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History And Science

I think this question will cause lively (please, not acrimonious!) debate.

In your view (either opinion or as an article of faith), did the writers of the Bible intend to write history and science as we understand those disciplines today?

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 ---Cluny on 9/30/13
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C'mon nursie don't be shy and give an answer:


NurseRobert, if the expert medical diagnosis was that your wife/sister/daughter/best friend would die if the pregnancy was not terminated what would you like to happen?
---Warwick on 10/18/13


If you are not pro-life then you are pro-abortion.
---Jed on 10/18/13


Thank you Kathr.

Dear Cluny

You believe we are wrong in our theology. I believe you are wrong. But I have never displayed hatred or taken a point and pressed it to an extreme to attack you.

Rom 11:20 -23
Well, because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity, but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
---Samulbb7 on 10/18/13


\\If I were to use your twisted logic, I would accuse you of being a Nazi or a Muslim because of your antipathy toward Jews.\\

Please show ANY of the words I've posted here where I've shown antipathy towards Jews.

If you cannot do that, then retract your slander.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/18/13


If I were to use your twisted logic, I would accuse you of being a Nazi or a Muslim because of your antipathy toward Jews.



---jerry6593 on 10/18/13

EXCELLENT POINT!
---kathr4453 on 10/18/13




\\and then proceeds to acrimoniously attack a blogger\\

I have never attacked you personally, but you have made several personal acrimonious attacks against ME on this blog alone.

That's ok. You just increase my heavenly treasure.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/18/13


Cluny: What kind of person begins a blog with:

"I think this question will cause lively (please, not acrimonious!) debate.",

and then proceeds to acrimoniously attack a blogger - not on his response to the blog question - but on the basis of association with a denomination, and the beliefs of a minority within it? Worse yet, you inspire the less cerebral among us to join in your acts of religious bigotry, and march in lock-step with the Accuser of the Brethren.

The character you display is not that of a Christian. It is at least dishonest and is hypocritical at best.

If I were to use your twisted logic, I would accuse you of being a Nazi or a Muslim because of your antipathy toward Jews.

---jerry6593 on 10/18/13


\\severe congenital defects"\\

In other words, the SDA supports killing imperfect babies in utero.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/17/13


NurseRobert, if the expert medical diagnosis was that your wife/sister/daughter/best friend would die if the pregnancy was not terminated what would you like to happen?
---Warwick on 10/17/13


From the Office SDA site regarding abortion:

"Abortions for reasons of birth control, gender selection, or convenience are not condoned by the Church. Women, at times however, may face exceptional circumstances that present serious moral or medical dilemmas, such as significant threats to the pregnant woman's life, serious jeopardy to her health, severe congenital defects"

"The final decision whether to terminate the pregnancy or not should be made by the pregnant woman after appropriate consultation."

Abortions are also performed at SDA hospitals.
---NurseRobert on 10/17/13




I don't know anything about the SDA's stand, however I never heard "Jerry" say he is for abortions unless the mother is in danger.

Marky, your spouting off here still proves only contaminated water is flowing from your innerds.
---kathr4453 on 10/17/13


NO scripture states I'm suppose to believe in double predestination to be saved. No scripture states I must believe in NO FREE WILL in order to be saved.

Scripture does however state Romans 10:9-10

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation..


Jesus Christ IS LORD and God raised Him from the dead through the Blood of the everlasting Covenant. AND in that covenant there is no such thing as Double predestination!
---kathr4453 on 10/17/13


Recognizing the Law of the land and seeing how we should respond to those who are sinners is not being pro choice. It is recognizing that in this life we must love all people. Just as JESUS loves everyone.
---Samuelbb7 on 10/17/13


Mark, you claim Jerry personally supports abortion, where has he said he this?

If you cannot show where he has said this you must seek his forgiveness as this is defamation, if not true.

I have made my opposition to abortion clear, and have attended anti-abortion rallies.
---Warwick on 10/17/13


As a pro-lifer, I could never be a member of a church that takes a pro-choice stand on abortion. Even if my own church adopted a pro-choice stand on abortion then I would immediately withdraw my membership and leave. Abortion is not one of those minor differences of beliefs that can be tollerated.

Kathr, you are incorrect about the SDA's stand on abortion.
---Jed on 10/17/13


Kathr, the message of the Cross is foolishness to you because you are perishing, "unless God changes your heart" but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
If you have ears to hear, hear this,
"For I am not ashame of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation "for everyone who believes," for the Jew first and also for the Gentile" (Rom. 1:16).
Did you hear that? For everyone who believes. You reject the Truth, so you do not believe.
---Mark_V. on 10/17/13


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Cluny, that is interesting, but the point is does Jerry promote abortion, or not?
---Warwick on 10/16/13


Warwick, I believe I have answered you very kindly all the time. I don't agree with some of your methods, but that is ok. Here you want me to apologize to Jerry. Jerry is an SDA. SDA's approve of abortion. Sucking the brains out of babies with a vacumm is abortion. That is why I made the statement. If you agree in abortion then speak up. You are not the Holy Spirit who convicts me of sin. God is. I speak for life, they speak for abortion. Before I posted I checked many websites. They promote abortion. The right to choose. What else is new, they promote the right to choose Christ are not with their own free will and also promote Saturday Sabbath or else you are breaking the law, I guess killing babies is not breaking the law.
---Mark_V. on 10/17/13


Well, if we didn't have DR.s which would probably come under science, both Mother and fetus would die. I think history can attest to that up until recent past history. So TODAY dr.s or rather scientists concerning our human anatomy can save lives, your teeth, even your leg or foot from gangrene through the scientific development of antibiotics.

My daughter has two sons, both c-section. Because of today's knowledge the all lived. She would have died in child birth if she were born before c- sections were practiced.

But unfortunately there are cases even c-sections can't save both lives. Yet rather than both dying, one life can be saved. The SDA believe the Mother makes that choice NOT the RCC or church.
---kathr4453 on 10/17/13


Jerry, I cannot be a spring of living water to you. Remember, "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are parishing" ---Mark_V. on 10/16/13


MarkV, what message of "THE CROSS" do you think you have? The reason no living water is flowing from you, is it's flowing out of your old sin man that was re-birthed, reincarnated. That's why foul smelling waters are flowing from your diseased innerds every time you post. It's becoming more and more foul and contaminated each day you post. But if you want LIVING WATERS to flow out, YOU must first be crucified with Christ so that the NEW MAN, the NEW CREATURE has Christ in Him who is that very water Himself. THAT is the message of the CROSS.
---kathr4453 on 10/17/13


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\\I have not researched the SDA's position on abortion\\

I have, Warwick. I have done direct cut and pastes from their sites on the subject.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/16/13


Jed, thank you for the clarification.

Mark, however has written "How can you really believe that sucking the brains out of an unborn baby with a vacuum while he is still in the mothers womb is the right thing to do?" I can't find where Jerry has said such a thing so unless Mark can show where Jerry has said this he must ask for Jerry's forgiveness for such a defamatory statement.
---Warwick on 10/16/13


Mark, your baseless comments regarding Jerry and abortion are disgraceful. I have searched but cannot find where Jerry has said anything like you claim.

Unless you want to be listed among the defamers I suggest you ask Jerry's forgiveness for this lie.
---Warwick on 10/16/13


Warwick, the policy you are talking about (allowing abortion only if it is necessary to save the mother's life) is the Orthodox's policy. Jerry was quoting from an orthodox website. The SDA policy is that the decision to abort the pregnancy is up to the mother as she sees fit.
---Jed on 10/16/13


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I have not researched the SDA's position on abortion but from what has been written here I cannot see that it promotes abortion. It appears that the mother will be chosen over the foetus if both cannot be saved. I believe this is a dilemma doctors of all beliefs face often where they have to choose which of two adults they can save with the resources they have. The same choice occurs with rescue groups who choose which person they will save as they cannot save all or both, with the resources they have.

It would be wonderful to live in a perfect world where such choices were not necessary. But we live in a fallen world, thanks initially to Adam.
---Warwick on 10/16/13


Jerry, I cannot be a spring of living water to you. Remember, "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are parishing" So you see it is impossible.
Second, you stand for pro-choice. You speak for it, and your denomination believes in it. What else is new?
---Mark_V. on 10/16/13


Markie: "Jerry, you are one twisted person. How can you really believe that sucking the brains out of an unborn baby with a vacuum while he is still in the mothers womb is the right thing to do?"

You are a disgusting little cesspool of religious bigotry, when, as a Christian, you should be a spring of living water.

Provide the quote where ever I said that I thought abortion was "the right thing to do". If you can't provide it, then apologize like a man, or be forever branded as Satan's little helper.




---jerry6593 on 10/16/13


Bro. Willie, I believe the Spirit will bring great conviction to every believer when it comes to the life of a child. If some don't get convicted, there is something really wrong with their salvation. We should feel a burden, and guilt, and need to speak up for the child. If we cannot do anything in person we can write our representatives. A baby is completely defenseless. Depending on others for life for food for everything.
---Mark_V. on 10/16/13


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C luny: SDA's do not murder babies.

Now you claim to base your objection to abortion on God's Commandment to not murder. But you and your pseudo-Orthodox church do not believe in the Ten Commandments. Now what? Want to try again?




---jerry6593 on 10/16/13


Jerry, you are one twisted person. How can you really believe that sucking the brains out of an unborn baby with a vacuum while he is still in the mothers womb is the right thing to do?
you try to judge Cluny with your twisted beliefs.
---Mark_V. on 10/15/13


Cluny, this world has a way of changing things . . . and not going by their own standards. For example, science is supposed to have a provable method, using experimentation, but evolution is not provable by repeatable experiments. So, ones claim to be scientific, yet do not go by their own standards.

And languages change . . . I dare consider in order to get away from what words in God's word mean, so people won't understand earlier translations and languages.

About "situational" abortion . . . if you think there should be no situational taking of life, through abortion, then also you "might" refuse to justify any act of war which can kill noncombatants who are not proven guilty.
---willie_c: on 10/14/13


\\Upon what do you base your objection to abortion?
\\

God said, "Do no murder," and the unborn child is a human being.

Now upon what does the SDA base its approval of murdering unborn children?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/14/13


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C luny: More lies!

Now focus...... Upon what do you base your objection to abortion?




---jerry6593 on 10/14/13


\\What you are doing is justifying abortion by way of situational ethics, as Cluny's group does.\\

But we don't. More slander from jerry.

\\ Cluny believes that salvation is by membership in a denomination. I hope you don't.\\

SDA requires those whom they baptize to confess that they are the "remnant church", a phrase NOWHERE used in the Bible.

What is that except saying that membership in the SDA saves?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/13/13


James: I see that you have decided to enter into the blog derailment with Cluny. I merely quoted his Orthodox website to illustrate his absurdity in falsely accusing an entire denomination based on the opinions of a few people. What you are doing is justifying abortion by way of situational ethics, as Cluny's group does. Cluny believes that salvation is by membership in a denomination. I hope you don't.

Perhaps you can answer the question that Cluny is unable to.

Upon what do you base your objection to abortion?




---jerry6593 on 10/13/13


jerry6593 on 10/10/13:
'"Abortions are accepted as a worst-case scenario when the pregnancy threatens the life of the mother and no other therapeutic options are available."

So it seems that you attend a church that promotes abortion.'

You did not actually understand what the thing you quote SAYS, Jerry

It is not well written, but it means: If the mother stays pregnant she and the baby will both die. If she has an abortion, only the baby will die. ONLY in that case can the abortion be carried out.

Of course it does not PROMOTE abortion. In only allows it if it is needed to save a life

Or do you want the mother to die too?
---James on 10/12/13


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The real question, jerry, is why are you a member of a pro-choice church?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/12/13


Cluny: Answer the questions!

Upon what do you base your objection to abortion?




---jerry6593 on 10/12/13


\\There are liberals in my church just as in yours.\\

What I quoted came from the official SDA website, just like my quotes from EGW come from the White Estate site.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/11/13


C luny: So you don't agree with the statement on abortion that an Orthodox website, by action of some committee, approved. Neither do I. There are liberals in my church just as in yours. Some, like you, even believe in lunacy of Theistic Evolution and man-made Global Warming, but not the vast majority of us.

Answer some questions for me. Why do you personally believe that abortion is wrong? Because it is murder? So what? Because it violates God's handwritten Law? You don't subscribe to God's Law. Because, like the atheist, your own emotions are your standard?




---jerry6593 on 10/11/13


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\\ It is the revealed word of GOD combined with History of HIS actions with His people.
---Samuelbb7 on 10/10/13\\

Well put, Samuel!

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/10/13


There is a HUGE difference between allowing abortion when it threatens the life of the mother (which usually means both the mother and the child will die anyways) and saying that abortion is a woman's choice and right.
---Jed on 10/10/13


You are right there Samuel. Fortunately the Bible is not like a science textbook, in fact it is way above any science textbook as God got it right the first time. Have a look at a 30 year old science textbook and you will see that so called facts are no longer considered to be fact.
---Warwick on 10/10/13


No some of the time for History and always no for Science. The Bible is not a science book. It is the revealed word of GOD combined with History of HIS actions with His people.
---Samuelbb7 on 10/10/13


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\\Clunity: You are a real piece of work.\\

Why thank you! That's the nicest thing anyone's ever said about me!

Quite right, jerry. I'm God's workmanship in Christ Jesus. Ephesians 2:10

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/10/13


First off, jerry, there is no "official Orthodox web site." There are only web sites of different jurisdictions, none of which speaks for the entire Orthodox church.

Abortion is still penanced by being deprived of Communion for a minimum of 10 years, according to the canon law of the Orthodox Church.

You may want to look up the subject on orthodoxwiki.

In any case, there is a big difference between calling abortion a "worst case scenario" like this UNofficial Orthodox site said, and saying it's the woman's choice, which is the pro-choice position of the SDA.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/10/13


Clunity: You are a real piece of work. You are derailing your own blog to take a side trip into abortion-land. How much digging did you have to do to dig up that trash? Do you really believe that you can be saved by bashing other denominations? Here's what I found on the official Orthodox website:

"Abortions are accepted as a worst-case scenario when the pregnancy threatens the life of the mother and no other therapeutic options are available."

So it seems that you attend a church that promotes abortion.

The real issue is this, both the SDA and Ortho websites are likely modern, committee-driven statements seeking to keep harmony in the ranks. This is not the original SDA position.


---jerry6593 on 10/10/13


Double doctorate molecular biologist Dr Michael Denton wrote the book "Evolution: A Theory in Crisis." In it he (an evolutionist) admitted evolution is a belief not proveable by empirical science. He later attested to this on the back cover of the book "Science VS Truth." "The book you are preparing, Cameron, I very much support. Living things are objects of indescribable complexity, and imagining how these things could have come about in terms of Darwinism, is very difficult. That concession should be there , but it isnt. Its a metaphysical thing not empirical by any means I'm a fellow traveler with you Cameron I wish you success." Dr Michael Denton.
---Warwick on 10/9/13


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Can someone tell me how this does NOT differ from the pro-choice position?

Glory to Jesus Christ!

---Cluny on 10/8/13


This IS the pro-choice position. It's a shame that any church would consider murdering an innocent baby as a viable alternative to pregnancy. This is no different than saying "The decision whether to kill his victim or not should be made by the rapist after appropriate consultation". Murder is murder no matter how small the victim is. A human life is a human life.
---Jed on 10/8/13


\\Abortion is one of the tragic dilemmas of human fallenness.\\

Abortion presents NO dilemma when one takes the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" as an absolute.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/8/13


\\We SDA's abhor abortion.\\

Here is a direct quote from the SDA guidelines on abortion.

**2) Abortion is one of the tragic dilemmas of human fallenness. The Church should offer gracious support to those who personally face the decision concerning an abortion. Attitudes of condemnation are inappropriate in those who have accepted the gospel. Christians are commissioned to become a loving, caring community of faith that assists those in crisis as alternatives are considered.

**The final decision whether to terminate the pregnancy or not should be made by the pregnant woman after appropriate consultation.**

Can someone tell me how this does NOT differ from the pro-choice position?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/8/13


Cluny: You're confused. It is your pseudo-Orthodox Catholic Church that invented abortions for the Nuns. We SDA's abhor abortion.

Glory to the REAL Jesus Christ!




---jerry6593 on 10/8/13


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Science is a discipline where measurements and observations are key. If I say that something is "green," then I mean that this thing absorbs all other visible light and only reflects light operating in the ~575-525 THz frequency, or with a wavelength of 520-570 nm. This is not only observable, but measurable, as well.

The writers of the Bible did not have the instruments to accurately measure or observe many phenomena, however, I do not believe that they were writing for science, but the history of God's people. As such, the Bible should not be used as a science textbook, nor as a history text, per se, but as a Book of the history of God working in the world for our salvation.
---Monk_Brendan on 10/7/13


\\Notice that cluny can only stoop to ad hominem attacks when I explained what "we" meant in his original misleading question.\\

But you did NOT explain what I meant by "we,' jerry. That's the whole point.

Of course, anyone who is a member of a supposed church that allows abortion can never be taken seriously.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/7/13


Notice that cluny can only stoop to ad hominem attacks when I explained what "we" meant in his original misleading question.

Glory to the REAL Jesus Christ!




---jerry6593 on 10/7/13


Cluny, evasive as usual. You just can't help yourself, can you. The word "science" is meaningless as different people define science very differently. If you are unwilling to explain what you mean by "science" then you are, as usual being duplicitous.
---Warwick on 10/7/13


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\\Cluny, for once stop being evasive and convert your trick question to a real question by defining what you mean by "science."\\

I will refer you to my previous post of 5 October. I don't see how my words are evasive, or my original post is a trick question, unless you are determined to misunderstand plain English. Warwick.

**The "we" my question refers to are the large number of average speakers of English--how we understand the subjects of science and history.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/5/13**
---Cluny on 10/6/13


Cluny, for once stop being evasive and convert your trick question to a real question by defining what you mean by "science." If you are not prepared to do that then we will know it is only a trick question.
---Warwick on 10/6/13


Notice that jerry can only stoop to ad hominem attacks when I explained what I meant by "we" in my original question.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/6/13


Wrong again, cluny!

You are among those who have been duped by the ivory tower atheist academics into believing that you are smarter than the God who inspired the Bible. You are not!

You will find that the majority of "WE" on this website disagree with your anti-biblical claims of Theistic Evolution, and your persistent belief that today's scientists are so much smarter that the men of Bible times. These men of old were concerned with TRUTH, a concept foreign to you and to many contemporary "scientists" and historical revisionists.




---jerry6593 on 10/6/13


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\\ I think that the "WE" that Cluny refers to are the atheist academics\\

Wrong again, jerry.

The "we" my question refers to are the large number of average speakers of English--how we understand the subjects of science and history.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/5/13


Jed: Well said! There is indeed no unanimity among scientists today. I think that the "WE" that Cluny refers to are the atheist academics who sit in their ivory towers, agreeing among themselves, mocking Christians, and never setting foot in the real world. He doesn't seem to realize that the great scientists throughout history were men of God who saw science as a revelation of the Creator's ingenuity.




---jerry6593 on 10/5/13


You say "as we understand these disciplines today". Well who is "we"? There is no clear consensus among "scientists" or "historians" on most subject matters today. Many of their "understandings" are politically driven. What may considered as scientific by one scientist will be rejected by another. Same with history. Many who call themselves "scientists" or "historians" today are actually politicians. Real scientists do unbiased studies and experimentation and base their conclusions on the outcome of those studies. What we have today on the left are folks who start out with a predetermined outcome, and look for the evidence that fits that narrative.
---Jed on 10/4/13


Cluny, as any good Bible student should know Jesus and the apostles always wrote about the OT as a sober historical account. Not good enough for you?

Your "science" question is a trick question as "science" has a number of definitions. For example are you talking of philosophical science as per long-ages/evolution (a belief) or do you mean operational science which requires testability, observability and repeatability? Unless you define what you mean by "science" the question is ambiguous.
---Warwick on 10/4/13


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Steveng: I believe that you are referring to this verse:

Job 38:31 Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?

I have read that it is the stars of Orion's belt that are drifting apart. The Pleiades are a group of barely visible stars which drift together as a unit relative to the other stars. Neither effect would have been discernible with the technology of biblical times.

Good point!




---jerry6593 on 10/4/13


//Please show the scriptures which justify your assertions. //

Joshua told the sun to stand still. Meaning for the sun to stop its tranverse of the sky not for the world to stop spinning.
---Scott1 on 10/4/13


Let's say you bought a certain car that you thought no one else has. You buy the car and as you're driving home notice many more cars of your make and model are on the road. This holds true when reading the bible.

As a kid, I had lots of time on my hands. I read the bible several times. Once as a history book, a science book, a spiritual book, lifestyle book, human relationship book, etc. When one reads the bible with a science mindset, for instance, one would definately pick out science facts. One would notice there are several place where it says the the earth is round. Then there is one about the stars of Plaides moving apart when in 1960s scientists found they were, in fact, drifting apart as the bible says.
---Steveng on 10/3/13


The Bible is basically a book dealing with spiritual matters. Where it deals with items of science, the Bible never ever been PROVEN to be wrong. The only thing that has been shown to be wrong is a person(s) misinterpretation of the Bible.
---wivv on 10/3/13


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Blogger: "The earth was flat and the center of the universe all of which we [sic] are false."

Please show the scriptures which justify your assertions. My Bible says:

Isa 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers, that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:




---jerry6593 on 10/2/13


Biblical writers wrote about science consistent with their understanding of science The earth was flat and the center of the universe all of which we are false.

With respect to history somethings are true some things are false the winner of wars write the history. The Hebrews used to inflate their military strength to ward off attacks from other tribes.
---Blogger9211 on 10/1/13


Yes indeed! Accurate history and true science are TRUTH, and the Bible record is a TRUE record. The only debate here is your ASSUMPTION of what is meant by "AS WE UNDERSTAND". Our understanding is anything but unanimous! Some people's understanding of science, for example, is mere unfounded speculation, as in the cases of Evolution and Man-Made Global Warming. Likewise political philosophies tend to cause historical revisionism. These modern errors did not exist in the minds of God's servants who "spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost". (2Pe 1:21)




---jerry6593 on 10/1/13


More the cause of history and science, I would say, Cluny.

"'In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.'" (Genesis 22:18)

So, this is one example > how the obedience of faithful Abraham has resulted in "all the nations of the earth" being "blessed". So, his obedience is the real reason, then, for how humans have been blessed. It is not really because of mothers, men, machines, medicine, materials, military, money . . .
---willie_c: on 10/1/13


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History - yes,
Point of writing a history book is to tell a story about something to make a point or impression for or against someone or something, that has not changed. The Bible shows the love of God on a fallen world, every story points to that message by giving examples of that grace working in the positive or not working in the negative. There is one big difference in the fact that because the main character is God you have the writers of the Bible (under HS influence) able and less likely to sugar coat or gloss over their own failures. For example Moses who wrote the first 5 books puts his failures in there because he is not the hero but God is. So in that sense the Bible might be more fair and balanced than any other history book.
---Scott1 on 10/1/13


I don't think the writers of the Scripture "intended" to write anything!!
This was/is God's work.
---Elder on 10/1/13


"It is the spirit that quickeneth, THE FLESH PROFITETH NOTHING: THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK UNTO YOU, THEY ARE SPIRIT, AND THEY ARE LIFE." John 6:63
---christan on 9/30/13


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