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Does Jesus Save

Does fallen man have the right to save himself if he so wants? Please give Scripture.

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 ---Mark_V. on 8/25/13
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Ruben
No one, but no one, can withstand God!
Mar_1:15And saying, (The time is fulfilled), and the kingdom of God is at hand:
repent ye, and (believe the gospel.)

Luk_1:73-79To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.
Luk_4:18-21This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears!

So you believe in Joh_6:66,these walked away from God?
Can't be they understood the words?
No man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father!

Can't be when Christ asked the twelve (Will ye also go away?) They like many here didn't understand, The Word?
Joh_6:70Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
Peace
---TheSeg on 8/30/13


\\1) Sheep left on his own.\\

One thing about this wandering sheep.

It wasn't bad, or wicked, or rebellious. Sheep aren't smart enough to be any of these.

It was simply doing as sheep do--meandering from one tuft of grass to the next, biting, chewing, and munching.

But it still got separated from the flock, and therefore from the Shepherd. It was JUST AS LOST as if it had deliberately run away.

Think about it.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/30/13


TheSeg * In short you are saying someone can just walk away from God.


No, scripture does:

(God)Father, give me my share of the estate. So he divided his share"(LK 15:11)

"From this time many of his(Jesus) disciples turned back and no longer Followed him" (JHN 6:66)


TheSeg * How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?

1) Sheep left on his own.

2) You need to repent before he gets you,

" There will be more rejocing in heaven over one sinner who repents (LK 15:7)
---Ruben on 8/30/13


jerry6593, if according to your understanding that "Our actions are determined by the choices we make", then what has been written in Isaiah 46:11 is nothing but a lie or you're a liar. Take your "pick". As for me, I rather believe Isaiah 46:11.

A classic support to Isaiah 46:11 is found in Acts 4:27,28, "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."

Where's your support to what you have claimed? You have none!
---christan on 8/30/13


Nana, char, Ruben - here's bad news for your freewill theology. According to Scriptures, it doesn't exist. The Word of God is not about CHOICE specific but ACTION specific. God explicitly declares that what happens in this world and to mankind is by His will, period. It's written in Isaiah 46:11,-Christan

Did you not need to be born again or did God do it for you?

Do you not need to believe that God send his only Son for us or did God already told you he was?

Do you not need to be baptize or did God do this for you?

Those are choices you have to make, he does not do it for you!
---Ruben on 8/30/13




christan: "The Word of God is not about CHOICE specific but ACTION specific."

(Whatever that means.) Go back to school. Our actions are determined by the choices we make. Do YOUR actions conform to the will of God? Do you obey all TEN of His Commandments? Or do you CHOOSE not to obey some of them?



---jerry6593 on 8/30/13


Nana, char, Ruben - here's bad news for your freewill theology. According to Scriptures, it doesn't exist. The Word of God is not about CHOICE specific but ACTION specific. God explicitly declares that what happens in this world and to mankind is by His will, period. It's written in Isaiah 46:11,

"Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass, I have purposed it, I will also do it."

Even the birds move and die according to His purpose and will, what more the man that's made of dust. Hence, the doctrine of predestination. Believe it or not, it's not going to change God's will one iota, He's decided from eternity.
---christan on 8/29/13


Then Ruben this must be a lie!
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

In short you are saying someone can just walk away from God.
Forgive me, but you really have no clue as to who your Father is, do you?

Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

Where did you read God will just let you walk away?
How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
Peace
---TheSeg on 8/29/13


char,

I agree completely. Thank you for putting the original scripture source.

The sequence of events is important,
The announcement:
Isaiah 28:14 "Wherefore hear the word of the Lord..."
The issue:
v15: "Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death..."
The repercussion:
v16: "Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste."

:)

>>>>>>>><<<<<<<

It is evident that God creating "a chief corner stone" put an stop to the dreams and hopes of "scornful men"(Isaiah 28:14).
---Nana on 8/29/13


Markv, God planned to save sinners before the foundation of the world. God also promised Jesus a bride, called the Church, who would be joint heirs with Christ, never ever promised to Adam and Eve OR earthly Israel. THAT is what was for-ordained...the NEW MAN, a NEW CREATURE unlike anything before. Those He would raise to a position above the Angels. Something so new and different, it was kept secret until His resurrection. And this NEW CREATURE came into existence through identification with Jesus in death and resurrection life, having died to the old creation in every way.

A NEW CREATURE who is not even Israel, new or old.

Because you lack THAT foundation of truth, everything you believe is based on conjecture.
---kathr4453 on 8/29/13




christan * And I , neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. John 10:27-29



1) Jesus said hear, know and follow are continuing process not a one-time event! Had he said 'heard, knew and followed then you have a point!

2) Yes God will not pluck out of his hand but he will let you leave ex:

" (God) Father, give me my share of the estate, so he (God the Father) divided his property "(LK 15:11)

Later on (God the Father) says " For my son of mine was dead and is ALIVE AGAIN"(LK 15:24)

Here you are in his hand but want out, he lets you go, repent and he is waiting for you. You are consider dead when you leave but if you repent you are alive again like the scripture tell us.
---Ruben on 8/29/13


I Pet 2:8 "And a Stone of stumbling, and a Rock of offence, (even to them which stumble at the word,) being disobedient: (whereunto also they were appointed.)"

Elohyim appoints His word to Israel- First. (Called:first born-Ex4:22)

'set apart'Israel as His witness(Isa43:12) of His character -to mankind. His Word - In flesh 'thy seed be called'Gen21:12,Rom9:7,Hbr11:18
As witnessed throughout His Word,Israel continues to "walk" the crooked path.
However,
"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, and holy nation, a peculiar people, that ye should shew forth the praises of Him Who hath called you out of darkness into His marvellous light:"I Pet 2:9

(generation - the fig tree)
---char on 8/29/13


Kathr, as I said before, you cannot give Truth because you don't know the Truth. After all the talk you made, you say,
"Yet Markv believes the gospel is ...ME ME, I can't believe God picked ME."
If you cannot believe that God chose you before the foundation of the world to be saved, then you are not saved. Because if you were saved you would believe it.
"Just as He chose us in Him (Christ) before the foundation of the world, that we (believers) should be holy and without blame before Him in love" (Eph. 1:4). The very Word of God that you just rejected, because you do not believe.
You still show the emnity against God because it bothers you that God made the choice, not you.
---Mark_V. on 8/29/13


I Peter 2:6 "Wherefore also it is contained in the Scripture, "Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on Him shall not be confounded."

I Peter 2:7 "Unto you therefore which believe He is precious: (but unto them which be disobedient), the Stone Which the builders disallowed, (the same is made a head of the corner,")

Why?

"Because ye have said, "We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement, when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:". (Isaiah 28:15)
---char on 8/29/13


"Those verses agree with: "Yes, God will not cast you out. But he will let you walk away", Ruben" Nana

You and Ruben delude yourselves into thinking the man has a freewill to do as he likes and God will not stop them. You quote Isaiah 1:2-4 to justify what Ruben has said but nowhere in Isaiah does it even imply of such a reasoning that God will let you walk away from him.

You see, being disobedient to God is purposed by Him. Peter explicitly declared, "being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed", which now we now that those mentioned in Isaiah or anywhere in the Scriptures who are disobedient is because "they also were appointed", ie predestined.
---christan on 8/28/13


Isaiah 1:2_4 "Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me. The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider. Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward."

Those verses agree with: "Yes, God will not cast you out. But he will let you walk away", Ruben
---Nana on 8/28/13


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Yes. Elohyim has given His Word spoken and written.

He warns us of the adversary so we are without excuse.

The mark Gen 3:15, Gen 4:14

John 10:23 "And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch."

'Solomons servants'

Nephinims entered into service for the Temple and had taken over the duties that was appointed only to the scribes of Judah. It is how the traditions of men slip into the records. (1Kgs 9:20-21,Ezra 2:59)

John 10:26 "But ye believe not, because ye are not of My sheep, as I said unto you."

Matthew 23:2, "the scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses seat:"
---char on 8/28/13


"Yes, God will not cast you out. But he will let you walk away" Ruben

Sad to say but Scripture does not support your understanding one bit, and that's according to Christ:

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." John 10:27-29

The very fact that "you walk away" is prove you were never even His to begin with. The call of salvation is irresistible, period.
---christan on 8/28/13


Shira, do you remember when you got saved? I remember when I did. And let me say, from that day until now preaching the Gospel is my heart. God put that there. If not, the church would be dead. We His body are to continue the WORK God began, that is preaching the Gospel.

Those verses in Philippians one are not about our sanctification. Yet, sanctified means being SET APART for the sake of the Gospel. Yes, we are also being sanctified, as Paul teaches in Romans 6-8 and many other places, yet Philippians 1:6 is about the fellowship in the work of the ministry...that is preaching the Gospel to lost sinners. That's all I've been doing here since I came to CN almost 10 years ago....preaching CHRIST CRUCIFIED.
---kathr4453 on 8/28/13


Markv, do yourself a favor and read Philippians chapter one. The whole chapter IF YOU CAN. I know that may be taxing on your tiny pea brain, but COUNT how many times the word GOSPEL is used in Chapter one. Now read the context of every sentence using the word GOSPEL in Chapter one, if you have the intelligence to read and comprehend sentences as a whole. Then paragraphs as a whole, then chapters as a whole, then BOOKS as a whole.

I understand "as a WHOLE". Your bits and pieces taken out of context only fall into a hole. Do you know the difference between those two words? They sound the same, but are not the same. It takes INTELLIGENCE to know the difference.
---kathr4453 on 8/28/13


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kathr, I totally agree with you. we do have works but not for salvation but because of salvation. one must wonder when a Christian does not show anything for Christ. I do believe that is what markv was saing.
---shira4368 on 8/28/13


THE GOSPEL: stated in 1st Corinthians 15 is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. PERIOD. This is what Paul said he preached, CHRIST CRUCIFIED. He said that is ALL he would ever preach. God forbid that I would preach anything but Christ Crucified. AKA: THE GOSPEL. Paul's own words.

Yet Markv believes the gospel is ...ME ME, I can't believe God picked ME. Totally SELF SERVING, selfish a me myself and I false gospel.

Now read the WHOLE BIBLE Markv, and underline every verse using GOSPEL. I assure you, it's about JESUS CHRIST.....not you.
---kathr4453 on 8/28/13


Kathr, you are wrong again, because you show no good works at all. They should be evident and they are not. The fruits you display are the opposite. The passage does not in anyway indicate the works mention were the good deeds they were doing, but the Work God was doing the in lives of the believers he was talking to and praying for.
I do thank God for the work He is doing in your life also, He is allowing you to continue in sin, to maybe bring you to a greater faith. All of us need chastening at sometime or another. If you are not chasten, then you are illegitimate and not a child of God. So no, you are not complete, there is much work that has to be done on you.
---Mark_V. on 8/28/13


COMPLETE is not used in that verse... The words "will preform" are.We are already COMPLETE in Him. We are not "completed some day later" . You make salvation sound like it is not COMPLETE the moment we are saved. Unless you teach a works salvation, not yet complete.
Are we not complete NOW in Christ? If you died today, are you, according to your understanding incomplete?
Also Hebrews tells us, we have been sanctified through the BODY OF CHRIST.....perfected FOREVER. "Until the Day of Jesus Christ " .....could be 500 years from now. Will YOU be alive then, or are HIS works going to be continued" in you" after you are dead? IN YOU then, may refer to the whole body of Christ...not YOU personally.
---kathr4453 on 8/28/13


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The good work here in Philippians 1 is THE PREACHING OF THE GOSPEL. For those who care to read ALL verses before and after. And YES that GOOD WORK will continue in HIS BODY the CHURCH until the day of Jesus Christ.

Regardless of how long it will be before the return of Jesus Christ...the Gospel of GRACE will be preached through the Body of Christ, His Church on earth.

Markv has never had THAT work even begin in him. Because THAT WORK preaches WHOSOEVER WILL.
So Markv, if you want to continue to insult HIS BODY, with your slams and insults, go ahead. WE KNOW what GOOD WORK has begin in US....HIS BODY, since WE ARE HIS hands and feet on this earth today continuing what HE BEGAN at the CROSS.
---kathr4453 on 8/28/13


James, you highjacked the passage in (Phil. 1:6). Don't you guys feel any shame for doing what you guys do everyday with the word of God?

"being confident of this very thing, that He (God) who has begun a good work in you, will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ" Paul was thanking God for the work God begun in those believers and would complete His work in them until the day of Jesus Christ. Sanctifying them.
Kathr, talks a lot on one post with no Scripture, then on another she post passages with no explanation other to say we know nothing. That is not an explanation of the passages. Nana the same, and so does Linda. You guys should be ashame that each day you fight for the rights of sinful man instead of God.
---Mark_V. on 8/28/13


Ok Richard....

So good works, here, as we discussed is AFTER one is saved, having nothing to do with the blog question.

And to the last comment.....since you believe your own theory about the Spirit, and not God, what can I say.

Acts clearly says the Holy Spirit is given to those who OBEY.

So you all have one spirit, and others here have the Spirit according to TRUTH of the scriptures.

The thing now is just to wait and see if you are mislead, or if God is a liar.

I'm sticking to scripture, and will believe GOD and HIS TRUTH.

If it doesn't work out for some here, you are without excuse.
---kathr4453 on 8/28/13


Does fallen man have the right to save himself if he so wants? Please give Scripture.
---Mark_V. on 8/25/13
this question should be rephrased as such:

Does fallen man have the privilege to all on God to save him? Please give Scripture.
---francis on 8/27/13


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Kathr

When do Good Work begin : I didn't look it up but as I recall Good Works are consider Good after being born of the Spirit, -- Let's take Wheat and Tares, One groups works are Good in the Lord eyes the other not, One Group been born of the Spirit the other not, Why ?

Lord will direct your heart into the Love of God, -2 Thessalonians 3:5

How do we love God ?

John 14:15 - If you love me, Keep my commandments, ( Good Works - The love of God is a Love of works, )

Jesus starts the Work and Finishes Work , Jesus direct his chosen in to loving him - All Gods work , He loses None !

Can man make himself Born of the Spirit ?

---RICHARDC on 8/27/13


\\ Phillippians 1,6 ... he who has begun a good work in you, complete it until the day of Jesus Christ \\
---RICHARDC on 8/27/13

You've taken that verse way out of context. Paul was commending the Philippians (Macedonians) for their [financial] fellowship in the gospel (v 5). THAT is the good work which God began in them.

They had bankrolled some of Paul's missionary work (see 2Cor 8:1-15, 9:1-14)
---James_L on 8/27/13


Richard, when did the "good work " in you begin? Before you were saved, or after ?

Do you know the difference between justification and sanctification?

We're you given to Jesus by God, or does Jesus bring/give you to God?

I believe scripture teaches we are reconciled TO GOD through Jesus Christ, not the other way around.
---kathr4453 on 8/27/13


and the Truth will set both of you free from the bondage you are both in.
---Mark_V. on 8/27/13

Markv, I am free, and I was set free from the bondage of sin THROUGH THE CROSS. Through dying with Christ, I was set free from Sin, and now I live in the LIBERTY that is IN THE RISEN CHRIST.

You are in bondage to lies and a false gospel, of which there are many. It's evident you are following a false Gospel. Your's has NO CROSS.

But I will always keep you in my prayers, Although the truth has been told here over and over, yet you have failed to be set free. That's because satan has brainwashed you to believe YOU have no choice. Your bondage is in his lies.
---kathr4453 on 8/27/13


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"( The Sheep Follow they don't walk away, , The Father and the Son Don't loses any, )"
RICHARDC on 8/27/13

Totally disagre.
Matthew 10:6 "But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Lost sheep raised by God, (Isaiah 1:2)!
Psalm 80:14_15 "Return, we beseech thee, O God of hosts: look down from heaven, and behold, and visit this vine, And the vineyard which thy right hand hath planted, and the branch that thou madest strong for thyself."

How think you they got lost? By their own doing of course.
Jesus said, "Learn from me", learn:
John 8:29 "And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone, for I do always those things that please him."
---Nana on 8/27/13


John 6:39 - And this is the Father will which hath sent me, that all which he hath given me, I should lose nothing, but should raise up again at the last Day,

John 10:27 - My Sheep hear my voice, and I know Them, and they follow me
John 10:28 - And I give them eternal life, And they shall never perish neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand,
john 10:29 - My Father which gave them me , is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my father's hand,

( The Sheep Follow they don't walk away, , The Father and the Son Don't loses any, )

Phillippians 1,6 Being Confident of this very thing, that he who has begun a good work in you, complete it until the day of Jesus Christ,
---RICHARDC on 8/27/13


Christan "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father."

Yes, God will not cast you out. But he will let you walk away,

" The Son said to his father. (God)Father , give me my share of the estate" (LK 15:11)

" From this time many of his(Jesus) disciples turned back and no longer followed him" (JHN 6:66)

In both cases neither the father and Jesus call them back!
---Ruben on 8/27/13


Marks, your ignorance is astounding. Everything in the OT tabernacle is a picture of salvation. 1st, only the HIGH priest could enter into the Holy of Holies where is a picture of the presence of God. NO man could enter into the Holy of Holies without blood. And the High priest had to offer OVER AND OVER that type and shadow to enter in.

Now JESUS has entered in, once and for all, through HIS OWN BLOOD for you and me. And NOW through Christ and HIS SHED BLOOD can we all come boldly to the throne of GRACE to find mercy.

But because you have no FOUNDATION of salvation to begin with, your false doctrine is climbing over some other way. We come to GOD through the FINISHED work of Christ, that is His death and resurrection.
---kathr4453 on 8/27/13


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Markv needs a lesson in salvation 101. If this is not your foundation of salvation, then you are climbing over some other way. An illegitimate.

Luke 23:45
And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.

Hebrews 6:19
Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil,

Hebrews 9:3
And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all,
Hebrews 10:19
By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh,
The NEW AND LIVING WAY IS:. It's the ONLY WAY.
I AM CRUCIFIED WITH CHRIST.
---kathr4453 on 8/27/13


Isaiah 1:18 "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD..."
After doing all that the lORD Commanded, it should be easy to reason with him.

Matthew 16:7 "And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have taken no bread."

Correction of wrong reasoning:

Matthew 16:11_12 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees? Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees."

Yet, who hath reasoned ever with a Lisa-rd? Why, it has no mind to speak of!
---Nana on 8/27/13


Trav * Only GOD can draw a man through Christ.

And how does God do that , does he choose which man he wants? Or does man have to do his part...
---Ruben on 8/26/13

I'd say both. I'd say you know the answer if you were drawn. The rich man recognized. He was drawn to Christ and many more were as well. He couldn't pay the price.....giving up the world/his riches.

GOD can do anything he wants. My points are to not distort what GOD says in scripture. He chose Israel for a wife. The were adulterous...he divorced them. He cannot remarry his love unless he dies. Which Christ did. So we see verses like,Mat_15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
---Trav on 8/27/13


Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have NO pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways, for why will ye die, O house of Israel? --- Ezekiel 33:11

A man's HEART deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps--- Proverbs 16:9

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and NOT for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world - 1 John 2:2

MarkV, go look up the word "heart" in Hebrew. It means "will, mind, inner man". MAN chooses. God gave that to us. With that power also comes responsibility and consequences for abusing it.
---LindaH on 8/27/13


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Today is a different story. We now live AFTER His Resurrection ...
---kathr4453 on 8/26/13

He is not a changing GOD. He told what he will do through his prophets. If one doesn't believe them.....

Judah does not equal all Israel. There were 12 actually 13 in the family. Judah/Benjamin was not divorced. The rest were...the Northern House, the Lost Sheep,the Virgins etc.
Mat_10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat_15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat_18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

Jer 31:31/Heb8:8. The Covenant made "again" with both Houses/sticks becoming one again soon.
---Trav on 8/27/13


man cannot save himself. only God thru His Son is the door to salvation. john 3:16 is the one that comes in my mind this late at night.
---shira4368 on 8/27/13


Linda, you do not twist Scripture because all you do is talk and don't give Scripture. There is no twisting of Scripture when we give it, we write it down for you, and yet you reject it, like most others. Kathr does a lot of talking to and doesn't put a passage down. And to this day, none of you have given one passage where God stated that He gave man a will that is free. Not one. You and her should stop talking and start studying the God of the Bible, and the Truth will set both of you free from the bondage you are both in.
---Mark_V. on 8/27/13


Kathr, you misterpret passages at the expense of another passage. You said,
"No one can come TO the FATHER except Through the Son" In the context this is not speaking about salvation, Jesus was anwering Thomas question,
"Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way" The way where Jesus was going. Jesus said He was the way to God.
John had already told us in (John 6:44) Jesus answered the coming down from heaven (v.42) Jesus told them not to murmur among themselves. He said,
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day" With your dumb theology you contradict the word of God.
---Mark_V. on 8/27/13


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When Jesus said, no one can be drawn to me except by the Father, ...... Jesus was in the flesh talking face to face with JEWS, before the cross. And EXACTLY what was the message then ? That Jesus died, shed His blood and rose again from the dead for the forgiveness of sin? NO!

If that were the case, why say something like " ONLY GO TO THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL?" FOR JEWS ONLY! Jesus would never say to a Gentile, "except THE FATHER draw him" .because Gentiles never referred to God as "THE FATHER" ..not THEN anyway.

NOW, THROUGH THE CROSS, He is our "ABBA" FATHER...to both Jew and Gentile, being united with Christ in death and resurrection life , God is now our "ABBA DADDY".
---kathr4453 on 8/27/13


Christian, Please show scripture where Jacob, the unborn baby, was elected TO SALVATION? And Rebecca's other unborn baby was not?

Was the conversation Rebecca had with God about SALVATION? Have you actually research that verse in Romans with those in Genesis?

No Christan has not, and has FAILED the maturity test.

Nowhere does God or Paul or anyone teach or preach any GENTILE was elect "to salvation" from the womb. Ephesians says you were totally separated from God, and the covenants of PROMISE. Jacob's election was God's Covenant with Abraham. Has nothing to do with you Christan, although you did in the end reap the promise of salvation like anyone else, Jew or Gentile. Galatians 4: 5-7.
---kathr4453 on 8/27/13


He couldn't because he wasn't "drawn by the Father", period.
---christan on 8/26/13


Actually scripture says he wouldn't follow Christ because he loved his riches too much to give them up

A man can take one liners from every book of the Bible and literally form his own god. That doesnt mean the man has accurately reflected the God of scripture. Satan twists scripture as well.

Theres a difference betwen knowing about God, and knowing God.

When you know his love, the scriptures become crystal clear. One day I hope you experience it.
---LindaH on 8/26/13


Only GOD can draw a man through Christ.
---Trav on 8/26/13

Trav, can you back up your statement through scripture? I believe scripture teaches we are DRAWN "to" Christ by the Holy Spirit who empowers the WORD of God, that is, the Gospel Message, who after receiving the Truth Jesus Christ THEN brings us TO the Father.

No one can come TO the FATHER except Through the Son. Jesus was made flesh SO THAT man could have a relationship with God.

Now BEFORE the Cross, those In ISRAEL who already belonged TO GOD, were called out for SERVICE. They already had faith in the coming Messiah.

Today is a different story. We now live AFTER His Resurrection where Jesus said IF I BE LIFTED UP I WILL DRAW ALL MEN UNTO ME.
---kathr4453 on 8/26/13


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amen kathr, I thank God for your stand here on christianet. markv will never accept the truth.
---shira4368 on 8/26/13


"Without God it is impossible to be saved, you must follow him!" Ruben

You're saying the rich man did not follow Christ because "he chose not to"? Really? Scripture said that?

It is true that when a sinner saved by the grace of God, he/she WILL FOLLOW Christ. You don't follow Christ to be saved (that's your doctrine). You follow because you're saved.

Now back to the rich man, know why he could't follow Christ? Jesus declared, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him... Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father."

He couldn't because he wasn't "drawn by the Father", period.
---christan on 8/26/13


"Are you saying that God send his Son for some and not for everyone?" Ruben

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father."

"And how does God do that , does he choose which man he wants?"

"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth" - which means His election of the sinner is UNCONDITIONAL!
---christan on 8/26/13


Now satan has taken what God calls His foolishness, that is to save those who believe, believe in the FINISHED WORKS OF CHRIST, that is, His death and resurrection, that Satan cannot stand it, and has turned it into a doctrine of demons.

There is no scripture or doctrine to back up anything Calvinism teaches. It's a THEORY, called a PHILOSOPHY. And Philosophy deals with human wisdom called GNOSIS.

They show human wisdom here over and over, however FAITH/ belief is not dependent on human wisdom. It's the OPPOSITE.

WE cannot die for our own sin, and rise from the dead of our own power.

Jesus rose from the dead BECAUSE His PERFECT SACRIFICE for our sin was acceptable to God.
---kathr4453 on 8/26/13


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James 4:8

8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners, and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

Who was James talking to here? And is James a liar?
---kathr4453 on 8/26/13


That is why the word of God was made flesh to save. and it does save who so ever believes in it.
---Bryan on 8/26/13


Trav * My point was....the word all. All are not drawn. And some of the ones that are refuse as you point out.

Are you saying that God send his Son for some and not for everyone?

Trav * Only GOD can draw a man through Christ.

And how does God do that , does he choose which man he wants? Or does man have to do his part and 'listen and learn from the Father in order to be drawn to Jesus?
---Ruben on 8/26/13


Marks, Jesus saves. Will you ever move on and mature in Christ? It doesn't look like you have in all the years you've been here. You have stunted your growth. Obsessed with issues not even an issue. Satan's little filibuster joke on you. But folks, it doesn't have to be on you.

Markv has taken over with these Stupid questions. Same ol same ol questions and answers.

How many times does Markv have to hear the same answers? Bad memory Markv ? No, that's not it. He loves arguing and calling names. Wake up.
---kathr4453 on 8/26/13


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Trav what is in your life do you lack to enter etrnal life. Jesus tells us examine (deny) yourself daily, pickup your cross and follow him'(LK 9:23)
---Ruben on 8/26/13

No argument above.
We just drifted off the subject of "all".

My point was....the word all. All are not drawn. And some of the ones that are refuse as you point out.

Only GOD can draw a man through Christ.
---Trav on 8/26/13


Trav * One rich Israelite man does not equal "all".
Rich man was drawn and refused.
So as a matter of fact he didn't.
A clear message is given in
Joh_6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The Father send the rich man to Jesus but he refuse to give up his possessions to have eternal life! And who are those who the Father sends " Everyone who listens and learns from him comes to me.(JHN6:45) The rich man like me and you could go to Jeus but refuse to listen to him! Trav what is in your life do you lack to enter etrnal life. Jesus tells us examine (deny) yourself daily, pickup your cross and follow him'(LK 9:23)
---Ruben on 8/26/13


"Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?" (Romans 9:21)

God not only has the "right" but the "power". However, a person "dead" in sins does not have the life, never mind the power. So, having some "right" to "do it yourself" would be useless . . . "a mockery".

But Peter did preach for people to "save yourselves" > according some number of translations. If God says "save yourselves", is He mocking people, knowing they of themselves can't do this? Or is He speaking what He means to do in union with them, sharing His own sufficiency of His grace? (1 Corinthians 6:17)
---willie_c: on 8/26/13


\\cluny, what ails you? I always capitalie God, Jesus, Him when it refers to Jesus. all forms of deity sould be capitalized. I sure don't think Im anything special. I am nothing but I am God's child.
---shira4368 on 8/26/13\\

The real question is what ails Gordon that he writes God in ALL caps, the way he does.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/26/13


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Did Christ say, "But, all can choose Salvation, if they want it."? Stop deluding yourself.
---christan on 8/26/13

In matter of fact he did, in this scripture verse you choose , Jesus told the Rich man:
---Ruben on 8/26/13

One rich Israelite man does not equal "all".
Rich man was drawn and refused.
So as a matter of fact he didn't.

A clear message is given in
Joh_6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Mat 19:30 But many that are first shall be last, and the last shall be first.
Judah was appealed to first and denied....Nth house of 10 divorced are last but will be first accepting.
---Trav on 8/26/13


"if you believe man somehow steals Gods glory by choosing to believe in Gods promises, then you have been brainwashed."
---LindaH on 8/26/13

Absolutely!

Romans 10:11_17 "For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved....But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?..."

Of non-believers thereof it is said:

Romans 3:3 "For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?"
---Nana on 8/26/13


"Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible..."

Did Christ say, "But, all can choose Salvation, if they want it."? Stop deluding yourself.
---christan on 8/26/13

In matter of fact he did, in this scripture verse you choose , Jesus told the Rich man:

Go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in Heaven. THEN COME, Followed ME."

When the young man heard this, he went away" (MT 19:20-22)

Without God it is impossible to be saved, you must follow him!
---Ruben on 8/26/13


/Does fallen man have the right to save himself if he so wants/

No.

John 3 (all)
13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He That came down from heaven, even the Son of man Which is in heaven."

14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:"

15 "That whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."

16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Believe what?
[Y'sha] Exist YHVH Savior-Immanuel,God with us-Son of God-Death and resurrection defeated death - wages for Sin--Paid.
---char on 8/25/13


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"Does fallen man have the right to save himself if he so wants?" No.
"Fallen man" does not even have the desire to be saved, "having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart. They do not know nor understand. For he (Satan>2 Cor. 4:4) has shut their eyes, so that they cannot see, And their hearts, so that they cannot understand. And [mankind], who once were alienated and enemies in [our] mind by wicked works, yet now He> has reconciled. God demonstrate[d] His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Salvation is of the LORD."
---Josef on 8/25/13


Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


Judges 10:15 And the children of Israel said unto the LORD, We have sinned: do thou unto us whatsoever seemeth good unto thee, deliver us only, we pray thee, this day.

Judges 10:16 And they put away the strange gods from among them, and served the LORD: and his soul was grieved for the misery of Israel.

I could go through this over and over again
and what you will see is that people call upon God to save them, and God reponds to their plea for salvation

Can man save himself. NO
But man can call on God to save him, and man can reject God and serve other gods as indicated in the book of Judged and Samuel
---francis on 8/26/13


"Mankind cannot save himself. It's impossible. For all have sinned, all are stained with sin. But, all can choose Salvation, if they want it." Gordon

What a classic definition to the word "contrary" you have just demonstrated in your profession.

You obviously do not even have a clue to what the word "impossible" even means. How do you even "choose" something that to begin with is declared "impossible for man" to do by Christ?

"Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible..."

Did Christ say, "But, all can choose Salvation, if they want it."? Stop deluding yourself.
---christan on 8/26/13


Sounds like a loaded blog question from a very narrow perspective.

The person calling for help is never accredited with being his/her own savior, no matter what the situation.

Its not a matter of intelligence. Its a matter of wisdom.
Man calls upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus saves him.
Its simple. Jesus gets the glory - not the man.

If you believe man somehow steals Gods glory by choosing to believe in Gods promises, then you have been brainwashed.
---LindaH on 8/26/13


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Cluny, great answer you gave. I don't think that francis read it.

francis, I ask for Scripture that will show the ability of man to be able to save himself. You gave many passages and none of them say man can save himself. Keep looking.

Gordon, all man make choices, but lost man never makes a choice for Christ. Why? Because Jesus tells us in (Matt. 19:26) that with man salvation is impossible, and the Word of God also says, that no one lost seeks after God (Rom. 3:11). If you have scripture to indicate fallen man can choose Christ and that those passages I gave are false, write the passages down.
---Mark_V. on 8/26/13


cluny, what ails you? I always capitalie God, Jesus, Him when it refers to Jesus. all forms of deity sould be capitalized. I sure don't think Im anything special. I am nothing but I am God's child.
---shira4368 on 8/26/13


\\GOD offers, man chooses to accept it or reject it. :-)
---Gordon on 8/25/13\\

Do you think you're being super spiritual by spelling "God" in all caps?

If you were being the hypercorrect person you thought you were being by spelling the Hebrew form of "Jesus" with a non-standard transliteration, you would write, "G-d."

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/25/13


Mankind cannot save himself. It's impossible. For all have sinned, all are stained with sin.

But, all can choose Salvation, if they want it.

GOD offers, man chooses to accept it or reject it. :-)
---Gordon on 8/25/13


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Jesus is our only savior, but man is able to save others.
---Steveng on 8/25/13


---Mark_V. on 8/25/13
WHY? why do you want scripture?
From what I have seen from you, scripture does not matter

Judges 2:13 And they forsook the LORD, and served Baal and Ashtaroth.

1 Samuel 7:4 Then the children of Israel did put away Baalim and Ashtaroth, and served the LORD only


1 Samuel 12:10 And they cried unto the LORD, and said, We have sinned, because we have forsaken the LORD, and have served Baalim and Ashtaroth: but now deliver us out of the hand of our enemies, and we will serve thee.

1 Kings 18:21 And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him
---francis on 8/25/13


We are unable to bring our Spirit back to life. That is why we except Jesus He has that ability only. With out him it is impossible.
---Bryan on 8/25/13


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