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Ancient Time Juices

Someone here said that in ancient times, juices could be preserved by boiling, filtration, cold storage, and sulphur fumigation. As well, grapes could be preserved and squeezed later.

Are there any references to such practices in ancient documents that can be presented to confirm this statement?

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 ---Cluny on 9/17/13
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Shira, maybe the grapes had been washed, removing the natural yeast from their skins. Secondly the temperature of your refrigerator is too low to allow the fermentation process to begin.
---Warwick on 10/23/13


Ive had grapes to mold. wonder why it didn't ferment. that could have made me feel real good. Ive had grapes to mold in my fridge.
---shira4368 on 10/23/13


Elder, in reality the fermentation process produced alcohol which preserved the fruit and the juice. Isn't God smart, he gave ancient peoples a way of preserving fruit without toxic chemicals, vacuum packing or refrigeration!
---Warwick on 10/22/13


elder, God knew you would have the rotten juice and if someone comes over, it is already pre-determined.
---shira4368 on 10/21/13


Where do you live Elder? I'm very thirsty today--hehehe :D God bless, Mary
---Mary on 10/21/13




Hey, folks, I've got some fruit that has spoiled and rotted. It has left a juice in the bottom of the bucket. Anyone wantta come over and drink it? burb.....
---Elder on 10/14/13


I'm not sure where this is going. I posted some scientistic facts concerning things related to fermentation. So this IDEA was not mine. I've actually read several articles on this subject area and just posted you a snippit. So if you feel your bullying a stupid woman's comment think again. I just happen to BELIEVE it.

We also know there were coffee beans too before the flood, but the actual making of coffee beans into a drink was not an every morning experience until ....well, you look up the history of coffee.

Or look up the history of rubber tires. Rubber was available, but was Goodyear the chariots wheel of choice?
---kathr4453 on 10/14/13


Now back to the scientific article. We know today yeast rises best when the barometric pressure is low. We know that barometric pressure and atmospheric pressure, although not exactly the same work together. And before commenting, YOU need to know enough about science in this area to make an intelligent statement. We see the atmospheric pressure was HIGHER. Extremely HIGHER before the flood than after. So with that, any elementary student may ask, how easy was it for yeast to rise. NATURAL yeast, not fast rising we make today because even today in certain areas of this world there is a problem.

I'll bet, according to this snippit, fermented wine or yeast did not just happen, like it did when Noah was caught off guard AFTER the flood.
---kathr4453 on 10/14/13


BTW, no one can prove that leavened bread was NOT made before the flood either, so you can just as well claim it was leavened.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/13/13


\\ We know for a fact, no one can prove leavened bread was made before the flood. So more than likely they ate unleavened bread. \\

Non sequituur.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/12/13




kathr4453:

You said: We know for a fact, no one can prove leavened bread was made before the flood. So more than likely they ate unleavened bread. We still do today.

We sometimes eat unleavened bread today, but that is a rare exception, as most bread is leavened. Just because there was no mention doesn't mean it wasn't there. You can't prove a negative from an absense of information.

If there was NO leaven bread, there was no yeast. This means God didn't create yeast until AFTER the flood. But the Bible doesn't say that either, so if you deny one because it isn't there, you must similarly deny the other - and reach a contradiction.

All we can say for sure is that the Bible doesn't say one way or other.
---StrongAxe on 10/13/13


Cluny that may be true. No one knows exactly when leavened bread was made. We know for a fact, no one can prove leavened bread was made before the flood. So more than likely they ate unleavened bread. We still do today.

We don't see the word WINE before the flood. Not even in describing those sinful evil activities that lead to the flood.
---kathr4453 on 10/12/13


How did natural conditions change during the Flood?
Due to the waters which were above the firmament that caused the greenhouse effect, atmospheric pressure was 1.14 atmospheres higher than it is today - more than twice as high! So before the Flood the alcoholic effect of dry wine may not have been any stronger than the effect of common milk fermentation products of today.
The collapse of the vapor canopy surrounding antediluvian Earth's atmosphere caused the reduction of atmospheric pressure (and the partial pressure of oxygen dropped as well) more than twice. That certainly had an effect on alcoholic metabolism. This is another indirect evidence of the Genesis record's credibility.
---kathr4453 on 10/12/13


\\We see no reference to fermented wine until Noah.\\

And this means what, exactly?

\\ After the flood, not only did life span shorten, the decaying process escalated. You don't read where anyone got drunk on wine before the Flood. Yet we know there was grapes.\\

Are you saying that the yeasts which ferment grape juice did not exist until after the Flood?

Or that grape juice would not ferment into wine until after the Flood, kathr?

If the sugar in grape juice would not become alcohol until after the flood, that means that bread didn't rise until then, either, as it's the same basic process.

Please explain.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/11/13


We see no reference to fermented wine until Noah. After the flood, not only did life span shorten, the decaying process escalated. You don't read where anyone got drunk on wine before the Flood. Yet we know there was grapes.

Fermentation is a DECAYING PROCESS. So to delay the decaying process there were several ways of preventing this. Anyone who really wants to now the truth can find this out. We know keeping things cold delay the fermentation process. They kept in caves and at the bottom of lakes and ponds SEALED in wineskins and pottery containing boiled down grapes was sealed and stored for YEARS.

NEW WINE is unfermented grape juice.
---kathr4453 on 10/11/13


jason9835:

You asked Warwick: Why would the symbol of Christs blood be fermented (decayed, spoiled, corrupted)?

EVERYTHING in this world is corrupted, by its very nature. Blood spoils. Flesh rots. Wine ferments. Bread gets moldy.

Grape juice ferments the moment it is made (barring extraordinary measures like freezing, pasteurization, irradiation, etc.) Nevertheless, Jesus chose wine as his symbol, knowing how wine forms (and, after all, having designed it to do so, because by him all things were made), so he clearly knew that he was using a corruptible substance, but used it anyway.

God's perfection is made perfect in our imperfection. It it doesn't bother God, it shouldn't bother us.
---StrongAxe on 9/28/13


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Jason the opposite of wine undergoing fermentation and becoming (decayed, spoiled, corrupted)?" as you say, fermentation is a process which preserves, and changes the grape juice. Vital at a time when refrigeration did not exist. Pulped grapes begin to ferment almost immediately, producing alcohol, via the wild yeasts upon their skins. Grape juice has a very high sugar content which means it should only be consumed in limited quantities. The fermentation process consumes most or all of the sugar but nonetheless wine should also only be consumed in moderation.
---Warwick on 9/28/13


Warwick, very good points you made, and the best one is,
"if you feel drinking wine is sin, don't do it"
That is really the point. Many here think it is a sin, and if they do, we should not try to convince them to drink. All we can do is give Scripture and they decide what is sin to them. We don't want anyone to go against their conscience.
---Mark_V. on 9/28/13


Samuel, read Titus 2:3 "Older women likewise are to be reverent .. not slanderers or slaves to much wine...." Titus does not forbid they drink wine but forbids enslavement to "much wine." Similarly elders and deacons may drink but not be drunkards. If you feel drinking any wine is a sin don't do it.

Revealingly no one has created a thread encouraging others to drink wine or any alcoholic drink. However we often have legalists insisting we not drink wine.

See Deuteronomy 14:26 "spend the money for whatever you desire, oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household"
---Warwick on 9/27/13


Jason, when I posted the same question to you the 4th time you had had plenty of time to answer. In fact you had continued to blog, even asking me a question, again ducking my question! Therefore my ducking comments were proper.

The salient point is the Bible calls excess the problem, condemning drunkenness but not drinking, as the Scriptures I posted show. For example Scripture says honey is good, but too much is bad. I asked you if this makes honey bad yes or no? But you ducked this also. An answer would be nice!

Scripture also strongly condemns gluttony. Does this make food bad, or only the misuse of it? Answer please.
---Warwick on 9/27/13


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Rom 12:3

For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Tts 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world

To be completely sober you cannot drink any alcohol.
---Samuelbb7 on 9/27/13


//This kind of logic is called eisegesis or reading into the Bible//

Funny because thats exactly what youre doing by assuming wine is always fermented when the word used refers to unfermented as well.

//Wine helps with heart disease, prevents cancer, thins your blood, and helps to manage cholesterol.
Wine also helps prevent diabetes, cataracts, and stroke//

Grape juice cant do the same? Oh I see it must be the alcohol, right?
---jason9835 on 9/27/13


// I have not falsely accused you// Warwick

You did, but Im over it.

//Your answer is assumption. This assumption is not Biblical//

No its not. Unfermented wine is part of the harvest, not fermented wine. Youre accusing me of exactly what youre doing. You assume wine in the bible always refers to intoxicated drink, which Ive proven to you does not. It can also include unfermented wine. So it seems your stance is unbiblical.

//Zechariah 10:7 "and their hearts will be glad as with wine." Do you really think grape juice improves our mental state? Wine does//
Nothing better than freshly squeezed grape juice (try it some time). There again youre assuming its fermented.
---jason9835 on 9/27/13


The bible refers to wine as both a curse and a blessing. How can that be? The bible does not contradict itself. That alone should tell you that there are two kinds of wine.
---jason9835 on 9/25/13

This kind of logic is called eisegesis or reading into the Bible.

Rather than accept the plain words of Scripture, you insert your desire to see something that is not there, two "kinds" of wine.

What is wrong with wine? We know the curse of drunkeness but why does the Bible call wine a blessing?

Paul told Timothy to drink wine for his digestion. Wine helps with heart disease, prevents cancer, thins your blood, and helps to manage cholesterol. Wine also helps prevent diabetes, cataracts, and stroke.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/27/13


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Jason, I asked the question many times and you didn't answer. I have not falsely accused you.

Your answer is assumption. You assume alcohol is a curse so when wine is called a blessing it must be grape juice and when a curse its alcoholic. This assumption is not Biblical.

Scripture does not talk of wine as a curse, the curse being partaking in excess,the same as food.

Consider:
Proverbs 24:13 says honey is good while 25:27 says too much is bad. So is honey good or bad?

Zechariah 10:7 "and their hearts will be glad as with wine." Do you really think grape juice improves our mental state? Wine does.
---Warwick on 9/27/13


//why should I answer you, pointing out your latest error, when you have refused to answer a question I put to you twice?// Warwick

Warwick, what error? Please explain. Also, I have not refused to answer your question because I answered it previously. Whenever you see the word wine, you can generally tell the meaning by the context. If the context is speaking of a blessing then it is referring to unfermented wine (i.e. part of the harvest), if its speaking of a curse, wrath, or judgment then its referring to fermented wine. Verses speaking of unfermented wine: Gen 27:28, Num 18:12, 13, Psa 104:14-15, Neh 10:37-39, Isa 65:8, and many others. Interesting that they offered fermented wine to Jesus on the cross and he refused it for vinegar.
---jason9835 on 9/26/13


Warwick, be careful not to accuse people of something theyre not guilty of. I did reply, but for some reason it didnt get posted. Ive answered your question now answer mine. Why do you assume that wine in the bible always refers to an intoxicated beverage? How does the fermentation process make grape juice better for you? Why would the symbol of Christs blood be fermented (decayed, spoiled, corrupted)?
---jason9835 on 9/26/13


rita, a glutton just gets fat but a drunk can ruin a family, drive a driver and generally show their intelligence.
---shira4368 on 9/26/13


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\\/OINOS is always fermented.//Cluny

Only in your world...
---jason9835 on 9/26/13\\

And in Greece.

BTW, Greece is a country on planet Earth, where I'm from (that is, the planet).

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/26/13


Jason, you continue your evasion refusing to answer a straight-forward question I have put to you. It should be simple for you to answer if you are correct but the lack of an answer speaks volumes. I think you were trying a little deceit, weren't you?

While you are at it please tell us what 1 Timothy ch.3 says in relation to Elders who must not be drunkards, and Deacons who must not be addicted to much wine. Does this mean they cannot drink any alcoholic beverages? yes or no and your reasoning please?
---Warwick on 9/26/13


//OINOS is always fermented.//Cluny

Only in your world...
---jason9835 on 9/26/13


\\Incorrect. In the OT, yayin means grape juice in any form, fermented or unfermented. Tirosh generally means unfermented wine (Youngs). In the NT, oinos is equivalent to yayin and Ive not heard of chymos,\\

OINOS is always fermented.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/25/13


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//Are there any references to such practices in ancient documents that can be presented to confirm this statement?// Cluny

The writings of Columella, Pliny, Virgil, Plutarch, et al speak of these methods.
---jason9835 on 9/25/13


I don't know the answer to the original question so won't even try to do so but regarding alcohol usage which we seem to have drifted over towards, the bible does not say we must not partake of it (though I personally do not). What it says is we must not be a drunkard BUT it also says we must not be a glutton so this obviously refers to OVERuse of these products not the USE of them.

Anyone with weight problems caused by overeating is as guilty as a drunkard. NB - I know that some weight problems are NOT caused by food intake - before you start shouting at me.
---Rita_H on 9/26/13


Shira, you continue to duck my question. I consider you evade answering the question as you cannot answer truthfully without undermining your anti-alcohol stance.

1 Timothy 3:8 "Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain." This tells us deacons must not be drunkards, but obviously can drink alcoholic beverages.

Timothy also tells us Elders must likewise not be drunkards. Therefore they also may drink alcohol.
---Warwick on 9/25/13


Jason, I love your answer. I even learned something from you post. I love learning history of biblical days. God bless
---shira4368 on 9/25/13


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Jason, why should I answer you, pointing out your latest error, when you have refused to answer a question I put to you twice?

Answer my question.
---Warwick on 9/25/13


//OT Hebrew and NT Greek have words to separate alcoholic wine from grape juice.In Greek the word 'oinos' is defined in Biblical dictionaries as the alcoholic product of grape fermentation while Chymos means grape juice// Warwick

Incorrect. In the OT, yayin means grape juice in any form, fermented or unfermented. Tirosh generally means unfermented wine (Youngs). In the NT, oinos is equivalent to yayin and Ive not heard of chymos, perhaps you mean gleukos? The bible refers to wine as both a curse and a blessing. How can that be? The bible does not contradict itself. That alone should tell you that there are two kinds of wine.
---jason9835 on 9/25/13


But then why let history and facts get in the way of wanting to drink alcohol. It is many people's favorite drug.
---Samuelbb7 on 9/24/13

It is not my desire to drink alcohol nor to encourage anyone to drink.

It is my desire to have Believers stop reading their own words into the Bible and to accept what the Bible actually says.

The Bible says Jesus drank wine and changed water into wine. Jesus was called a drunkard and a wine bibber. But, you would want me to believe that the wine Jesus drank was not really wine, but grape juice.

Are you saying the Bible made a mistake? Are you saying that we should not believe the Bible?
---Mark_Eaton on 9/25/13


\\lol I sort of doubt if you know what you are talking about.\\

I've spoken with more than one winemaker and vineyard keeper. How many have you spoken with to find out what happens to grape juice?

\\ I have also picked grapes from the vine. muscadines are plentiful here.\\

Are muscadines considered grapes? Learn something new.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/24/13


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Warwick:

You don't even need to rely on the yeasts that are on the skins of grapes. Even if they were totally scraped clean, the grapes would STILL ferment.

I've personally experienced leaving nothing more complicated than a glass of Kool-aid or soda out in the hot afternoon air, exposed to the air and the yeast that floats around in it, and tasted vinegar in it 24 hours later!

I can see that maybe not happening, it's much easier to believe that wine in Jesus's day was fermented, than that people there had central air conditioning and HEPA filters (which is about what you'd need to prevent it).
---StrongAxe on 9/24/13


Samuel said: "My Dad made his own wine. But you do not have to believe me. Go online and look up wine Making. Natural yeast does not give you wine. But vinegar. As one site says you must wash the grapes carefully."

Grapes have wild yeasts on the outside of their skins. If you crush a grape, the yeast goes to work and begins to ferment the juice. The product of fermentation of sugar is alcohol, and not acetic acid.

Now, if you add more yeast to the alcohol and let it ferment, then you will get vinegar (acetic acid and water)
---Monk_Brendan on 9/24/13


OT Hebrew and NT Greek have words to separate alcoholic wine from grape juice. Numbers 6:3,4 says Nazirites must abstain from anything to do with grapes, even seeds! Therefore this cannot be used as an anti-wine pro-juice argument.

In Greek the word 'oinos' is defined in Biblical dictionaries as the alcoholic product of grape fermentation while Chymos means grape juice. The Holman Bible Dictionary "Scripture condemns drunkenness and overindulgence but pictured wine (therefore an alcoholic drink-my words) as part of the typical ancient meal." p1675
---Warwick on 9/25/13


Samuel, the yeast on the skin of grapes does produce alcoholic wine. The reason special yeasts are used is to gain a more consistent product as the wild yeasts give varying results. None the less squash some unwashed grapes and leave them sit and voila in due time you have alcoholic wine. If you use red grapes and leave the skins in the must you get red wine. If you remove the skins you get white wine. A friend makes a number of different wines including the beautifully named Merlot Blush by leaving the Merlot skins in the must for a very short time which leaves just a soft pink hue.
---Warwick on 9/24/13


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cluny, I have also bought frozen grape juice. does that count? lol I sort of doubt if you know what you are talking about. I have also picked grapes from the vine. muscadines are plentiful here.
---shira4368 on 9/24/13


Shira, again I ask you: considering your comments about what God says, and that I am not encouraging you to do anything, especially to excess, what does 1 Timothy 3:8 mean?
---Warwick on 9/24/13


Jason again I ask:Jason, where in the Bible does 'wine' refer to unfermented grape juice?
---Warwick on 9/24/13


My Dad made his own wine. But you do not have to believe me. Go online and look up wine Making. Natural yeast does not give you wine. But vinegar. As one site says you must wash the grapes carefully.

Now if you take fresh grape juice and heat it like the Jews used to do so as to make it last longer then it will not ferment. Wait a second today we call that pasteurization. They also put the pasteurized juice in new wine skins. Then sealed them. I have read that sometimes they even boiled them down to a jelly like substance. But then why let history and facts get in the way of wanting to drink alcohol. It is many people's favorite drug.
---Samuelbb7 on 9/24/13


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\\I have bought many bottles of grape juice and it does not ferment when kept cold.
---shira4368 on 9/23/13\\

That's because it was pasteurized and vacuum packed first--neither of which was practiced in ancient times.

Freshly crushed grape juice starts to ferment immediately. Pasteurization kills the yeast and merely drives off what alcohol was in it before.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/24/13


Wine is not a generic term - even from the beginning. People got drunk on wine in the earliest part of the bible and people get drunk today.
---Steveng on 9/23/13


I have bought many bottles of grape juice and it does not ferment when kept cold.
---shira4368 on 9/23/13


\\The fact is the word wine is a generic term and is used for both fermented and unfermented.\\

Can you give any examples, especially in the NT, where "wine" means unfermented grape juice?

When freshly picked grapes are crushed, fermentation starts immediately from the naturally occurring yeasts on the skins.

And as I've said elsewhere, I have no personal interest in this argument, as I don't drink anyway.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/23/13


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Wrong again. Jesus was contrasting himself with John who was a Nazarite.
---jason9835 on 9/22/13

Did you even read the Luke 7 passage?

Jesus said "The Son of Man has come eating and drinking". Drinking what? Fermented wine.

Jesus was saying John came and did not drink wine and you thought he was crazy and I come drinking wine and you call me a drunkard.

Perhaps you should also read Romans 14 and determine if you are the stronger believer or the weaker one. Jesus drinking fermented wine only strengthens my faith in His humanity.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/23/13


Jason, where in the Bible does 'wine' refer to unfermented grape juice?
---Warwick on 9/23/13


1 Tim 5:23 use a little wine because of your frequent illnesses.
Eccles 10:19 wine for weddings
Psalm 104:1,15 God made wine that makes glad the heart
Jesus passed the wine around at last supper
I think over doing (addiction)is the sin.
---laura on 9/22/13


//The biggest issue I have with people trying to convince us that Jesus did not drink fermented wine or changed water into fermented wine is a lack of respect for the clear words of the Bible// Mark Eaton

The biggest problem I have is when people make assumptions. The fact is the word wine is a generic term and is used for both fermented and unfermented. Its no different than the word Hell being used for Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus. Not all the same now are they?

//Luke 7:33-34. Jesus confesses that He drank fermented wine.//

Wrong again. Jesus was contrasting himself with John who was a Nazarite. Nazarites were forbidden from eating anything grape related [Num 6:3]. Jesus was not restricted by the Nazarites vow.
---jason9835 on 9/22/13


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Shira, considering your comments about what God says, and that I am not encouraging you to do anything, especially to excess, what does 1 Timothy 3:8 mean?
---Warwick on 9/22/13


//keeping grape juice cool does NOT stop it from fermenting necessarily// Cluny

It does, if you keep it below a certain temperature.
---jason9835 on 9/22/13


Stephen, you reinforce my stand on wine and strong drink. it doesn't matter what men say, it matter what God says.
---shira4368 on 9/22/13


Steveng, keeping grape juice cool does NOT stop it from fermenting necessarily.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/22/13


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The effects of wine:

"And he drank of the wine, and was drunken,.." Genesis 9:21

"Do not drink wine nor strong drink" Leviticus 10:9

"And Eli said unto her, How long wilt thou be drunken? put away thy wine from thee." 1 Samuel 1:14

"...Mark ye now when Amnon's heart is merry with wine,..." 2 Samuel 13:28

"...the heart of the king was merry with wine,..." Esther 1:10

They even had wine cellars underground that kept wines cool. 1 Chronicles 27:27
---Steveng on 9/22/13


In the ancient world people consumed wine because it could be kept without spoilage for extended periods, water supplies were not trustworthy. Children drank fresh milk from cows, goats or nursing mothers the problem was lack of refrigeration.
---Blogger9211 on 9/21/13


Well said Mark.

1 Timothy 3:8 "Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain." Timothy is not telling us that office holders cannot drink wine but that they must not be drunkards. This indicates there were Christian brothers present who drank to excess, but still Christian brothers, not consigned to hell for their excess as some here would consign them. If Christians then did not drink alcoholic wine (some of them to excess)then Timothy had no reason to write this.

If anyone feels they should not drink wine, eat meat, marry, or wear purple suede shoes then please refrain from doing so. But do not condemn those who do so.
---Warwick on 9/18/13


This is all information from the book "Wine in the Bible" from the SA theologian Samuele Bacchiocchi.

The biggest issue I have with people trying to convince us that Jesus did not drink fermented wine or changed water into fermented wine is a lack of respect for the clear words of the Bible.

Wine means fermented grape juice. If wine does not mean wine but actually means grape juice, what other words do not mean what we think they mean? How about grace, mercy, salvation, or sin? Do they mean something else?

Everyone, please read Luke 7:33-34. Jesus confesses that He drank fermented wine.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/18/13


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