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Will Israel Be Saved

Are some commentators correct when they say all Israel one day be saved? Give your answers with Scripture.

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 ---Mark_V. on 9/21/13
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//---Trav on 10/1/13//

Thanks trav.

One nation under God.

To Him be the Glory

Shalom :)
---char on 10/1/13


Hebraism: Eastern mind is 'event oriented' not 'time oriented' events are expressed 'in cycles' which is why it is defined with the same words for directions. The past is seen 'before' him [qedem] the future is behind his back [aharit].

Elohyim tells us of an end from the beginning- As He alone sees it [bereshyit]
and continues with A death that defeats and restores.

A wife who played the harlot is forsaken - forgiven.
Isa 54(all),Isa 61(all), Isa 62(all)

The Father chooses the bride for the son. The Bride is not the Groom or vice versa

Shalom
---char on 10/1/13


20:4
For the LORD your God is he that goeth with you, to fight for you against your enemies, to (save [Ysh a]) you.

*hiphil verb changes the action to a causative 'cause one to be rescued'
*hiphil partiple verb- changes action of the verb to active 'one causing another to be rescued'
---char on 10/1/13


I'll throw just a twig on the fire that you have burning rather nicely.

Psa_100:3 Know ye that the LORD he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves, we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.

Eze_34:6 My sheep wandered through all the mountains, upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, none did search or seek after them.

One will.
---Trav on 10/1/13


Do not take my word or any mans word. God alone can confirm - His Word.

Hebrew is concrete, the word image is abstract.
Elohyim gives us within His written Word the picture of His word.
The Hebrew word for image is defined as a shadow.
Shadow many times is translated as 'Lost' ...when something is 'Lost' it is in the shadow-obscure-hidden-not seen.

A shadow is a representation of an original substance.

In the beginning was the Word- all Worlds/ions/ages are framed by the Word.Jn1:1-15, Heb11:1-4

Elohyim is the beginning and end of (Heaven and earth-idiom for 'all things').
Elohyim - Exist 'I Am'.
---char on 10/1/13


//---Trav on 9/30/13// Blessing...

To Israel: Following Elohyims 'set of Instructions' [Torah] - His Word - Ysha.

"Blessed is the man you discipline, O LORD, the man you teach from your Torah" (Ps 94:12)
"My son, do not forget my teaching [Torah], but keep my commands in your heart". Prov 3:1

Verbal root YSh Ah (strgs#3467) rescue
Deut 20:4
For the LORD your God is he that goeth with you, to fight for you against your enemies, to (save [Ysh a]) you.

*hiphil verb changes the action to a causative 'cause one to be rescued'
*hiphil partiple verb- changes action of the verb to active 'one causing another to be rescued'
Another form of this verb [moshiah]a rescuer,translated Savior.
---char on 10/1/13




Mk12:28-33[...]"Of all the commandments, which is the most important?" [...]answered Yeshua, "is this:

'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.

Love the Lord you God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'

The second is this:

'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these." "Well said teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."
---char on 10/1/13


Hi Trav,
Back to the cup of thoughts under the camp fire,
I love the testimony Elohyim has given ...

thanks for sharinng a cup - sip,sip...

Shalom
---char on 9/30/13

Good steak mmmm.
Psa 19:7 law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
Psa 19:8 statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
Heb_8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their mind, write them in their hearts: I will be to them a God, they shall be to me a people:
Selah...Blessings requested on you and yours.
---Trav on 9/30/13


His Word never goes against - Himself

John 6 (all)
44 "No man can come to Me, except the Father Which hath sent Me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

45 "It is written in the prophets, "And they shall be all taught of God." Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto Me."

47 "Verily, verily, I say unto you,

He that believeth on Me hath everlasting life."

48 "I am that bread of life."

49 "Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead."

50 "This is the bread which

cometh down from heaven,

that a man may eat thereof, and not die."
continued'
---char on 9/30/13


Hi Trav,
Back to the cup of thoughts under the camp fire,
I love the testimony Elohyim has given not only with is written Word but also how the
"Heavens declare the Glory of God in representation Ps 19.

Seeing each tribe had their 'standard' 'ensign' Num2:2

Israel: God chose as His Witness --- as testimony Elohyim Exist --- "I am" Isa 44(all)
Is 43(all)10-12[...] I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.

Blessing brother,thanks for sharinng a cup - sip,sip...

Shalom
---char on 9/30/13


//---Nana on 9/30/13//
Matt23(all) love this.
37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"
38 "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate."
Matt 24:15. abomination of desolation
39 "For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord."
Ysha: Word of God (Jn1:1-14)as written by prophets testified/confirmed 'Son of God'.

Ysha: YHVH Savior
mashiach: Word of Elohyim confirmed/tesitfied
Immanuel: God with us
Shalom Gramps :)
---char on 9/30/13




---Trav on 9/27/13
cup of thoughts...
Israel: Turn the Head Split 2 Kingdoms -N.(Israel) and S.(Judah)
Abraham: Father of many nations
* Ishmael by Egyptian-Hagar,(Arab Nations) Gen16:10
*Isaac by Sarah, Fathered(Twins) Esau and Jacob
*six others by Keturah (Gen25:1-2...(Gen25:16)
-Jacob: (Israel)
12Patriarchs (12fathers)of Israel.....

sip...
---char on 9/29/13

Mmmm. A rich cup. It over floweth.... Exactly on Abraham father of many.
Ishmael today fulfilling as evidenced.

Gen_16:12 And he will be a wild man, his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him, and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.
---Trav on 9/30/13


doubletalk

: language that uses many words but has very little meaning

Full Definition of DOUBLE-TALK


1): language that appears to be earnest and meaningful but in fact is a mixture of sense and nonsense

2): inflated, involved, and often deliberately ambiguous language
---kathr4453 on 9/30/13


//call the Word a liar.- christan on 9/29/13//

Copy and paste it.

Where did anyone on this post (explicitly) type/call-"the Word a liar"?
We must take heed not to bare false witness.
Asking God for Mercy and Grace - I will discern, but leave your words for God to judge.
------

Hi kathr,

here is what I see, bare with me as I continue to learn, thanks.

'His Word' 'set asides' separating one from 'traditions of men'.
John 6 (all)[...]42 "And they said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that He saith, 'I came down from heaven?"[...]

Elohyim Exist (One-[ehhad])Dt6:4- His Word never goes against - Himself.
continued'
---char on 9/30/13


Continued' blessing-Kathr,
Jn6(all)
The Father 'draws near' Those He has been testifying of His Word spoken and written by He "witness" He chose - 'set aside' as Witness that He Exist God-'I AM'. Isa 44(all)
How? ...It is written in the prophets "And they shall be all taught of God." Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto Me. Jn6:45
63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

His Words are Spirit and life [Elohyim].Without His spoken/written word 'No man' would have His instructions/Torah -- only path that leads straight back to Him.

continued'
---char on 9/30/13


But a lost person will remain a lost person unless God the Spirit testifies to his heart that Jesus is Lord. And the Spirit does not do that to those who ask, He does it to those He wants to have mercy on. ---- ---Mark_V. on 9/29/13


MarkV you said it. Own it! The Holy Spirit is who testifies that Jesus died or our sin. that is the Gospel. Then we can all come BOLDLY to the throne of Grace NOW TODAY PERSONALLY, OPENED TO ALL once and for all to FIND MERCY.

Markv you are a master mind at double talk, but I can see through the double talk.
---kathr4453 on 9/30/13


The shepherd went looking for His lost sheep and finding them He said, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"
Even that they "would not", Jesus still told them which way to go that they be not lost: "Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also."
---Nana on 9/30/13


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Kathr, you always make up stuff,
"Markv seems to,think salvation is based solely upon one confessing Jesus as Lord." Never said such a thing. We are saved by God's grace through faith. We confess Christ as Lord because the Spirit has already testified to our spirit that Jesus is Lord. That happens when you are made alive together with Christ. Spiritually alive. Once you are alive to Christ, you believe in Him by faith. Faith that God has granted to you when He made you alive.
"For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in Him but also suffer for Him" (Phil. 1:29). Confessing Jesus is Lord, gives evidence you are saved by God drawing you to Himself.
---Mark_V. on 9/30/13


"But a lost person will remain a lost person.." MarkV

How right you are! And that's based on the Biblical account of the shepherd and the lost sheep. Funny how all these Arminians (freewillers) have no idea that it's the shepherd that went to look for His lost sheep and not the other way round, which happens to be the Arminian theology.

Obviously, Arminian theology goes against the grain of biblical teachings. Another classic example is they tell you it's up to you to choose Christ. But Christ explicitly declared, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

Yet they still argue and call the Word a liar.
---christan on 9/29/13


Thanks char, now you see how words never said, we are accused of saying anyway.

Markv seems to,think salvation is based solely upon one confessing Jesus as Lord. Yet I see salvation is based upon one believing Jesus died and rose again for our sin. Romans 10:9-10.

No one has to change before they are saved in order to be saved either. So of coarse I don't need to change myself first or even last. I put my faith in Jesus Christ TO change me.

But again, Markv or Christian do not understand the difference between justification and sanctification. No truly rooted RCC does.
---kathr4453 on 9/29/13


Thanks Kathr, I also don't see you claiming to believe that the lost can change his own nature all by himself by making choices.
Shalom
-----
Elohyim is (One-[ehhad])Deut6:4
God of order- He established His Order of arrangement-from within Him [bereshyit].
Without His Word sent -First- there would be nothing for Elohyim to confirm/testify of.Jn1:1
Ysha mashiach - the very act of Elohyim -who is Spirit (Jn4, Jn1:1-14) -testifying/confirming - His Word.
He sent His Word - He testifies/confirms of - His Word.
Isa44(all)
7 "And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for Me, since I appointed the ancient People: and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them
---char on 9/29/13


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---Trav on 9/27/13
cup of thoughts...

Israel: Turn the Head Split 2 Kingdoms -N.(Israel) and S.(Judah)
Abraham: Father of many nations
* Ishmael by Egyptian-Hagar,(Arab Nations) Gen16:10
*Isaac by Sarah, Fathered(Twins) Esau and Jacob
*six others by Keturah (Gen25:1-2)
-Esau married strange wive including (Kenite-descendence of Cain)
populated Petra, Jerusalem, Russia
Gen36:8Thus dwelt Esau in mount Seir: Esau is Edom)
12 Nations with 12 Princes, from Ishmael, Formed Arab nations(Gen25:16)
-Jacob: (Israel)
12Patriarchs (12fathers)of Israel (Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Dan, Naphali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph, Benjamin). Mary,the descendent of two of these Patriarchs (Judah/Levi)

sip...
---char on 9/29/13


Trav,
Romans 9:9 - The context is incomplete without verses 6-8.

But are ALL of Israel saved? According to Scriptures, I think not.
So much for your theory, go figure.
---christan on 9/28/13

Multiples scriptural witnesses eat any theory/logic doctrine of man.....they melt easily.
6-8? The context of Romans is Israel. All of. Married and Divorced. Widowed and engaged for remarriage.
Rom 9:4.... Israelites, to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises,

Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, .....Amen.

Act_13:24 .....the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.
---Trav on 9/29/13


Kathr, you believe that lost man can change his own nature, all by himself by making choices. But a lost person will remain a lost person unless God the Spirit testifies to his heart that Jesus is Lord. And the Spirit does not do that to those who ask, He does it to those He wants to have mercy on. The rest remain condemned already. You don't understand because you do not belief.
"There is none who understand.
There is none who seeks after God"
(Rom. 3:11). And you do not believe the word of God. Why? Because you have no understanding of the Word. You are of the flesh of Abraham, not of the Spirit.
---Mark_V. on 9/29/13


Trav,

Romans 9:9 - The context is incomplete without verses 6-8.

Psalm 105:42, Acts 26:7 & Galatians 3:18 - Abraham was the father of faith (Romans 3,4 confirms). The promise of God was not to the flesh but to those of faith like Abraham. Not everyone in Israel is of faith. "For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith, as it is written, The just shall live by faith." Romans 1:17, "unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." John 3:5

Act_13:23 - I don't deny that Christ was born a Jew for salvation is of the Jews. But are ALL of Israel saved? According to Scriptures, I think not. So much for your theory, go figure.
---christan on 9/28/13


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"Unless we are part of Israel we will not be saved." Samuelbb7

Really? Again, where's the Scripture that supports this highly devilish claim? Anyways, would you like to tell us how does a native, let's say, South American born and bred from Brazil change his race from a Brazilian to an Israelite? Or a Japanese or Korean or Spanish? How? So that they can be a "part of Israel"".

Where does it say so in the Scriptures that declares it's up to the man to change himself anyways? Don't you believe what's written?

"That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." Romans 9:8
---christan on 9/28/13


What spirit mark, the one you said died with Adams fall. We all know the gospel comes in the power of the Holy Spirit Markv, no one is arguing that. But you claim your dead spirit has to be made alive first SO THAT or can hear the Holy Spirit. THAT is not in scripture Markv. The Holy Spirit testifies to our CONSCIENCE. Our conscience never died at the fall. Scripture testifies..."they were convicted out of their own CONSCIENCE. ". Now you have been shown this numerous times, yet act as though you never hear it and still don't see it .

The GIFT is the Holy Spirit AFTER you believe.
---kathr4453 on 9/28/13


Kathr, you say I say,
"Just like telling people that they saved themselves if they believe FIRST before being given the Holy Spirit."
If you are a believer you should already know that it is The Holy Spirit who testifies to your spirit that Jesus is Lord. How can a person have faith in Christ if the Holy Spirit does not testify to his spirit? Without the Spirit you can have no faith in Jesus Christ. So how can in your lost condition believe in Christ by your own free will? Impossible. You are dead in trespasses and sins. While lost you are walking according to the course of this world, according to the prince and the power of the air (Satan) The spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience (Eph. 2:2).
---Mark_V. on 9/28/13


Sheep are always Israel in scripture." Trav

Where? Do show and tell.
---christan on 9/27/13

1Ki_22:17 And he said, I saw all Israel scattered upon the hills, as sheep that have not a shepherd:...
Jer_23:1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.
Jer_50:17 Israel is a scattered sheep,
Eze_34:6 My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them.
Eze_34:11 For thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.
---Trav on 9/28/13


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"Sheep are always Israel in scripture." Trav

... children of the promise are counted for the seed."
Romans 9:8 calls your bluff.
---christan on 9/27/13

See your call and raise with scripture going all in.

Rom_9:9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, Sara shall have a son.
Psa_105:42 For he remembered his holy promise, and Abraham his servant.
Act_13:23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:
Act_26:7 Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come.
Can you see it....."Twelve Tribes"...hope to come.
Gal_3:18 .....but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
---Trav on 9/28/13


Samuel, you said,
"The Church is Israel."

Can you post one passage where we are told that the Church of Christ is Israel? Then what are the new believers in Christ who are not from Israel? You suggest they are not part of the Church. Is there two kinds of groups going to heaven? Israel and the rest? Is Israel in the flesh also included in the Church? Many questions come to mind, but I will stop there.
---Mark_V. on 9/28/13


Samuel, you are wrong about Israel being the only one saved. Christ died for all mankind. if you know the new testament, you should know that.
---shira4368 on 9/27/13


The Church is Israel.


Hbr 8:8-10

For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Unless we are part of Israel we will not be saved.
---Samuelbb7 on 9/27/13


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"Sheep are always Israel in scripture." Trav

Where? Do show and tell. If all Israel were God's sheep, how do you explain the Israelites who condemned Christ (the very shepherd of His sheep) to death at Calvary? See the error in your understanding?

"That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." Romans 9:8 calls your bluff.

The "sheep" mentioned in the Bible is in context to God's people, His "elect", "which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb" Revelation 7:9
---christan on 9/27/13


2 Corinthians 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves, but our sufficiency is of God6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament, AKA NEW COVENANT not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. so if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance, which glory was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?


Michael_e, please re-read all of 2 Corinthians 3 Paul writes to gentiles. He quotes from Jeremiah re: the New Covenant to Gentiles.
---kathr4453 on 9/27/13


---michael_e on 9/27/13

NOTHING absolutely NOTHING is extended beyond any covenants Michael_e. WE are under the Abrahamic Covenant, which INCLUDES the New Covenant IN HIS BLOOD, and as Galatians so clearly states. God preached beforehand the GOSPEL to Abraham. Hebrews 12:23-25
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
---kathr4453 on 9/27/13


I don't see kathr saying this. kathr am I mistaken?

---char on 9/27/13
No char, I did not say that. I certainly am saved by the Grace of God. We are saved BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH.

But we all know how markv accuses people of saying things never said. It's how his mind works. Just like telling people that they saved themselves if they believe FIRST before being given the Holy Spirit.
---kathr4453 on 9/27/13


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"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." John 10:16

"That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." Romans 9:8
---christan on 9/24/13

But, sir you get frothy over what you know not.
Sheep are always Israel in scripture. Two different folds Judah,Benjamin and the Nth House composed of ten.

These are the "other" sheep addressed. "One fold" are the two reunited reference Heb 8:8/Jer 31:31/ Eze 37.

Child of Promise is Isaac....Ishmael the other.
---Trav on 9/27/13


//---Trav on 9/23/13
---michael_e on 9/24/13//
Would love to seat down with you both over coffee on this.
I'll keep reading.
Thanks.
---char on 9/26/13

You blessed me just by consideration and imagining such. What jumped in my mind was a campfire cup of coffee, something grilling on the fire. And a great visit blessed with you guys ....understanding/searching/comparing.... with no hurt feelings!
Needed that movie this morning in my head thanks and someday!

Zec_13:6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
---Trav on 9/27/13


Trav wants to change the definition of the word Gentile.
---Mark_V. on 9/24/13

I've seen another devious little wolfie in the pen.

Changing the definition? I pointed to the original language definition!!

I've patiently pointed out in scripture to you that Judah are sheep....The Nth House of ten divorced are "Lost Sheep".
You concoct/devise a lie where truth might be a blessing.

Anti-type this.
Isa_52:12 For ye shall not go out with haste, nor go by flight: for the LORD will go before you, and the God of Israel will be your rereward.

Psa_59:5 Thou therefore, O LORD God of hosts, the God of Israel, awake to visit all the heathen: be not merciful to any wicked transgressors. Selah.
---Trav on 9/27/13


//WE today are in the NEW Covenant// ??
Eph. 2:12 is very plain. Our Gentile forefathers were strangers from the covenants of Promise, without hope and without God in this world. But, now in Christ Jesus we are made nigh, not by covenants, but by the Blood of Christ. By the finished work of the Cross, we are now in a greater relationship than even the covenants, we are joint-heirs with Christ, Romans 8:14-17. The covenants were directed only to the nation of Israel.(Jere 31:31, Rom 9:4) In order for the covenants to be fulfilled, Christ had to accomplish the atonement, His sacrifice of Himself. But, by His Grace that was extended beyond the covenants, and opened salvation to the whole human race,
---michael_e on 9/27/13


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Kathr, I am sure glad you are done arguing. That is a relief. You say,
"MarkV, The Holy Spirit came with the NEW COVENANT that came into effect when Jesus died and rose from the dead." First, the Holy Spirit has always been here. Second, no one can have faith in Jesus Christ without the Spirit testifying to our spirit that Jesus is Lord. Third, the New T. reveals that the Spirit in the O.T. prophets gave them discernment and wisdom (1 Peter 1:11) we are told the Spirit was said to be in Daniel (Dan. 4:8:5:11-14) the Spirit was clearly said to be in Joshua and this is the reason for God choosing Him (Num. 27:18) the Spirit is said to be in John Baptist before Pentecost. I could go on but what for? You will not belief anyway.
---Mark_V. on 9/27/13


MarkV, The Holy Spirit came with the NEW COVENANT that came into effect when Jesus died and rose from the dead. WE today are in the NEW Covenant. The Spirit that cannot be take away, like in the OT like it was with Saul.

I'm done arguing with you MarkV. I don't believe in Covenant Calvinism PERIOD. And there is no such covenant as the Covenant of Grace YOU base your false teaching on.

The PROMISE of the SPIRIT did not come on or into the GENTILES until Jesus death and resurrection SO SAYS PAUL IN GALATIANS. Those in Hebrews 11 at the end state OT saints died without having received that PROMISE. And they without us could not be made PERFECT.

You just do not know what that all means. I'm sorry for you.


---kathr4453 on 9/27/13


//If you are not saved by the Grace of God, your lost. And since you do not believe that, you have no faith in the Grace of God.[...]---Mark_V. on 9/27/13//



I don't see kathr saying this. kathr am I mistaken?
---char on 9/27/13


Kathr, again rejected the Word of God presented to you. What your doing is contradicting the Word of God. All who are saved are saved by the Grace of God, through faith. Not by faith. That is the beginning of our salvation, our new creation of the Spirit while we were yet sinners dead in trespasses and sins. There was no free will involved, we were dead. What you keep mentioning is the indwelling of the Spirit. Which really began at Pentecost for ministry. Yet, there were some in the Old Test. indwelled by the Spirit. If you are not saved by the Grace of God, your lost. And since you do not believe that, you have no faith in the Grace of God.
Other people supporting your views does not suprise me at all.
---Mark_V. on 9/27/13


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MarkV you explained NOTHING. The CHURCH is what and who is seated WITH Christ NOW in Heavenly Places "IN CHRIST" called the CHURCH OF THE FIRST BORN. THAT began the Day Jesus rose from the dead. No such CHURCH existed in the OT, because the way into the Holy of Holies had not yet been opened. br>
MarkV, you have no foundational truths to build upon.

There was no "ONE NEW MAN IN CHRIST" in the OT who was neither Jew or Gentile. That mystery was kept SECRET and not even revealed in the OT. CHRIST IN YOU is that Mystery KEPT SECRET. If Christ was already IN THEM, there would be no SECRET about it.
---kathr4453 on 9/26/13


kathr,
Thank you for bringing up not only the death but the "Resurrection" -
1 Corinthians 15:26
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
Hebrews 2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same, that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil,

Thanks for sharing.

//---Trav on 9/23/13
---michael_e on 9/24/13//
Would love to seat down with you both over coffee on this.

I'll keep reading.
Thanks.
---char on 9/26/13


Kathr, you lack understanding. I'll explain.
"But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, ( "us' believers) even when we were dead in trespasses, (spiritually dead) made us alive together with Christ by grace you have been saved and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, ( raised us together)." God did the work through His Son Jesus Christ. It's all the work of God, you don't see this happening,
"for by grace you are saved through faith ( in Jesus death and resurrection) and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works, ( the work of God) lest anyone should boast" Your boasting on your free will.
---Mark_V. on 9/26/13


No! No one is saved by membership in a denomination. We WILL be saved individually, and only by the grace of Christ, and that ONLY after the judgment has been completed.





---jerry6593 on 9/26/13


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Markv, you continue to leave out Jesus death and resurrection as the ONLY way of salvation. WE enter a NEW and LIVING way! through the veil! that is to say his flesh. THIS is what Hebrews is all about? THEY, meaning OT saints could not be made PERFECT without us. read Hebrews 11 again. FAITH is stated how many times. Now, count how many times GRACE is uses along with it? ZIP. OUR salvation is COMPLETE. We are COMPLETE IN Him. Now you ARGUE this because you simply do not understand it. We have ETERNAL life because the RISEN Christ lives IN US, and WE IN HIM. We have so much MORE than those in the OT.

Calvinism has blinded your eyes to these foundational truths clearly stated in scripture.
---kathr4453 on 9/25/13


Shira, I said nothing about water baptism. I agree, water baptism never saved anyone. SPIRITUAL baptism does. Without spiritual baptism you are not saved.

Perter said the exact thing...where baptism now saves, NOT the washing away the sin of the flesh, but by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Even Peter testifies SPIRITUAL BAPTISM now saves. If you have never been baptized into His death, YOU are not raised up together with Him. If you are not raised up together WITH HIM a new creature YOU are not saved.
---kathr4453 on 9/25/13


kathr, baptism does not save anyone. we are saved by the grace of God thru faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. people were saved in the old testament because they believed in God. it was counted unto them as righteousness. water baptism is an outward testimony that we are saved.
---shira4368 on 9/25/13


GRACE Does not mean by God's good humor. We are justified BY JESUS blood! and SAVED BY JESUS life....His RISEN life. When we are raised up together with Him....by grace he have been saved. So GRACE, here is CHRIST IN you. It is also CHRIST in you all through out Galatians . The risen Christ was NOT "in" anyone in the OT. They were not made PERFECT by the blood of bulls and goats. The veil had not yet been rent signifying the way into the Holy of Holies had been opened to man. Christ entered FIRST through His own blood.
You are saying the blood of bulls and goats saved people. WRONG.

They were only temporarily COVERED until Jesus died! shed his blood and rose from the dead. They had the PROMISE of salvation in the OT.
---kathr4453 on 9/25/13


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Kathr, again you are wrong. All those who have been saved all through history are saved by the grace of God. No one is saved any other way. That is your problem. You deny salvation by grace.
"But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses made us alive together with Christ for by grace you have been saved, and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus," (Eph. 2:4-6) Read the word and maybe it will come to you in power and in the Holy Spirit.
---Mark_V. on 9/25/13


---people who are saved in the Old and New Testament are saved by the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ.

---Mark_V. on 9/25/13

To be a member of His body you must be baptized into His death and raised up with Him a New Creature. This was not available to OT Saints, as there was no death to be baptized into yet. WE today are sanctified through the BODY OF CHRIST. OT there was no BODY.

No scripture instructed OT saints to live by Galatians 2:20-21. So, OT saved Jews were in fact VOIDING GRACE while still keeping the Law. Right MarkV? Were OT Saints exempt from keeping the law while saved by Grace? So why the big stink in Galatians or even today MarkV. If it worked then, it must work now....LAW and Grace together.
---kathr4453 on 9/25/13


What is the difference in the standing of Church believers and Old Testament believers?

Old and New Testament believers are alike in one distinct way: they are saved on the principle of faith. Two major differences relate to our standing: (1) "in Christ" is exclusive to this Church dispensation and describes our standing which is unassailable and unchangeable, (2) "in whom also upon (not before)(not after) believing ye were sealed (mark of ownership) with that Holy Spirit of Promise" (Ephesians 1:13) shows our relationship to the Spirit. Romans 8:1-11 refers to the believer as "in the Spirit," in contrast to the unbeliever "in the flesh". This is not Old Testament language.
---kathr4453 on 9/25/13


MarkV your mistake is thinking that you somehow replaced Israel.
I am "suggesting" that during The earthly ministry of Christ there were two kinds of people, Jews and Gentiles.
Jesus ministered to primarily Jews.
At what point do you see Israel looking to go to heaven? They were and are plainly looking for a kingdom on earth.(Acts 1:6)
---michael_e on 9/25/13


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michael e, you are making a big mistake with the way you interpret passages. First, you suggest that there is two kinds of people, Jews, and Gentiles going into heaven, not the two becoming One as He said. Second, you suggest that there is another way into heaven outside of Christ Jesus. Jesus Himself said, He was the Way. He didn't say there was other ways into heaven. I believe your fault lies when you claim that the gospel was not taught to the Jews, because it was not complete until Jesus died. But for your information, people who are saved in the Old and New Testament are saved by the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ. In the Old they looked forward to the coming of Christ, in the New we look backward to the sacrifice He paid.
---Mark_V. on 9/25/13


MarkV The spiritual Church today is the body of Christ, composed of Jew and Gentile. It does not have twelve tribes.
When the Bible talks about twelve tribes, it isn't talking about the church of one body (Rom 12:5, Eph 4:4).
Israels Messiah chose twelve men to be minister with him: one for each tribe of the nation Israel (Mark 3:14).
He gave these twelve men instructions not to go to Gentiles, but only to the twelve tribes of Israel.(Matt 10:5-6)
He promised the twelve they would sit on twelve thrones: one throne for each tribe of Israel. (Matt 19:28)
Spiritual Israel has 12 tribes with 12 apostles.
The boC is one body with one apostle.
if you are saved today you are part of the boC.
---michael_e on 9/24/13


"Romans 9-11 has skeletons scattered all over it where people have ventured in and break their necks trying to figure out if the passage applies to the church." michael_e

"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth"

What's there to break your neck over Romans 9:11? It's so simple to understand without any interpretation.

Topic: God's election.
Reason for His election: NONE, aka unconditional.

The only thing that's scattered is your brains, and that's because you hate the very idea that God has chosen before He even created His elect.
---christan on 9/25/13


michael e, you should take your advice, you say,
"If Israel is the answer to any of these questions then the passage is not doctrinally applicable to the church today." The spiritual Church today is the same Church Christ introduced of which He is Head of. It consist of believing Jew's and non-Jews who together are "the people of God," "the elect of God," and "the Israel of God" (1 Peter 2:9,10: Colossians 3:11,12: Gal. 6:16). The "two" have become "one." and are "of the same body" (Eph. 2:14-16: 3:6)). Through the cross, the Messiah Himself has performed this Unity. What God has joined together, let no man separate.
---Mark_V. on 9/24/13


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Romans 9-11 has skeletons scattered all over it where people have ventured in and break their necks trying to figure out if the passage applies to the church.
Remember the context of the passage.
Who is speaking? (authorship)
To whom are they speaking? (audience)
What are they speaking about? (content)
If Israel is the answer to any of these questions then the passage is not doctrinally applicable to the church today.
The more verses next to each other with Israel as the context makes any single verse in the passage more likely to talk about Israel.
---michael_e on 9/24/13


Trav, spare us your concordance reference and translation or interpretation with regards to your idea that only the flesh and blood nation of Israel will be saved. You will find it hard to refute Christ spoken words,

"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." John 10:16

And even worse for your theory, Paul kicks it out into the oblivion declaring, "That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." Romans 9:8
---christan on 9/24/13


The first verse in 11.
Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.---Trav on 9/23/13

Paul clearly defines an Israelite all the way down to what earthly tribe he came from. If perhaps he left the last part off, one could redefine as only a spiritual entity. But that is not what Paul is stating in verse 1. Verse 1 begins with the Israelites, and the end of the chapter concludes God's promises to them, and how God will not nor cannot break his promises to Israel. We see those promises through out the OT.
Romans 9- Israel's past
Romans 10 - Israel's present
Romans 11- Israel's future

God has ALWAYS loved Jacob AKA ISRAEL.
---kathr4453 on 9/24/13


Bro. Christan, I agree with both of your answers. Trav wants to change the definition of the word Gentile. This way, no other Gentiles can be saved. But you are correct, "until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in" which means, until the complete number of elect Gentiles has come to salvation.
To Trav the sheep are not the believers, they are Jews, even the Gentiles are Jews. He believes Jesus only saves Jews. He is also including all Israel, even those who died without faith in Christ. Shear nonsense that anyone can enter heaven without Christ. What he forgets is that the Old Testament Israel was only the anti-type to the Type which is Christ. He fulfilled what the Israel of the flesh could never do.
---Mark_V. on 9/24/13


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Paul, who wrote and prophesied,
..... that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the "ethnos/Nations be come in.
And so all Israel shall be saved:
---christan on 9/21/13

If you check your concordance the word gentile was originally the word "ethnos". Given in context of the divorced Nth House. Now the following line fits...so all Israel will be saved.
Judah being the blind until the last "Lost Sheep" of the Nth House has heard.

You may be the fulness....who knows.

The first verse in 11.
Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
---Trav on 9/23/13


Brother MarkV, the Scriptures must always be read in the right context.

For example, in Romans 9, the apostle Paul was talking about God's sovereign election and that the "spiritual" Israel is whom God has planned to save from eternity. He referenced Israel, which happens to be Jacob (and whom God loved - meaning He only love His elect and not the world), whom God told to change his name to Israel as a representative of an elect, and not the flesh and blood Israel.

However in Romans 11:25,26 - the context is the nation Israel, where after the last Gentile is "called in", only the children of Israel will be saved there on, no more Gentiles (that's sobering). Does it mean every soul of the Jews? Only God knows.
---christan on 9/22/13


Bro. Christan, we will always be ok. It is her nature to do what she does.

Paul did state in (Rom. 11:25-12:13) those words. But Paul had already stated in (Rom. 9:6) "They are not all Israel who are of Israel".
Paul wrote, "Just as Abraham "believed God' and it was accounted to him for righteousness' Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham" (Gal. 3:6,7). So it seems that both passages contradict themselves, but Of course we know they don't. The big question is, "What about the promises God made to Israel in the Old Testament" The topic of Israel is very important and which Israel is Scripture talking about?
---Mark_V. on 9/22/13


" Romans 11:25,26.--Here, Paul declares with certainty that there will come a time in God's plan where there will be a last Gentile being called into God's kingdom that God will turn His mercy back unto the Israelites. Only God himself knows when, for He has already chosen His people for Himself.
---christan on 9/21/13


The only SNAKE HERE christan is you, a double minded snake. . I believe what you just stated and Markv has argued this over and over calling names and even started this blog question BECAUSE OF IT. Is it only TRUTH when YOU say it?

GROW UP CHRISTAN, and stop referring to others in third person with you insults who don't agree with you. Do you think that 's showing spiritual maturity? Just the opposite.
---kathr4453 on 9/22/13


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yes according to Romans 11 God is going to save all Israel, not because Christan said it or Markv disbelieves it,or commentators are right or wrong but because GOD said it.

If perhaps MARKV believed God to begin with, and threw away Commentaries and just read the Word of God he wouldn't be asking if COMMENTATORS are correct. He would ask WHAT DOES GOD SAY.

So it's actually NICE to see not all Calvinists are as misled as MarkV, and maybe MarkV will LISTEN TO CHRISTAN.

So is that causing disharmony? Or just seeing and stating the obvious. You two don't agree on this subject. PERIOD. But I know for a fact Christan that MarkV will never call you names over this subject . That's called a hypocrite. Worse than a snake.
---kathr4453 on 9/22/13


Cluny: "Elsewhere, he wrote of the "Israel of God," which clearly means the Church."

Please explain how you came to that conclusion?
---Steveng on 9/22/13


Brother MarkV, it seems that there's a snake here that's intent on bringing disharmony to the Truth of the Word by sowing the seeds of doubt and hate. Disregard their comments for what I have written is and never was meant to disagree with your blog question. You asked that the answers be that from the Scripture and that's precisely what I have given.

As James rightly admonished, "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you."

Peace be with you.
---christan on 9/22/13


Markv, seems as though Christan disagrees with you and Cluny. Now what. Seems as though Christan may be on to something of TRUTH here.
---kathr4453 on 9/21/13


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The trouble is that most evangelicals, especially dispensationalists, look upon that patch of real estate in the Middle East as having mystical powers to bestow salvation upon those who merely live there and call themselves "Jews," though if they lived anywhere else, they would be considered lost.

Galatians 4, if read carefully, destroys that nonsense.

A book by a Christian Palestinian, BLOOD BROTHERS, describes how Zionist settlers stole their homes and bombed their village before their eyes on Christmas Day.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/21/13


The one main commentator would be Paul, who wrote and prophesied, "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits, that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob" Romans 11:25,26

Here, Paul declares with certainty that there will come a time in God's plan where there will be a last Gentile being called into God's kingdom that God will turn His mercy back unto the Israelites. Only God himself knows when, for He has already chosen His people for Himself.
---christan on 9/21/13


Cluny, great points you made. All very true concerning the Israel of God and that not all Israel is Israel. Are we to believe that the Israel from the past who died in their sins will be saved? Or the Israel of now? Or which Israel will be saved? Is any perticular tribe going to be saved? Keep it going.
---Mark_V. on 9/21/13


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