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Evolution Versus Creationism

There has been a long discussion about evolution vs creation, most people here agreeing that only creation can be correct.
When Galileo and Copernicul put out the idea that the earth moves around the sun, they were also seen as heretics. Are you sure we will not have to change our mind?

Moderator - Even if I wasn't a Christian, I would believe in creationism. Evolution is a fairytale. It just takes only a little studying to draw that conclusion.

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 ---Jennifer on 8/20/13
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'Elohim is Almighty God either somewhat unhinged, talking to Himself...'- Warwick.

The only person unhinged is Warwick. God is either unhinged or as Warwick admits, Elohim (God) is talking to 'God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit'. God's throne is mighty busy, all 3 Gods talking to eachother. Warwick is clearly teaching false doctrines of polytheism through the pagan trinity dogma.

Rather than admit the fact that singular verbs are applied to Elohim in Genesis, which is why Greek translators of LXX use 'ho Theos' ('God' SINGULAR) thus making God a single identity and not exclusive of the 'us' at Gen.1:26, Warwick would rather call God 'unhinged' or push polytheism.

Warwick has crawlled into the trinity coffin.
---David8318 on 8/29/13


Cluny, that was an intelligent comment... not. I see you've dragged the glory of Jesus Christ to new depths.

Again on the matter of 'elohim' in the Genesis account, trinitarians jump all over the plurality of 'elohim', claiming this is proof God is 'more than one person' (francis). They ignore the fact that verbs associated with Elohim are singular- indicating Elohim is not 'more than one person'.

This fact is seen in the Greek Septuagint (Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures). Greek doesn't have a plural of 'majesty or excellence' as the word 'elohim' provides for Hebrew. Thus, in Genesis, the translators of LXX used 'ho Theos' ('God': SINGULAR) as the equivalent of 'elohim'.

Just another nail in the trinity coffin.
---David8318 on 8/28/13


David your WTS indoctrination has blinded you to Scriptural truth. You do lie continually pushing the idea that Trinitarians believe in 3 man/Gods sitting on a throne/s. Again, again, again, wrong, God is invisible, eternal, Spirit. However we have Jesus who is called God with us who told His followers that seeing Him is seeing God. But you cannot see Him, you are forbidden to do so.

At Genesis 1:26 and 3:22 God does use "us" and "our" and you say "Elohim is one identity within the 'us' group." You are close but also far away as Elohim is Almighty God either somewhat unhinged, talking to Himself, or talking to God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, the other members of the Godhead.
---Warwick on 8/28/13


\\But far from the truth, and no where near what I believe.\\

Quite right, David.

What you believe is far from the truth.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/28/13


'Elohim (the Godhead) with one member speaking to the other members'- Warwick.

One God speaking to all the other God's? There's a mighty fine pantheon of God's Warwick has at Gen.1:26. But far from the truth, and no where near what I believe.

Warwick, francis and trinitarians as a whole believe the 'us' at Gen.1:26 is God, or rather, God's speaking to eachother. This is clearly polytheism.

The truth is, Moses being monotheist, used singular verbs with reference to Elohim. The 'us' therefore, is not exclusively Elohim (or a polytheist 'Godhead' as Warwick believes). Rather, Elohim is one identity within the 'us' group.

Its laughable how Warwick resorts to the 'you're a liar' approach. It means he's lost the argument.
---David8318 on 8/28/13




Regarding this blog, closely contending the evolution fairytale, is the trinity fairytale.

Trinitarians francis and Warwick cannot answer this question: If the Word 'was God', why is blasphemously speaking against Jesus forgiven (Mt.12:31,32), but not forgiven when against God (Lev.24:16)? Aren't they one and the same? Is the Word God or not?

Rather than conform to Greek grammar and context, trinitarians use and abuse the scriptures: Eg, John does not identify Jesus as God at 20:28, neither eternal (1:15,30,3:31) self-existent (1:4,5:26) omnipresent (1:47-49), omniscient (2:25,16:30, 21:17), omnipotent (1:3,2:19,11:1-44), or sovereign (5:21,22,27-29,10:18). Jesus is always reliant upon the one greater than he- Jo.5:19 & 14:28.
---David8318 on 8/28/13


Trav, I am certain you were born after the Spirit, but cannot make up my mind which one. Johnny Walker maybe?

---Warwick on 8/27/13

Have partaken of more noble than JW. Usually to my regret.

The reference was your evasion tactics, and regarding your introverted pysche to impress us with your commie french dip trips.

You personally bragged about your nudist days ....thinking Christians here wanted to here this personal insanity.
(New Zealand maybe) one would expect you in your favorite spot, communist france.
Do you eat mutton there or just at home.

Joh_10:13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
---Trav on 8/28/13


Well, logic tells me that our Lord died in 33ce and John penned the Revelation in 95-96ce
How was he "Firstborn from the dead" before he died?
Scott

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him(Christ)
(Was John there when God give it? Did he witness the giving? No!)
Christ showed it unto his servants!
(John being one of them, and penned it as you say in whatever year)

All things were ordained by God from the beginning!
So, //How was he "Firstborn from the dead" before he died?//
It was ordained by God, this not clear?

Even your own dead is ordained by God!
My own dead, everybody!

If God says a tree will live three years and die!
Quests what!
Peace
---TheSeg on 8/28/13


Sorry Jennifer, It looks like the hijackers have won.

Perhaps the Mods will allow you to repost this blog, and Scott/David can post a separate "I hate 2 of the 3 Persons of the Triune Godhead" blog.




---jerry6593 on 8/28/13


Scott, Philippians 2:7 "but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men." Hebrews 2:9 echoes this, telling us Jesus was for a time in lowly estate (position, not essence) but even in this position deserved equal honour as the Father John 5:23. Hebrews 9 continues we see "Jesus, crowned with glory and honour because of the suffering of death, " As Scripture shows His apostles wondered because Jesus (though being God) did not come as the expected conquering King to free them from the Romans. He made Himself nothing, becoming a servant, obedient even unto death Philippians ch.2:6-8.

And you wonder why, in this self-imposed servanthood He was not privy to all of Gods counsel!
---Warwick on 8/27/13




I think God evolved our bodies from the dust of the ground. When got the way he like it he breathed his life into it, turn man into a living being. and he PLACED us in the garden of Eden.
---Bryan on 8/27/13


Scott, Regarding Zechariah 12:10 NIV, NLT, ESV, NASB, KJV, Holman, ISV, Jubilee, NET, God's Word, AKJV, ASV, Douay-Rheims, Darby, ERV, Websters, Weymouth, WEB, and Youngs translations all have Jehovah saying (with differing grammar) they will look upon me, the one they pierced. They are therefore saying that Jesus who is coming in the clouds (Revelation 1:7, Mark 13:26), who was pierced is, as Zechariah 12:10 attests, God Himself.

As recorded in Revelation 1:7 we read "I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty. However in 22:13 Jesus says "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End." plainly saying He is God Almighty.
---Warwick on 8/27/13


"By your own logic and nothing more!" TheSeg

Well, logic tells me that our Lord died in 33ce and John penned the Revelation in 95-96ce with references made to congregations (churches) that did not exist until long after Christ was gone.

Additionally if he is referred to as "Firstborn from the dead" in this Revelation, are you suggesting that this is a reference to Christ before he died and was resurrected?

How was he "Firstborn from the dead" before he died?
---scott on 8/27/13


By your own logic and nothing more!

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


Luk_10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
What do we do now, scott?

//Christ is also referred to (Rev 1:5) as "Firstborn from the dead."//
Also the last!
And what!

Your logic is floored!
Peace
---TheSeg on 8/27/13


"Question based upon belief that Jesus and the Father are not equal." Warwick

And he questions David's honesty?

On the "Is Jesus God" thread (started by Warwick) he said: "Gordon I agree, that Jesus and the Father are one, not only in substance but in thought also." 8/16/13

To which I responded:

"One in thought?


How can that be when Jesus doesn't know "the day and hour..." (Matt 24:36) and, after his death and ascension to heaven, had information (thoughts, a revelation) given to him that he didn't previously possess? Rev. 1:1"
8/17/13

Did he share all of God's thoughts while on earth and then later in heaven...or not?
---scott on 8/27/13


"Where does it say after his death and ascension to heaven?"

Rev. 1:4"...the seven churches which are in Asia..."

What Christian "churches" or congregations existed while Christ walked the Earth or before his death and ascension?

Christ is also referred to (Rev 1:5) as "Firstborn from the dead."
---scott on 8/27/13


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David, by now those who blog or read here know you couldn't lie straight in bed! Polytheism:the belief in or worship of more than one god: Oxford Dictionary. Anyone who has even casually followed what Trinitarians have written will know we believe in One God. To call us polytheists is a lie because you are not ignorant of the truth simply choose to ignore it.

Interestingly, having read your multiplicity of blogs over the years I note you have God 1, Jehovah, God 2, "The Mighty God" (Isaiah 9:6), and 3, a god (John 1:1). Maybe there are others? By admission you are a polytheist.

If I am misrepresenting your position and you do not have an Almighty God, A Mighty God, and a god, you are free to show where I am wrong.
---Warwick on 8/27/13


Trav, I am certain you were born after the Spirit, but cannot make up my mind which one. Johnny Walker maybe?

I do not know of any nude beach in France, and have obviously never visited it. I find it interesting that it is on your mind. Longing for such a place maybe? Down boy!
---Warwick on 8/27/13


David you write "From the grammar alone, we can only conclude that Elohim is one identity in the 'us' group and God is speaking on behalf of that group." I cannot believe you have written that. You are so close to the truth. This verse demonstrates the workings of Elohim (the Godhead) with one member speaking to the other members, as we have been telling you for years, just as Scripture says. Be careful, the WTS is watching you with concern. They are picking up rocks.
---Warwick on 8/27/13


'man was not made in the likeness of an angel'- Warwick.

And man was not made or created in the likeness of a triune God.

God is not talking to himself at Ge.1:26 or to "other members" of a polytheist Godhead as trinitarians believe. The 'us' are not multiple-creators.

God was no doubt talking to his Son, the pre-human Jesus who is 'the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature' (Col.1:15 KJV). Jesus is God's only begotten son (Jo.1:10,14), thus all other things were created "through" Jesus. As Jesus was already 'the image of God' by the time God came to create man, God could rightly say to his Son, 'Let us make man in our image'. However, God is the only creator at Gen.1:26,27.
---David8318 on 8/27/13


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The Revelation (1:1) was given to Jesus Christ after his death and ascension to heaven, not while a man on earth who had "emptied himself."
scott

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, (to shew unto his servant(s)) things which must shortly come to pass,

Where does it say after his death and ascension to heaven?
1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him (which is), and (which was), and (which is to come), and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne,

Mat_17:9 Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
Joh_21:25 (if they should be written every one)

Just saying where?
---TheSeg on 8/27/13


"A liar is someone who knowingly speaks/writes something they know is not true." Warwick

So citing something that he knows is false makes him...what?
---scott on 8/25/13

What is consistent is the brand of Christian vinegar he offers to win you over to his cult of one.
To get a wolf to run...bring a "Sheep". Bring any of thousands of sheep scriptures....and its back to a nude beach in communist france for a couple...wi,wi,we. Small caps intentional.
Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
---Trav on 8/27/13


Scott, your question was based upon your belief Jesus and the Father are not equal. My answer included 2 examples showing they are. See also 1:13-18 where one like a son of man says "I am the first and the Last. I am the Living One, I was dead, and behold I am alive forever and ever." Who died and rose again? Jesus. Who is the First and the Last? Both Jesus and Jehovah are given this unique title meaning they are one and the same. This is repeated in 2:8.

And just in case you do not yet know who Jesus is he says He is coming soon, calling Himself by the Fathers title, said three ways just in case you didn't get the message before this "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
---Warwick on 8/27/13


God (Elohim) 'was talking to the other members of the Godhead'- Warwick.

This is a polytheist view of Gen.1:26.

When the plural Elohim is used in Scripture to refer to Almighty God, singular verbs are used. While Elohim is a plural noun, all the verbs attributed directly to Elohim in Gen.1:26,27 are singular, not plural. The only verb that is plural is 'Let us make.' But this does not indicate that Elohim is an 'us'. From the grammar alone, we can only conclude that Elohim is one identity in the 'us' group and God is speaking on behalf of that group.

Addressing the 'us' group, God says 'Let us make (na'aseh) man in our image'. Creation however is exclusively God's activity as 1:27 reveals, 'God created (yiv-ra) man'.
---David8318 on 8/27/13


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Scotty: One more time:

Once again you have attempted to hijack a serious blog question to promote your anti-Christian, anti-Trinity dogma. We don't buy it. Now move on and let the grownups discuss the topic at hand.




---jerry6593 on 8/27/13


"Revelation question nonsense"- Warwick

And yet through the flurry of red herrings we can see that you haven't even attempted to answer the simple and direct question.

Here it is again for your convenience:

The Revelation (1:1) was given to Jesus Christ after his death and ascension to heaven, not while a man on earth who had "emptied himself."

If equal to God and "one in thought" why, in his heavenly glory, did the "Revelation" need to be "given" to Jesus by God?
---scott on 8/26/13


"Zechariah 12:10..."Me" who was "pierced" All major translations agree on "Me"..." Warwick

You're embarrassing yourself.

"...when they look upon him whom they have pierced" - This is the rendering found in the RSV, NRSV, GNB, MLB, NAB (1970), NAB (1991), LB, Mo, AT, JB, NJB, NLV, BBE, and Byington. (ASV says in a footnote for "me" in Zech. 12:10: "According to some MSS. [manuscripts], `him'." You might also take a look at Rotherham's footnote.

Whew! That's a lot of "unschooled" Bible translators.
---scott on 8/26/13


Scot, you avoid my Latin question knowing it answers your "it' question.

In NT Greek the Holy Spirit is called 'to pneuma to agion'-The Holy Spirit. We are commanded (Matthew 28:19) to baptize "in the name of the Father and (the name)of the Son and (the name)of the Holy Spirit," No 'its' in sight!!

Two Corinthians 13:14 "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all." Likewise we see the same Greek regarding fellowship with Jesus-1 Corinthians 1:9. 'Fellowship' means a personal living relationship, a bond of common purpose and devotion. Fellowship with an "it"? No.
---Warwick on 8/26/13


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Simple question left unanswered by Warwick:

Does the Greek NT use "it" in relation to the Holy Spirit or not?
---scott on 8/26/13


Scott, your Revelation question is nonsense as Revelation proves Jesus is God. For 1 example 1:7 talks of those who "pierced" Jesus. Zechariah 12:10 shows it is Jehovah "Me" who was "pierced" All major translations agree on "Me" but your New World Mistranslation replaces "Me" with "the One." Unschooled as the NWT translators are they know this link contradicts their fable so Zechariah 12:10 had to be perverted. Jehovah is "pierced", Jesus is "pierced"-1 and the same God.

For good reason Revelation describes both Jehovah and Jesus as "the Alpha and the Omega", "the First, and the Last", again one and the same God.
---Warwick on 8/26/13


Scott again with the double speak, oy vey! I gave the Latin example, thankfully supplied by J Caesar of veni, vidi, vici, word for word as you would have it: "came, saw, conquered." You may notice there is no "I" there but when translated into English it is rendered 'I came, I saw, I conquered.' I ask you again Scott: seeing Latin does not have 'I' is it correct to insert 'I' in English? Yes or no!

BTW I notice you are now scott, not Scott-been demoted?
---Warwick on 8/26/13


\\God inspired his word to be written in Koine Greek (and Hebrew and Aramaic) not Latin or French.\\

And in Greek, "to agio pnevmati" is grammatically neuter.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/26/13


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Well, how about throughout the original Greek text?

"The Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you." John 14:17 NAB, (Catholic), 1991
---scott on 8/26/13

Scott,

jesus, John the baptist and humans are also call it.

"And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. John 6:39

You know gender of a word has nothing to do about the identity, it is about the language.!!
---Ruben on 8/26/13


Latin, French and Warwick's double talk-

So, simple question: Does the Greek NT use "it" in relation to the Holy Spirit or not?

God inspired his word to be written in Koine Greek (and Hebrew and Aramaic) not Latin or French.

It was Warwick who said "If you say I am wrong show me where the Holy Spirit is called "it."

Well, how about throughout the original Greek text?

"The Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you." John 14:17 NAB, (Catholic), 1991
---scott on 8/26/13


When Galileo and Copernicul .....were also seen as heretics. Are you sure we will not have to change our mind?

---Jennifer on 8/20/13

Hey...I recognize you.... being a doubting Thomas myself in my past. Show me the beef...right? If you remember that one.
GOD does reveal the beef/answers. Preachers seldom know how now and wouldn't tell you if they did for fear of losing position...that you can/should go straight to YAHSHUA for answers. You can search...the prophets/apostles for two + authorized scriptural witnesses which eradicate the opinion/theory/denom's confusion.
Go through involve your husband.
Mat_23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ, and all ye are brethren.
---Trav on 8/26/13


David there you go with the dishonesty, again. In Genesis 1:26 God-Elohim (which is plural) says "...let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness...." Who was He talking to? The angels? No, because man was not made in the likeness of an angel. Was He talking to Himself? In a way that is true because God in one but in three persons, so He was talking to the other members of the Godhead. Elohim also talks to the Godhead as recorded in Genesis 3:22.

Where is your dishonesty? You know we talk always of one God in three persons but you dishonestly say we believe in three Gods. Also that you try vainly, and repeatedly try to equate the Christian Trinity of one God, with the pagan idea of three separate Gods.
---Warwick on 8/25/13


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Scott, good try however if you had been with Julius Caesar you would see he wrote veni, vidi, vici which literally is came, saw, conquered, but is correctly translated as I came, I saw, I conquered. Are the translators wrong to add I? Also in French my favourite language we see Qu,est-ce que c'est cette maison? Literally: What is it that it is that house? Correctly translated-What is that house? You don't even fool someone of my limited knowledge!

You want us to believe an "it" can be blasphemed, is referred to as he, is counsellor, teaches, reminds, testifies, speaks, commands, calls Himself I. And Peter says lying to this "it" is the same as lying to God. And we can have fellowship with an "it."
---Warwick on 8/26/13


Note to scott/david: Once again you have attempted to hijack a serious blog question to promote your anti-Christian, anti-Trinity dogma. We don't buy it. Now move on and let the grownups discuss the topic at hand.



Jennifer: You raise an interesting question. It is interesting because the belief that the Bible and science are at odds is a myth perpetuated by anti-God academia. God invented science, and thus true science and true religion will always agree. Galileo and Copernicus were right, but it was not the Bible that said they were wrong - it was the errant but pompous RCC.



---jerry6593 on 8/26/13


It looks like the same old hateful nonsense, with accusations flying. Well, I'll leave you to it. God bless.
---Love.wins on 8/23/13

You are typical of 99% of christians who have nothing to share even by provocation. A coward of the 1st degree...presuming you are on a higher road.
You would not save a sheep from the preacher wolves or a fat bear.
You are the problem not the answer.
Love wins nothing when it does not display it.
Love is caring enough to rescue sheep in the middle of a bear fight. Out of the teeth of wolves/preachers. Yet you do nothing!

Jer_5:31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means, and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?
---Trav on 8/26/13


'we know that God is plural, more than one person'- francis.

'Elohim' is constructed with a singular verbal predicate thus taking on a singular adjectival attribute when applied to Jehovah (YHWH). 'Elohim' is an 'intensive plural', denoting Jehovah's greatness and majesty.

'Elohim' appears by itself 35 times in the creation account, and every time the verb describing what he said and did is in the SINGULAR number.

'Elohim is plural, thus God is more than one' is a dumbed down understanding of elohim, but also polytheist. 'More than one God... God is at least Jesus'? Really!? Recall francis' rendering of Jo.1:1: Jesus is 'with God'.

More than one person? God is 'with God'? Clearly, trinitarians preach polytheism.
---David8318 on 8/25/13


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'Constantine did not introduce the CONCEPT of the Trinity'- jerry6593.

You have a habit of missing the point. Constantine introduced the concept of the trinity into his newly formed RCC: 325-381AD. Yes the concept of the trinity was around long before Constantine was alive. The concept of the trinity dates back to ancient pagan Egypt, where they worshipped their god's in three's, often referring to them in the singular.

But the point I made was Constantine, a pagan Roman Emperor, introduced the unBiblical concept of the pagan trinity into his newly formed Roman Catholic Church. From there on it has spread to the rest of Christendom.

And no, I do not worship 'Sunday'.
---David8318 on 8/25/13


'And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood, and these three agree as one'- 1John 5:8 (KJV).

Let's assume the spurious additions to verse 7 do appear in early Greek MS (they don't, but let's assume they do).

Trinitarians rush to the conclusion 'the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost' are identified as 'one God' at verse 7. Yet verse 8 shows 'the Spirit, and the water, and the blood' also 'agree as one'. But no one concludes verse 8 speaks of a trinity of 'Spirit, water and blood', do they? It would be reckless to conclude such an idea.

The issue is that of "testimony". Thus, the oneness in question is a oneness of purpose, not of identity or substance of being.
---David8318 on 8/25/13


David, you continually, dishonestly misrepresent what Trinitarians believe. That is lying. I hold a different view of John 1:1, than you, that is not lying.

As regards John 1:1 I note the NIV, NLT, ESV, NASB, KJV, Holman, ISV, NET, Aramaic, God's Word, AKJV, ASV, Douay-Rheims, Darby, ERV, Websters, Weymouth, WEB, and Youngs, all translate John 1:1 that the 'Word' Jesus, is God.

I am happy with this translation as John's gospel alone speaks of Jesus who was recognized as God by others (20:28), pre-existent and eternal (1:15,30,3:31), self-existent (1:4,5:26) omnipresent (1:47-49), omniscient (2:25,16:30, 21:17), omnipotent (1:3,2:19,11:1-44), and sovereign (5:21,22,27-29,10:18.
---Warwick on 8/25/13


"If you say I am wrong show me where the Holy Spirit is called "it."- Warwick

"The Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you." John 14:17 NAB, (Catholic), 1991

"The Greek word for 'spirit' is neuter, and while we [trinitarians] use personal pronouns in English ('he,' 'his,' 'him'), most Greek manuscripts employ 'it.'" - New American Bible, St. Joseph ed., (footnote for John 14:17).

Also see An American Translation by Smith and Goodspeed which uses "itself" and "it" for the holy spirit at Romans 8:16, 26, 27.
---scott on 8/25/13


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"A liar is someone who knowingly speaks/writes something they know is not true." Warwick

1 John 5:7, 8

In the many trinity discussions that I have observed or participated in Warwick has never (to my knowledge) cited the infamous 'Johannine Comma.' But he refers to it now to support his argument. Why not before?

Most knowledgable Trinitarian apologists (unless they are KJ Only supporters) use this clause because of its absence in the earliest manuscripts. (Evidence to follow).

My guess is that Warwick hasn't used it before (if he has...what date...what post?) because he is aware of the false nature of the text in question.

So citing something that he knows is false makes him...what?
---scott on 8/25/13


Unanswered on another thread:

"One, not only in substance but in thought also." Warwick

1. Are you saying that Jesus did not have or share the thoughts of God while on earth?

If not then please defend your assertion that the father and the son are "one in thought."


2. The Revelation (1:1) was given to Jesus Christ after his death and ascension to heaven, not while a man on earth who had "emptied himself."

If equal to God and "one in thought" why, in his heavenly glory, did the "Revelation" need to be "given" to Jesus by God?
---scott on 8/25/13


-David8318 on 8/24/13
NWT:
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Genesis 1:26 And God went on to say: Let us make man in our image,

So now we know that God is plural, more than one person

Speaking of Jesus Colossians 1:16 by means of him all things were created ,

Now we know for sure that God is at least That Jesus is the creator

1 Timothy 3:16 Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: He was made manifest in flesh,
2 John 1:7 For many deceivers have gone forth into the world, persons not confessing Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh.

Here is a TRICK question: What, was Jesus before he came in the flesh?
---francis on 8/25/13


\\ I am fully aware of how trinitarians since the days of pagan Roman Emperor Constantine (who introduced the pagan concept of trinity into his newly formed RCC), use and abuse John 1:1-3.\\

This is historically false, as is everything else David says.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/25/13


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David a liar is someone who knowingly speaks/writes something they know is not true. There is no doubt you do that in writing of the pagan trinity, of three Gods. I repeat what Christan quoted "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." 1 John 5:7. But you insist we believe in 3 separate God's. That is an obvious lie.

Now David show us where I have lied.
---Warwick on 8/25/13


The trinity has nothing to do with Catholics. The trinity has always been and its all thru the bible. You would know if you read your bible.
---shira4368 on 8/25/13


David, Jesus, Creator, sustainer of the whole universe, the Alpha and the Omega, is well able to forgive sins as Scripture says. He chose to forgive those who blasphemed and murdered Him. That He does this does not mean He is not God.

Your incomprehension stems from your indoctrination which promotes a pagan anthropomorphic view of God. This forces you to imagine God is/has always been human-like so Trinitarians must therefore believe in 3 human-like Gods, as per the pagan Greek gods.

As regards your calling the C & MA a cult I attend different denominations when away from home, with the full knowledge of my pastor. But you cannot do this can you? That is because you are in an exclusive cult. I am not.
---Warwick on 8/25/13


David: "I am fully aware of how trinitarians since the days of pagan Roman Emperor Constantine (who introduced the pagan concept of trinity into his newly formed RCC), use and abuse John 1:1-3."

You are wrong! Constantine did not introduce the CONCEPT of the Trinity. He may have introduced the word, but Christ introduced the concept.

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Constantine did, however, put teeth into the forced observance of the pagan day of worship - Sunday. I'll bet you accept his false worship day, don't you?



---jerry6593 on 8/25/13


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Francis, I am fully aware of how trinitarians since the days of pagan Roman Emperor Constantine (who introduced the pagan concept of trinity into his newly formed RCC), use and abuse John 1:1-3.

The Greek structure at John 1:1 ('theos en ho logos') shows John does not identify the Word as the God he is with. Unless of course you are teaching the Word is God in addition to the God he is with- Which is polytheism. Rather, John is describing the Word as 'godlike' or 'a god'.

Warwick has so far been stumped by this trinitarian conundrum: If the Word 'was God', why is blasphemously speaking against Jesus forgiven (Mt.12:31,32), but not forgiven when against God (Lev.24:16)? Aren't they one and the same? Is the Word God or not?
---David8318 on 8/24/13


David you call the Holy Spirit "it" but that makes you a blasphemer and places you in opposition to all of Scripture. See for example Matt. 28.19, John 14:26, 15:26, Acts 5:3-4, 13:2, where referring to The Holy Spirit, it says:

People are baptized into His name
He is referred to as he
He is counselor
He teaches
He reminds
He testifies
He speaks
He commands
He calls Himself I
Peter equates lying to Him as lying to God.
We can have fellowship with Him

Nothing in these verses suggests anything other than the Holy Spirit being a person. These references don't fit with Him being a force, or impersonal

If you say I am wrong show me where the Holy Spirit is called "it."
---Warwick on 8/24/13


"Thus, God, the HS and Jesus are not equal. The trinity is false." David8318

It's one thing to say what you say with the support of the Holy Bible and another altogether when Scriptures outright and explicitly calls you a liar.

That's because it explicitly declares, "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." 1 John 5:7

It's explicit, "the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost" are God, it finishes as "three are one". Also confirming the doctrine of the Holy Trinity.

The blasphemy in Matthew 12:31,32 that will not be forgiven at all is the blaphemy that the Holy Spirit is not God.
---christan on 8/24/13


Warwick, you of all people call someone a compulsive liar!

'Give it a try and see if I am right'. Wow, what a creepy invitation! Abandon truth about Jesus Christ, and forfeit salvation for the devilish pagan trinity doctrine? The thought is unimaginable!

Scripture is clear: it is unforgivable to blaspheme God- Lev.24:16. However, blasphemy against Jesus is forgivable- Matt.12:31,32, thus Jesus is not 'fully God'! The trinity is false. I can't imagine Warwick remaining in his C & MA cult very long if he abandoned the trinity.

RCC founder, pagan Roman Emperor Constantine didn't stop at adopting the pagan view of the sun and earth. He also adopted the pagan holy-day December 25, Easter, trinity and other pagan belief's.
---David8318 on 8/24/13


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\\Matthew 28:19, trinitarian version: 'baptized in the name of God and of God and of God'. Smacks of polytheism.\\

Wrong again, as in everything you say, David.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/24/13


You cannot convince David of what you are not holding in faith.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Genesis 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

John 1:3 All things were made by him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Matthew 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
---francis on 8/24/13


I thought i'd stop by and see what's happening on these blogs. It looks like the same old hateful nonsense, with accusations flying. Well, I'll leave you to it. God bless.
---Love.wins on 8/23/13


'You claim that as the Holy Spirit comes from God He cannot be blasphemed'- Warwick.

On the contrary. The holy spirit can be blasphemed. It can be because it 'comes from the Father'. The Pharisee's saw the miraculous operation of the holy spirit through Jesus, but ascribed those actions to the workings of the Devil. Because the holy spirit 'is from the Father' (Ac.2:33) the Pharisee's blasphemed the holy spirit and God (Lev.24:16).

However, and this is the point Warwick ignores. On the matter of blasphemy, 'Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven'- Matt.12:31,32.

So Jesus, when on earth was not 'fully God' as trinitarians assert. God and the HS, and Jesus are not equal or one and the same.
---David8318 on 8/24/13


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David, there is no other way to say it-you are a compulsive liar!

You have been told many times that we do not believe in multiple gods but one God who is Spirit (John 4:24)invisible and eternal. When Jesus the Son of God (therefore God), Messiah, came to earth He said "a body you prepared for me." This is Jesus, Son of Man, born of Mary, therefore man. The visible presence of God: He who said "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father."

You just don't get it David as you have been indoctrinated by men who reject the Lord Jesus Christ. You are not allowed to disagree with anything your masters say or you will be rudely disfellowshiped. Give it a try and see if I am right.
---Warwick on 8/23/13


Matthew 28:19, trinitarian version: 'baptized in the name of God and of God and of God'. Smacks of polytheism.

Warwick is a follower of Albert Simpson's cult, the "C & MA" (Christian and Missionary Alliance) who follow the precepts of the pagan trinity as do other false teachers such as EGW. These false preachers use man-made terms such as 'trinity' to describe their false deity. Man-made belief's are a hallmark of cult organisations.

Jesus at Matt.12:31.32 does not identify the HS as God. The issue is blasphemy, which when committed against the HS and God (Lev.24:16) is not forgiven- but is forgiven when against Jesus! Thus, God, the HS and Jesus are not equal. The trinity is false.
---David8318 on 8/23/13


David8318, you obviously have a BIG problem understanding the English language. This is what Christ declared in Matthew 12:31,

"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men."

Simply to mean that a man can sin and blaspheme against Christ, eg, denying He is God - and it is forgivable. But your problem goes further than that, you deny the Holy Spirit is God, of which Christ simply declared, "blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men... neither in this world, neither in the world to come." Judgement on your believe has been passed.
---christan on 8/23/13


David your reply isn't Biblical or logical. Jesus says anyone who blasphemes the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven Mark 3:29. Leviticus 24:16 tells us anyone who blasphemes God's name is to be executed. And Jesus, naming the Holy Spirit says blasphemy against Him will never be forgiven. Jesus is therefore calling the Holy Spirit God.

You claim that as the Holy Spirit comes from God He cannot be blasphemed. However Jesus also comes from the Father and He says He can be blasphemed, but it will be forgiven Matthew 12:32. Your point is invalid.
---Warwick on 8/23/13


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'Jesus says the Holy Spirit can be blasphemed', but not because as Warwick fantasizes it is 'part of the Godhead', but because as Jesus stated- holy spirit is 'from the Father'- Ac.2:33 (The wind and solar radiation cannot be blasphemed- they do not 'come from the Father').

The pagan fantasy world of Warwick ignores Jesus clear statement regarding blasphemy- 'Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven'- Matt.12:31,32 (NIV).

Comparison with Lev.24:15,16 clearly shows Jesus cannot be 'the God' who can be blasphemed. Jesus is not Almighty God.

Those involved in cultic pagan philosophies cannot see the fallacy of the pagan trinity dogma.
---David8318 on 8/23/13


Jennifer as we know this is God's universe and as Hebrews 1:3 says Jesus "upholds the universe by the word of his power." We know also that the earth orbits the sun once per year. And like the other planets does so with such accuracy that scientists can launch a rocket to Mars and months later Mars arrives where the rocket has been aimed. And as Psalm 104:5 attests the earth will never be moved from the path which Jesus the Son of God has ordained it to travel.

There are countless things which the Bible is very clear about and others which are open to wonder. However the early chapters of Genesis could not be any clearer saying that God created everything by His spoken word, not by any evolutionary process and in 6 24hr days.
---Warwick on 8/23/13


David8318, every time you open your heart to speak about the trinity, you condemn yourself further down the abyss of the lake of fire.

THE FATHER SPOKE:
"Let there be light: and there was light."

THE SON:
"In him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehended it not."

THE SPIRIT:
"And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

You see (no punt intended but I know you can't), the Father, Son and The Holy Spirit created everything. Whereas your bible says Darth Vader and his force was the one.
---christan on 8/22/13


Warwick: 'And evolution needs no God. '

Obviously

I brought up the concept of Copernicus because it was a case when the then Church believed something to be against the Bible, when in fact is was not.

The Aristotelian cosmology was indeed faulty, but the complaint of the RCC was simply Copernicus claim that the earth moves. They took some fragments of scripture to indicate that the Bible says the earth is stable

I really started this to ask whether we know what the Bible really means. For as Rome thought the Bible implied the earth was stationary, are we sure we may not be making the same error - not specifically about evolution, but about something we consider the Bible to say

Even though I accept creation
---Jennifer on 8/22/13


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To be pedantic the heading should be evolutionism Vs Creationism, the 'ism' denoting that both are beliefs, both incapable of being proven or disproven by the scientific method.
---Warwick on 8/22/13


David, you of all people call someone cultic!

You have it backwards. The RCC accepted Aristotelian cosmology (as most did for the previous 18 centuries) despite the fact that at its core his philosophies are antiBiblical. However the Trinity is Scriptural. Endeavouring to defend the indefensible you agreed Jesus says the Holy Spirit can be blasphemed, making Him part of the Godhead. But you insist the Holy Spirit doesn't really exist. How can an impersonal force be blasphemed? Can the wind or solar radiation be blasphemed?

Matthew 28:19 JW version ...baptizing them in the name of the Father and of an angel and of the Holy impersonal force.
---Warwick on 8/22/13


Actual observation and tests have scientifically shown that the earth moves around the sun.

But there have been no decisive tests done, about evolution. There has been mainly only arguing and wishfulness, but no clear-cut experiments which clearly prove or disprove evolution, as would be done with the proper scientific method.

And you "might" evaluate the motives of why a person would want evolution to be true. Whose character "might" have someone desire to believe in "survival of the fittest", for one example?
---willie_c: on 8/22/13


To use Warwick's words, '...if I remember correctly, that the Roman Catholic church had accepted a man-made nonBiblical idea' ...that the Son is also God, co-equal and co-eternal with the father and holy spirit. A concept of God which non-Christian Roman Emperor Constantine adopted from paganism.

The RCC and its trinitarian sects and cults use Plato's philosophy of substance and metaphysics to explain how you can have not 3 god's, but 'three in one'- a 'triune God'. Trinitarians reason "Jesus is the same substance as his Father, therefore Jesus must be God". This is Neo-Platonic thinking.

Evolution, the Sun circling the Earth and the trinity are but some pagan myths adopted by the RCC and Christendoms sects in general.
---David8318 on 8/22/13


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"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." Genesis 1:1

Is it that hard to believe God?

Next.
---christan on 8/22/13


Jennifer the point, as I see it, is why did the RC church defend Aristotelian cosmology when is contains explicitly antiBiblical elements. Historians say that Aquinas convinced the church to ignore these antiBiblical components saying the Bible was not written in technical philosophical language. That it was written in the language of the day, whatever that means. Today we have Christians reinterpreting Scripture falsely saying Genesis is not to be taken at face value, saying, like Aquinas that it is not meant to be read, as written. Therefore, they claim, God could have used evolution to create. However what they avoid is that Jesus and the apostles took Genesis as sober history. And evolution needs no God.
---Warwick on 8/21/13


Warwick: 'man-made nonBiblical idea that the sun circled the earth'

They obviously beleived it was Biblical, and one can find a couple of verses that supported the church's view....

However, it is possible, if you look at the Bible in one way, you can certainly read that into a number of verses, such as:

Ps 96:10 ('earth cannot be moved') - this was often used as proof the sun moves around the sun.

Eccl 1:5

There are few other ones as well.

So the Catholics could claim they were saying the same we say about creation/evolution, that's what I'm saying.

We must be careful what we are saying, that's all we must remember
---Jennifer on 8/21/13


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