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500 Saw Risen Jesus

St. Paul said that 500 people saw the risen Jesus. St. Matthew says that some people who were watching His very Ascension doubted. St. Luke says that only 120 were persevering in prayer in the Upper Room 10 days later. Any comments on this attrition?

Moderator - Sounds like Christianity today. :) Just different accounts of the same events from their vantage point.

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 ---Cluny on 8/20/13
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Let's see Christan, you didn't even know that the Pentatauch was part of the Bible. You didn't even know that Pentecost was 50 days after Passover. You didn't even know Pentecost was a Jewish celebration from the Old Testament. You didn't even know there was any relation between Passover and Pentecost. And yet somehow you feel you are in a position to educate any of us on the Bible? Get real.
---Jed on 9/4/13


\\Who gave you the authority to decide that "chapters and verses" were not given by God through His Spirit to be included in the Holy Bible as we see it today?\\

Who gave you the authority to decide that the chapter and verse divisions--not even 500 years old--ARE of divine inspiration?

Whatever did Christians (and, for that matter, Jews) do for 1500 or so years before they were invented?

That they are convenient I will not deny, but there is no reason, since they are of merely human invention and authority, that they could not have been otherwise than they are currently received.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/4/13


You really love to project, don't you, christan?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/4/13


christan:

Nice quotes. But what do they have to do with the subjects being discussed?

I presume you're talking about us - so it's yet another personal attack, while totally avoiding any of the actual issues being discussed. That is, you imply that people are fools, without actually showing that they are.

When you try to provide such evidence, and it's refuted, instead of addressing the issue, you just hurl more insults.

Are you, in fact, even capable of holding a rational level-headed discussion that doesn't involve hurling insults and accusations? Because, so far, I haven't seen it.

This makes discussing anything difficult, and ends up wasting the precious few blog posts we are allowed with useless cat-fights.
---StrongAxe on 9/4/13


StrongAxe, make up your mind, man! It's either you take the Holy Bible as it is, i.e.. the "chapters and verses" were also from the Holy Spirit together with the numbers or you don't take anything at all.

Who gave you the authority to decide that "chapters and verses" were not given by God through His Spirit to be included in the Holy Bible as we see it today? Without them (chapters and verses), how do you even know where to search in the Bible? See your folly?

"All things were made by Him, and without Him was not any thing made that was made." John 1:3 - this is without exception, including the Bible as we have today. "Chapters and verses" included.
---christan on 9/4/13




"Go from the presence of a foolish man, when thou perceivest not in him the lips of knowledge." Proverbs 14:7, "The tongue of the wise useth knowledge aright: but the mouth of fools poureth out foolishness." Proverbs 15:2

"Excellent speech becometh not a fool: much less do lying lips a prince." Proverbs 17:7, "Wherefore is there a price in the hand of a fool to get wisdom, seeing he hath no heart to it?" Proverbs 17:16

"A fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself. A fool's lips enter into contention, and his mouth calleth for strokes." Proverbs 18:2,6
---christan on 9/3/13


christan, when I first referred to the Penteteuch (another name for the five Books of Moses, which I learned in Baptist Sunday School), did you think I mean the Talmud or something like that?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/3/13


christan:

Scriptures are God-given. Chapter and verse numbers are not.

You said: You expose your unbelief...

This is slander (false witness). I know Cluny and know he DOES believe what you just said he doesn't.

Whether Jesus was with Moses has NOTHING to do with whether he quoted laws without quoting a book.

As for your justification ... is immaterial and feeble on your end.

It PROVES Paul, DID, on at least one occasion, quote scripture without quoting a book.

Whereas you and your cohorts speak of nothing that can be found in the Holy Bible.

We speak directly about what Jesus and Paul said - so the underlined phrase is clearly false.
---StrongAxe on 9/3/13


I'd love to see any biblical basis for ANY of Christan's claims. All he does is post scriptures that either are completely irrelevant to the topic being discussed, or that actually prove the other person's case.
---Jed on 9/3/13


"During His earthly ministry, Christ quoted the lex talionis ("eye for an eye") but never gave the book it was in." Cluny

You expose your unbelief that Christ is God before He became flesh. Don't you believe He was there when the laws of God was given to Moses? He declared, "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM."

As for your justification that Paul never referred to Isaiah 49:8 and Psalm 69:13 when he wrote in 2 Corinthians 6:2 is immaterial and feeble on your end. Fact is, you can find his witness in those chapters.

Whereas you and your cohorts speak of nothing that can be found in the Holy Bible. That's my point!

Try again.
---christan on 9/3/13




StrongAxe, your lack of faith is serious. Wouldn't you agree we receive instructions from God trough His Word (ie, Holy Bible) with chapters and verses?

To make light of chapters and verses with numbers as we have today as "man-made tradition" is to trivialise the work of the Holy Spirit for God's people. "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."

If it's "man-made tradition", why do you even bother to be a Christian and read the Bible? Wouldn't it be better if you were an atheist or buddhist?
---christan on 9/3/13


christan:

You said: Obviously I am speaking of the present time or do I have to draw it out to you like a child learning the ABC?

Again with personal insults. Can you ever speak without them?

You obviously missed my point about how Jesus and the Apostles didn't quote chapter and verse numbers because they didn't exist. Requiring people to quote them NOW would be an additional burden Jesus and the apostles never had, hence a new man-made law never mentioned in the Bible.

Chapter and verse numbers are a man-made convenience for study. So are you saying we violate biblical law by not obeying a post-biblical man-made tradition to quote man-made numbers?

I'd love to see your biblical basis for such a view...
---StrongAxe on 9/3/13


Here is what I found. John, His own beloved disciple, barely recognized the resurrected glorified Christ--doubted may be translated as hesitated. The most obvious explanation is that Matthew wrote to the hesitant Jewish community, he was saying he understood their hesitation for he too was a Jew who had become a Christian [Matt. 28:16-17].
---catherine on 9/3/13


\\Once again, Christ and the apostles mentioned the books they were quoting from, \\

Not always.

During His earthly ministry, Christ quoted the lex talionis ("eye for an eye") but never gave the book it was in.

In 2 Corinthians 6:2, St. Paul quotes the verse about the "acceptable time/day of salvation" without giving its original source.

Would you care to try again?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/3/13


Christan still back pedaling I see. Just admit that you were wrong about Passover and Pentecost. Trying to weasel your way out of it. It's obvious.
---Jed on 9/3/13


"You claim that not citing chapter and verse means someone is lying. Jesus and the Apostles never did, yet they didn't lie." StrongAxe

Duuhhh... was the Holy Bible available in Christ's ministry when He was on earth? Once again, Christ and the apostles mentioned the books they were quoting from, which in today's context has been compiled into the Holy Bible with chapters and verses for our reference. Obviously I am speaking of the present time or do I have to draw it out to you like a child learning the ABC?

"But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!" Matthew 6:23
---christan on 9/3/13


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Why do you keep on quoting scriptures that clearly apply to YOURSELF on this thread, christan?

What does it have to do with the attrition seen by the Feast of Pentecost?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/3/13


"He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition."
Mark 7:6-9
---christan on 9/3/13


christan:

You claim that not citing chapter and verse means someone is lying. Jesus and the Apostles never did, yet they didn't lie.

So what changed? At what point did citing chapter and verse become REQUIRED for quoting scripture? Did God's laws change and require something that wasn't required before? Because that is what you are implying.

We as Christians aren't required to know Jewish tradition - but if we start criticizing it, we had better know what we are talking about, or we make ourselves out to look like fools.

Jesus said that he who lives by the sword dies by the sword. If you pick up anything (whether a gun or a tradition), you'll hurt yourself with it if you don't know what you're doing.
---StrongAxe on 9/2/13


\\"In the mouth of the foolish is a rod of pride... There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." Proverbs 14:3,12\\

You've described yourself to a T, christan.

"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, saith the Lord. ...\\

That's right. You don't believe you think the same way God does, do you?

\\... by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." 1 Corinthians 1:21\\

There's a difference between "foolishness of preaching" and "preaching foolishness." You do this latter, christan.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/2/13


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"In the mouth of the foolish is a rod of pride... There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." Proverbs 14:3,12

"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8,9

"For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." 1 Corinthians 1:21
---christan on 9/2/13


I think it's pretty obvious this conversation needs to end to save Christan even more embarrassment.
---Jed on 9/1/13


"please tell me where Jesus quoted Scripture giving chapter and verse numbers" Cluny

Are you serious? Or do you not know that the Holy Bible was yet to be compiled (like what we have today) during the time of Christ ministry? But He quote verses from certain books present in the Holy Bible today. The Gospels and epistles were yet to be written. Are you that blur?

Make no mistake that Christ does mention the books He was referring to when speaking. Classic example would be this which can be said to you three amigos and one donkey, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me." Mark 7:6
---christan on 8/31/13


"You obviously know little or nothing about the Jewish feasts and festivals" Jed

Your foolishness to what you have said clearly exposes your heart and a clear confession that you are not a Christian, though you may blow your trumpet as you're one. But the sound that's coming out of that trumpet is nothing but "I'm a fool".

Please show everyone here where in the teachings of Christ are we told to do what you have suggested to be a Christian? Though I'm not holding my breath waiting.

"Everyone knows Pentecost is 50 days after Passover." - Really? Is Pentecost a feast or festival?
---christan on 8/31/13


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BAM! Christan = schooled.

Case closed.
---Jed on 8/31/13

more like a verbal spanking,
\pants down, bent over verbal spanking
WHAM!!
---francis on 8/31/13


StrongAxe, I'm not talking about the Ten Commandments or The Lord's Prayer here with regards to knowing which book or chapter they are from.

I'm referring to doctrines where if you claim to others about your understanding with regards to the Word, the least you can do is to show those you're sharing with where it say so in the Scriptures what you are saying to be that of truth. When sharing the Word, it becomes your responsibility to know where the verses are when you talk about doctrines.

Many simply just parrot off what their pastors say to them without doing due diligence like the Bereans in Acts 17:10-15. And when I check the Scriptures, what you claim is normally a lie.
---christan on 8/31/13


BAM! Christan = schooled.

Case closed.
---Jed on 8/31/13


Christan:

You said: StrongAxe, why do you contradict and mock yourself? It doesn't make sense when you wrote, ..."

What contradiction? Most poeple know the Ten Commandments and the Lord's Prayer - but few know their chapters and verses. Does this make then liars when they quote the Commandments, or when they pray the Prayer?

Can *YOU* cite chapter and verse for these two from memory, without looking them up? If you can't, then you are the one contradicting and mocking self, not I. I can't, but I don't claim to be able to. I *DO* know how to find them when I need them. Jesus nor any of the Apostles cited chapter and verse either. Were they liars?
---StrongAxe on 8/31/13


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\\StrongAxe, why do you contradict and mock yourself? It doesn't make sense when you wrote, "Many people know scriptures they can't cite chapter and verse of. This means they're not experts - NOT that they're lying."

How does one claim to know the Scriptures and does not know where it is said or written in the Holy Bible?\\

christan, please tell me where Jesus quoted Scripture giving chapter and verse numbers.

Chapter and verse divisions are not in the original--in fact, they are not even 500 years old yet--but are among the many traditions and precepts men people think are part of the Bible.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/31/13


**Cluny, it will do you well when I ask "Recorded? Where?" that I was simply referring to the Holy Bible and not any other books outside of the Holy Bible. Bottomline for me as a Christian is, if it's not in the Holy Bible, we have nothing to discuss anymore.

Your theory is based not on the Holy Bible teachings but that of one that's outside of the Holy Bible, and that according to the teachings of Paul, is a no no.

"ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." 2 Timothy 3:16,17

Paul does not say "Penteteuch".**
---Cluny on 8/31/13


Christan, just give it up man. Surely you've got to know you're not right here. You obviously know little or nothing about the Jewish feasts and festivals like Pentecost, especially since you apparently didn't even realize it was a Jewish festival. Everyone knows Pentecost is 50 days after Passover. It has been a Jewish holiday since Exodus. The very word "Pentecost" actually means "the 50th day". It was the day that the law was given to Israel on Mt. Sinai, 50 days after Passover and their Exodus from Egypt. It happened to be on this day thousands of years later that the Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus' followers in the upper room. Read your Bible.
---Jed on 8/31/13


StrongAxe, why do you contradict and mock yourself? It doesn't make sense when you wrote, "Many people know scriptures they can't cite chapter and verse of. This means they're not experts - NOT that they're lying."

How does one claim to know the Scriptures and does not know where it is said or written in the Holy Bible? It has nothing to do with being an "expert" to know where the chapters or verses are since you're telling us what you think the Scripture is saying or implying.

I would rather think you should know where in the Bible it says so when you're sharing and witnessing, right? In case you're being questioned or challenged to support your case. Especially in a public domain like this.
---christan on 8/30/13


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christan:

You said: if you cannot produce what is said in the Scriptures to support your theory or understandings, the simple truth is you're lying.

Many people know scriptures they can't cite chapter and verse of. This means they're not experts - NOT that they're lying.

Continue laughing all you, because in the next life, it's "weeping and gnashing" forever and ever.

You often seem eager to criticize, accuse and condemn. Devil comes from Greek diablos - to accuse, slander, defame - from diaballo, to bring charges with hostile intent.

John 3:17 "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world"

Whom should we emulate? Jesus or the Devil?
---StrongAxe on 8/30/13


"Yes, you did at first. Read your own previous posts." Cluny

Let me advise you to read my blogs closely and carefully. I NEVER disagreed that what we find in Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy came from the Pentateuch. Clear?

Now, what I challenged you was to simply show us what you were trying to say with regards to your understanding of the Passover and Pentecost have to do with one another and how you arrived at the ten days difference. To which you cited the Pentateuch. And I asked from which verse of the Holy Bible?

As a Christian, I read the Holy Bible only and know that it's from God, because He says so.
---christan on 8/30/13


\\I don't disagree that the first five books were taken from the Pentateuch.\\

Yes, you did at first. Read your own previous posts.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/30/13


Yeah Christan, Okay. Keep back pedaling man. LOL.
---Jed on 8/30/13


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"You clearly do NOT know the Scriptures (as I mentioned before) if you don't know the names for the different parts of the Bible."--Cluny

Unnecessary for some I guess. They simply need to stick to the same 10 randomly picked scriptures and lump them all together to "prove" their theology.

The penteteuch thing was quite humourous I must admit but I cant say Im surprised.
---LindaH on 8/30/13


"LOL. This is too funny! I seriously hope you're kidding! The Pentateuch is in the Bible." Jed

O foolish one, I don't disagree that the first five books were taken from the Pentateuch. Laugh all you want, but here's your problem - whatever Cluny has said, I challenged him to show us where in the Bible is it written to what he was trying to justify and he couldn't produce the verses but could only say it's from the Pentateuch. To me, that's not good enough, period.

That is, if you cannot produce what is said in the Scriptures to support your theory or understandings, the simple truth is you're lying. Continue laughing all you, because in the next life, it's "weeping and gnashing" forever and ever.
---christan on 8/29/13


christan:

Look up the Feast of Weeks (Shavuot in Hebrew). See Leviticus 23:15-16, also Exodus 34:22, Deuteronomy 16:16, 2 Chronicles 8:13. Of course "Pentecost" is not mentioned by name in the Old Testament as such, because it is a Greek word - so named because it is 50 days after Passover (i.e. 7 weeks after the next day). It's MUCH older than Acts.

You said: Anything that's not recorded in the Holy Bible can only mean one thing, it's the custom and traditions of man and not from God

There are many "traditions of men" the Bible does not record, but accepts as a given (e.g. baking bread, weaving cloth - they happen, but the Bible never gives recipes, etc.
---StrongAxe on 8/29/13


\\Your theory is based not on the Holy Bible teachings but that of one that's outside of the Holy Bible, and that according to the teachings of Paul, is a no no.\\

Actually, it isn't, as St. Paul didn't hesitate to quote extra-Biblical sources, such as in his sermon on Mars Hill.

As for the rest, Jed adequately handled it.

You clearly do NOT know the Scriptures (as I mentioned before) if you don't know the names for the different parts of the Bible.

Penteteuch, btw, means "five books".

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/28/13


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I was simply referring to the Holy Bible and not any other books outside of the Holy Bible. Bottomline for me as a Christian is, if it's not in the Holy Bible, we have nothing to discuss anymore.

Your theory is based not on the Holy Bible teachings but that of one that's outside of the Holy Bible...
Paul does not say "Penteteuch".

---christan on 8/28/13


LOL. This is too funny! I seriously hope you're kidding! The Pentateuch is in the Bible. The Pentateuch is the first five books of the Old Testament (Genesis - Deuteronomy), also known as the Torah. Also, everyone knows Pentecost is 50 days after Passover. The word actually means "The 50th Day" in Greek.
---Jed on 8/28/13


Cluny, it will do you well when I ask "Recorded? Where?" that I was simply referring to the Holy Bible and not any other books outside of the Holy Bible. Bottomline for me as a Christian is, if it's not in the Holy Bible, we have nothing to discuss anymore.

Your theory is based not on the Holy Bible teachings but that of one that's outside of the Holy Bible, and that according to the teachings of Paul, is a no no.

"ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." 2 Timothy 3:16,17

Paul does not say "Penteteuch".
---christan on 8/28/13


\\Recorded? Where?\\

In the Penteteuch, where the Feast of Weeks and Feast of First Fruits (two names for the same pilgrim feast) are described as coming 50 days after Passover.

\\ And where does it say that Pentecost was in relation to the Passover in the book of Acts?\\

I never said the connection was made in the book of Acts.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/26/13


You see, the thief's salvation was a classic case of saved by grace 100%.
He had no works to show except that he repented and believed Christ just before he died.
---christan on 8/25/13

(From another blog)
Like your post on this. Agree with you ....it occurred to me reading your post that the thief sowed and his crop is still yielding appx 2000yrs later. His initial work and latter.
His shared agony, recognition, shame and fearful hope of his appeal hits home with me and many. Recognition and redemption acknowledged by both/all suffering.
---Trav on 8/26/13


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Cluny,

Recorded? Where? And where does it say that Pentecost was in relation to the Passover in the book of Acts? Isn't Pentecost a known day that the "descent of the Holy Ghost came upon the apostles and the 120"? In fact, Pentecost is only mentioned three times in the Bible, with no relation to the Passover at all.

You keep cooking your own rubbish mingling the Passover with Pentecost when even the apostle Peter never made any such reference in Acts 2 or anywhere but only to that prophesy of Joel 2:28-32 that came to pass on Pentecost.

For goodness sake, stick to the context of the chapters. That is, Luke and Acts were speaking of two different events.
---christan on 8/26/13


moderator is right. matthew, mark, Luke and John are 4 difference views. it is just 4 peoples view of the life and ministry of Jesus Christ. that does not mean they contradict each other because the bible never contradicts on anything.
---shira4368 on 8/26/13


\\You see, I'm a simple man. Anything that's not recorded in the Holy Bible can only mean one thing, it's the custom and traditions of man and not from God.
\\

Quit trying to claim the moral high ground. It's not working.

It IS recorded in the Holy Bible that Shavuot is 50 days after Passover, and how it is to be calculated is written there. The very word "Pentecost" is from the Greek word for 50.

However, since you know neither the scriptures nor the power of God. it's understandable how you would err so greatly.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/25/13


Cluny, no disrespect to your knowledge of the Passover traditions of the Jews. You see, I'm a simple man. Anything that's not recorded in the Holy Bible can only mean one thing, it's the custom and traditions of man and not from God.

If anything is to go by from what you have said to be written in stone, I would have gladly sit here and listen to you all day. Sadly for you, I'm guided by the Holy Spirit through His Word. And His Word does not say "Shavuot (the Hebrew name for Pentecost) is 50 days after Pesach (Passover) among Jews."

Are you led by the traditions of the Jews or the Word of God?
---christan on 8/25/13


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\\I have no objection to Acts 1:3 being quoted. But where on earth did you get from the Holy Bible that "Pentecost is 50 days after Pesach, right?" Where? Where? Where?\\

I'm surprised you're so ignorant of what the Bible says.

This is discussed and laid down in the Pentateuch. Do your own homework.

To this day, Shavuot (the Hebrew name for Pentecost) is 50 days after Pesach (Passover) among Jews.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/25/13


"Pentecost is 50 days after Pesach, right? Do the math." Cluny

I have no objection to Acts 1:3 being quoted. But where on earth did you get from the Holy Bible that "Pentecost is 50 days after Pesach, right?" Where? Where? Where?

Your "logic" of math is based on convoluted analysis of what you think it is when it's not even mentioned as a fact in the Holy Bible. And that's because the Scripture does not even breathe nor say "120 were persevering in prayer in the Upper Room 10 days later"

It's one thing to speak what is written in the Scripture and another if it doesn't even say so. Simply put, that's lying!
---christan on 8/24/13


\\- Where did you get the "ten days" between the ascension and pentecost?\\

From reading the Bible.

Christ rose at Pesach (Passover) time, right?

Acts 1:3 says that the Risen Lord stayed on earth for 40 days after His Resurrection, and then ascended into Heaven. right?

Pentecost is 50 days after Pesach, right?

Do the math.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/23/13


\\ 1 Corinthians 15:6
After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once, ... \\
---Cluny

of all the times I've read this chapter, I've never once been under the impression that they all saw Him at the same time.

Funny thing, those little oversights that can make a difference

Good stuff.
---James_L on 8/24/13


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\\My *guess* is that many of those who saw him were those who he healed and personally forgiven before He was crucified, and they simply weren't called to tarry with the apostles.\\

Wrong guess.
1 Corinthians 15:6
After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once, ...

**- Where in the Scriptures does it say that the 120 were part of the 500 who witnessed the ascension? **

Where does it say they were not? And where does scripture say that 500 saw the ascension? Where did **I** say that?

**- And that the 120 were the only faithful ones remaining?**

Acts 1:15.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/23/13


Christan, read my entire post and quit quoting me out of context. As I already explained to you, I was only REPHRASING what Cluny said. I was neither supporting nor arguing with what he said. I was simply explaining what he meant since everyone had apparently misunderstood his question. That doesn't mean I am saying it too. Explaining what someone else is saying doesn't mean that's what you are saying too. Get a life and stop accusing me of stupid things just because you want to have something to say.
---Jed on 8/23/13


Are these words true or not?

I tell you that he will avenge them speedily.
Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, (shall he find faith) on the earth?

Let no man deceive you by any means:
for that day (shall not come), except there come a (falling away first), and that man of sin be (revealed), the son of perdition,

(I dont know, this just sounds so sad!)
Only Luke is with me. Take Mark, and bring him with thee: for he is profitable to me for the ministry.


But, fear not!
Luk_8:50, Luk_12:7, Luk_12:32

But what saith (the answer of God) unto him?
(I have reserved to myself seven thousand men),
who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Peace
---TheSeg on 8/23/13


Jesus ascended about 38 days days after he was raised. I don't think the 500 people who saw him (post-resurrection) were all at the same time or place. There were about a dozen people who saw him each day, on average.

My *guess* is that many of those who saw him were those who he healed and personally forgiven before He was crucified, and they simply weren't called to tarry with the apostles.

The 120 were probably the eleven, plus the seventy, a few women, a few of the pharisees (such as Nicodemus), maybe Lazarus and a handful of others close to Him
---James_L on 8/23/13


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Jed, I only know of you and your faith from what is written by you. Go back to your blog written on Aug 22, 2013 - you said,

"First, 500 people see the risen Christ. Then, 10 days later, only 120 are left persevering in prayer in the Upper Room. The question is about why only 120 out of the 500 who witnessed the resurrected Christ remained faithful?"

Questions:
- Where in the Scriptures does it say that the 120 were part of the 500 who witnessed the ascension?
- And that the 120 were the only faithful ones remaining?
- Where did you get the "ten days" between the ascension and pentecost?

You're simply bearing false witness to the Word.
---christan on 8/23/13


maybe I am grasping at straws but Acts says "Peter stood in front of the brothers (which numbered about 120)" and the subject was on picking a new apostle to replace Judas, so that could be just men. Where as Paul is talking in general to all persons both men, women, and children.
---Scott1 on 8/23/13


Christan, this was not my question. I was simply, explaining what it was that Cluny was actually saying because everyone was not understanding his question. You know nothing about me or my faith.
---Jed on 8/23/13


There is no attrition here. Paul calls the "above five hundred" brethren. Just because they were not in the upper room does not mean that they left the cause.
---trey on 8/22/13


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\\You're simply trying to gel two separate events into one, though Scripture doesn't say they were.
\\

Please tell me how I'm trying to conflate two separate events, in two separate Biblical books by two separate writers, into one event.

I NEVER claimed they were the same event.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/22/13


"The question is about why only 120 out of the 500 who witnessed the resurrected Christ remained faithful?" Jed

Both you and Cluny ask questions that seriously demonstrate your unbelief and foolishness to what is written in the Holy Bible. You're simply trying to gel two separate events into one, though Scripture doesn't say they were.

And where does it say in the Bible that the 120 were part of the 500 who witnessed the ascension of Christ? You are assuming what is not written, that constitutes to adding on to the Word. There's a consequence to that.

Instead of rejoicing that Christ ascended to the heavens as written and the Holy Spirit came as promised by God, you question about numbers, seriously?
---christan on 8/22/13


Cluny, my only comment to the original question at this time is this: Apparently, the old saying about "seeing is believing" doesn't hold much water.
---Jed on 8/22/13


The white canvass!
The artist told me, it was a picture of a cow eating grass.

I said were the grass? He said the cow eat it!
So were the cow? Why should he hang around were there no grass!

Next he showed me a picture of a glass half filled with water.
He asked is the glass half filled or half empty?
Right away, I thought half filled, right!
But actually there is no glass!

Joh_6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Joh_6:66 From that time many of (his disciples) went back, and walked no more with him.

Half filled or half empty?
Peace
---TheSeg on 8/22/13


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But . . . it does not say in the Bible that only the 120 were faithful.

Paul clearly says the "main part" of the 500 remained until when Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 15.

"Remaining does not necessarily mean they were still faithful. They could have been just alive, but not alive in faith."

Oh. That is a consideration. Cluny, you could have a point then.

Why, if this is the case? Seeing is not believing, maybe? Thinking it so is not always the same as being faithful in one's character.

Not to mention . . . how faithful were the twelve, at first . . . when they refused to believe Mary????

They could have become faithful, later. Pray for ones who fail. God is able with them, too!
---willie_c: on 8/22/13


\\The question is about why only 120 out of the 500 who witnessed the resurrected Christ remained faithful?
---Jed on 8/22/13\\

Bingo, Jed.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/22/13


"I don't know why people are missing this point."
Cluny

I got it as I believe that perseverance or lack thereof is the direct cause of only a "few chosen".

Examples:
Matthew 21:43 "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."
Matthew 24:13 "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."
---Nana on 8/22/13


Lol. Everyone including the Moderator has completely missed what Cluny is even asking. His post in no way suggests a conflict in different accounts of the same event, which is what everyone else seems to think is happening here. He is talking about two different events. First, 500 people see the risen Christ. Then, 10 days later, only 120 are left persevering in prayer in the Upper Room. The question is about why only 120 out of the 500 who witnessed the resurrected Christ remained faithful?
---Jed on 8/22/13


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\\I am sure the real Cluny is competent enough to make this distinction. So, is somebody pretending to be Cluny, in posting this blog question????
---willie_c: on 8/22/13\\

It's the real Orthodox Cluny who posted this blog question, which is more a comment on the lack of human perseverance than anything else.

I don't know why people are missing this point.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/22/13


Matthew 20:16 "So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen."
---Nana on 8/22/13


Paul was NOT there, neither was Luke. That would leave Matthew as the eyewitness so I would have to go with Matthew on this one. Matthew agrees with John who gives us the account of Thomas' doubt.
---barb on 8/22/13


Well, let's see what Paul writes, in 1 Corinthians 15:1-8 > first Jesus appears to the apostles, then to five hundred, then again to the apostles.

About the "five hundred", Paul clearly does say that "the greater part remain to the present". So, clearly the greater part of the five hundred were still around when Paul wrote this. Surely "the greater part" of five hundred would be more than 120. So, that number of 120 is not relevant, which was before Paul wrote this.

I am sure the real Cluny is competent enough to make this distinction. So, is somebody pretending to be Cluny, in posting this blog question????
---willie_c: on 8/22/13


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christan, you're missing my point.

Why did some doubt what they were seeing at Christ's Ascension?

Why were there not 500 in the Upper Room at Pentecost instead of only 120?

As someone else pointed out, why did not the other 9 lepers thank Jesus?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/22/13


Funny how some "interpret" Scriptures according to their own foolish understanding. What has the five hundred who witnessed Christ's ascension to do with what happened in the upper room? Both were separate events. So, there's no attrition to any of these two accounts.

And anyways in the upper room, Christ never appeared to the 120 Jews who were present. The event was Pentecost, the promise of the blessing of the Holy Spirit.

So, don't confuse yourself and others.
---christan on 8/21/13


Luk_17:17 And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where are the nine?

You know!
Peace
---TheSeg on 8/21/13


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