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God Cause Us To Sin

Does predestination imply that God causes us to sin?

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 ---jerry6593 on 9/11/13
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Brother MarkV in Christ, stand firm and be encouraged that you are in good ground with the apostles and saints with regards to the doctrine you hold so dearly.

We have some who even dare say Jesus talks to them and there are others who seemed to think that only the Pharisees were the only one rejecting Christ as the Messiah. They fail to look around today and the whole world rejects Christ, including themselves. The spirit of the Pharisees is alive and well.

"If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you." It's Christ whom they really hate, not you... hence the abuse and persecution.
---christan on 9/20/13


"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth... As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." Romans 9:11,13

---christan on 9/20/13

If Rebecca only had one child, THAT CHILD would have still been the corporate head of ISRAEL, and that NATION called to be God's SERVANTS on earth and a light to the Gentiles as well. If Rebecca had triplets STILL ONLY ONE could fulfill the promise given to Abraham for an EARTHLY nation that was promised LAND as well. What on earth does that have to do with YOU?

God never made that statement concerning Isaac and Ishmael.
---kathr4453 on 9/20/13


Gen 28:4 that you may possess the land of your sojournings, which God gave to Abraham.

Gen 35:12 the land which I gave to Abraham and Isaac, I will give it to Jacob

Deut 30:5 God will bring you into the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it


God NEVER elected any Gentile to inherit the LAND, or is that promise to the CHURCH.

IN ISAAC will the seed be CALLED. So the SPIRITUAL is not through Jacob but through ISAAC. and Galatians confirms this fact. NOWHERE in Galatians RE, salvation BY GRACE plus NOTHING is Jacob even mentioned. It's all about ISAAC..... and any FOOL who can read knows that.
---kathr4453 on 9/20/13


\\Kathr, Jesus was addressing the Pharisees, but those words are for all mankind who are lost like them and you.\\

You're just as lost as the Pharisess, MarkV.

Jesus told me to tell you that.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/20/13


Kathr, Jesus was addressing the Pharisees, but those words are for all mankind who are lost like them and you. Like the passage says, you do not hear Jesus words, why? because you are not able to listen to His words just like them. ---Mark_V. on 9/20/13

The problem with your STUPID comment here markv is this: Those Jesus was talking to rejected the fact that JESUS was/is the promised Messiah. I however believe His is and so did many at that time. So your STUPID comment here says nothing about one having to believe they were picked out before hand. THAT is where your STUPIDITY and arrogance makes you a fool of fools.
---kathr4453 on 9/20/13




Adetunji,

"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth... As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." Romans 9:11,13

"Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved" Romans 9:27, "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace." Romans 11:5

Well, there goes your theory out the window that "God does not pick some for heaven and some for hell". Try again.
---christan on 9/20/13


Jed, MarkV, kathr, christian

Brothers and sister understand we are looking at the same coin from two different sides. The coolest part is that we are both right because it is the same coin.
Jed, Kathr - we see God as very reactionary in our view of time. We sin by our choice then God brings about a work from it. God does not need our sin but uses it. This is how God shows his love inspite of our failures he wins. (Gen 1 28-31)
MarkV christian - you see God as eternal knowing all things. God knowing we will sin and fail, ordained (set forth in motion) in love the redemtion of the world by sending his son.
---Scott1 on 9/20/13


But the wisdom of God openly dictates, "For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all." In this, these fools are still blinded and in unbelief of the Truth, meaning mercy has not come to them just yet. That's why they kick and scream about the Sovereignty of God.
---christan on 9/19/13

Christan, I see you use the word FOOL here when it's a fool who can't read. God concluded THEM ALL meaning both Israel under the law and Gentiles, ( please go back and read the WHOLE , verses before that one) SO THAT he can have mercy upon ALL. You say the 2nd ALL in the very same sentence is the elect only. WRONG...ALL means ALL.

So who you FOOLING here, only yourself, making YOU the FOOL.
---kathr4453 on 9/19/13


Here's the WHOLE Christan, so you won't be a FOOL.

27 -33. For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
---kathr4453 on 9/19/13


Rom 11:32

For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

The problem we have with predestination is that you say this verse does not mean what it says. GOD will have mercy upon all. predestination teaches that GOD does not have mercy upon all but forces some to be lost and hates the rest. Which is opposite of this verse and many others.

Why cannot a Sovereign GOD give us free will? Are is that impossible for GOD?
---Samuelbb7 on 9/19/13




Christan, Let me break those verses down for you. Paul, talking to GENTILES states AGAIN that because of the unbelief of the JEWS, mercy has come to the Gentiles. NOW through the MERCY God has given YOU ,a gentile, Mercy will come to the UNBELIEVING JEWS. So this ignoramus idea that YOU are a JEW NOW just doesn't fit. When GENTILES turn away from the TRUTH, as you have, and apostasy sets in, then God is going to turn to ISRAEL, EXACTLY as Romans 11 says. Read ALL of Romans 11. It's not that hard. Note the two groups..Jew and Gentile, and how God deals with both, and how HIS SOVEREIGN RIGHT to have Mercy on ALL will happen.

Throw those evil Calvin books away, and just BELIEVE GOD. He's stated this fact NUMEROUS TIMES IN SCRIPTURE.
---kathr453 on 9/19/13


Kathr, Jesus was addressing the Pharisees, but those words are for all mankind who are lost like them and you. Like the passage says, you do not hear Jesus words, why? because you are not able to listen to His words just like them. Then you say,
" If God wanted to state clearly some are chosen and some are rejected based on God's Good Humor, we would have seen that established clearly with Abel and Cain. WE DO NOT"
God stated that many times, here is one,
"Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love" The passage is talking about those who are saved already. Paul speaking to the saints.
---Mark_V. on 9/20/13


Mark V, Christan: God does not pick some for heaven & some for hell. God is just & righteous Jer 9:23-24. Whosoever believes (John 3:16) & repents (Luke 13:3-5) will be drawn to God/Jesus. God has no hidden agenda like human governments when it comes to matter of Salvation.
---Adetunji on 9/20/13


Jed, you say,
" I'm not looking for holes." yes you are. "I'm looking for something, anything logical...if man is sinful by nature then it is God who made him sinful," Fallen man is under the curse that God put on mankind. All descendants of Adam are under the curse, Condemned already. When Adam chose to sin, he took everyone down. I never said man did not choose to sin. I said sinful man cannot choose Christ. Hello? When people sin it is because they are sinful with no hope, "No Hope". But God who is rich in mercy and because of His great love with which He loved us believers, while we were yet sinners, made us alive together with Christ for by grace we are saved through faith.
---Mark_V. on 9/20/13


Matthew 21:32 "For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him."

The saying "There is none who seeks after God" misses the boat with those publicans and harlots for sure.
Psalm 14:2 is from where Paul made his comment but Verse 1 says, "Psalm 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.

v6,"Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.", the publicans and the harlots sought refuge in the man of God John leading to Christ.
---Nana on 9/20/13


Brother MarkV, some accuse us of "promoting sin". How does one even "promote sin" when we are all natural born sinners as declared by the Word? Isn't mankind the very examples of what sin is?

The have failed to understand that Christ's death at Calvary was the very reason He came to this world because "he shall save his people from their sins."

But the wisdom of God openly dictates, "For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all." In this, these fools are still blinded and in unbelief of the Truth, meaning mercy has not come to them just yet. That's why they kick and scream about the Sovereignty of God.
---christan on 9/19/13


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MarkV, Jesus was specifically addressing the Pharisees in that verse. it does NOT apply to all mankind. You take scripture specifically addressing Israel to form your nonsense around. If God wanted to state clearly some are chosen and some are rejected based on God's Good Humor, we would have seen that established clearly with Abel and Cain. WE DO NOT. You wait until Jacob and Esau, having nothing to do with salvation and establish a salvation based on NATIONS for SERVICE and not individual salvation.
---kathr4453 on 9/19/13


Jed 2: Jesus was asked "who then can be saved" Jesus said:
"With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible" (Matt. 19:26). And when Jesus answer those who said Abraham was their father,
Jesus said,
"If God were you Father, you would love Me" then said
"why do you not understand My speach?, because "you are not able" to listen to My word. They didn't have the ability to listen to Christ, and you know why? Jesus said You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do." All unbelievers cannot hear Christ only His sheep can. The unbelievers are doing the desires of their father, without even knowing it.
---Mark_V. on 9/19/13


MarkV you are changing the subject. you said God was in everything and everything is IN GOD. SCRIPTURE clearly says "IN GOD" there is no darkness. Therefore SIN and evil do not dwell IN GOD. Period...end of conversation. If you're going to make statements, please re-read your statements first before posting your goobliegook nonsense!

---kathr4453 on 9/19/13


MarkV, I'm not looking for holes. I'm looking for something, ANYTHING logical in what your saying. Man did not just always exist. God created man. So if man is sinful by nature then it is God who made him sinful, or man at some point chose sin, which blows your whole "no free will" argument out of the water. Someone had to choose sinful nature for mankind. It didnt just magically appear in us. God made us. Either God chose it for man or we chose it for ourselves. If some are predestined to be saved, then that means some are predestined not to be saved, which means God chose for them to remain in sin.
---Jed on 9/19/13


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Jed, your looking for holes, it's fine with me. You asked,
"So MarkV, your saying that people choose to sin now?" yes, it's their nature to sin. People are not sinful because they sin, they sin because they are sinful. They are dead in trespasses and sins. They can never choose Christ not only because God tells us,
'There is none who seeks after God" (Rom. 3:11) but also because "There is none who understands" They do not understand the things of God, why? because they are separated from God spiritually. They are found condemned already. Jesus said,
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me, draws him," No one Jed can choose Christ, they do not have the ability.
---Mark_V. on 9/19/13


Kathr, nothing or no one is outside the will of God. If there is someone are something working outside the will of God, then God is not God. You say'
"This is a bold face LIE." you are bold to call God's word a lie. You say it because you are in darkness, and cannot see the light. All things are sustain by the will of God. Nothing exist outside the will of God.
"He doeth according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay His hand" (Dan. 4:35). For
"He worked all things after the counsel of His own will" All things Kathr (Eph. 1:11). When you call God's word a lie, you are speaking for the antichrist.
---Mark_V. on 9/19/13


1 John 1:5
This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all..
---kathr4453 on 9/18/13


So MarkV, your saying that people choose to sin now?
---Jed on 9/18/13


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Nothing or no one is outside of God.
---Mark_V. on 9/18/13

This is a bold face LIE. scripture speaks of those OUTSIDE /WITHOUT, meaning outside of God. You are now sounding NEW-AGE here MarkV.
---kathr4453 on 9/18/13


Jed, the God of the Bible is the restrainer of sin. When something happens that's evil, it's because God permitted or allowed it to happen for His own purpose and glory. In the case of Jacobs brothers, God had a purpose for the people, and permitted his brothers to sin in order for His purpose to be done in the salvation of all those who would have died if Jacob had not been sold and got to the position he was in. God did not make his brothers sin, all God did was allowed them to sin to a certain extent. He could have stopped it but didn't. He can stop sin at anytime. The death of Jesus was ordained by God. The people who killed Him were responsible for what they did, yet it was ordained by God that they would. God knows what is in man's heart.
---Mark_V. on 9/18/13


So it looks like Markv and Christan are promoting SIN....so are we all ( saved and lost) to continue sinning that GRACE may abound? From what you two say God NEEDS our sin to make things work out for a higher cause.

Oh, I know, God needed to teach man to build a boat....so in order to do so, he caused all to sin so horribly up until Noah, that that was the only way man could possibly understand boats and how to build one, and how they floated on water. God just capitalized on the sin of man and the flood as an excuse for a higher cause....BOATS.
---kathr4453 on 9/18/13


Jed 2: sometimes I don't understand what God people speak of here. Our God is in control of all things, He sustains all things. Nothing or no one is outside of God. All things that we are told will happen, will happen. Nothing is going to change what the outcome will be for all things. Though we see things looking like they are out of control all over, God has everything in control even the devil. The existence of everything is control by God. We only see with our finite eyes and understand with our finite understanding, but God knows all things before we even make them, because He ordained all things to be as He wanted.
---Mark_V. on 9/18/13


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The story of Joseph and his brothers was a TYPE/ shadow also of Christ being betrayed by his brothers, and the ultimate repentance of his brothers in the end AFTER the Gentiles were Blessed. This is whatRomans 9-11 is all about, YET YOU are too blind to see the connection there, cutting short the final outcome that through all of it, God is going to turn again to Israel, just as Joseph forgave his brothers and brought them all to Egypt to be blessed and saved through that FOR- ordained famine. Their own sin, the brothers, resulted in their own salvation and forgiveness. You and MarkV always leave that part out. OH yes, the GENTILES were blessed through it all, but were NOT JACOB I LOVED, or the CLAY in the potters hand....ISRAEL WAS.
---kathr4453 on 9/18/13


Is Christ the author of our sins?

Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.



---jerry6593 on 9/18/13


Jed,

- Did "Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel" crucify the Son of God? Our answer would then be a simple YES, isn't it? No problem there.

- But is that the whole story of the wicked act that came upon the Lord Jesus Christ? Scripture then continued, "were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."

Does this make God evil for predestinating the death of His own Son under the hands of wicked people? Solomon even declared, "The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." And guess what day was this? Acts 4:26-28 is your answer.
---christan on 9/17/13


But God takes all the sins we do and turns them for good. When Jacobs brothers sold Jacob, they sold him because they were jealous of him, they sinned. But God turned their sin for good, for many were saved because of their sins.
No matter the sin, the conclusion will be what God ordained it to be. Yet God cause no one to sin. People who accuse God of making people sin, something has to be really wrong with them. WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS STATEMENT?

---Mark_V. on 9/17/13


God DOES NOT take all the sin we do and turn it for good. So you are saying all the sin of those child molesters will turn to good? YIKES!
---kathr4453 on 9/17/13


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MarkV, listen to yourself! You contradict yourself. You say that God has ordained and predestined every action that people do. And that man has no part in determining whether they will remain sinners or be saved. Then you say God is not responsible for people being sinners. That's a contradiction. Make up your mind. Either man has chosen to be a sinner, or God chose that for him.
---Jed on 9/17/13


Jed, who said God makes people love sin? I know I didn't. People love sin because they are sinners. Born sinners. All descendants of Adam are born that way. Sinners love what they do, and God doesn't make them do what they do. But God takes all the sins we do and turns them for good. When Jacobs brothers sold Jacob, they sold him because they were jealous of him, they sinned. But God turned their sin for good, for many were saved because of their sins.
No matter the sin, the conclusion will be what God ordained it to be. Yet God cause no one to sin. People who accuse God of making people sin, something has to be really wrong with them.
---Mark_V. on 9/17/13


"Listen up this time. When you sin - and oh, yes you do - who is responsible? YOU or GOD?" jerry6593

I have no problem at all that I'll be held accountable to God for my sins even though I've been predestined to fall into sin. Do I blame God? Far be from it! Far be from it! I EXALT HIM!

"For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?"
Romans 11:32-35
---christan on 9/16/13


MarkV: If stupidity were an Olympic event, you'd take the gold!

It is YOU who claim than man has no freedom of choice - not me. If man has no free will, then he can't choose to sin, now can he? If he doesn't make the choice to sin, then who does? God?

Your logic escapes me. You rail constantly against man's free will, and when someone takes YOUR theory to its logical conclusion (as in this blog), you jump to the other side and attack your own point of view. You remind me of Obama - taking up both sides of a controversy - just in case.



---jerry6593 on 9/17/13


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//christan * You seriously think "both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel" had the authority over their actions?//

Yes they had the authority over their actions to choose to release Jesus or not. They choose to kill Jesus for they personal benefit with full accountablility and responsiblty. God knowing all things even the free will of humans. Then choose (free will of God) to send his son at that time to redeem the world. Matthew 26:4,5, Matt 27:20, Matthew 27:25,
---Scott1 on 9/17/13


Christ told Pilate before His death, "Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above"? Go figure...

Pilate had the choose to release him but choose not to. Also Jesus had the authority to escape but choose not to. This is what Christ meant not that God was controlling Pilate actions
---Scott1 on 9/17/13


Hello,everybody, thanks for all you who had me in your prayers.
Now,like Shira4368 says we all know who we are & yes,I admit there!

I came oh' Lord "dribble- tears!" God help me,sick or unwise decision,had to beg Lord help me out ...
all respect, Bro.Mark Honrestly, you get emotional and maybe it's a guy thing but I do not think it was a stupid question
...hey,I got to say I think it was a good question!

Anything that concerns the scriptures can not be called stupid, we are here to learn.. in love I stand and say this
Love of Jesus, Lidia4796
---Lidia4796 on 9/16/13


MarkV, if God makes people love sin, then He has caused them to sin.
---Jed on 9/16/13


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Jerry, when you sin are you saying God made you sin? God does not make anyone sin. They sin because they love sin. Did God put a gun to your head so that you would sin? That is a very stupid question you asked. All are sinners Jerry, for all come short of the glory of God. But God only saves those He wills to save. You just don't like for God to have that right. Say it. Do not hide it. That is what really turns your stomach. You want sinful man to have that right not God. Your real fight is against the right of God to have mercy on whom He wills. You demand that God have mercy on all. Otherwise in your understanding it is not right. But who are you O man to speak against God? you are but clay formed the way God wanted to form you.
---Mark_V. on 9/16/13


Christan: Listen up this time. When you sin - and oh, yes you do - who is responsible? YOU or GOD?

Answer please, and without the irrelevant drivel this time.



---jerry6593 on 9/16/13


jerry6593, to answer your foolishness to predestination, Paul declares in Romans 9:20-22,

"THOU WILT SAY THEN UNTO ME, WHY DOTH HE YET FIND FAULT? FOR WHO HATH RESISTED HIS WILL?

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction..."


So, who art you "o man that repliest against God?" You have a problem He made you reject predestination?
---christan on 9/15/13


christan * Ruben, "The difference between responsibility and accountability is that responsibility involves having authority over one's actions whereas accountability is being liable or answerable for one's actions."

Thanks, means our actions and the results go hand in hand! If you kill someone you are responsibil and will be held accountabil for it.

christan * You seriously think "both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel" had the authority over their actions?

Yes, makes no sense for scripture tell us that Pilate try to set him free and also said "I have no basis for a charge against him"(JHN 19:6)
---Ruben on 9/15/13


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Predestinationalists: The Bible claims that there will be a judgement, and that all mankind will be judged according to their works. If, as you assert, we indeed have no choice in our actions, and God controls our will, then who will be judged guilty of our sins in the judgment? To pronounce us guilty for sins and punish us with torture for things we had no ability to avert, is a grave injustice, and makes a mockery of our righteous judge.

Flip Wilson was famous for saying "The devil made me do it." You guys have put God in Satan's place by your belief that "God made me do it".




---jerry6593 on 9/15/13


Shira, predestination is found many times in the Bible and you do not believe it. Free will is never found in the Bible and you believe that. Why? You say,
"trey, God made us the way we are. He won't force anyone to come to Him." God's word says, "there is none who seeks after God" (Rom. 3:11) No one lost seeks after God, how can they be saved? God has to give them the ability to seek God. Without it, he will never seek God. Is God forcing him to seek Him? No, He is giving him the ability he did not have. Why do you not believe?
When we get on our knees to pray, without been selfish, we ask God to save others around us. We know only God can change their hearts towards Christ. yet you still do not believe.
---Mark_V. on 9/15/13


Ruben, "The difference between responsibility and accountability is that responsibility involves having authority over one's actions whereas accountability is being liable or answerable for one's actions."

You seriously think "both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel" had the authority over their actions? Because what follows is a flat NO, because Peter and John declared, "...were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done." - it's been purposed!

Christ told Pilate before His death, "Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above"? Go figure...
---christan on 9/14/13


trey, God made us the way we are. He won't force anyone to come to Him. the only time many pray is when they are in trouble. sickness, death, whatever, they call on God. Im guilty of that sometimes. God knows what we need and will supply in His time.
---shira4368 on 9/14/13


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Predestination has nothing to do with sin. To make this statement shows a lack of biblical understanding. Many of you deny that predestination is scriptural. You think of it as a bad thing. Predestination deals with the love that God has for his elect. It shows that inspite of our sinful nature he is all powerful and able to save whom he loves.

Many want to claim that man and not God has the power of free will.

Have you forgotten that he is GOD and you are only a man?
---trey on 9/14/13


"...do not believe that GOD has the power to give us free will." Sameulbb7

Where does it say explicitly in Scripture that God has "endowed" mankind with freewill? Find the verse and I'll be glad to sit in the same boat as you.


"Yes to many predestination means that GOD causes us to sin."

Really? I'm a believer of predestination 100%, have you ever heard me saying that "God causes us to sin"? You see, there's a gulf of a difference between purposed and causing. One proclaims an act of a Sovereign God and the other, an evil person.

"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve..." Joshua 24:15
---christan on 9/14/13


Samuel, sometimes you speak of things you know nothing about. Here you say,
"Some Calvinist agree with them.
You see some Calvinist do not believe that GOD has the power to give us free will"
we don't believe it because it is not in the Bible. The reason it is not in the Bible is because there is only one God who is autonomous. If man had a free will, they too would be autonomous, a law unto themselves. But they are not. Only God is autonomous. If God gave that ability to sinful sinners they would all be autonomous. But they are guilty for rebelling against God who is Autonomous. His law.
If man made spontaneous decisions, his will would be free. Think what you say before you say it.
---Mark_V. on 9/14/13


Samuel 2: people make choices everyday, but the unsaved has no ability to choose Christ as their Savior. Believe Scripture.
"There is none who understands, there is none who seeks after God" (Rom. 3:11) Jesus said concerning salvation,
"With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible" (Matt. 19:26). Jesus said,
"This is the work of God, that you believe in Him who He sent" Believing in God is the Work of God (John 6:29).
Jesus said no one has the ability to come to Him,
"No One can come to Me""unless the Father who sent Me draws him" only way they can come to Christ is if the Father draws them.
---Mark_V. on 9/14/13


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samuelb7, atheist don't believe in anything. we know that God is all powerful and He created us to have free will. I have been praying for atheist that is on the blogs here. there are a few calvanist here but they have a warped up belief. God bless you.
---shira4368 on 9/14/13


No, God does not cause anyone to sin. It is only Satan that deceives people to sin Gen.3:1-7.
---Adetunji on 9/14/13


Many who are not Christians commit some sins and do not commit others. To me that means we have the power to choose. Today a number of atheists say humans do not have free will. They are programed by nature and nurture.

Some Calvinist agree with them.

You see some Calvinist do not believe that GOD has the power to give us free will. They insist that GOD must do everything because he has the power to do so. GOD cannot limit himself according to them.

But JESUS while GOD limited himself as a man and GOD has the ability to give us free will.

Yes to many predestination means that GOD causes us to sin.
---Samuelbb7 on 9/13/13


Ruben, sad to say for you that Isaiah 46:11 has everything to do with all that's happening in this world, including the fall of mankind. That Scripture wasn't pointing to a particular event but a mere declaration from God that "the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass, I have purposed it, I will also do it."

It simply means that it was in His will that the man's fall was to happen. And why not? Peter wrote in 1 Peter 1:20, "Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world" - about Christ's coming as a Savior. In order for that to happen, the man must fall first, and fall he did.
---christan on 9/13/13


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How does God know what you are going to do before you do it? Again the answer to you folly is in your words. You tell God your going to sin before you sin. He hears you heart before you sin. It starts as a seed then you sin that is your harvest. If you sow his word the sin will leave you, and your harvest will be blessing not sin. This is how the word works. That is the mystery that Jesus gave use in Mark chapter 4
---Bryan on 9/13/13


Let no man say when he is tempted "I am tempted by God": for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither does He Himself tempt any man.
---Jed on 9/13/13


Jerry, no, not the real meaning of predestination.
---kathr4453 on 9/13/13


christan* "Did God CAUSE Eve to eat the forbidden fruit, or did Satan tempt her and she respond with a conscious CHOICE on her own to obey the word of the enemy rather than that of God?" - "Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass, I have purposed it, I will also do it."

That scripture verse has nothing to do with Eve:

" And He said, Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from" (Gen 3:11)



)
---Ruben on 9/13/13


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\\jerry 6593, "Do we have the power of choice - the FREE WILL - the FREEDOM TO CHOOSE" A DEFINITE NO!\\

So, christan, you are saying that you don't have control over the silly things you say?

OK, then. That explains a lot about you.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/13/13


christan * Ruben, It's a statement, not an accusation. It confirms the saying that God is Sovereign and man WILL BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE (notice I didn't say responsible).

It's the same thing:)

christan * Predestinating the creature to commit an act of wickedness does not equate to God tempting the creature. None better than written in Acts 4:27,28,
Case closed.

Again not so, God knows what we are going to do and will not change our mind! ex:

"As for me , I I find no basis for a charge against him" (JHn 19:70

" From then on, Pilate tried to set Jesus free, but the Jews kept shouting"(JHN 19:12)
---Ruben on 9/13/13


jerry 6593, "Do we have the power of choice - the FREE WILL - the FREEDOM TO CHOOSE" A DEFINITE NO!

"- to sin or do we not?" WE'RE ALL BORN DEAD IN SINS AND TRESPASSES, IT'S OUR FULLTIME OCCUPATION! IT'S A GIVEN!

"Did God CAUSE Eve to eat the forbidden fruit, or did Satan tempt her and she respond with a conscious CHOICE on her own to obey the word of the enemy rather than that of God?" - "Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass, I have purposed it, I will also do it."

:)
---christan on 9/13/13


ACCOUNTABLE (notice I didn't say responsible).

Christian Please explain the difference. Thanks
---Scott1 on 9/13/13


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OK Christan, since you seem to be trying to have it both ways, the question simply boils down to this:

Do we have the power of choice - the FREE WILL - the FREEDOM TO CHOOSE - to sin or do we not? Answer this question and we can move on. Don't, and we can't.

Did God CAUSE Eve to eat the forbidden fruit, or did Satan tempt her and she respond with a conscious CHOICE on her own to obey the word of the enemy rather than that of God?



---jerry6593 on 9/13/13


"Does predestination imply that God causes us to sin? " No.
Father has "predestinated [those He foreknew] unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will. In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who works all things after the counsel of his own will: For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son." Eph 1:5,11>Rom 8:29
---Josef on 9/13/13


"The ridiculous idea that God predestined individuals before they were even born, makes Him complicit and responsible for our sorry situation!" 1stCliff

"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth... As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid." Romans 9:11,13,14

A creature who's made from dust dare question his maker? "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?" Romans 9:20
---christan on 9/12/13


The Father determined that He would fashion those whom He foreknew into the image of Christ. To make clear just how this predestination fits into God's over-all plan of salvation...CHAIN OF GRACE: And those He predestined He also called, and those He called, He also justified, and those He justified He also glorified. In each link God is the One acting, and persons are object of the action [you can see how important that is for us humans, object of Acton]. So, there is no possibility that someone initially predestined would fail to be finally glorified [John 6:37-40, Romans 8]. SIN: is the root cause of all the problems of humanity. The Bible does not give a complete account of the origin of sin. GOD IS IN NO WAY RESPONSIBLE FOR SIN.
---catherine on 9/12/13


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Ruben, please read James 1:13,14 carefully and understand the context of what James is saying. He's precisely speaking to the likes of your kind. It's a statement, not an accusation. It confirms the saying that God is Sovereign and man WILL BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE (notice I didn't say responsible).

Predestinating the creature to commit an act of wickedness does not equate to God tempting the creature. None better than written in Acts 4:27,28, "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done." Acts 4:27,28

Case closed.
---christan on 9/12/13


The ridiculous idea that God predestined individuals before they were even born , makes Him complicit and responsible for our sorry situation!
"choose life" He said ,if we were predestined, we could not make a "choice"!
---1st_cliff on 9/12/13


No, he does not make us sin. However, because he knows our free will choice to sin. He is able to bring about his righteousness plan due to our sin. This is what makes him soverign.
---Scott1 on 9/12/13


christan *"Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth He yet find fault? For who hath resisted His will?



Problem solved.

Not so fast my friend, the books of james tell us:

" When tempted, no one should say God is tempting me. For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone, But each one is tempted when, by HIS OWN EVIL DESIRE (James 1:13-14) NIV

But you say God does!!
---Ruben on 9/12/13


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Ps.51:5 Surely, I was sinfull at birth since my mother conceived me.

The whole world since the book of Genesis, full of corruption.I believe the basic the fall of man( Adam & Eve)con'd-

We see Is.57:20the wicked are like the tossing sea..
Gen.6:11,12. Jer.17:9 Ps.37:35 2Ti.3:2,3,4,5,6,7.
NIV1Jn.2:16For everything in the world-
The cravings of sinfull man,the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does- does not come from the Father but from the world.
---Lidia4796 on 9/12/13


"Does predestination imply that God causes us to sin?"

Not even close! It simply means that God is Sovereign and He will hold the man accountable for the sins committed which He has predestined.

"Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth He yet find fault? For who hath resisted His will?

Nay but, O man, WHO ART THOU THAT REPLIEST AGAINST GOD? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"
Romans 9:18-21

Problem solved.
---christan on 9/12/13


Why? We do it pretty good with out his help in that area.
---Bryan on 9/11/13


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