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Fall From Grace

Are there any verses in the bible which state quite clearly that some true born-again Christians can fall from grace so badly that they will no longer be considered 'saved'?

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 ---Rita_H on 9/6/13
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So, we see many christians have fallen into sin. Ted Haggard for one. No secret here. Are you saying God's will was for a Professing Christian is to get involved with drugs and perverted sex?
kathr4453 on 9/11/13

Rom_14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, (every knee shall bow to me,) and every tongue shall confess to God.

I sorry, but I find it so funny!
You (pick yourselves up) and then you wonder why you fall.
You look at each other in bewilderment, as to why you fall.
You yourself, right now are pointing at Ted Haggard.
Maybe next time you think you have fallen, you should just stay there on the floor.
Instead of trying to (pick yourselves up)!
Peace
---TheSeg on 9/12/13


steveng, where does it say in the Scriptures, "The christians in the parable of the sower began joyously in the Word"? Why do you add on to the Word? Isn't that an act of deception? That's because the first three grounds had "false faith" and Christians does not have false faith?

How can "faith" which is "a gift from God" be found to be false? It then becomes obvious that the first three grounds never even received God's gift of "faith". For if they did receive "God's gift", they would have been like the fourth ground, fruitful "some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold."
---christan on 9/12/13


Steveng, wrong. Those in the parable were like the actual thing in John 6. They too were called disciples and followed Jesus, ate his food, listened to His sermons. They were so excited, they wanted to make Jesus KING right then and there. When they caught up with Jesu again, Jesus confronted them. When Jesus told them point blank what it really meant to FOLLOW HIM, THEY said oh man, that's TOO HARD, and they left. Jesus asked his 12, are YOU TOO going to leave? He compared those who left to JUDAS.

To eat His flesh and drink His Blood, is living the Crucified life. That is what living UNDER GRACE is....no longer I but Christ.

If you truly have OBEYED Romans 6-8, you cannot fall from Grace.
---kathr4453 on 9/12/13


Why so many rules about Grace either you believe or not. If you believe it you will sow it if you don't, don't worry you will have no harvest of it when you need it..
---Bryan on 9/11/13

Many here quoteJohn 6, but have quoted the WRONG VERSES in John 6. WHY? Because when it comes right down to it, they just don't get it. What did Jesus tell those THEY MUST DO, before they walked away. THAT has been ignored by the Calvinists over and over.

People get in legal trouble all the time by not READING all, including the fine print in contracts. Yet this is not in fine print.

THOSE WHO EAT MY FLESH AND DRINK MY BLOOD I WILL RAISE UP IN THE LAST DAY..

If they understood THIS they would understand Galatians.
---kathr4453 on 9/12/13


The Seg, you are correct. Those that fall away were never saved and we should understand that because they manifest that to us who believe.
"They went out from us, but they were not of us, for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. "that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us" (1 John 2:19). As for losting salvation, we are told,
"..so that we are not lacking in any spiritual gift, as you wait for the revealing of "our Lord Jesus Christ, who will sustain you to the end," guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ" (1 Cor. 1:7-9).
---Mark_V. on 9/12/13




TheSeg on 9/9/13" D"eception, like someone saying they have stopped loving God!
Then they never knew him to begin with!"

Mark_Eaton: "Absolutely correct."

Not correct. The christians in the parable of the sower began joyously in the Word but fell on the stones and fell in the thorns, the cares of this world and persecution respectively. Christians are human. They fear death. They would compromise their faith if the had a choice between living as a human or dying as a christian. That's why the pre-trib rapture was invented making christians think they will escape end time persecution while all christians throughout history died - even today hundreds of thousnads of christians are dying.
---Steveng on 9/11/13


TheSeg, you are addressing the wrong subject matter here. Are you so one dimensional, you can't see or grow past your 15 memorized verses?

So, we see many christians have fallen into sin. Ted Haggard for one. No secret here. Are you saying God's will was for a Professing Christian is to get involved with drugs and perverted sex?

To say yes is to Blaspheme God beyond words, and call God's word a lie. James 1... A man is drawn away by his own lusts and desires. Ted certainly DID fall from life UNDER GRACE, and chose to live in his fleshly sinful old sin nature after salvation. HIS CHOICE! NOT GOD'S WILL. Deal with it, get over it. IT HAPPENS, unless you are teaching sinless perfection.
---kathr4453 on 9/11/13


Why so many rules about Grace either you believe or not. If you believe it you will sow it if you don't, don't worry you will have no harvest of it when you need it..
---Bryan on 9/11/13


And just so I'm clear on what is being said in Joh_6:44, but not just in john.

This "No man can come to me," (should be clear to you, you cannot just walk in or pick your way to God!)
"(except the Father which hath sent me draw him:)" (Clearly you must be drawn by the Father, pick!)
"and I will raise him up at the last day." (This is the person which will be raised him! The one's God picks)

A lot of you still keep saying you can pick God, this is just not so!
No man will ever just pick God!

The very fact that you're saying (I can or cannot choose God), should say it all to you.
But it doesn't!
---TheSeg on 9/11/13


Let's be clear, no one is GOOD GROUND in and of themselves. and no one can bear fruit in and of themselves. The GOOD GROUND is Christ in you...not you in you.

Now we see in Romans 7 Paul tells the Jews under law they had to die to the law in order to be married to another in order to bear fruit. Dying to the law also happens when one is baptized into Christ's Death, not only dying to the law but dying to the old man.

And the verses are talking about our growth as a result of the only salvation available to us..TO BE CRUCIFIED WITH CHRIST and raised up a New Creature. Only the NEW CREATURE can bear fruit. The Good ground then is the NEW CREATURE.
---kathr4453 on 9/11/13




So, it's not your free will! But the will of the Father!
And just what is the Father will?

Joh 6:39 (And this is the Father's will) which hath sent me, (that of all which he hath given me) I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Joh_6:44 No man can come to me, (except the Father which hath sent me draw him:) and I will raise him up at the last day.

Still don't see?
Peace

---TheSeg on 9/11/13

sorry Seg, but "WE" can't raise anyone from the dead. Can YOU? And you think this is God's WILL for your life?
---kathr4453 on 9/11/13


"NOT MY WILL, BUT THINE BE DONE."

Thank you kathr4453, well stated on Matthew 7 and Romans 12:1-2.
---Nana on 9/11/13


Is it convenient for you to append 'inmature' to those who depart?
---Nana on 9/10/13

I am just a parrot repeating what Jesus said. Notice below, the words "no root", "maturity", and "patience".

Luke 8:13-15 "But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy, and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience"
---Mark_Eaton on 9/11/13


Mark V., If a child of GOD chooses to turn away from GOD, it's not that GOD "cannot" do anything about it. It's just that GOD honours a person's decision.

If a child of GOD starts to err from the Faith, GOD will do all HE can to influence and persuade that person to return to HIM and not go further astray, but, if the person stubbornly continues in his back-slidden path, GOD will, sooner or later, let the person have what he wants.

Even then, though, GOD is still waiting for the person to come to the end of his rope, so-to-speak, in hopes that he or she will cry out to GOD, in desperation or despair, for HIS Help and return to Salvation.

GOD has Spiritual Laws HE's set in motion. One is that WE REAP WHAT WE SOW.
---Gordon on 9/11/13


TheSeg, you omitted 21? Verses 22-23 you took out of context because you failed to post 21.
kathr4453

Yes you would say something like that.
As you say "Let us all say with Jesus, NOT MY WILL, BUT THINE BE DONE."

So, it's not your free will! But the will of the Father!
And just what is the Father will?

Joh 6:39 (And this is the Father's will) which hath sent me, (that of all which he hath given me) I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Joh_6:44 No man can come to me, (except the Father which hath sent me draw him:) and I will raise him up at the last day.

Still don't see?
Peace
---TheSeg on 9/11/13


I thought this blog question was about falling from Grace, not election of those who have no will of their own, not only to believe but also obey. Jesus said "Not my will but Thine be done". Obviously Jesus IN HIS HUMANITY had a free will, and has been an EXAMPLE TO US what it means to deny YOURSELF, that is your will, and Follow Him.

Let us all say with Jesus, NOT MY WILL, BUT THINE BE DONE.
---kathr4453 on 9/11/13


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TheSeg, you omitted 21? Verses 22-23 you took out of context because you failed to post 21. Was that because it requires something WE are suppose to do?? HIS WILL? How can YOU be sure YOU are doing HIS WILL? Have you obeyed Romans 12:1-2? Oh , that takes OBEDIENCE which is not a requirement for the elect.

Matt 7: 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
---kathr4453 on 9/11/13


How does a person endure? By "believing what Jesus Christ did once for all when He put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself."?
Nana

Then I guess these that prophesied in his name, have cast out devils!
Didnt believe??

I dont know, there Nana! Wouldnt these have walked up (as you say) believing??
Yet, he said depart from me, ye that work iniquity!
So your believing was still not enough.

Mat_7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat_7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Peace
---TheSeg on 9/11/13


Those who believe a child of God can be lost is because they believe the child of God has power over God with his own free will. To begin with, he believes he has "free will to choose Christ or not if he wants to" So that tells them, they can choose not to continue with Christ out of their own free will and God cannot do anything. It was their decision to come to Christ, it is their decision to leave Christ. They believe they become a child of God and then turn around and become a child of wrath again. They also believe the spiritual birth did not last and they are again dead in trespasses and sin. Their spiritual baptism was fake. All because they believe in the persons free will. Free will sure gets many here in big trouble.
---Mark_V. on 9/11/13


In 1 Corinthians 6:18 Paul adds, "Flee fornication". What would happen if you do not flee it, in light of 1 Corinthians 6:8_10?
Perhaps you could answer with some inanity like, "Oh that talk is about the kingdom, you still get cookies and Matzah balls!"
---Nana on 9/11/13


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// "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."//
To the end of what?
---michael_e on 9/10/13


"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

What does that mean michael_e? How does a person endure? By "believing what Jesus Christ did once for all when He put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself."?
Ok then, explain I Corinthians 6:8_10 "Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren. Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
---Nana on 9/10/13


Ruben, do you even know why they "REFUSED TO COME"?

Let's see, Christ declared, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." John 6:37,44,65

Therefore based on Christ's declaration, their refusal to go to Him is simply because the Father never gave them to His Son. So then, the Father will never draw them - hence their refusal. Nothing to do with your imaginary freewill.
---christan on 9/10/13


Many people who deny believers eternal security in Christ confuse the believers standing with the believers state. The moment a sinner believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, with the heart he is eternally justified from all things and he stands in the sight of God as though he had never committed a sin, complete in Christ, and God says there is therefore, now no condemnation.
The Holy Spirit beseeches the believer to present His body a living sacrifice, to walk in the Spirit and make no provision for the flesh to abstain from the appearances of evil. But the believer is saved, not by presenting his body a living sacrifice, not by walking, but by believing what Jesus Christ did once for all when He put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
---michael_e on 9/10/13


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Me! Yea you!
Matthew 21:43 "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."
What nation gained, which lost it?

First tell me how many nations, there are? Nana
Sorry, I only see one. Yea, I know, Im stupid!

About them?? Who are them?
The Israelites, seed of Abraham or the children of the promise?
And how do you rebel against, what you do not know?
Oh, I forgot! You say they knew!

You do know, the Holy Ghost was not yet given!
Are we talking about land or Spirit?
(a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.)
Must mean like farming, right?

Yea, thank you so much, there Nena.
Pace
---TheSeg on 9/10/13


"Why are you talking about nations when the blog question is about individuals?"
Mark_Eaton on 9/10/13

Look at yourself dude, asking "Do you believe that after God has made us heirs with Christ, has adopted us as sons and daughters, has put His own Spirit within us,
You asked me to judge God?

"Unbelief is the reason why a person falls away before they mature."

No, that is the reason they fall period. The word says, "1 Timothy 4:1 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils"

Is it convenient for you to append 'inmature' to those who depart?
---Nana on 9/10/13


Falling from Grace

Paul calls readers saved: Galatians (1:2-4)

They were called in the grace of Christ (1:6)

As believers who have been justified through faith, the Galatians are now sons of God(3:26)
and no longer slaves to the law (4:5-7).

They need to stand fast in their liberty and not
become entangled in the bondage of the law (5:1).

If they revert to legalism, Christ will not profit them in sanctification (5:2), VOIDING OUT Grace as their sanctification AKA Falling from Grace. NOT LOSING THEIR SALVATION

Since the Galatians began their Christian lives in the Spirit they should not think they could grow to maturity by their own fleshly efforts at keeping the law.(3:2-3).
---kathr4453 on 9/10/13


Your issue is not with me.
---Nana on 9/10/13

Why are you talking about nations when the blog question is about individuals?

Do you believe that the nation of Israel was the kingdom of God? I certainly do not. I believe the Kingdom of God is given to a nation comprised of every tribe, tongue, and people of the earth.

You forgot to quote this verse, which explains why Rom 11:22 sounds so severe:

Rom 11:19-20 "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in. Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith"

Unbelief is the reason why a person falls away before they mature.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/10/13


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ME,
Matthew 21:43 "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."
What nation gained, which lost it?

About them,
Romans 9:4 "Who are Israelites, to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises" God's children, (Isaiah 1:2) who rebelled,the lost sheep of the house of Israel?

Of you Pauls says, Romans 11:22 "Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity, but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."

Your issue is not with me.
---Nana on 9/10/13


Mark V,

YAHUSHUA was already "Sanctified in His Humanity" when He was filled with the Holy Spirit at His Baptism with John the Baptist, MARK 1:10.
---Gordon on 9/10/13


How could you say that they never 'knew' him, when He calls them of His children whom He had raised?
You must have a hole in your head.
Nana

Yes, I do! It especially there just to hear from you!

Rom_9:6 (Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect.) For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Rom_9:7 (Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children:) but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Rom_9:8 That is, (They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God:) but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Do you understand?? No right!
Peace
---TheSeg on 9/10/13


"Deception, like someone saying they have stopped loving God!
Then they never knew him to begin with!"
TheSeg on 9/9/13

Isn't that how we all start, not knowing him?
Knowing implies learning and that is the process Paul describes in Romans 10:12_14.

Isaiah 1:2 "Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me."

How could you say that they never 'knew' him, when He calls them of His children whom He had raised?
You must have a hole in your head.

Peace
---Nana on 9/10/13


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However, I do see Romans 8 is addressed to those who OBEYED Romans 6. So I don't see any conflict in these verses.
---kathr4553 on 9/9/13

Nor do I. That is my point.

If you have truly been buried with Christ, you have been crucified with Christ, and are dead to the world and the world is dead to you, then you have nothing to return to, nothing to fall back into. You have only one path and that path is Christ.

When we examine the passages you have offered which discuss falling back, we must conclude that these ones are not mature, fruit-bearing members of the BOC.

If as Rom 8:17 says, the Spirit bears witness to our being sons and daughters of God, how can we be "disowned" by God?
---Mark_Eaton on 9/10/13


kathr4453 has made sound statements but I do not find that you have
---Nana on 9/9/13

Let me ask a question.

Do you believe that after God has made us heirs with Christ, has adopted us as sons and daughters, has put His own Spirit within us, do you believe that God takes all that away because we may stumble and fall?

Also, would any earthly father disown, disinherit, and completely abandon a toddler because the child disobeyed him?

We have too high an opinion of ourselves. We are children to God.

Luke 11:13 "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!"
---Mark_Eaton on 9/10/13


christan * Funny Notice that Christ didn't say, "For many are called, but few chose." It's "called" not "invited".

Look what jesus says about those who were invited " The kingdom of Heaven is like a King(GOD) who prepared a wedding banquet for his Son(Jesus). He sent his servants to those WHO HAD BEEN INVITED to the banquet to tell them to come, BUT THEY REFUSE TO COME." (MT 22:2)

christan* As for your erroneous understanding, Christ declared to the apostles, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you..."

And one of them was Judas, we know what he did!
---Ruben on 9/10/13


Deception, like someone saying they have stopped loving God!
Then they never knew him to begin with!
---TheSeg on 9/9/13

Absolutely correct.

Knowing God is experiencing God. If we are to grow mature and bear fruit for God, we cannot do so as a sapling. Only a tall and strong tree bears fruit. One that has seen the winds of storm, the gloomy days of despair, and the scorching heat of trials. The ever changing seasons of life.

After enduring these, we would never turn away from God. He is our only refuge in the storm.

Ps 34:8 "Oh, taste and see that the Lord is good, Blessed is the man who trusts in Him!"
---Mark_Eaton on 9/10/13


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New International Version

Hebrews 10:29
How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

Well, it appears the NIV got it wrong too, right MarkV?
---kathr4453 on 9/10/13


We are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus:Heb. 10:10,

Jesus suffered that he might sanctify the people with his own blood:Heb. 13:12,

No scripture states Jesus own Blood sanctified himself.

Jesus was set apart the moment he was born. He was already HOLY. Jesus sanctified Himself in being OBEDIENT to the Will of God. MarkV you may want to read all scriptures re: sanctify.
---kathr4453 on 9/10/13


There is nothing that can cause God to stop love us. But we can stop loving him.
How if we have excepted Jesus as our savior. And then we stop loving God?
Bryan

Deception, like someone saying they have stopped loving God!
Then they never knew him to begin with!

Next:
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

You think you can accept Christ as "Lord as Savior??"
Christ is "Lord and Savior!"
Whether anyone does or doesnt "accepting this means nothing!"

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me,
(ye that work iniquity!)

Knowing is far greater!
Peace
---TheSeg on 9/9/13


Nice try, but God does not "force" salvation upon His elect. To say that He "forced" is to say that His mercy and grace is nothing but an act of tyranny from a dictator. How is that even so? This is how much these haters of God's will go to say He "forces" His love on the sinner.

When God shows His mercy and grace upon the sinner (who to begin with is completely underserving of His mercy and grace), it's a wonderful demonstration of His great love for His elect. Bottomline, it's an act of eternal LOVE that mankind does not know of until they are the beneficiary of His love.

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8
---christan on 9/10/13


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Mark 4:18 Now these are the ones sown among thorns, they are the ones who hear the word, 19 and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. Producing, but not producing fruit for the Kingdom of Heaven.
---Bryan on 9/10/13


Gordon, the "He" in (Heb. 10:29) is Jesus Christ. He was sanctified at the cross in His humanity not in His divine nature. Sanctified is to be set apart unto God (John 17:18,19)
"As you sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. "And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the Truth"
I believe you need to read the whole Bible. You are missing many parts, so when you speak, you imply something totally different then the Truth.
---Mark_V. on 9/10/13


Mark_Eaton, ask Paul. Did his warning in Galatians contradict his teaching in Romans? Can one fall from Grace if they never had it to begin with? Can one INSULT the Spirit of Grace, Hebrews 10, if Grace was never offered to them be insulted.

According to MarkV and Christan, Grace is only forced on the elect, and the rest were for-ordained to burn in hell. So is the one insulting the Spirit of Grace doing it in and of themselves, or is God forcing the unelect to INSULT the Spirit of Grace?

Can Grace be voided? Paul says it can. Ask Paul or the author of Hebrews....I didn't write it.

However, I do see Romans 8 is addressed to those who OBEYED Romans 6. So I don't see any conflict in these verses.
---kathr4553 on 9/9/13


May I permit ( all I could find leads me believe God over & over makes it clear He does not give up on us! We are the ones who decide, vs.Though We fall
Ps.37:23-26, Ps.145:14
He glad to help ( utterly lift man back up!) Pro.3:5,6, Ps.51 he admonish us,be encouraged, repent - Come back to the Lord. Ja.4:7,8. vs.Humble your
selves before the Lord,and he will lift you up.
Bless you all!
Stay encouraged.. thankyou,Jesus!
Lidia4796
---Lidia4796 on 9/9/13


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"The LORD calls and invites MANY to receive Salvation and live in HIS ways, but, only a few, in comparison, actually accept it and live it out." Gordon

Funny that you should use Matthew 22:14, "For MANY ARE CALLED, but few are chosen." to beat the living daylights out of your freewill theology. Notice that Christ didn't say, "For many are called, but few chose." It's "called" not "invited".

As for your erroneous understanding, Christ declared to the apostles, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you..." and Acts 13:48 confirms election, "and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed"?
---christan on 9/9/13


No one is saved, yet - that's a future event.

Why are you christians so vain to think that you cannot fall out of faith? Christians today are no different than all the other goldy people in the bible - able to fall away because of tribulation or the cares of the world.

If christians believe "once a christian, always a christian" why are there warnings in both the OT and NT about backsliding. Doesn't the bible predict the falling away from the church in the end days? Many christians accepted the Word with joy in the beginning of their walk toward the Kingdom of God, but have strayed.
---Steveng on 9/9/13


MarkV, I think every true believer in Christ knows that passage means that if the Hebrews (those to whom the epistle if written - thus the name) go from believing in Christ BACK to the old system of righteousness by the law , then they have counted the blood of the new covenant in Christ as unholy and have set their heart against the Spirit of grace.

Not only will they be guilty of breaking the old covenant but also of breaking the new ,thereby bringing WORSE condemnation upon themselves.

That is backed up in 2 Peter 2:21,22. They would then be as a pig that had been washed going right back to rolling around in the mud.
---LindaH on 9/9/13


"... from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord"

"He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?"

Therefore, I pose that we have access to God's love by being in Christ?
Romans 5:2
Ephesians 2:18
John 14:23 "Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him."

"Are you saying our will contradicts this verse?"
Mark_Eaton

kathr4453 has made sound statements but I do not find that you have
---Nana on 9/9/13


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Well in 1 john we see that if we say we are saved but do not love others then we are lying. So many people who say they are saved are not since they do not love others.

Jesus also said. Mat 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

So if you do not forgive others you are not forgiven. No matter how many times you say you are saved or said the sinners prayer.

I believe it is better to check and see if we are truly saved by showing we love then worrying about losing our salvation. I have meet people who think they are saved but are full of hate.
---samuelbb7 on 9/9/13


There is nothing that can cause God to stop love us. But we can stop loving him. How if we have excepted Jesus as our savior. And then we stop loving God? There is enough deception about the word of God to make a lot of baby's in Christ learn to hate God and it happens all the time. Telling People God punishes them to make them better is one. Not letting christian know about the Grace of God. Telling them they will go to hell for sinning is another one. Forcing religious rules down their throat is another one.
---Bryan on 9/9/13


If perhaps you read and understood the WHOLE BOOK OF GALATIANS, from first to last verse, and what Paul was addressing in the WHOLE LETTER, you would understand that GRACE Is not FORCED on anyone against their will called unmerited favor.
---kathr4453 on 9/8/13

But perhaps Paul contradicted himself when he wrote Romans:

Rom 8:38-39 "For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord"

Are you saying our will contradicts this verse?
---Mark_Eaton on 9/9/13


bryan, I am happy to see someone who knows we have choices. God made us that way. He won't force His way into anyone's life. we have choices who we marry, where we live, how many children we have, what church we go to and whether we listen to the Holy Spirit or not listen.
---shira4368 on 9/9/13


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Either you are or you are not! The answer is NO! God is able to keep His own. He is most POWERFUL! The question is are you really chosen by God. Hand-picked. And I heard from Him last night---Sometimes those who knows nothing when they are saved, makes the best servants. Thank You, Jesus.
---catherine on 9/9/13


Well, Rita, there is something about how angels already in Heaven were able to fall with Satan (Jude 6). Now do we believe those angels were fully holy? Or, were they somehow not really holy so they would be sure to fall, for God's purpose?

John, even right while "in the Spirit on the Lord's Day" (in Revelation 1:10) was able to fall down and worship an angel > Revelation 19:9-10.

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17) If we are one spirit with Jesus, is our Father going to deliberately let go of us enough so we fall??
---willie_c: on 9/9/13


Christan, MATTHEW 22:14

"For MANY ARE CALLED, but few are chosen."

The LORD calls and invites MANY to receive Salvation and live in HIS ways, but, only a few, in comparison, actually accept it and live it out.
---Gordon on 9/9/13


MarkV, Verse 29 says "wherewith he was sanctified".

That is talking about a person who has been 'sanctified' by the Blood, on which he has now trampled.

That "sanctified" means TO BE MADE HOLY, or "Saved".

That part of the Verse cannot be referring to YAHUSHUA, Mark V, as you've in the past said it does, because YAHUSHUA was not made sanctified by His own Blood. YAHUSHUA WAS ALREADY SANCTIFIED BEFORE TIME EVEN BEGAN. He is God of very GOD!

That Verse of HEBREWS 10:29 is talking about someone who was not previously sanctified, but was then made so by the Blood of YAHUSHUA.
Not YAHUSHUA being sanctified by His own Blood.
---Gordon on 9/9/13


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"For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST." Ephesians 2:8,9

"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God ACCORDING TO ELECTION MIGHT STAND, NOT OF WORKS, BUT OF HIM THAT CALLETH." Romans 9:11

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and AS MANY AS WERE ORDAINED TO ETERNAL LIFE BELIEVED." Acts 13:48

"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you..." John 15:16
---christan on 9/9/13


Gordon, you and Kathr slaughter every passage you give like Heb. 10:26-31). The context is speaking of those who rejected Moses law (v.28) and that pertains to everyone who is under the law. Of how much worse punishment do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot" speaking of the same people, and counted the blood of the Covenant, by which Jesus was sanctified on the Cross, that Person is Jesus, for Jesus said, "For this is My blood of the new covenant which is shed for many for the remission of sins" Those people who had the oracles of God trample the Son of God underfoot, and reject the work of Christ on the Cross. How could they possibly be saved? You are completely wrong again.
---Mark_V. on 9/9/13


What law must you do to get Grace? What law must you do to get Faith? Cause if your not born again your under the law. There is nothing you can do in yourself to receive those gifts. In fact ever thing you get from God through Jesus is a Gift to you. Your reasonable service is to live in the gifts he has given you. Grace, Mercy, Faith, Holiness, Righteousness. The Blood of the lamb made you right with God not you try to be righteous You are saved by Grace through Faith , Gifts from God.
---Bryan on 9/9/13


The word of God "Jesus" does not forces anyone. You can live your Christian life believing any way you want and some do. Gods' word allows that. All these religious rules or BT. God gave you life you think you had something to do with that to? You will reap what you sow. Sow Grace and Mercy The goodness of God those thing bring healing to the body. Or are you still try to get more faith for that to?
---Bryan on 9/9/13


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After reading some of these post the only thing that comes to mind is:

Mat_24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch that, (if it were possible), they shall deceive the very elect.

//No one gets unmerited favor just by believing in unmerited favor. That's nuts.
My FAITH in in the person and finished works of Jesus Christ. I have placed my faith in the one who died for my sin.//
kathr

2Co_10:7 Do ye look on things after the outward appearance?
If any man trust to himself that he is Christ's, let him of himself think this again, that, (as he is Christ's, even so are we Christ's.)

Peace
---TheSeg on 9/9/13


No one gets unmerited favor just by believing in unmerited favor. That's nuts. No one can have faith in hoping their name gets picked out of a hat. And the definition of unmerited favor need no faith at all. It is something you say is forced on you against any free will to receive or reject it. If someone came to my house, and forced a dog on me, saying I cannot refuse it, calling it unmerited favor...what then do I need to have faith in?????

To say one is saved by unmerited favor through faith in unmerited favor is the most schizophrenic statement I've ever heard anyone make.

My FAITH in in the person and finished works of Jesus Christ. I have placed my faith in the one who died for my sin.
---kathr4453 on 9/8/13


Yes!

Take heed, BRETHREN lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in DEparting from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called today, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end - Hebrews 3:12-14
---Jasheradan on 9/8/13


Bryan, unmerited favor is not even in scripture. No such term is even used in scripture.

Paul said in Galatians 2:20-21...Verse 20....listen carefully to Paul's words after verse 20....I DO NOT MAKE VOID THE GRACE OF GOD.

So those who turned BACK to the beggarly elements of keeping the law after salvation, MADE VOID the Grace of God. So we see Grace was IN FACT OFFERED, and they voided it out by going back under the principles of being UNDER LAW.

If perhaps you read and understood the WHOLE BOOK OF GALATIANS, from first to last verse, and what Paul was addressing in the WHOLE LETTER, you would understand that GRACE Is not FORCED on anyone against their will called unmerited favor.
---kathr4453 on 9/8/13


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Markv, I still believe in the assurance of the saints . Was Paul speaking against it? That is who you need to ask. I did not write Galatians Markv, God did, through Paul. The reason you don't understand what Paul is saying, is that Paul's definition of GRACE is not Calvin's definition. Paul never gave it a definition of unmerited favor.

We are not saved by "unmerited favor" through faith.

We are saved by Jesus death and resurrection , saved by HIS LIFE IN US, through faith.

See the difference? Your definition with no free will, does not fit Paul's warning in Galatians.

So GRACE is the CROSS. This is absolutely defined in Galatians 2:20-21. Life UNDER GRACE is now..."I DIE DAILY".
---kathr4453 on 9/8/13


Hebrews 10:35_39 "Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition, but of them that believe to the saving of the soul."

Confidence is a synonym of assurance.

Here is assurance: "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."
---Nana on 9/8/13


Grace: Unmerited Favor, When you have it you can't fail out of it. It was unmerited to you. You get it for just believing in it. Just like with Jesus. You receive him just by believing in him. These are some of the GIFTS we receive from Jesus, But for a Gift to be USED you have to open it. And we need unmerited favor cause we miss a lot. I thank Jesus for that Grace all the time.
---Bryan on 9/8/13


Kathr, you use to teach the assurance of the saints, now, just to argue, you speak against it. What a turn around just to argue. Fallen from grace in the context of Paul message, the word fallen means to lose one's grasp on something. Paul's clear meaning is that any attempt to be justified by the law is to reject salvation by grace alone through faith alone. Those once exposed to the gracious truth of the gospel who then turn their backs on Christ (Heb. 6:4-6) and seek to be justified by the law are separated from Christ and lose all propects of God's gracious salvation. Their desertion of Christ and the gospel only proves that their faith was never genuine (Luke 8:13,14: 1 John 2:19). Those people were never saved to begin with.
---Mark_V. on 9/8/13


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Grace will give you the time to learn the truth and get it working in your life for life. Matthew 13:32
---Bryan on 9/8/13


HEBREWS 10:26-31
"...if we sin wilfully after...the knowledge of the Truth, there remaineth no more Sacrifice...but, a CERTAIN FEARFUL LOOKING FOR of Judgment and Fiery Indignation (Lake of Fire), which shall (also) devour the adversaries (those who already hate GOD)...of how much sorer Punishment...shall he be thought worthy, who hath...counted the Blood of the Covenant, wherewith he was sanctified (made holy), an unholy thing?...the LORD shall judge HIS people!"

"The Blood of the Covenant wherewith he was sanctified" is not referring to YAHUSHUA (JESUS), for He was already Sanctified and Holy BEFORE He shed His Blood, since He's God!

It refers to a person who's received Salvation at some time.
---Gordon on 9/8/13


Grandma, we have several options here:

Galatians 5:4

4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law, ye are fallen from grace.

1:) someone never saved can't fall from Grace in he first place.

2: ) ALL under the law were automatically transferred under grace, and those who continued with the Law fell from Grace. ???

3,). Grace means more than just our initial salvation experience.

4:) Those saved by Grace living now UNDER GRACE are in fact responsible for their remaining UNDER GRACE.
---kathr4453 on 9/8/13


Kathr: What evidence is there that the Galatians to whom Paul referred were saved in the first place?
---Grandma on 9/7/13


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""Are there any verses in the bible which state quite clearly that some true born-again Christians can fall from grace so badly that they will no longer be considered 'saved'?"

Is there even such a teaching in the Bible that says there are Christians who are not born of the Spirit and there are Christians who are born of the Spirit? One would have thought the minute you're born of the Spirit, you're classified a Christian not before.

Believing you're a Christian without being born of the Spirit is no Christian at all. There's no such teachings.
---christan on 9/7/13


I prefer to fall into Grace than fall out of it.
---Bryan on 9/7/13


"Are there any verses in the bible which state quite clearly that some true born-again Christians can fall from grace so badly that they will no longer be considered 'saved'?" No.
---Josef on 9/7/13


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