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Unbelievers Tormented Forever

Do you believe that unbelievers will truly be tormented for eternity? There are verses in Revelation that state otherwise!

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 ---mel on 9/15/13
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Christan, NEWS FLASH!!! YOU did not exist before the foundation of the world. ...unless you believe as Mormons do that you were a spirit baby just floating around until you came and entered into human flesh.

Paul in Ephesians is talking about THE CHURCH being chosen IN HIM to be holy and blameless. And the fact that WE are ADOPTED SONS has to do with our POSITION. The CHURCH will have a HIGHER position than anyone else saved from the beginning of time until the end.
---kathr4453 on 10/4/13


Jerry, Nowhere.....not in one single place in the Scriptures, does it say that the Lake of Fire was created for, or will be used for, the "cleansing the Earth".
You must've quoted that from one of the very lost Books of the Bible, like the one called the "Book of Jerry".

The Lake of Fire was designed for one purpose and one purpose only,

and that's for the Damnation and eternal Punishment of the Devil and his fallen angels (and now, for the GOD-rejecting, wicked of mankind).

GOD will destroy this old Earth with fire alright.

And, it will pass away with a BANG.

And, then, GOD will create a whole brand new Earth, and new Heavens, for HIS people and HIS Glory. REVELATION 21:1-2.
---Gordon on 10/4/13


There are really some empty gongs going about speaking their own doctrines with regards to salvation and who are chosen for salvation. Paul was explicit about salvation,

"According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will" Ephesians 1:4,5

A sheep will always be a sheep and so too a goat will always be a goat. Though both are born dead in sins and trespasses, Christ died for His sheep only, not the goats.

Heresy? Or Truth?
---christan on 10/4/13


Gordon: "As long as the Lake of Fire exists (and that shall be for Eternity),"

You must be reading from the book of Gordon again. My Bible does not say that the lake of fire lasts for eternity. It does say, however, that Sodom and Gomorrah suffered the vengeance of "eternal fire", but those cities are not still burning today. The lake of fire "cleanses" the earth made new and the wicked become "ashes under our feet". I don't think that God intends that the saved would enjoy eternity while walking on hot coals, do you?



---jerry6593 on 10/4/13


theresa, you say,
"Are you serving God because you LOVE Him or because you FEAR never ending punishing."
We are serving God because He first loved us who believe. He moves every believer for Christ lives in him. Do we fear God? Of course we do. We know He is the Ultimate cause of us living or dying. And the ultimate cause of the wicked, who are not his children, for their punishment in hell. God is never cruel, He never inflicts a punishment worse then the crime. All get what they deserve according to God, not according to us.
We think we have better idea's sometimes then God. But we don't, because God knows all things.
---Mark_V. on 10/4/13




Christan, NO ONE who comes into this world is a child of God RE: being begotten SONS that is through Jesus Christ. You make it sound like people are already born saved. YOU didn't become a son until you first RECEIVED Him. THEN you became a son.

All humans are born dead in sin. Not one single human is born a son, EXCEPT JESUS CHRIST. He is the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON. The only other sons are the angels.

Now through Christ ALONE we become BEGOTTEN through Jesus Christ and His death and resurrection.

You are teaching heresy Christan. Or are you teaching Mormonism? Certainly not Christianity .
---kathr4453 on 10/4/13


I wonder what sort of happiness there can be in heaven if we know one or more of our loved ones are being tortured the whole time we are living. Scripture says there will be no tears.

Will we become so unloving, unfeeling that we can be happy with that situation.
---therese on 10/4/13


"I wonder how many of them would purposely torture THEIR OWN children. They must think themselves more merciful than God." jerry6593

"That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." Romans 9:8

Sadly for you and Samuelbb7, according to the apostle Paul, not "everyone" that comes into this world is a child of God. Hence, those who are not His, they go to the Lake of Fire. Whether you like it or not, it doesn't matter an iota, that's the Truth of the Gospel. It's written in black and white, you can't change what is written. No one can.

So, deal with it.
---christan on 10/3/13


Therese, The Bible says that the Fear of GOD is the beginning of Knowledge and Wisdom, PSALMS 111:10, PROVERBS 1:7 and 9:10,
If you're in sin, HE SHOULD be feared!!!

I serve GOD because I love HIM. Because I RESPECT HIM.

And, the knowledge of GOD's Judgment of Eternal Damnation helped me to see the truth of GOD's hatred and Judgment against sin, and how important it is to truly forsake sin, to repent of sin, and to walk in HIS Love and Holiness.

You cannot know and love GOD and ignore or down-size the greatness of HIS Wrath and coming Judgment against sin.

GOD's Wrath and Judgment are WITHIN the Love of GOD.

And, GOD Almighty IS Love.
---Gordon on 10/3/13


Therese, GOD is everywhere. Is HE not?

As long as the Lake of Fire exists (and that shall be for Eternity), then GOD shall be around.

But, again, it will be HIS Almighty Wrath ALONE that HE will be manifesting in the presence of the Damned.

HE will not be "chained up". What's THAT all about?

I don't know "technically" how GOD can do it this "Wrath only" business, but, HIS Ways are HIGHER than ours.
HIS Abilities HIGHER than ours.
ISAIAH 55:9.

I just know that HE can, being GOD and all.

HE just IS.

Our finite, limited minds cannot wrap themselves around GOD's awesome POWERS and Abilities.

But, HE is Who HE is.

Almighty YAH is HIS Name.
---Gordon on 10/3/13




The rich man went straight into hell and was tormented after he was buried but the beggar man went into Abrahams bosom.

There is no repentance beyond the grave and therefore, Luke's account cannot be taken likely, this account is also backed up else where, but is rejected as the word of God.

This stands to reason and if we think we are getting the right understanding by believing that, this word is not so, you may as well go rewrite the gospels to serve your itching ears.

I believe the word don't believe the explanation of man, read study and research the truth.
---Carla on 10/3/13


To think that one will cease to exist mocks at the very justice of God in His judgement of the wicked.
christan

How?

Do you believe that justice is placing someone on the Rack and torturing them? Should murders die by a thousand cuts? No where do I read that torture is justice.

JESUS said GOD will destroy the wicked. That is justice.
---Samuelbb7 on 10/3/13


therese: "Are you serving God because you LOVE Him or because you FEAR never ending punishing."

Sadly, many Christians have this "fire escape" mentality toward their God.

I wonder how many of them would purposely torture THEIR OWN children. They must think themselves more merciful than God.




---jerry6593 on 10/3/13


Gordon and others who believe God will punish the unsaved for all eternity.

Are you serving God because you LOVE Him or because you FEAR never ending punishing.

Just because one is following God's ways now does not mean you will be saved.

Read Ezekiel 18:21-24.
---therese on 10/2/13


TheSeg, thanks for the explanation on Matthew 10:28 and supporting it with Revelation 20:13.

The problem with many is they're not taught to confirm Scripture with Scripture, and that one verse alone doesn't make a doctrine.

The "destroy" as I understand pertains to "death", and it comes in two phases for the reprobates, first "dust you are dust you shall return" and when their soul and spirit are cast into Hades to await the Lake of Fire, then comes the "second death". "Death" itself is the last to enter into eternal damnation.

To think that one will cease to exist mocks at the very justice of God in His judgement of the wicked.
---christan on 10/2/13


Gordon, I appreciate your response, however I personally do not believe, nor does scripture support anything you have said as far as God spending eternity in outer darkness as the flames of wrath itself in the lake of fire. Many of The angels who fell are right this minute in the abyss held in chains until judgment day. God is not the literal chains either.

I believe God has all power to execute His wrath for all eternity without actually having to be forever present as the wrath.

we see the wrath of God will also come during the great tribulation who He sends His angels to execute.
---kathr4453 on 10/2/13


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Christan, I took what Therese said as it is written:
And fear not them which kill the body, but are (not able to kill the soul): but rather fear him (which is able to destroy both soul) and body in hell.

Not that he will!
But that he is able to destroy both soul and body in hell, if he so choose.

But I dont believe he does, because the dead are to be delivered up.
Rev_20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and (death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them): and they were judged every man according to their works.
And death and hell were cast into the lake, this is the second death.
Peace
---TheSeg on 10/2/13


Kathr, GOD's Wrath will keep Hell burning. (there are tons more of different kinds of Torments in Hell besides the burning Fires).
Likewise, GOD's Wrath will keep the Lake of Fire burning.
The thing is, GOD's Wrath must always be present in the eternal Lake of Fire, it must be FELT by the inhabitants there.
GOD's Anger, and HIS Silence (by not answering the Damned's cries for HIS Help and Mercy) must be FELT and recognized by all in the Fiery Lake, both by the fallen angels and the human souls.
We simply remember that GOD's Ways ARE above our ways, and that HE can do what we could never do in our limited, finite, human nature.
GOD will certainly be deliberately expressing HIS continual Wrath onto those in the Lake of Fire forever.
---Gordon on 10/2/13


Therese, so then we're on the same page, book and verse.
Very real, amen to that!
Peace
---TheSeg on 10/1/13


therese, my goodness! You actually think God created the man with a body, soul and spirit - only for Him to totally "destroy" everything and the man "doesn't exist" anymore? What's certain is that He'll destroy the body of flesh and blood, "dust you are dust you shall return".

Hell is a "place" where eternal death/punishment happens and those who go there will experience the complete wrath of God for all eternity. If you don't exist anymore, what's hell for? Nobody?



Brother markV, could you please email me, somehow my email addresses got all wiped out, including yours. Appreciate.
---christan on 10/2/13


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TheSeg on 9/30/13 Matt 10:28. Jesus was referring to God, yes. My purpose for using this verse is that it shows a soul, whatever it is. is not immortal and can be destroyed, killed, not to exist again.
---therese on 10/1/13


Gordon, yes, however I do not believe God will be spending His time in eternity as the very fire itself. God cannot join himself to wickedness. That was my point. MarkV has stated before God presence will be forever in Hell tormenting the unbelievers. I believe the absence of God will make hell even that much more horrible. hell will be OUTSIDE the New Creation. God is not going to have His Foot forever in both.
---kathr4453 on 10/1/13


Shira, you have never given me one passage where God states He gave man a free will. I have given you many passages that speak about God chosing us. You refuse to believe the passages so you reject them. You refuse to believe God has the power to save whom He wills. Why? because the god you created cannot do many things because sinful man won't let him. They have to give him permission some of you say, because it is not fair for him to save some and not all. That's what you and others are really saying. He is in bondage to you. You say, and He does. There is no other way to explain what you guys teach and believe and say.
Shira, God is Soverign and you and many others have already been throwing the sovereignty of God under the bus.
---Mark_V. on 10/1/13


Kathr4453, Different fires are started by different people.

A vandal would set a house on fire, out of mean-spiritedness.

But, the Fires of Hell are ignited by GOD.

On a lesser note,
we have GOD punishing the whining Israelites, in the wilderness, by setting their tents in the camp on fire.

GOD Himself did that!

GOD set someone's "house" on fire,
out of Judgment!

See NUMBERS 11:1-4.

It's HIS Holy Wrath that sets Hell on fire.
---Gordon on 10/1/13


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Markv, can you provide scripture that GOD Himself is the fire in hell? When a house burns down, is that God Himself burning it down?

Have you been baptized with fire? Have you been TRIED by fire? Do you actually see any hot flames with it?
---kathr4453 on 10/1/13


therese, that verse Matt_10:28!
(Fear him, Which is able to destroy!)
I always thought Christ was talking about God!
The very next line, he says:
Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing?
(and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.)
God ordains everything!
And you hearing this from somebody who believes Christ saved everyone.
But I also believe hell is a very, very real thing!

Rev_6:8 the guy on the horse (Is Death), (and Hell follow him.)
So youre not dead, youre being tormented wishing you were!
Not permanently!
Rev_20:13 and death and hell delivered up the dead!
Now the judgment!
Why would everybody from God to man be warning us?
Think about it.
Peace
---TheSeg on 9/30/13


---Cluny on 9/30/13 Same adjective before the word LIFE and DEATH.

Where we differ is our definition of death. To you DEATH is not DEATh but life in some form. To me DEATH is the opposite of LIFE. If your pet dies, is it really dead or living on somewhere.

Ecclesiastes 3:19-20 WHAT HAPPENS TO THE SONS OF MEN ALSO HAPPENS TO ANIMALS, AS ONE DIES SO DIES THE OTHER, THEY ALL HAVE ONE BREATH. ALL GO TO ONE PLACE, ALL ARE DUST AND ALL RETURN TO DUST.

Its only the acceptance of the gospel that gives life.
---therese on 9/30/13


ok ok ok markv, you use the same scripture over and over. u have your interpretation and I have mine. there are many scripture that throw your view under the bus. I have given them to you and you ignore me.
---shira4368 on 9/30/13


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Shira, you say,
"Theresa, when I read markv's post, it provokes me into once again try to tell him the truth about predestination." How can you tell me the truth about Predestination when you don't even know what it is? Have you studied the Sovereignty of God? Have you even studied who the God of the Bible is? Many of you talk about things you do not understand. What I say really gets you upset. You don't want God to have the right to do with His creation whatsover He pleases. God is not obligated to man for salvation, but He is obligated to bring Justice to the sinner. You have been given hundreds of Passages from the Word of God and what did you do? You reject all of them, because they speak of a God you don't believe in.
---Mark_V. on 9/30/13


\\My view is this lake of fire where the unsaved are consumed by fire from God has an end for it is on the earth and God will create new heavens and earth as stated in Revelation 20 and 21. \\

But the Bible's view, on the other hand, is that the duration of heaven and hell are exactly the same, because the same words are used to describe them.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/30/13


Remember Jesus said I set before you life or death. The word is a consuming fire, the word is the corner stone, all these things tell us the word has complete authority, life or death. It all dependence on how you use it, which way it burns in your life.
---Bryan on 9/30/13


Gordon, I'm not denying God is everywhere by His Spirit and God would be there if this place existed for all eternity.

My view is this lake of fire where the unsaved are consumed by fire from God has an end for it is on the earth and God will create new heavens and earth as stated in Revelation 20 and 21.

God will metre out judgment and appropriate punishment but it will end in complete destruction of sin and sinners. They and it will be no more.
---therese on 9/29/13


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Therese, Do you not believe that GOD is everywhere?

Is there any place where GOD cannot be?

It is GOD's Wrath that will be present in the Lake of Fire, JOHN 3:36.

It is GOD's Wrath that ignites the fires of Hell and of the Lake of Fire.

"If I ascend up into Heaven, THOU are there: If I make my bed in Hell, behold, THOU art there." PSALM 139:8
---Gordon on 9/29/13


theresa, you say,
"God is an all consuming fire I agree, but how come the unsaved are not consumed." God is the fire in hell. And the unsaved are going to be punished. Not annihilated. Then say,
" And what is God doing dwelling in hell," God is Omnipresent, everywhere at one time. Then say,
"The saddest thing is that some Christians believe a God of love could inflict worse punishment than the worst criminals who have ever lived." It is impossible for God to be cruel. Cruelty means to be unjust, inflicting a punishement that is more severe or harsh than the crime. God will surely do what is right. Not what you believe is right. Sin will end when God says so.
---Mark_V. on 9/29/13


Mark V God is an all consuming fire I agree, but how come the unsaved are not consumed.

And what is God doing dwelling in hell, I thought His dwelling will be with the saved in the new Jerusalem.

The saddest thing is that some Christians believe a God of love could inflict worse punishment than the worst criminals who have ever lived. It makes God a hypocrite for He tells us to love our enemies.

Surely a sovereign God who creates life can bring evil and sin and sinners to an end. Jesus said Fear Him who can DESTROY both body and SOUL in hell. Matt 10:28
---therese on 9/28/13


theresa, forget about Jersulam burning or not. What you should remember is that God is an all consumming fire. The problem in hell will not be separation from God, it will be the presence of God that will torment them. In Hell, God will be present in the fullness of His divine wrath. He will be there to exercise His just punishment of the damned. They will know Him as an all-consuming fire. The Bible clearly teaches that the punishment is eternal. The same word is used for both eternal life and eternal death. Punishment implies pain. If they died, there would be no pain.
---Mark_V. on 9/27/13


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It seems Jesus used the fire always burning on the rubbish tip of Jerusalem where worms were active feeding on decaying matter, known as Gehenna as an example of the fires to cleanse the earth of sin. Is this still the rubbish tip of Jerusalem today? NO.

The bible gives some details on inquenchable fire. Note Jeremiah 17:27 God said, I will kindle a fire in its gates and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem and IT SHALL NOT BE QUENCHED. Is it still burning?? NO.
---therese on 9/26/13


Theresa, when I read markv's post, it provokes me into once again try to tell him the truth about predestination. it grieves me to know he believes some are born just to go to hell. God does know all things but God can and will change His mind. God gives all humanity a chance to be saved.
---shira4368 on 9/26/13


theresa, you or anyone else do not have to answer my responses. you can reject the passages of Scripture all you want. If you do, it was ordained already you would. If you believe the Word, it was ordained you would believe. I'm not in control of life God is. He controls everything in the heavens and the earth.
You think because God is love, He cannot possibly display His justice, and punish those who have rebelled against Him. If that was true we would never had needed Christ to die for our sins. Punishing the rebelious people is the work of God.
---Mark_V. on 9/26/13


theresa 2: You said,
"You seem to want to introduce PREDESTINATION into every blog." No I don't. But when I do, it is to bring glory to God, not man.
What really bothers you and all those who oppose predestination, is that none of you, sinful at that, want God to have the authority to save whom He wills to save. you don't want that kind of God in your life. You as a sinful person want to have that authority. Only that way, He can be a good God. The anger and resistance by so many, is because you will find out that all through your life, you were wrong. But you are exactly where God wants you to be at this very moment. He might decide to open your eyes so you can see the Truth or He might not.
---Mark_V. on 9/26/13


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---Mark_V. on 9/21/13

Samuel, you say,
"Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
The problem we have with predestination........

Mark V, is this comment by Samuel on this blog. I cant find it.

You seem to want to introduce PREDESTINATION into every blog.

Bloggers please dont answer Marks comment on predestination here.
---therese on 9/25/13


Catherine 9/24/13 on Revelation 20:10.

The meaning of for ever and ever here is as Samuelbb7 describes it THE END OF THE AGE not necessarily going on for all eternity.

Note how many times the words 2nd death occurs in Rev 20 and 21. Anytime in scripture something is mentioned 3 times you can be sure its very important.

As other bloggers have said, the opposite of life is death.

Eternal life is a life never ending: eternal death, a death never ending, not a life at all.
---therese on 9/25/13


Catherine 9/24/13 spoke against those who say it is unfair of God to punish eternally a temporal sin.

I ask is it COMPATIBLE WITH A GOD OF LOVE to punish eternally.

God tells us to love our enemies, to forgive as He forgives us, yet would God do something so against what He taught.

Jesus spoke strongly against hypocrites.

God is Love 1 John 4:8 and God in His sovereignity cannot act against His character of love.

No wonder there are atheists when this horrible error is taught as part of Christianity. You also quote from Revelation 20:10-15. I will comment on that on my next posting.
---therese on 9/25/13


Sis. Catherine, I completely agree with all of your answers. Modern so call Christians have pushed the limits of minimizing hell in an effort to sidestep or soften the teachings of Jesus Christ. Almost all biblical teachings of hell come from the lips of Jesus. Hell as a place of torment where the worm does not die, a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth, a place of eternal separation from the blessings of God, a prison, a place of outer darkness, a lake of fire.
This images might be symbols and if they are, then we should conclude that the reality is even worse then the symbol suggest. The function of symbols is to point beyond themselves to a higher or more intense state of actuality than the symbol itself can contain.
---Mark_V. on 9/25/13


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The assertion that God would be unfair to punish eternally a temporal sin [relating to earthly life] underestimates the seriousness of sin, the spiritual nature of sin, and my favorite, the supreme holiness of God. God's word teaches that unrepentant, unforgiving sinners will be punished. In Revelation 20:10-15>>> "And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever"[abbreviate]. There are no Scriptures in Revelation which teaches anything different.
---catherine on 9/24/13


Samuel, you say,
"Rom 11:32
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
The problem we have with predestination is that you say this verse does not mean what it says."
The passage means what it says. The problem is with your interpretation. You think Paul is talking about the whole world when he says '"For God has committed them all to disobedience that He might have mercy on all" you believe he is talking about every single person which is wrong interpretation. His talking about those who are saved who were once in disobedience in (V. 30). He could not be talking about having mercy on all human beings since we know there is no Universal salvation.
---Mark_V. on 9/21/13


Stevebg: I taught many English as a Second Language students and adults who wrote better, using homophones correctly.
---Trish on 9/21/13


Revelation 20 pictures the lake of fire on the earth. If God then creates a new heavens and new earth recorded in Rev 21, what happens to the lake of fire?
---therese on 9/21/13


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"Everlasting contempt does not require anyone to be alive." samuelbb7

So then, who or what does God metes out His wrath of everlasting contempt to if no one is required to be present? Emptiness?

"Does for ever always mean for all eternity?"

You forget that you're just a finite creature made from dust living in the time, space and matter continuum. God was just being condescending to His creatures when He used words like "forever and ever" in the Bible to imply eternal, or else you wouldn't understand. Not that you do anyways.
---christan on 9/20/13


Trish : "Learning to write homophones (there, their, and they're) is taught in 4th and 5th grades. No higher education needed. Adults who misuse them are either lazy, or didn't pay attention in school."

Truly spoken by an overly educated person that has no knowledge of the less fortunate and have a narrow view of who knows English. There are two more reasons why a person cannot speak or write as well as you, Cluny, and Mark V. One, those who are learning English for the first time and are taking ESL courses and, two, immigrants who have been in the U.S. for some time and have a basic knowledge of English, but need to work to survive.

You must remember that no one is as perfect as you, Cluny, and Mark V.
---Steveng on 9/20/13


Samuelb7, But, in order for the souls of the Damned to experience and sense Almighty GOD's Everlasting Contempt, they have to be alive forever in the Lake of Fire.
For, if the souls of the Damned were simply "annihilated", there would be no one existing for GOD to show an everlasting Contempt towards.
---Gordon on 9/20/13


Learning to write homophones (there, their, and they're) is taught in 4th and 5th grades. No higher education needed. Adults who misuse them are either lazy, or didn't pay attention in school.
---Trish on 9/20/13


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Everlasting contempt does not require anyone to be alive.


Exd 21:6
Then his master shall bring him unto the judges, he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post, and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul, and he shall serve him for ever.

Does for ever always mean for all eternity? Aion has the following meanings. I. for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity

II.the worlds, universe

III.period of time, age

Since eternal life is not promised to the wicked. I believe it has meaning III
---Samuelbb7 on 9/19/13


Cluny: "PLEASE, Bryan, learn the correct words to use."

There aren't many people in the world that are as highly educated as you are Cluny. But many people know in the spirit what [they're, their, there] saying. You should try it sometime.
---Steveng on 9/19/13


Bro. Christan, you are correct. Death has several meanings in Scripture. The word is "Thanatos" It means natural or temporal in (Matt. 10:21: 16:28: Luke 2:28) in (1 John 5:16) it means a premature physical death (Ecc. 7:17: Jer. 14:11,12: 34:18-20: Acts 5:1-11: 1Cor. 11:30) it means spiritual death (John 5:24: 1 John 3:14:). As spiritual life consist in constant communication with God who is life, so spiritual death is the separation from His blessed, Eternal death (Rom. 6:21,23: James 5:20: 1 John 3:14) and is called, the Second death (Rev. 2:11: 20:6, 17) and implies everlasting punishment (Rev. 21:8). So that death has several meaning in Scripture.
---Mark_V. on 9/20/13


"...eternal death means NO LIFE for the rest of eternity." MarkEaton

"The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God." Psalm 9:17, "The sinners in Zion are afraid, fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?" Isaiah 33:14

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." Daniel 12:2, "And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." Revelation 20:10

Go argue with God.
---christan on 9/19/13


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The second death is also known as eternal death, not that the unbeliever cease to exist.
---christan on 9/17/13

Again, you want to define the word death as something other than the absense of life.

If eternal life means life for the rest of eternity, eternal death means NO LIFE for the rest of eternity.

How can you have the faith of a child but try to read the Bible like a Harvard scholar? Death is the opposite of life, even a toddler knows that. Don't make it complicated.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/18/13


Cluny, Yes, there's a great distinction between Hades and Gehenna.

As I mentioned earlier, Hades (Hell) and Gehenna (Lake of Fire) are two different places.

"Hell/Hades/Sheol" is the temporary place of Damnation for the unsaved.
And this Hell shall be cast into the Lake of Fire one day (REVELATION 20:14.)

And the "Lake of Fire/Second Death/Gehenna" will be the eternally existing place of Torments and Damnation for the unsaved, the Devil and his fallen angels, MATTHEW 25:41 and REVELATION 20:14.

Some preach and teach that "Hell" is forever.
But, it's not.
The Lake of Fire is Forever.

We can use the term Eternal Damnation to encompass both Hell and the LOF at the same time.
---Gordon on 9/18/13


Gordon, that's why I prefer to use 2 separate words: sheol and gehenna.

However, Greek liturgical and patristic texts also distinguish between hades and gehenna.

It's just the KJV and common speech that conflate, if not confuse, them.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/17/13


Mel: There's no reason to believe otherwise. In fact, unbelievers & believers are tormented (frustrated, DEFEATED) in this life by sin. But, believers constantly repent & are freed from the penalty of sin, & experience significantly diminished personal torment while living on earth. Torment doesn't follow believers into heaven, e.g., Lazarus dying & going to Abraham's bosom. But, for unbelievers (people who die in sin) their personal torment goes with them into hell just like the rich man in Luke 16:19-31.

Many people think God torments, even tortures souls. That's a lie, not Bible accurate truth. Souls in rebellion against God torments & TORTURES HIM/HERSELF because nothing good comes from running away from God.
---Leon on 9/17/13


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Cluny, The English word "Hell" IS the same thing as "Hades" and "Sheol".

"Hades" is the Greek word for what we English call "Hell".

And, "Sheol" is the Hebrew equivalent for our English word "Hell".

side note: It's that Hell (Hades/Sheol) is different than the Lake of Fire (Second Death/Gehenna).
---Gordon on 9/17/13


\\Afraid their not going to make it to heaven\\

"THEIR" is the possessive of "they".

"THEY'RE" is the contraction for "they are."

"THERE" means "in that place."

PLEASE, Bryan, learn the correct words to use.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/16/13


"Therefore, what becomes absent of life in the second death?" MarkEaton

The goodness of God.

The second death is also known as eternal death, not that the unbeliever cease to exist. Eternal death is where only God's wrath will be demonstrated to the fullest forever, aka eternal.

We, who are finite creatures have no idea what eternal even means, that's why Christ and the Holy Bible uses the finite things of this world to give us a vague picture of the meaning of torment forever and ever. Imagine having worms eating into your flesh - you're not dead and can never die and it doesn't stop at all. That's the gruesome picture Christ is painting with regards to eternal death.
---christan on 9/17/13


Same way you received Jesus as you savior, You believe in him. His word is the same way you believe it works for you not against you.
---Bryan on 9/17/13


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"For our God is a consuming fire." (Hebrews 12:29)

If we are in God's love resisting Satan, we can burn him from us.

"Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you." (James 4:7)

There is "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience." (in Ephesians 2:2)

If there is no flaming sewer, where is the filth of Satan's evil spirit going to go? And if people are volunteering to be buckets of his sewage, this is not God's fault. They will go where their contents must go.

And fire is "maybe" the only thing that can effectively control Satan and his stubborn ones.
---willie_c: on 9/17/13


I see believers tormented now. Why is that? Not unbelievers but believers in JESUS. TORMENTED. Afraid their not going to make it to heaven not knowing the truth about Jesus. So they give up. False teaching does this to babies in Christ. God said something about tying a bolder around their necks and throwing they in the deep part of the ocean. Your putting your life in your on hands when you tell people your religious rules. God gives freedom and a bunch of other things and you receive them by believing not by doing
---Bryan on 9/16/13


Cluny, FYI hell is mentioned 65 times in the OT, 31 of those it's translated "grave"
Another 31 times it's just called "hell" once as "pit" also just "death" (no consistency here)
The root word for our English word hell is the German "holle" nothing to do with "fire"
Gehenna was a garbage dump outside Jerusalem kept burning with sulfur used as a metaphor by Jesus!
---1st_cliff on 9/16/13


"If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the lamb." (in Revelation 14:9-10)

So, it is not wise to accuse God of being a sadist because of this. These people have been sadists, arguing and complaining and being unforgiving and misleading people. They reap what they have sown.

But if the fire is God (Hebrews 12:29), we in His unselfish love can not be hurt (1 Peter 3:13) . . . like how metal can not be burned by fire (c:
---willie_c: on 9/16/13


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\\Hell (Sheol/Hades) is the common grave of mankind.\\

Except for the fact that hell and hades/sheol are not the same.

This is one of the confusions the KJV translators made.

As I've said elsewhere on the subject, I use "gehenna" to mean place of eternal punishment and "sheol" for the place of departed spirits in my liturgical translations (a task not unlike translating the Bible), because "hell" and "hades" have gotten confused in many people's minds, such as yours--not to say trivialized.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/16/13


Cluny, **I don't know how hell works exactly**
Then allow me to enlighten you:
Hell (Sheol/Hades) is the common grave of mankind.
People are placed in there to await resurrection. (be it a tomb, grave, cremated ashes ,whatever All await Jesus' voice to live again with a "new" body!
BTW they are not conscious during this time, as Jesus used the synonym "sleep" (as with Lazarus)From the time you went to bed last night 'till you awoke this morning you have no concept of "that" time....get it?
---1st_cliff on 9/16/13


Do you believe that unbelievers will truly be tormented for eternity?
---mel on 9/15/13

My answer is threefold.

First, the Lake of Fire will burn forever (Mark 9:43).

Second, the devil, the beast, the false prophet, and other angels will be tortured forever (Rev. 20:10, Jude 1:7)

Third, the second death for people is a death of the soul. However, nowhere does the Bible explictly say this. But Rev 20:14 says that the Lake of Fire is the second death. Death can be defined as an absense of life. Our physical death results in absense of life from our physical body. Therefore, what becomes absent of life in the second death?
---Mark_Eaton on 9/16/13


1stcliff, argue with Jesus, not me.

I don't know how hell works exactly. I just want o avoid finding out by first hand experience.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/16/13


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Cluny, From your quote we have.
Immortal worms and a fire that doesn't go out,
How does this translate into the torture of humans??
We have tangible worms from a wisp of air? (soul/spirit)
---1st_cliff on 9/16/13


mel, There are Verses in Revelation that indicate that unbelievers WILL be tormented Forever and ever.

REVELATION 14:9-11 being a classic example.

Note that the Lake of Fire at which the Devil and his fallen angels will be forever assigned to is the same Lake of Fire that the unbelievers will be going to.

For the unbelievers are, whether, deliberately or inadvertedly, following the Devil, so will likewise share his fate!

Also see REVELATION 20:12-15.


okay, now, About those Revelation Verses that show otherwise...?
---Gordon on 9/15/13


Jesus said of those in hell that "their worm dies not and the fire is NOT quenched." If what you are saying was true in itself, that would make Jesus a liar.

So Revelation can't be taken in isolation from what Jesus said earlier.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/15/13


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