am] he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Since all gods but the LORD are false. We have to understand that JESUS emptied himself of his GODness in some form we do not understand. So though He and his Father are equal he willingly gave that up to save us.
---Samuelbb7 on 8/16/13


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-the Bible doesn't call the HS 'God'.
David8318

I dont think you can say that! Christ said:
Joh_4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is,
(when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth:)
for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Joh_4:24 God is a Spirit:
(and they that worship (him) must worship (him) in spirit and in truth.)
This declares God is a Spirit!

Mar_10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Psa_99:9 Exalt the LORD our God, and worship at his holy hill, for the LORD our God is holy.
These declare he is Holy!

I just cant see how you can separate the two!
Peace
---TheSeg on 8/16/13


"It is the spirit of the Pharisee's that claim Jesus is equal with God." David8318

Are you implying that Paul was "still a Pharisee" when He wrote Philippians 2:5,6? As for your understanding of John 14:28 when Jesus said, "the Father is greater than I AM", you forgot that Christ (who's God!) was manifesting in the flesh when He spoke those words. And why not anyways, for He is the Son of God, what else was He to call His Father?

Now you see how erroneous your understanding of "the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us" is? You just can't for your life believe that before Christ came in the flesh, "the Word was with God, and the Word was God", can you?
---christan on 8/16/13


1Jn_5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word(Christ), and the Holy Ghost: and (these three are one.)

Are one!
Peace
---TheSeg on 8/16/13


'Did they have some OTHER kind of trinitarianism'- strongaxe.

Who knows? But arguments raged among RCC apostates between 325-381 as to the identity of the holy spirit because the Bible doesn't call the HS 'God'. It seems to stop the fledgling RCC fracturing, Basil the Bishop of Caesarea and others at the Council of Constantinople 381AD declared the HS 'a person', thus deifying the HS as part of the 'God-head'.

The Council of Ephesus in 431AD decreed Mary as the 'Mother of God'.

Then in 451AD, at the Council of Chalcedon, it was decreed that no further debate on the matter would take place- on penalty of death.

The trinity came a long time after the Bible was written. The 'apostasy' had arrived- 2Thess.2:3.
---David8318 on 8/16/13


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Warwick, God the Son is the Saviour, as we all know Him as.

Yet, God the Father is also called as a Saviour, for it was He Who sent His only begotten Son to the World to save them through His Son.

It was the Father's Will to send us a Saviour, making Him, also, the Saviour.

The Father and Son work in concert, with the Blessed Spirit, from the same Heart.
---Gordon on 8/16/13


(Matthew 20:23)
And He said unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of My cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with, but to sit on My right hand and on My left is not Mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared by My Father.

If Jesus is God the Father why did he say this?

....Who did Jesus praying to?

....Who did Jesus cry out to when he was on the cross?
---David on 8/16/13


Philippians 2:5,6- christan.

The Pharisee's made the claim Jesus was both breaking the Sabbath and making himself equal with God. God's word says differently:

'Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped'- NIV.

'who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped'- ASV.

'who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped'- RSV.

Jesus said, 'the Father is greater than I AM'- John 14:28.

It is the spirit of the Pharisee's that claim Jesus is equal with God.
---David8318 on 8/16/13


Marc's pernicious reasoning clear. Marc says:

'...the verses surrounding Mark 10:18 concern moral goodness and discuss divorce, murder, adultery etc.'

So according to Marc's wicked reasoning, Jesus is saying "No one" is good concerning 'murder, divorce, adultery etc...' Marc twists what Jesus is saying so that Jesus words are negative and condemnatory- we're all doomed to commit murder and pillage!

Of course, Jesus is not promoting this wicked trinitarian spin. Of course there are good people who do not do any of those things... Joseph and Barnabas are among those the Bible says are good.

Jesus was responding to a man who called him 'Good Teacher'. In this respect- 'No one is good- except God alone'.
---David8318 on 8/16/13


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"Jesus DID NOT make himself equal with God." David8318

Seriously, is that what Scripture says? You say things that are contradictory to the Scriptures, demonstrating your complete ignorance of the Word.

" Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God" Philippians 2:5,6 - and you say otherwise.

Your constant denial that Christ is God demonstrates your spirit as one of the Pharisee. What's worse for you is Christ himself declared, "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM." John 8:58 - can there be any statement as explicit that He is God?
---christan on 8/15/13


So were Joseph and Barnabas 'good'? Marc says, yes they were. So the issue at Mark 10:18 is not 'God is good' and everyone else is not.

Jesus said at John 7:16, 'My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me'. So what Jesus taught in the verses around Mark 10:18 (divorce murder etc), 'is not my own. It comes from him who sent me'

Thus it makes perfect sense why Jesus would take issue being called 'Good Teacher'. Who is the 'Good Teacher'? That's the issue at Mark 10:18.

Good though they were, what Jesus taught was not his own, but 'came from him who sent Jesus'. The one who sent Jesus is the most excellent & distiguished 'Good Teacher'.

'No one is good...', Jesus in effect is saying he is not God.
---David8318 on 8/15/13


Are you of inferior substance to your father...?'- Warwick.

Is Warwick also his father? Is Warwick also his father because they are the same substance?

This would be laughable if the issues were not so serious. So according to Warwick, someone being of the same substance as another makes them one and the same!? Jesus being the same substance as God makes Jesus God in the same way I am of the same substance as my Father, therefore I am my father?!

I am not my father, Warwick is not his father... Jesus is not his Father.

Substance and nature ie.metaphysics- are the bedrock principles of pagan Neo-Platonic philosophy. Warwick has taken this trinitarian philosophical psycho-babble to new levels.
---David8318 on 8/15/13


Warwick says, 'the Jews had accused Jesus of Sabbath breaking... of which He had done'. This is Pharisaical reasoning and apostate.

Jesus DID NOT break the Sabbath. Jesus DID NOT make himself equal with God. The Pharisee's deceitfully claimed he did! Jesus reasoned that some activities were lawful on the Sabbath (Matt.12:1-8), and stated 'So it is lawful to do a fine thing on the sabbath'- Matt.12:12. Jesus also defended himself against the false charge of equality with God- Jo.5:19

Warwick says 'But their charges were false', but then agrees with the Pharisee's that Jesus was equating himself with God!

So who is right? Warwick and the Pharisee's or Jesus?

Quotation marks in John 5:18 are irrelevant.
---David8318 on 8/15/13


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David, again you have it wrong. If John were reporting what the Jews said there would be quote marks. John was pointing out that the Jews had accused Jesus of Sabbath breaking and equating Himself with God, both of which He had done, both of which were punishable by death. But their charges were false as Jesus is equal with God and says He "..is Lord even of the Sabbath" Mark 2:28.

Speaking in terms men could understand Jesus called God His Father thereby claiming equality with God. He full well knows that a human son is equal in substance to his human father. Are you of inferior substance to your father David?
---Warwick on 8/15/13


David conveniently omits context and the surrounding verses explaining why someone was called good.

1. Joseph was "good" because "he had not consented to [the counsel's] decision and deed." (v.51)
2. Barnabas was "good" because he was "full of the Holy Spirit and of faith"(v. 24)

On the contrary, the verses surrounding Mark 10:18 concern moral goodness and discuss divorce, murder, adultery etc.

It makes no sense Jesus would take issue with someone praising his teaching. After all, he allowed people to praise him for much more. Clearly the man's referring to Jesus' innate goodness (agathos) and is what Jesus wanted the man to examine.

David, is Jesus good or not good?
---Marc on 8/15/13


David8318:

You wrote: It's a matter of historical fact that when pagan Roman Emperor Constantine and his apostate sycophant Athanasius dreamed up the trinity dogma in 325AD (Nicaea), the HS wasn't included in the 'God-head'. It wasn't until the Council of Constantinople in 381AD that these apostates eventually deified the HS.

I'm confused. If the Holy Spirit was deified in 381, then what was going on between 325 and 381, since without the Holy Spirit being God, it couldn't have been what we call trinitarianism today? Did they have some OTHER kind of trinitarianism (for example, what the Muhammad believed about what Christians believe, i.e. Father and Son and Mother)?
---StrongAxe on 8/14/13


"Jesus never said he was God" David8318

"I and my Father are one." John 10:30

Can you dare say you are one with the Father? Can anyone dare say? Obviously not!

Only Jesus Christ can ever make such declaration. Simply because Christ is God. You forget, God is Spirit and obviously Christ isn't referring to anything else with regards to His Oneness with the Father other than He too is Spirit as with the Father. This is explicitly confirmed in John 1:1,

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD."

There's no confusion with regards to Christ's deity unless you're one of the unbelievers.
---christan on 8/14/13


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Being called 'Savior' and therefore 'must be one and the same' is a trinitarian strawman.

No where is the holy spirit called 'God' or 'Savior'. No trinitarian here has quoted a scripture to show the holy spirit is 'God' or 'Savior'. They can't because the HS is neither (cue the spurious trinitarian verse- 1Jo.5:7).

It's a matter of historical fact that when pagan Roman Emperor Constantine and his apostate sycophant Athanasius dreamed up the trinity dogma in 325AD (Nicaea), the HS wasn't included in the 'God-head'. It wasn't until the Council of Constantinople in 381AD that these apostates eventually deified the HS.

Christians have no issue with both Jehovah and Jesus as 'Savior'. It certainly doesn't prove the trinity.
---David8318 on 8/14/13


'His claims... were punishable by death, but only if Jesus was not God'- Warwick.

You've got the wrong end of the stick. The Jews were trying to frame Jesus' death because in their distorted view (deliberate or not) they claimed Jesus was making himself EQUAL to God- not that he was God. Jesus never said he was God, only that God was "My Father". This was enough for those apostate Jews to draw wrong conclusions he was blasphemously making himself equal to God.

But Jesus was not making a blasphemous statement of equality with God and defended himself against this blasphemous charge in verse 19.

Jesus saying "My Father" is enough to confuse apostate Jews and trinitarians alike.
---David8318 on 8/14/13


StrongAxe consider Isaiah 43:11 "I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no saviour." This demonstrates your human saviour is not the saviour in the spiritual salvation sense which God here uses it. In Timothy both God and Jesus are called the Saviour (in the salvation sense) which in the light of Isaiah 43:11 means that God and Jesus both being the one and only Saviour are the one and the same person. Your Obama example is not relevant.
---Warwick on 8/14/13


1 Timothy 3:16 'God was manifest in the flesh...'- quoted by francis.

The Codex Sinaiticus, believed to be one of the oldest original-language manuscripts of the Greek Scriptures assisted scholars during the 1800's to uncover errors that crept into later Greek manuscripts.

For example, the reference to Jesus at 1Tim.3:16 in Sinaiticus reads: 'He was made manifest in the flesh.' In place of 'he' the majority of then-known manuscripts showed an abbreviation for 'God,' made by a small alteration of the Greek word for 'he.' However, Sinaiticus was made many years before any Greek manuscript reading 'God.'

Thus, Sinaiticus revealed there had been a later corruption of the text, evidently introduced to support the trinity.
---David8318 on 8/14/13


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"And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me, Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more, Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged." John 16:8-11

"Unto you therefore which believe He is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed." 1 Peter 2:7,8
---christan on 8/14/13


---RICHARDC on 8/13/13

Great verses but what is your conclusion.
---Scott1 on 8/14/13


"Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God." (1 John 4:15)

So, the Bible says that if we confess that Jesus is the "Son of God", then God abides in us and we in God.

So, why are people so busy with if Jesus is "God", instead of confessing as the Bible says, that Jesus is "the Son of God"?

There is "one God and Father of all", we have in Ephesians 4:6. And Jesus is His Son. Jesus is not His own Father! (c:

What matters is how Jesus is > "as He is, so are we in this world." (in 1 John 4:17) How are we becoming because of being "as He is" "in this world"?
---willie_c: on 8/14/13


Isaiah 43:3 - I even, I am the Lord: And beside me there no Saviour,

Hosea 13:4 - Yet I am The Lord thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me, for there is no saviour beside me,

Titus 2:13 - Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ,
---RICHARDC on 8/13/13


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David the JW would have us believe Jesus is not God and (regarding John ch. 5) claims John was only reporting what the Jews said. However John was actually reporting the Jews understandable reaction to Jesus working upon the Sabbath (vs.16) and calling God his Father (vs.17) making himself equal with God. The Jews wished to execute Jesus because of His actions and claims, as such were punishable by death, but only if Jesus was not God, as they His mortal enemies, would not accept. "There are none so blind as those who will not see."

That both God and Jesus are Saviour makes Jesus God but David referred to someone in the OT described as a saviour, but this is irrelevant as only Jesus can save us from our sins.
---Warwick on 8/13/13


'you would agree that we men are not good'- Marc.

Your presumption is incorrect.

'Now there was a man named Joseph... a good and upright man'- Luke23:50. See also Mt.12:35, 25:21,23 & Ac.11:24 (where Barnabas is described as a 'good man').

Thus, the issue at Mark 10:18 is not of moral goodness.

Jesus was responding to a man who called him 'Good Teacher.' Since the man called him 'Good Teacher,' Jesus is responding specifically to his teaching. Jesus clarifies who is 'good' in that sense by saying, 'No one is good but God alone.' Indeed, at John 7:16, 'Jesus answered, 'My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me.'

In reality, at Mark 10:18 Jesus is saying he is not God.
---David8318 on 8/13/13


"save" is not exclusive. If you pull someone out of a burning building, you save their lives, therefore, you are their "savior" in this one context, which does not conflict with God or Jesus also being "savior", and it doesn't mean you are God or Jesus.

The blog question assumes faulty logic. "God is savior. Jesus is savior. Therefore Jesus is God" is as much as a non-sequitur as "Obama is a Democrat. Hilary is a Democrat. Therefore, Obama is Hilary".
---StrongAxe on 8/13/13


Deuteronomy 6:4 - Hear, O Israel , The Lord our God is One Lord,

Ephesians 4:5 - One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism,

Romans 5,21 - That sin hath resign unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life
by Jesus Christ our Lord,

John 14:9 - Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you , and yet hast thou not known me, Phillip ? he has seen me hath seen the father: and how sayest thou then, Shew us the father?
---RICHARDC on 8/13/13


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David (and his soul buddy Scott),

In a one-off, particular situation a man comes to Jesus and, addressing him as a mere man, calls him "good teacher". Jesus asks him why he called him 'good' because, as Jesus went on to elaborate, only God is good.

David, you would agree that we men are not good. So, tell me, David, is Jesus the man, good or not? (Please don't cherry pick and thus avoid the conversation.)
---Marc on 8/13/13


Yes Jesus is God. He is part of the trinity Godhead. Jesus is the fleshy manifestation of the Son. The Son is not a biological term in the sense of parent-child relationship but of a planner-doer relationship. "I and the Father are one, You have seen me you have seen the Father" example God the Father wants to free Israel from Egypt thus the Son comes to Moses as a burning bush, or a warrior to Joshua, King of Kings to John in Rev, fourth man in furnace, with many others
---Scott1 on 8/13/13


There is no true doctrine that makes Christ any less than God at all times.

If Christ was just a man, then he was not God.
If Christ was created by God he could not be God.
If Christ putting on humanity diminishes his deity, then he is no longer God.
If Christ could not exercise every attribute of God at all times then he was never fully God.
If Christ is not God then the Bible is wrong, Christianity is a farce, and there is no salvation from sin.
If Christ is not God, then our faith is vain at best and sinful at worst.
Christ is God, and has always been God.
For in Christ dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. Col 2:9

The less Christ is God, the less Christian you are.
---michael_e on 8/13/13


"...he that hath seen me hath seen the Father" John 14:9

As clear as daylight that Christ is indeed God. That's the very reason why the Jews were so busy trying to stone Christ. Not for anything but, "The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy, and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God." John 10:33
---christan on 8/12/13


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John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

1 Timothy 3:16 God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Philippians 2:5-7 Christ Jesus: being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:...was made in the likeness of men:

John 1:14: the Word was made flesh,
1 Timothy 3:16 God was manifest in the flesh
Philippians 2:5-7 Christ Jesus: being in the form of God,..was made in the likeness of men:

CASE CLOSED!!
---francis on 8/12/13


Bryan, do you think that when John 1 says, "The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us," that this is merely a metaphor for saying that Jesus is the perfect embodiment of everything the Bible says?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/12/13


Funny how the Jews understood what he was actually saying!
Joh_10:30 I and my Father are one.

Joh_8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Joh_8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: (see!)

Col_1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Isa_9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Yes! Peace
---TheSeg on 8/12/13


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