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Great Hate For Alcohol

There has been a great hate, it seems of alcohol, in this site it the last years years.

I do not like alcohol, but there are a number of verses in Scripture that seem to support drinking (John 2:10, where it seems Jesus made wine for people who were tipsy already, is one).

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Yet it is supposed to be good that a person uses drugs for recretion?
---Samuelbb7 on 10/23/13

You need to re-read my post. I never said anything about using drugs for recreation.

But for ANY use, drugs such as hyrdocodone cause a state of drunkeness that should be considered the same as alcohol. Therefore, if you avoid alcohol for religious reasons, you should also avoid drugs such as hydrocodone.
---Mark_Eaton on 10/23/13


Dear Mark Eaton

Isa 28:7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way, the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink, they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.

Eze 44:21 Neither shall any priest drink wine, when they enter into the inner court.

Apparently GOD considers that drugs can interfere with communication with HIM. JESUS refused a pain drug on the cross. Yet it is supposed to be good that a person uses drugs for recretion?
---Samuelbb7 on 10/23/13


I have never operated heavy machinery and have not driven in over 12 years.

I take Indocin for flareups of gout. One of its side effects is making me groggy. When it does so, I simply go to bed until the effect is over. (I'm old enough to get away with that.)

However, I don't take Indocin just for the buzz it gives me. That would be foolish.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/23/13


Taking a legal drug to stop pain is not the same as using a drug to make you feel better because you want to for recreation purposes.
---Samuelbb7 on 10/21/13

But, when taking these drugs are you permitted to operate heavy machinery?
Or asked a different way, are you so "drunk" on these drugs that you cannot drive a car?

These drugs even though used for pain relief, cause the same effect as drunkeness. And as I personally know, they do inhibit your ability to commune with God. They must be included whenever the Bible talks about drunkeness.
---Mark_Eaton on 10/23/13


\\I said that the abuse of something does not mean there is a proper use\\

Should be: **I said that the abuse of something does not mean there is NOT a proper use**

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/22/13




Mark, the decision whether someone should have a drink or not depends on the persons conscience. If someone believes in their heart that drinking a beer or a glass of wine is sin, they should not drink it. If someone feels drinking a beer or a glass of wine is not sin, then it is not sin to them. We cannot ignore the conscience, since the Spirit speaks to our conscience.
The same goes for food. We all know that too much of anything is bad for us. It seems that is not the problem. Wine is mentioned in the Bible so many times, never grape juice. Some people are legalist and everything is sin to them. Some people are not legalist but feel a drink of wine or a beer is sin. Let them follow their conscience.
---Mark_V. on 10/23/13


\\well cluny you are wrong again\\

I said that the abuse of something does not mean there is a proper use. And you say that is WRONG?

Again, you just simply prove my point: you cannot answer my arguments so you indulge in personal attacks.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/22/13


well cluny you are wrong again. some people need pain medicine and the reason a dr is held accountable if they prescribe too many yet they are used in hospitals and for home use especially after surgery. cluny you don't know what you are talking about, but you kick against the pricks. you think you are all that but let me say you ARE NOT.
---shira4368 on 10/22/13


\\what bothers me is when someone takes prescriptions to feel good because they do make one feel good. I am scared to take very often.\\

You're merely pointing out that with either pain killers or alcohol, there is the proper use of either on the one hand, and there is the abuse of either on the other hand.

Abuse does NOT mean the proper use is non-existent.

Glory to Jesus Christ.
---Cluny on 10/22/13


no one of God would get drunk, or indeed desire to do so! ---Carla on 10/22/13

So you are saying that Noah was not a man of God?! Wow! And David either!

I would really like to see some scriptural basis for this claim that no person of God would drink alcohol. Because most of God's people in the Bible drank wine. And we know with absolute certainty that Noah (The godliest man of his time) not only drank wine, but drank to the point of fallen down & passed out intoxication!
---Jed on 10/22/13




If we are to take from other scriptural sources to understand the righteous, we know sinners need the Law ( limits, rules) to keep them sober physically and spiritually, however, those who are saved have no need of it.

Therefore, drinking wine that is fermented would not make a shred of difference because no one of God would get drunk, or indeed desire to do so!

So let your own consciences clean up your own backyards and leave the Law to clean up the unsaved. If you cannot master wine and obedience your hardly going to be understood by those in whom you are trying to convince not to drink, therefore clean up one's own habits and allow the Grace of God to help other's who knowing and unknowingly stumble!
---Carla on 10/22/13


Samuel, like many others you have missed the point which is " Is using it, or abusing it the problem?" Remember drinking alcoholic drink is also legal.
---Warwick on 10/21/13


shira4368:

You said: to become a drunk you must first have one drink. just as our eyes see the things we shouldn't.

This is true. However, the fact that ALL drunks had a first drink, this does not in any way imply that all people who have a first drink become drunks - any more than the fact that ALL gluttons eat, but that doesn't mean that everyone who eats is a glutton.

Alcohol, just like food, and medicines, and everything else in life, can be abused, and those who are prone to abuse it should avoid it. But this doesn't mean that because some people are weak, everyone should avoid alcohol and food and medicine and everything else. Paul wrote about something similar with respect to meat sacrificed to idols.
---StrongAxe on 10/22/13


warwick, I had back surgery in 08 and I was given oxycodone. the dr gave me 10 and you can bet I used them after I got home. it is the worst pain I ever felt. what bothers me is when someone takes prescriptions to feel good because they do make one feel good. I am scared to take very often.
---shira4368 on 10/21/13


\\to become a drunk you must first have one drink.\\

WRONG AGAIN!

To become drunk, you must go BEYOND one drink, shira.

Or are you incapable of understanding this?

And there are "dry drunks"--alcoholics who never drink but still have the psychological problems that lead to alcoholism.

Some people are enslaved to alcohol, this is true. But you, shira, are enslaved to "thou shalt not drink."

Both are bondage.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/21/13


Shira, do you condemn donuts because the Bible speaks against gluttony? Drinking alcohol does make a person a drunkard any more that eating an occasional donut makes them a glutton. It's all about a lifestyle. Yes, if you are drunk all the time then I think we could consider you a drunkard, just as if you eat donuts for every meal we could consider you a glutton.

When I said classy, I wasn't talking about a television ad. I was talking about having a glass of wine with my wife at a special at-home dinner date. I'm sorry if you've never experienced that type of thing.
---Jed on 10/21/13


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Taking a legal drug to stop pain is not the same as using a drug to make you feel better because you want to for recreation purposes.

Nasserites did not drink wine are you saying it is wrong to follow that example.

I remember a young man who believed that JESUS would have smoked weed with people to fellowship with them. Calling JESSUS a winebibber was an insult. So are you saying JESUS deserved this insult?
---Samuelbb7 on 10/21/13


Shira, a friend recently had a major spinal operation and was in severe pain following it. She was given morphine for the severe pain. Morphine is a drug, an opioid, in the same group as heroin, opium, codeine, pethidine, oxycodone, buprenorphine and methadone. Did she become a drug abuser for using such a dangerous drug? Or would she become an abuser if she continued using it long after the medically prescribed period? Is using it, or abusing it the problem?

Good blog Grandma, well explained however it won't overcome blind prejudice.
---Warwick on 10/21/13


I appreciate your desire to be in obedience to the Lord, and respect that. Yes, to get drunk a person must take a first drink. To become a glutton a person must take a first bite of food. Jesus was accused of being drunk and a glutton, yet we know He was neither. That doesn't logically mean He did not drink wine or eat food.

Plus, as I said, wine has been a part of the Passover Seder since the beginning.

I believe we are to work out our salvation with the guidance and teaching of the Holy Spirit, who lives in all believers. God is perfectly capable of teaching each of His children the right and wrong of drinking any amount of alcohol. I prefer to let Him do His job without my interference.
---Grandma on 10/21/13


to become a drunk you must first have one drink. just as our eyes see the things we shouldn't.
---shira4368 on 10/21/13


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Isa 28:7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way, the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink, they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.

Eze 44:21 Neither shall any priest drink wine, when they enter into the inner court.

I believe in the Priesthood of all believers. I do not want to create problems or not be able to enter the presence of GOD because I cannot stay away from a legal drug that is only for numbing the mind.
---Samuelbb7 on 10/21/13


\\Some people drink alcohol in a classy manor like having a glass of wine with a meal on rare occasions, or drinking champaign with your spouse, or having a cold beer aftet a long day of working in the heat. \\

Jed, the words you're looking for are spelled "manner" (not "manor") and "champagne" (not "champaign").

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/20/13


jed did you say some drink in a classy way?? really?? some commercials use "class" in their ads. good looking guys, pretty women sipping drinks and the commercial uses that to sell their rot gut stuff. whatever you believe is ok with me. I have read some good blogs from you jed. we all have to work out our own salvation.
---shira4368 on 10/21/13


Shira, drinking alcohol does not make you a drunk. Some people drink alcohol in a classy manor like having a glass of wine with a meal on rare occasions, or drinking champaign with your spouse, or having a cold beer aftet a long day of working in the heat. A drunk is something totally different. A drunk is an addict. It is a lifestyle in which your world is negatively disrupted by an alcohol addiction.
---Jed on 10/20/13


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\\f you think Jesus drank strong drink, you assume he is a drunk. \\

Non sequituur. YOU are the one making that assumption, not I.

Taking a drink of alcoholic beverages is no more drunkenness in itself than merely eating a potato chip is gluttony in itself.

Besides, Jesus said that He DID drink wine. "The Son of man came eating and drinking, and you say, 'Look! A drunk and glutton!'"

Deal with it.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/20/13


Shira: I just want to educate you on alcohol and drunks.

Alcoholic beverages come in different strengths of alcohol content. Beer has the least. Then wine has a little more. There are a variety of liquors, which are stronger than wine, which will vary in alcohol content.

Most people, except gastric bypass patients, can drink two or three glasses of beer or wine, and not be legally drunk, especially if they are eating food at the same time.

Therefore, it is possible for a person to be a wine drinker and NOT be a drunk.

Also, I know a lot of Jewish people. Wine has always been a part of a Jewish Passover Seder.

A person, including Jesus, can drink wine, not be drunk, and therefore NOT sin.
---Grandma on 10/20/13


cluny, I don't eat pork or chicken or beef either. you still don't get it do you? if you think Jesus drank strong drink, you assume he is a drunk. that don't matter some think he was married to mary magnalean. (spelled wrong)
---shira4368 on 10/19/13


Shira:

1) Jesus did not sin.
2) Jesus ate and drank.
3) Therefore, drinking is not always a sin.

Drunkenness is always a sin, but many people have shown chapter and verse where wine or strong drink is demanded by God for offerings, or recommended as medicine for upset stomachs or depression.

You turn it around this way:
1) Jesus did not sin
2) Drinking is always a sin
3) Therefore, Jesus never drank.

Unfortunately, this relies on a false assumption 2) (as I and others have pointed out on here repeatedly).

Now, if you feel that, for you, drinking is a sin, then by all means, refrain from doing so. Nobody has the right to force you. But this doesn't mean it's necessarily wrong for everyone.
---StrongAxe on 10/19/13


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[cluny, I have heard the later kjv's are being changed. I got lots of bibles. I have one of the older ones that has not been changed. the bible is 12 grade readingi
---shira4368 on 10/19/13


shira, I've asked you several times which of the several recensions of the KJV you call "my KJV," and you never answer my question.

I've also pointed out some errors of translation in the KJV, and you say nothing.

Is this because answering me would force you to face issues you haven't thought about, or don't want to think about?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/19/13


cluny you read for yourself and I will read for myself. God warned about strong drink and wine. you are intelligent only to yourself.
---shira4368 on 10/19/13


\\I was just telling you Jesus did not drink strong drink.\\

Yes, He did.

And if you will search the Bible, you will see that there are rules for making drink offerings of wine and other strong beverages, which would not be there if God had forbidden their consumption.

After all, we don't see rules about pork offerings, do we?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/19/13


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I don't think anyone who disagrees with me wrong. I don't care if you are wrong or right, I was just telling you Jesus did not drink strong drink. I don't give a rats behind if you ever agree with me.
---shira4368 on 10/19/13


\\but you cluny don't feel good about anything. you must be a miserable human.\\

I was happy with Jesus decades before I was aware of your existence, shira, and I still am.

Do you think that everyone who disagrees with you is miserable? Or are you just projecting your own sadness onto others?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/18/13


cluny, me not drinking does not make me anything. if I were to drink I don't think I would feel well. but you cluny don't feel good about anything. you must be a miserable human.
---shira4368 on 10/18/13


If Jesus didn't want people to drink why did HE turn the water into wine? Please don't say it was grape juice. The Bible does not say that.
---KarenD on 10/18/13


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\\ I still can say Jesus did not drink strong drink.\\

Your saying it doesn't make it so. But say it all you like, if it makes you feel good. The spiritually mature know better.

And the word you're looking for is GLUTTON, not gluten.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/18/13


I still can say Jesus did not drink strong drink.
---shira4368 on 10/18/13

I would like to ask a question.

You seem to think our Heavenly Father and Jesus do not like wine or strong drink. You use many passages that speak against wine and strong drink to justify your opinion.

Yet, the Lord wanted strong wine given to the Him as a drink offering discussed in Numbers 28 and Leviticus 23. Why?

Surely if the Lord detested strong wine, He would not want it as an offering to Himself. Also, we see that the wine was not shared with the worshippers but was only consumed by (poured on) the Lord. And, the Lord was angry when the drink offering was poured out to idols - Jer. 7:18.
---Mark_Eaton on 10/18/13


strongax, a man come eating and a gluten and a friend of publicans and sinners. is the man Jesus. we know Jesus had no sin....no sin. I still can say Jesus did not drink strong drink.
---shira4368 on 10/18/13


shira4368:

Matthew 11:18-19 (also Luke 7:33-34):
"For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.
The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. ..."

John was accused of being a obsessed tea-totaller, while in contrast, Jesus was accused of being a drunkard. These are both exaggerations, but if Jesus never drank, surely his detractors would have known this, and mocked his abstinence (as they did with John), rather than accusing him of drunkenness.

If some verses in the Bible condemn alcohol, and a few others suggest it, this means that God SOMETIMES approves of it, rather than universally hating it.
---StrongAxe on 10/17/13


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\\my kjv tells me wine is a mocker and strong drink is raging. now you prove to me that Jesus done something the Father condemns.\\\

First off, you don't get that the Father condemns wine from this passage, because elsewhere, namely in the Psalms, He talks about "wine that maketh glad the heart of man."

I also noticed that you didn't quote the REST of the verse "those who are deceived thereby are not wise." Why? Believing that they are sinful in themselves is a deception.

And you've never explained just WHICH of the several recensions of the KJV you call "my KJV."

All you're doing is just projecting your own prejudices onto the Bible.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/17/13


cluny, you are the worst negative person I ever dealt withy. my kjv tells me wine is a mocker and strong drink is raging. now you prove to me that Jesus done something the Father condemns. I'm not going to look it up for you.
---shira4368 on 10/17/13


My hate of Alchol is that I see what all the mind numbing drugs do to humans. Alchol is just another drug like marijuana, herion, Meth and cocaine. But some just want the Bible to support it.

1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others, but let us watch and be sober.

1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

Tts 2:2,4,6
1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ,

1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant, because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
---Samuelbb7 on 10/17/13


\\Jesus did not drink strong drink.
---shira4368 on 10/17/13\\

Please give specific BCV that say this, and merely your projections onto the Bible.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/17/13


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In reality I do drink alcohol, mostly red wine. However I do not drink "strong drink" such as Scotch as I find the flavour unpleasant and the alcohol content too high.

I drink the odd beer in hot weather after a hard days physical effort, but red wine is my favourite, especially Australian Shiraz or the more flavoursome Durif. To sit with my wife out on our deck at night over an excellent meal with a glass or two of vintage Shiraz is a wonderful experience.
---Warwick on 10/16/13


cluny you aren't very smart. actually I don't care who drinks but we are to set an example. no matter what you say, Jesus did not drink strong drink.
---shira4368 on 10/17/13


shira, why does Warwick not drinking alcohol make you feel good? Even better, why should it?

As St. Paul said about such things, to his own Lord he stands or falls, and NOT to you.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/16/13


grandma, I was trying to be funny but guess it didn't go over that way. Karen, I sure didn't mean that I was being critical. sometimes I don't proof read but you can bet I will do it everytime now. sorry Karen.
---shira4368 on 10/16/13


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shira...You obviously did not realize that it was a joke. It was not making fun of your typo if that is what it was. Lighten up!
---KarenD on 10/16/13


cluny I glory in the cross
---shira4368 on 10/16/13


\\warwick, I'm glad you avoid strong drink. that just makes me feel so good.
---shira4368 on 10/14/13\\

So you're glorying in his flesh, shira?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/16/13


Shira: I did NOT see Karen's post as critical of your typo. I believe she was referring to the irony of the meaning of washing and current events in Washington, D.C.
---Grandma on 10/16/13


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thanks Karen for the "sweet" post. have you ever made a type-o? or are you perfect. most of the time I don't proof read and I know I should.
---shira4368 on 10/15/13


I found it amusing when shira posted "washing" instead of Washington. Washington could use some washing right about now. Personally, I think scripture is misquoted a lot when preachers say that it was not fermented wine that Jesus turned the water into. I see nothing wrong with drinking alcohol as long as it is does not lead to drunkeness.
---KarenD on 10/15/13


warwick, I'm glad you avoid strong drink. that just makes me feel so good.
---shira4368 on 10/14/13


\\How many signers of the Declaration were ministers?
Many were trained as ministers, but at the time of the signing of the Declaration, only a few were active in ministry. For example John Witherspoon was serving as a minister at that time, Robert Treat Paine served as a military chaplain during the Revolution, and Lyman Hall had served as a minister before the Revolution, //

This is a direct quote from David Barton of Wallbuilders, shira. And Lyman Hall was deposed from the ministry on morals charges and his own confession.

Where did you get the idea that many of the founding fathers were preachers, as you claimed?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/13/13


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cluny, I will tell you soon as I get my dvd by david barton. He has documents and letters in the library of congress. of course I can't remember all the things on the dvd. please forgive me I don't have a photographic mind. Im waiting on my dvd.
---shira4368 on 10/13/13


\\many of our founders were preachers and they had services in the capitol bldg.\\

Can you give any of their names, shira?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/13/13


I do not drink alcohol, not because I believe it's sin. Just for personal reasons.

I don't understand why some believers can't just leave what others choose to do between them and God.

Certain liberties are a matter for the Holy Spirit to either convict the believer of sin, or free to drink, eat, or whatever.
---Grandma on 10/13/13


Shira, I think it a given that God knew what He was doing when He created grapes with yeast upon the skin, the combination of which produces alcohol. I do not believe it was any surprise to Him

In the Scripture under discussion it is clear God was saying He definitely approved of wine, and even strong drink, but He does not approve of excess in anything. For example we should work for a living but God condemns those who work to excess, ignoring more important things-Mark 8:36. Medical experts are adamant that too much work is extremely unhealthy. And we know it is disastrous for personal marital relationships. Is work therefore wrong, or is excess the problem?

BTW I avoid strong drink.
---Warwick on 10/13/13


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my pastor has the dvd about God and scripture in Washington dc bldgs. I am getting it sunday and I will tell you what bldgs. as a matter of fact, many of our founders were preachers and they had services in the capitol bldg.
---shira4368 on 10/12/13


Yeah, Mark, I see that the "good" wine was saved until last . . . the master of the feast supposed . . . when it should have been given out while the people still would be sober enough to be able to tell the difference and appreciate the "good" wine. So, it is easy for me to consider that they were drinking what could get them under the influence.

But Paul does say, "All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any," in 1 Corinthians 6:12. So, ones can make a major issue of how alcohol can effect them . . . while they themselves are under the influence of fearing the alcohol, "or they can get drunk with worry and arguing and complaining."
---willie_c: on 10/12/13


\\there is one reference of God on the washing monument. on top of the washing monument\\

And this means that our nation was founded on the Word of God just how, shira?

BTW, "Laus Deo" is pretty generic when taken by itself. (I assume you mean WashingTON monument.)

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/12/13


shira4368:

Proverbs 31:6
"Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts."

From this, you can come to one of two conclusions:

1) God approves of this passage, hence, God approves of strong drink under at least certain limited circumstances

2) God does not approve of strong drink at all. Therefore, this passage is in error, in which case, you should rip Proverbs out of your bible right now - because the Church has been wrong to include it for thousands of years.

I know you will find either choice uncomfortable to accept, but you must accept one of them.
---StrongAxe on 10/12/13


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so warwick, you are saying that God approves of strong drink? that is very interesting. cluny, I am trying to find the video online that I need so I can tell you exactly the bldgs. in Washington d.c.. the guys name is david barton. there is one reference of God on the washing monument. on top of the washing monument. I'm still looking for what I need.
---shira4368 on 10/12/13


\\Shira's point is that the wine is not for you but to be given to the Levite as part of the tithe,\\

But that's not what the verse actually says.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/11/13


Shira, you have an amazing ability to avoid the obvious. No matter who the "wine or strong drink" is bought for it is approved by God for drinking.
---Warwick on 10/11/13


scott, you can have all the alcohol that I will never buy. I saved it just for you. by now I have a pretty heap of alcohol. I have shown you what God's Word says. I don't have to answer for anyone except me when I meet Jesus.
---shira4368 on 10/11/13


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Shira's point is that the wine is not for you but to be given to the Levite as part of the tithe, if you live far away from the local Levite as such the grain or whatever would spoil/hard to transport it can be transferred to coin or wine.

Psalms 104 v15 God creates "...wine to gladden the heart of man." So like many good things alcohol is great if respected.
---Scott1 on 10/11/13


Shira, "And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,"

What is the difference between this and the quote I gave except pointless archaic words?
---Warwick on 10/11/13


\\you are reading from the wrong bible.\\

It says the same thing in the KJV, shira.

In ANY translation, it still comes across, "It's party time in Palestine!"

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/11/13


warrick, Deuteronomy 14 does not read like you posted. please read the verses before and after. vs 27: And the levite that is within thy gates: thou shalt not forsake him: for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee. you are reading from the wrong bible.
---shira4368 on 10/11/13


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I just want to make it clear, this blog is not from me. Mark V.
---Mark_V. on 10/11/13


Mark, I believe the following quote shows God's attitude to wine, and even strong drink "Deuteronomy 14:26 "and spend the money for whatever you desire-oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household."
---Warwick on 10/11/13


Drinking is not per se a sin. The last drink I had was several years ago. I had a gin and tonic on my 60th birthday.

However, as alcohol will make my blood sugar go kerflooey, I abstain.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/11/13


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