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Divisions In The Bible

Who knows from where the currently accepted chapter and verse divisions of the Bible came? When were they first used? Are they of divine or merely human authority? Discuss.

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 ---Cluny on 9/4/13
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Strongaxe, what I have found out that for others, I am not talking about Warwick, the 24 hour period is very necessary for those who follow Saturday Sabbath. It is all connected to them because of the seventh day. So I believe it is one point they bring out, the other is the Ten Commandments. From there, they can go on to mention Saturday Sabbath. What I do not understand is that they abandon the New Testament passages for believers concerning the law. Like,
"I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain" (Gal. 2:21).
---Mark_V. on 9/18/13


Warwick:

God told us things that were important, and left out things that weren't. The Bible mentions baking, but doesn't give bread recipes. It doesn't mention Jesus's height. There are books it mentions, like Jasher and Laodiceans, that aren't in it. Why not? Because God didn't think them necessary.

Here is what I don't understand. You believe every word in the Bible is literally true. Yet whenever you quote Genesis 1, you feel compelled to add "24 hour" to each "day", because you don't seem to trust God's judgment as to how specific to be. God didn't elaborate "day" because he didn't think it was necessary. Why do you> know better than he does?
---StrongAxe on 9/17/13


\\Cluny, did you not stop to think before you wrote down that Paul was a Roman Catholic what that really meant\\

I never said that.

Go back and read what I actually said.

Maybe you can get someone to explain the difference between "Catholic" and "citizen" to you.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/13/13


Cluny, did you not stop to think before you wrote down that Paul was a Roman Catholic what that really meant? Here is what you imply, if Paul was a Roman Catholic, he went around murdering all kinds of Christians. After all that murdering, he was converted by Jesus to really be a Christian.
Do Roman Catholics have to be converted to Christianity? Paul was you say, a Roman Catholic.
No Cluny, Paul was just a Roman citizen not a Catholic.
The Bible nowhere tells us that Paul converted to Catholicism. Jesus converted him to be a follower of Christ, not a follower of the Catholic Church.
---Mark_V. on 9/13/13


"St. Paul was a Roman citizen. He says so in Acts." Cluny

And that made him a Roman Catholic? How so? Now, what you have just proclaimed is a classic definition of traditions of man and not God. When are you ever going to learn there's no teachings in the Bible that declares the Roman Catholic or the Orthodox - that they are Christians?

There are multitudes of Roman Catholics around the world who are not of the Roman descend or neither a citizen of Rome, which then by your understanding should not be called a Roman Catholic, since they are not a Roman citizen. See where your justification leads you to?

Nowhere!
---christan on 9/12/13




\\You seriously believe that Paul, Peter and the rest of the apostles were Roman Catholics? Please find us a verse in the Scriptures that says so.\\

St. Paul was a Roman citizen. He says so in Acts.

Look it up for yourself.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/12/13


"And you have not yet prove me wrong! Tell me Mark when and who put the books of the bible together inspired by the HS?" Ruben

You seriously believe that Paul, Peter and the rest of the apostles were Roman Catholics? Please find us a verse in the Scriptures that says so.

While you're looking, here's what the Holy Spirit revealed, "And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch." Acts 11:26 - RCs? Ya right.

The statues in your temples, don't expect us to believe they were Paul or Peter or even Jesus. They are merely statues of the pagan religion inspired by the Greeks.
---christan on 9/12/13


\\The traditions in Scripture are not same as the traditions from your church and the RCC.
---Mark_V. on 9/12/13\\

I will say what I've said before. If you attack Orthodoxy, then attack what you KNOW Orthodoxy to be, instead of what you think Roman Catholicism is.

**- Is having relics in your vicinity of worship tradition of God or man?
- Is building a temple of worship a tradition of God or man?**

What was the Ark of the Covenant? It was a portable reliquary, because the Tables of the Decalogue and the rest of its contents were actually relics.

God commanded the Tent or Tabernacle, a portable place of worship, to be built, so what do YOU think?

And so it goes.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/12/13


Christian said, "Monk Brendan, be mindful that God's providence are also God breathed, ..."

I'll try a different tack. If you go back to the original Greek and Aramaic, there are no chapters or verses. Writing material was scarce back then, and the people who were doing the writing would take a used piece of parchment, scrape off the old writing and use it over again

They didn't put chapter and verse markers in, they ran wordstogetherlikethis, and sometimes used contractions and abbreviations, such as, Rx as opposed to prescription As all of the contractions and abbreviations were in common use, everyone would understand them. This even applied to Bible ms (manuscripts). Get the point?
---Monk_Brendan on 9/12/13


Mark_V.* Ruben claims the Bible came through those from the Catholic church.

And you have not yet prove me wrong! Tell me Mark when and who put the books of the bible together inspired by the HS?


Mark_V.* The work of the putting the Bible together is credited to God inspiring man.

And that is call Tradition with the capital T!

Paul tell us " Stand firm to the Tarditions we passed on to you" (! Thess 2:15)

Which Traditions did Paul pass on?
---Ruben on 9/12/13




"The Bible itself says that. "Keep the traditions you have been taught, whether by our word our our epistle," as St. Paul puts it." Cluny

So, where do you draw the line to what's the tradition that's taught in the Bible by the Holy Spirit and one that's taught by man which have been mixed into a cauldron of lies over the generations of Christianity?

- Is having a crucifix in the presence of worship a tradition taught of by the Holy Bible or man?
- Is having relics in your vicinity of worship tradition of God or man?
- Is building a temple of worship a tradition of God or man?
- Is freewill the tradition of God or man?

If your answer is yes, where does it say so in the Bible?
---christan on 9/12/13


Cluny, for your information the traditions taught in the Bible are not the traditions your church or the Catholic impliment. In fact worshipping idols is a no no. Praying to Mary is a no no. Indulgences is another tradition made by Pope Sextus IV. In order to build the chapel. Another tradition not in the Bible is the tradition saying so many hail Mary's and so many our Fathers to receive penance. I could go on, but space won't allow it. Those are the man's traditions you overlook. The traditions in Scripture are not same as the traditions from your church and the RCC.
---Mark_V. on 9/12/13


StrongAxe, word games!

In Exodus 20:8-11 God says He created in 6 days. Where does He say they weren't ordinary evening and morning days just because the sun was not there on days 1-3?

The days before the sun canard was answered by St Basil the Great in Hexaemeron 4th century "However, the sun and the moon did not yet exist, in order that those who live in ignorance of God may not consider the sun as the origin and the father of light, or as the maker of all that grows out of the earth. That is why there was a fourth day, and then God said: Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven.

See also Ezekiel 8:16 Sun worship.
---Warwick on 9/11/13


\\Your argument is because you believe that traditions over see Scripture.\\

Of course it does. I'm glad you finally understand it. The Bible itself says that. "Keep the traditions you have been taught, whether by our word our our epistle," as St. Paul puts it.

Now, are you going to believe what the Bible actually says about tradition, or are you going to follow traditions and precepts of men?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/11/13


*Common opinion concerning chapter divisions attributes them to Cardinal Hugo of Saint Cher for use in his concordance to the Latin Vulgate (c. 1240, first printed, with modification, at Bologna, 1479).

*Old Testament:The earlier printed Hebrew Bibles marked each fifth verse only with its Hebrew numeral. Arabic numerals were first added for the intervening verses by Joseph Athias, at Amsterdam, 1661, at the suggestion of Jan Leusden.

*The present New Testament verses were introduced by Robert Stephens in his Greco-Latin Testament of 1551

(bible-researcherdotcom/chapterverse)


We are warned of division.Gen3:15
Elohyim gave His purpose - His Word -spoken and written - Aleph to Tav-
Salvation from deception
---char on 9/11/13


StrongAxe, let us understand something here and be logical to the subject at hand now. Are we not talking about the Holy Bible and only about the Holy Bible for now? Why do you guys persist to stray from the subject of the Holy Bible?

As for the internet and everything else you see around you, including the evil acts of man on one another, I will sincerely tell you they are all of God, period. Breathed or providence.

Monk Brendan, be mindful that God's providence are also God breathed, for if He did not speak "let there be light", there would have been no sun to give us light. And isn't the sun a wonderful providence of God? In fact the whole creation from the beginning was God breathed. So, what's your problem?
---christan on 9/11/13


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Cluny, you don't want to get it. Your argument is because you believe that traditions over see Scripture. Ruben claims the Bible came through those from the Catholic church. All of you promote traditions of man and give the credit to man, but what you forget is that God inspires man for different purposes. But it is all the work of God because it is for God. If the Bible was put together by sinful man it was still going to accomplish what God wanted to provide all those who read it. No matter man's intentions, it is the work of God. Sinful man would have wrong intentions, but God change them for good. The work of the putting the Bible together is credited to God inspiring man.
---Mark_V. on 9/11/13


Inspired means "God breathed" while providence means that God provided, but they are not inspired.
---Monk_Brendan on 9/10/13


christan:

You and I would both agree that the Internet and blogs like this one make it easy to refer to and discuss scriptures. Wouldn't that ALSO mean that internet and blogs are from God? Yet I doubt you and I think so. Does that then make us hypocrites for using them?



Warwick:

It is childish of you to say there was no evening on days 1-3

I NEVER said that. The Bible says there were. I said there was no SUNSET then because there was no SUN.

evening to evening-sunset to sunset is one day which whether a text states it or not is a 24 hour day.

That is not relevant to the fact that you ACTUALLY said the Bible ACTUALLY said they are 24 hours long - which it never ACTUALLY does.
---StrongAxe on 9/10/13


||Tell us honestly, how do you read the Bible without chapters and verse numbers? Given that your version of the holy bible has ZERO chapters and verse numbers. How?||

Christians did for over 1000 years.

Jews did for even longer. The Torah scrolls in synagogues today STILL do not have them.

Please offer PROOF of your belief that the chapter and verse numbers and divisions are divinely inspired.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/10/13


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"If you believe this, then you will love to hear about Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, Tooth Faith, and Great Pumpkin." Cluny

Honestly, you're seriously exposing yourself to be a real fool and ultimately, a blasphemer. And that's because you call Scripture that's according to Paul in 2 Timothy 3:16,17 - that's all God-inspired - something of a fairy tale.

Tell us honestly, how do you read the Bible without chapters and verse numbers? Given that your version of the holy bible has ZERO chapters and verse numbers. How?

As for your explanation of divine inspired and providence you obviously do not understand the word DIVINE. That means, EVERYTHING IS OF GOD, period.
---christan on 9/10/13


christan, something occurred to me today.

There is a big difference between "divine inspiration" and "divine providence."

The TEXT of the Bible (in the original languages) is divinely inspired. The chapter and verse divisions and their numbering, as well as translations, are of divine providence.

The second does not follow (non sequituur) from the first.

Can you tell the difference?

Glory to Jesus Christ.
---Cluny on 9/10/13


\\I say otherwise, that "ALL SCRIPTURES" includes the chapters and verse numbers which are God-inspired. See the difference?\\

If you believe this, then you will love to hear about Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, Tooth Faith, and Great Pumpkin.

The truth, which you are rejecting, is that the chapter and verse numbers were added over 1000 years AFTER the Scriptures were actually written.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/10/13


Cluny, do you even know what hypocrisy means? Here, let me use you as an example:

You vehemently reject that "ALL SCRIPTURES" does not come with chapters and verse numbers because to you, they are not God inspired. I say otherwise, that "ALL SCRIPTURES" includes the chapters and verse numbers which are God-inspired. See the difference?

You then outrightly declared that chapters and verse numbers are "non-sequituur" and my point to you is why then do you even quote Scriptures accompanied with chapter and verse numbers if you say they are "non-sequituur" and you don't believe that they too are God-inspired to go with Scriptures?

Isn't that hypocrisy?
---christan on 9/10/13


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"\\Anyone who reads the Word will agree that the chapters and verse numbers makes easy reference to the Scriptures, which one must agree wholeheartedly that it's also from God, right? \\"

Non sequitur: does not follow, not a consequence, can't be concluded.
Animal, eso quire decir que lo ultimo no sigue a lo primero!

Verse/chapter makes easy dialog and reference but that one must agree such divisions are from God CANNOT be infered from the fact that "chapter and verse numbers makes easy reference".
---Nana on 9/10/13


\\If you don't believe the chapters and verse numbers are God inspired together with the Scriptures, why do you even bother quoting from the Bible using chapters and verse numbers mentioned?

Isn't that hypocrisy?\\

You're really a piece of work, christan. (Self-made, in this case.)

You complain when I give chapter and verse numbers, then complain when other people don't.

Yet you call ME a hypocrite.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/9/13


"This is what's called a non-sequituur, meaning that A does not follow from B." Cluny

Are you then saying that for example in John chapter 6, verses:

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me."

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

does not follow one another? Seriously?

Do tell, how do you decide which follows one after another?
---christan on 9/9/13


\\Cluny, save yourself the big words, say what you want to say and that is, according to your understanding the Bible has "disconnection between the premise and the conclusion" where chapters and verse numbers are concerned.\\

You are the one with disconnection.

Or are you confusing yourself with the Bible?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/9/13


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Cluny, save yourself the big words, say what you want to say and that is, according to your understanding the Bible has "disconnection between the premise and the conclusion" where chapters and verse numbers are concerned.

I'm convinced that there's NO DISCONNECTION with regards to anything that's written in the Holy Bible. Yes, that's my opinion just like what you say is your opinion.

The Holy Bible is one complete declaration by the Holy God of who He is and who the creatures before Him are. If you don't believe the chapters and verse numbers are God inspired together with the Scriptures, why do you even bother quoting from the Bible using chapters and verse numbers mentioned?

Isn't that hypocrisy?
---christan on 9/9/13


I HAVE quoted from the Bible elsewhere, as I pointed out to you, most recently when I showed how Jesus had revoked the lex talionis for Christians and also gave the qualifications for executioners.

\\Anyone who reads the Word will agree that the chapters and verse numbers makes easy reference to the Scriptures, which one must agree wholeheartedly that it's also from God, right? \\

Wrong.

This is what's called a non-sequituur, meaning that A does not follow from B.

In this case, a non-sequituur is saying that chapter and verse divisions--of purely HUMAN invention--though useful, are of divine origin, as you are claiming.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/8/13


Cluny, you questioned "WHY do you think that the chapter and verse numbers are from God? And if they are, then then DO have doctrinal significance, or did you realize that?" 9/6/13",

You confessed yourself that chapters and verse numbers are not of God and I say MAYBE that's why you don't quote from the Holy Bible since you don't believe that chapters and verse numbers are all of God's that's found in the Holy Bible.

Anyone who reads the Word will agree that the chapters and verse numbers makes easy reference to the Scriptures, which one must agree wholeheartedly that it's also from God, right? And how do they even have doctrinal significance, I have no idea.

Tell me, how have I slandered you?
---christan on 9/8/13


\\Cluny, of course you would oppose the inspired word of God, your denomination and the RCC denomination believe in traditions more the the Word of God.\\

Aside from the fact that I have NEVER opposed the inspired Word of God, there's something else you have wrong.

Orthodox traditions determined what books would be in the Bible to start with, NOT the other way around.

Why do you think such writings as the Book of Jubilees and the Gospel of Thomas were rejected from the Canon?

Chew on that one for a while.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/8/13


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of course you would oppose the inspired word of God, your denomination and the RCC denomination believe in traditions more the the Word of God. With traditions they don't have to compare it to the Bible. Gives them the ability to keep adding more and more traditions this way they answer to no one.
---Mark_V. on 9/8/13

Mark,

If Traditions play no part at all then please tell me:

1) Where in the bible does it tell us which books belong in the bible?

2) Where does Jesus tell the apostles to write everything down, and if he did why did not all of the apostles listen to him?

3) Where does the apostles tell us our faith will be based on books?
---Ruben on 9/8/13


\\Are the covers and notations scriptures?
---christan on 9/7/13\\

Are the chapter and verse numbers scriptures?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/8/13


Cluny, of course you would oppose the inspired word of God, your denomination and the RCC denomination believe in traditions more the the Word of God. With traditions they don't have to compare it to the Bible. Gives them the ability to keep adding more and more traditions this way they answer to no one.
---Mark_V. on 9/8/13


\\Or do you not quote because you don't believe it's God-inspired 100% because you have a problem with chapters and verses numbers?\\

Please cut and paste my exact words where I've denied that the Bible's TEXT (not chapter and verse division, not extraneous notes, or musical notation) are of divine inspirtation.

If you cannot do that, then retract your slander.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/7/13


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cluny, a certain person jabs at me about my faith. he thinks his denomination is true and I think mine is true however I never jab at him. to undermine his faith, he ask me if the whole bible was holy. I just looked at him and said well, the paper will burn but the Words are holy and will never burn. that is the reason God wants us to hide it in our heart.
---shira4368 on 9/7/13


"Actually, I quote from the Bible when it's appropriate. Do you believe the covers of the Bible are inspired, too?" Cluny

"When it's appropriate"? When you "talk" most of the time in CN with regards to doctrines and the Holy Bible, it's not appropriate to quote from the Holy Bible to support your theories? Or do you not quote because you don't believe it's God-inspired 100% because you have a problem with chapters and verses numbers?

Your maturity to discernment of "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" is questionable. Are the covers and notations scriptures?
---christan on 9/7/13


christan, early NT mss as well as Torah scrolls in synagogues to this day have primitive notation for chanting the scriptures in public worship.

Is this notation inspired, too?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/7/13


\\As for me, The Holy Bible is God inspired 100% including chapters and verses numbers, period. Maybe that's why you never quote from your bible, since they don't consist of chapters and numbers.\\

Actually, I quote from the Bible when it's appropriate.

Do you believe the covers of the Bible are inspired, too?

Did you know that Malachi 3 and 4 are divided differently in different translations, christan? Malachi 4:1 in the KJV is 3:19 in the Vulgate and LXX. Which is the God-inspired division?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/7/13


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christan:

Yes, the Word of God is from God. But remember what that was - words in Hebrew and Greek written thousands of years ago. What happened to them subsequently is the work of men - vowel points, cantillation marks, translations into other languages, chapter and verse numbers, red letters, etc.

While these are useful tools for understanding scripture, they are still the work of men who reverently sought to preserve the Word of God for later generations who don't understand Hebrew and Greek as when the books were written.

People who treat them as more are in danger of bibliolatry - worshiping Bibles and their forms as more important than the actual raw Word of God contained inside.
---StrongAxe on 9/6/13


StrongAxe, I am well aware that you attempt to play word games. However we have been given intellect, experience X the Holy Spirit to understand what Scripture says. Evening is defined as the closing of the day, which equates to sunset. As anyone knows evening to evening-sunset to sunset is one day which whether a text states it or not is a 24 hour day.

It is childish of you to say there was no evening on days 1-3, as God says there was-e.g. "And there was evening, and the was morning-the first day. And there was evening and there was morning...."
---Warwick on 9/7/13


Christan, I totally agree with you. What is missing is faith. Faith that God is working through man to put His word together in one piece. Any words changed in Scripture were to help the person understand the passage better depending on language. What is amazing is that people still question the Word of God. And this are supposely believers. They speak in the flesh, thinking in the flesh with complete disregard to the Holy Spirit working through peoples lives to bring together Scripture for everyone.
---Mark_V. on 9/7/13


Your own slant added scripture.
Written in heart of House of Israel....no where else are these found written in the heart.
---Trav on 9/5/13

Romans 2:14 For when the (Nations/Ethnos/divorced Israelite) Gentiles, .... Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts,

And these (Nation/Ethnos) gentiles cannot be Nth kingdom, since when the law was given there was ONE israel not a divided kingdom, both received the law AT THE SAME TIME
---francis on 9/5/13

Emplaced at Death. Read Heb 8:10 again.
Do you think divorced Israel did not know she was divorced? Lost to GOD? Find the woman at the well whose father was Jacob. She was lost Israel expecting a messiah. Jesus recognized and she recognized.
---Trav on 9/7/13


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Cluny & StrongAxe, chapters and verses numbers are merely a point of reference to where we can find Scriptures that has been compiled from Genesis to Revelations in a systematic and easy manner.

Your trivial ideology that it's man-made and to some others, a product of satan is almost laughable (however salvation is no laughing matter). And that it did not come from God is an issue you have to deal with.

As for me, The Holy Bible is God inspired 100% including chapters and verses numbers, period. Maybe that's why you never quote from your bible, since they don't consist of chapters and numbers.
---christan on 9/7/13


What's truly amazing from the standpoint of being a Christian is that we're explicitly told by Scripture, "For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

The very same apostle then declares, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." Isn't this an encouragement to live by FAITH?

Obviously for some, it isn't even though we're told the Word is from God and the Word is God. So, what's missing is FAITH.
---christan on 9/6/13


//Actually, in the Russian Synodal edition of the Bible, the Letters of St. John begin the NT.//
More proof of man making divisions.
---michael_e on 9/6/13


christan:

Please show what doctrine I make out of such numbers and where I have done so.

C+V numbers let others find the same scripture one quotes, but are not divinely inspired.

How do you know C+V are from God? Do you known any biblical authorities that believe this? Or just your opinion?

I show Genesis 1 does not contain "24" and "hour". I am not making doctrine. Rather, proving Warwick's doctrine that it DOES has no biblical basis.


Steveng:

Letters aren't long enough to need divisions. But all legal documents are quoted by page and line numbers. These don't divide the text, just act as points of reference.
---StrongAxe on 9/6/13


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christan, YOU are the one who believes that the chapter and verse divisions are of divine origin (even though they differ in different versions of the Bible). If they ARE of divine authority, then it follows that they have doctrinal significance. It's up to YOU to prove your contention.

And whatever did Christians (and for that matter, Jews) do for 1500 years BEFORE God got around to having the Bible divided into chapters and verses?

\\The casual reader thinks the NT starts with Matthew simply because the page says so.\\

Actually, in the Russian Synodal edition of the Bible, the Letters of St. John begin the NT.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/6/13


"The chapter divisions and verse numbers have no significance in the Jewish tradition."
"The adoption of the Christian chapter divisions by Jews began in the late Middle Ages in Spain, partially in the context of forced clerical debates which took place against a background of harsh persecution and of the Spanish Inquisition (the debates required a common system for citing biblical texts)."

"The first English New Testament to use the verse divisions was a 1557 translation by William Whittingham (c. 1524-1579). The first Bible in English to use both chapters and verses was the Geneva Bible published shortly afterwards in 1560."

Wikipedia
---Nana on 9/6/13


Chapters and verses were put in to make the Bible easier to read and to compare meanings. To me they are of human authority but there is nothing wrong with using tools to make the Bible easier to understand.

I read different translations often to get a better insight into the meaning of a passage.
---Samuelbb7 on 9/6/13


It's apparent from the division of the Old and New Testaments that man has had some authority in divisions.
The casual reader thinks the NT starts with Matthew simply because the page says so.
---michael_e on 9/6/13


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"WHY do you think that the chapter and verse numbers are from God? And if they are, then then DO have doctrinal significance, or did you realize that?" Cluny

Here, Genesis 1 verse 1 to 31 - now demonstrate to us that these words and numbers have doctrinal significance by itself without the content. Go ahead, both you and StrongAxe make a doctrine out of the words and numbers from Genesis 1 verse 1 to 31.

Better still, for easy demonstration
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10

Tell us what the doctrine of these numbers are. Prove your point.
---christan on 9/6/13


\\Simply put, they're are just trying to split hair with regards to the Holy Bible, which I'm 100% convicted that it's all from God - including the chapters and verses numbers.

How are chapters and verses numbers even be perceived as doctrines?
---christan on 9/5/13\\

Couldn't have put it better myself, christan.

WHY do you think that the chapter and verse numbers are from God? And if they are, then then DO have doctrinal significance, or did you realize that?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/6/13


Steven, I heard you before mention that the Bible was to be read without chapter and verses. You would not know where to find most of the passages if you did not have them. I believe the people who introduced the chapters and verses were inspired by the Holy Spirit not only to write down the word of God but to have it written with chapters and verse numbers. The only reason we have the word of God today is because of God, not because of men even though they did the work. They are not the work of satan. Would satan help the believer how to find their way in the Bible? What you say is nonsense, words that come from someone who wants to question the Word of God. Salvation comes through the word of God so go ahead and question God's work.
---Mark_V. on 9/6/13


steveng, there's nothing to misinterpret from your statement. Since we have verse numbers and chapter numbers existing in the Bible for our reference, you are saying the Bible is a by-product of Satan.

Unless you can show us the very first original Bible was without any of these numbers and all, I submit to your claim. If not, you're simply deviating from what the Holy Bible declares, that we're all sinners and are in need of God's mercy, period. That's what Christ declared in Luke 13:1-5.

Now if your bible has no numbers, how are you going to tell us where these words of Christ can be found? Do tell!
---christan on 9/6/13


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Why are we even arguing with this fool Christan? This whole argument is an obvious evasion tactic to distract from his earlier claim that the Pentateuch isn't in the Bible, and that Pentecost and Passover aren't related, and that Pentecost isn't 50 days after Passover.
---Jed on 9/6/13


"Some seem to be bothered by these verse and chapter numbers, but as I see it the Bible would be less accessible without them. They are just a tool. How could we direct someone to a certain verse without them?"

Warwick, one couldn't have said it any better.

Some cannot perceive in their hypocrisy of calling themselves a Christian, they're caught up with the issue of chapters and verses numbers that doctrines in the Bible doesn't take centre stage. Simply put, they're are just trying to split hair with regards to the Holy Bible, which I'm 100% convicted that it's all from God - including the chapters and verses numbers.

How are chapters and verses numbers even be perceived as doctrines?
---christan on 9/5/13


Since punctuation was not invented 'till the 14th century, translators could biasly "fix' things to suit their personal beliefs Like placing the comma before "today" instead of after, supporting the pagan belief that the soul survives the body at death! Lk.23.43
---1st_cliff on 9/5/13


\\You seem to be saying he thinks the verse and chapter numbers are also inspired. \\

This is the issue I am trying to clarify.

On another blog, he said that if people don't give chapter and verse numbers, they don't know the Bible. I (and others) pointed out that Jesus never did so, and despite christan's assertion to the contrary, neither Jesus nor the Apostles always gave the NAME of the book they quoted.

So, I will repeat my question.

christan, do you think that the chapter and verse divisions in Bibles are divinely inspired and of the same spiritual authority as the TEXT of the Bible itself? Please simply answer yes or no.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/5/13


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christan: "And you're saying that the Holy Bible is a by-product of satan?"

Boy, did you misinterpret my post. Re-read my post again. The topic of the sentence is: "Verse numbers and chapter numbers are a product of Satan.." In no way did I say the Word of God itself was a by product of Satan. Do you usually misinterpret the bible in the same way you misinterpret my post?
---Steveng on 9/5/13


Warwick, no one is putting words in Christan's mouth. He actually said that. He actually said if someone quotes scripture without giving chapter and verse reference, that they are lying. He also claimed that Jesus always gave the chapter and verse reference of the scriptures He quoted (even though chapter and verses didn't exist then). I suggest you read the "500 people saw Jesus" blog.
---Jed on 9/5/13


Most chapter divisions were made in the 1200's by an Archbishop of Canterbury. Verse divisions were made by Stephanus some 300-400 years later. Rather late, isn't it?
---Cluny on 9/5/13
What were their inspiration?
What was the intent?
Was there anything at that time written in such chapters and verses which could serve as a template?
---francis on 9/5/13


Cluny, it appears to me that you (and some others) are endeavouring to put words in Christan's mouth. As I see it he is saying the Bible is God's inspired book, and all Christians should agree. You seem to be saying he thinks the verse and chapter numbers are also inspired. Where did he write that?

Some seem to be bothered by these verse and chapter numbers, but as I see it the Bible would be less accessible without them. They are just a tool. How could we direct someone to a certain verse without them?
---Warwick on 9/5/13


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\\So, in short, you're saying the Word of God, aka the Holy Bible isn't God inspired after all?\\

The question being discussed here is if you, christan, think the chapter and verse divisions are divinely inspired.

The translators of the KJV asked, "Has the Kingdom of God now become words and syllables?" They might well ask you, "Has the Kingdom of God now become numbers?"

There are no punctuation marks in the oldest MSS. Do you think that the addition of them are divinely inspired, christan?

Please answer these questions, and don't side-step the issue by quoting verses that don't apply.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/5/13


"There are other examples which show a slightly erratic setup" JamesL

So, in short, you're saying the Word of God, aka the Holy Bible isn't God inspired after all? That the contents, prophesies and teachings are less important than that of the chapters and verses with numbers?

So why even read and quote from the Holy Bible and still call yourself a Christian? If the Holy Bible is not God inspired according to you because it has chapters and numbers, what is? Is there a Bible out there that doesn't have chapters and verse numbers?

Goodness gracious!
---christan on 9/5/13


Many NT mss--I won't stick out my neck and say "most"--in ancient languages are actually lectionaries, that is, compilations of readings for liturgical use at different services. Frequently they were arranged into codices for the minister reading it: the Prophetologion (OT readings) for the Lector, Epistolary (Apostolos) for the Sub-deacon, and Evangelion for the Deacon.

Many Biblical MSS, especially in Greek, are written with many contractions and abbreviations, NO punctuation marks, and not even breaks between words.

Curiously enough, some old mss in both Hebrew and Greek contain primitive musical notation to help their public chanting.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/5/13


The chapter divisions were devised in about the 12th century by an archbishop.

about a hundred or so years later, the Old Testament was divided into verses, and about 5oo years after that, the New Testament was divided into verses

While they are pretty helpful for reference, they are definitely not inspired.

There are quite a few run-on sentences in the New Testament which span over 2-4 verses.

Acts 8:1-3 actually belong with chapter 7

There are other examples which show a slightly erratic setup
---James_L on 9/4/13


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"Verse numbers and chapter numbers are a product of Satan making it easier for people, not necessarily christians, to take meanings out of context." steveng

And you're saying that the Holy Bible is a by-product of satan? There's nothing more wicked than blaspheming that the Word is a "product of satan". And you know what blaspheming the Holy Spirit will earn you (Matthew 12:31,32), or do you not know?

How does having numbers and chapter numbers take "meanings out of context" from the Word? They are just numbers to help us make easy reference to find where the Word is in the Holy Bible.

I can't imagine what kind of books you read that does not have chapters and page numbers.
---christan on 9/5/13


\\To doubt what we have in the Holy Bible is to doubt God, period. Such action is known as unbelief in God's Word.\\

Most chapter divisions were made in the 1200's by an Archbishop of Canterbury. Verse divisions were made by Stephanus some 300-400 years later. Rather late, isn't it?

Do you think they were divinely inspired, christan?

But not all versions agree. Malachi 4:1 in the KJV is 3:19 in the Vulgate and LXX.

Now, if chap/vs divisions are from the Holy Spirit, we have a trilemma here:

1. The Holy Spirit contradicted himself.
2. God IS the author of confusion after all.
3. They are simply of human invention, and men tampered with the Bible after all.

Which is it?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/5/13


I looked in the Bible dictionary, couldn't find the word divisions, however, I did find "diversity. The issue of "diversity" became critical during the initial spread of the church to the Gentile world [Acts 10:1-48, 15: 1-21] and was resolved on the side of unity in Christ [Gal. 3:28]. John saw, which is very interesting to me, that the population of heaven will contain persons "from every nation, tribe, people, and language" [Rev. 7:9].... What matters is, does the Lord live inside of you?
---catherine on 9/4/13


To doubt what we have in the Holy Bible is to doubt God, period. Such action is known as unbelief in God's Word.

Written to the Christian only, Paul declares explicitly without any need of interpretation is, "ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." 2 Timothy 3:16,17

Therefore, the Holy Bible has been compiled by the Holy Spirit through the use of God's prophets and apostles.

"Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering, (for He is faithful that promised,)" Hebrews 10:23
---christan on 9/4/13


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Verse numbers and chapter numbers are a product of Satan making it easier for people, not necessarily christians, to take meanings out of context. When taken out of context, we have multiple interpretaions and, in turn, multiple divisions (or denominations) in christiandom. Some vere even begin in th emiddle of a sentence. Just reading many of the posts on these blogs testify what I say, for one person interprets a verse differently than the next person. Not only does it create division, but debates.

To put it in a more personal note, whould you write to a dear friend with verse numbers? How would you divide your letter into verses without changing its meaning.
---Steveng on 9/4/13


As far as the revised version bibles, they Are Corrupted & have been, edited - altered - changed, trying to make God say what He does Not say. Who are the ones have done such, the ( 2nd. Cor. 11 v's 14 - 15, trinity Rev. 17 v's 4 - 6 theologians, scholars, philosophers etc. ) Sure makes the devil happy.
---Lawrence on 9/4/13


I don't know the specfics but around I think 800 the chapters were created and about 1000 AD the individual verse were created at least in their most modern form. They have human authority which is why we can change them if needed or only quote part of a verse for example the Message Bible comes to mind. They are still good by divine influence from God but not sin if we do not follow the verse structure explicitly.
---Scott1 on 9/4/13


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