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What Is Predestination

Since it's a Bible fact that God wants no one to perish, but for everyone to "come to" SALVATION in His Son Jesus Christ, what then is the Bible evidence of predestination? Also, what exactly is predestination?

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PREDESTINATION IS SALVATION IN JESUS CHRIST, to as many as "CHOOSE" to believe & receive Him as Savior & Lord.

Scripture shows, beginning in G3, God made a way of salvation for mankind by foretelling the historical events & actions of humanity throughout the ages. God gave us all the ability to "choose" right or wrong. This is a recurring Bible theme: do right according to God's word & be blessed (saved) ~ choose unwisely to do wrong apart from God's word & be damned as a consequence.

Omniscient God has always known who'll "choose" Him & who won't. But, after making the way of salvation for "whosoever", He won't interfere in our determining choices, good or bad.
---Leon on 11/1/13


Samuel, you say,
"Dear Markv why do you tell a lie to prove you are correct." I do not lie Samuel, I don't have to. Then say:
" The HOLY SPIRIT convicts us of sin and draws us to JESUS." That's exactly what I say. Without the Holy Spirit convicting you, you will never draw near to Christ. And if He doesn't convict? You remain lost. No matter how much free will you believe you have. Yes, many do not believe that it's God who initiates and finishes our salvation. Man in his lost condition will never seek after God. A person lost does not understand spiritual matters?
"But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him.." (1 Cor. 2:14).
---Mark_V. on 11/1/13


Dear Markv why do you tell a lie to prove you are correct. The HOLY SPIRIT convicts us of sin and draws us to JESUS. I do not really know many who actually believe what you say.

You are correct about Romans 3 that all are lost. GOD seeks us. The HOLY SPIRIT is sometimes referred to in Christian literature as the hound of heaven. While we may run from GOD He chases us and knocks on the door of our hearts.

The words you use about what GOD does portrays Him as a puppet master who causes sin. Your words make us sound like robots.
---Samuelbb7 on 10/31/13


PREDESTINATION IS SALVATION IN JESUS CHRIST, to as many as "CHOOSE" to believe & receive Him as Savior & Lord.

Scripture shows, beginning in G3, God made a way of salvation for mankind by foretelling the historical events & actions of humanity throughout the ages. God gave us all the ability to "choose" right or wrong. This is a recurring Bible theme: do right according to God's word & be blessed (saved) ~ choose unwisely to do wrong apart from God's word & be damned as a consequence.

Omniscient God has always known who'll "choose" Him & who won't. But, after making the way of salvation for "whosoever", He won't interfere in our determining choices, good or bad.
---Leon on 10/31/13


Also, what exactly is predestination?
---Leon on 10/21/13

Look up the promising words for ever and everlastinng. This is pre-destiny.

Gen_17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

2Sa_7:24 For thou hast confirmed to thyself thy people Israel to be a people unto thee for ever: and thou, LORD, art become their God.

Eze_37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
---Trav on 10/31/13




Thanks for the blessing Leon. I pray the Lord bless you too my brother.
---trey on 10/30/13


Well I have not gotten so angry that I condemn those who do not agree with me to unending torture. Nor do I believe that I have to right to judge those who call JESUS their savior.


1Pe 4:8

And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

But then you teach charity is in short supply by GOD. He only has a little bit. For just some who He has to force to believe. That GOD does not have the power to convict all of sin. That GOD cannot destroy the wicked.
---Samuelbb7 on 10/30/13


No problem Trey. Thank God for His convicting Holy Spirit!!! Otherwise, "WE'D ALL" be "predestined" to be lost, tormented souls in the devil's ungodly hell of demonic doctrinally delusional lies supported by the unfounded private interpretations (opinions) of religiously puffed up (proud) people.

I appreciate your Christ-like honesty (integrity). That's rarely seen on CN blogs.

Scripture clearly shows when "WE" mess up, it's best to quickly fess up (repent) & receive forgiveness! CHOOSING to do what's right is a major, recurring Bible theme, from Gen. - Rev., that "PREDETERMINES" one's heavenly END DESTINATION.

May God bless you daily brother. :)
---Leon on 10/30/13


Bro. Trey, It is futile to explain the doctrine of Predestination to someone who is an Arminian. Who believes in the free will of man. That everyone has a chance to be saved if they choose to. As you can see many get real angry when someone tells them that salvation is all of God. They insist God cannot force them, otherwise we are nothing but robots. When it's very clear what God says concerning those who are lost,
"There is none who understands, there is none who seeks after God" (Rom. 3:11). They find all kinds of excuses why they can choose Christ, or seek after God. Even when the passage says, there is none who understands. They suggest their free will causes them to understand spiritual matters.
---Mark_V. on 10/30/13


Leon, you are correct! The Spirit within me is convicting me. I apologize for my rude comment. Please forgive my mean spiritedness.

May the Lord bless you!
---trey on 10/29/13




"Sow a thought and you reap an action, sow an act and you reap a habit, sow a habit and you reap a character, sow a character and you reap a destiny." - Emerson, Ralph Waldo

Galatians 6:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 Be not deceived, God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption, but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
---Leon on 10/29/13


"Leon, the subject of predestination is for sheep, not lambs.[?] Since you already have an Arminian viewpoint [?] which is obvious based upon your belief that God has a desire to save everyone, implying that... salvation is up to us rather than [God], [explaining] the doctrine of predestination would be futile.[?]"
---trey on 10/21/13


Why so judgmental Trey? I believe the Bible, i.e., Jn. 3:14-21. All Scripture clearly shows God has made a way & apart from the Way of God there is no salvation! God wrote the script. We (the whosoever) must "choose" our destiny as it is written in Scripture. God has always known how we'll individually choose.
---Leon on 10/29/13


Samuel, if you just stop to think with an open mind you will know the truth.
God ordained the death of Jesus Christ His Son. It was going to happen at the exact time in Jesus ministry. At the same place where He died. All the events took place as God ordained them. Yet God did not make those people whipped Him and kill him. They were acting out of their sinful natures. For it is written:
"For truly against You holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatsoever You hand and Your purpose determined before to be done".
Those people did what God ordained before the foundation of the World.
---Mark_V. on 10/29/13


RichardC,
1 Sam 16:14 If the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul. This is simply stating that the Lord was no longer restraining the evil spirit from torturing Saul. God did not predestinate the evil spirit.

Judges 9:23 Again, the Lord simply is allowing the evil spirit to work between Abmelech and the men of Shechem. He is not predestinating it.

Gen 50:20 Joseph is simply stating that the Lord is able to bring good things out of the bad things that people do.
God did not predestinate them to sell their brother.

Gen 20:6 Here again, God did not predestinate Abimelech to take Sarah, but after he took her, the Lord withheld him from doing evil.

A child is abused this is not predestinated by a righteous God!
---trey on 10/28/13


Karthr - Ordain Plan from God -

John 19:10 - Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou unto to me? Knowest thou not that I have the power to crucify thee,and have power to release thee,
John 19:11 Jesus answered , Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above, therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin,

( Now with verse 19:11 - Does this not show that the father is control of this situation )
---RICHARDC on 10/28/13


Karthr - Was using that as God using sinful man for his purpose , No it wasn't murder - But the act had to take place - So that would have to be predestinated, Your right I should of use Sacrifice - I was just carrying over - wrongfully so,
---RICHARDC on 10/28/13


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christian,
I stand by my belief that God does not predestinate events or sin. God has knowledge of all that will take place. He has the ability to stop events or suffer sin to occur, but he does not predestinate sin.
Acts 4:28 is simply stating that God knew before hand and allowed the Romans and the Jews to crucify His Son inorder to save His people.

Concerning Adam's sin in the garden. If Adam was doing as God predestinated then why does Romans say:
Rom5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
---trey on 10/28/13


Good points Kathr. Calvinist says GOD causes everything but do not want HIM to cause everything. GOD calls on us to be merciful but according to them He is not merciful. GOD asks to be loving but according to them He is not loving. He hates many more people then He loves and want to torture those he hates for all eternity.

Then if you do not believe and accept these contradicts of Bible and reason you are lost for all eternity. Just like John Wesley.
---Samuelbb7 on 10/28/13


Richard, for GOD so LOVED the world HE gave. What did God Give? He gave His Son to die for our sin and Rise again for our justification. I only see one who is able to do that. Jesus said he GAVE his life.

To equate all murders with Jesus sacrifice , calling it ORDAINED and planned by God is blasphemy. No one else was MURDERED as you say for YOUR sin.

Before Paul's salvation, he MURDERED Christians. He didn't MURDER Christians after. WHY not?
---kathr4453 on 10/28/13


CHristan: The verse you quoted in Isaiah is not about God purposing evil. He warned Israel many times to repent or be punished, she heeded not, so He judged & punished them. You know God made man to be like Him on the earth(controlling) . So He blesses or punishes earthlings mostly using other men. Are you not among those accusing God of being pro-Isreal & anti-other nations? Now you have quoted a verse showing God punishing Isreal through another nation, you cannot accuse God & win.
---Adetunji on 10/28/13


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Karthr - He Cause a man to Murder ?

Luke 24:6 - He is not here , but is risen , remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,
Luke 24:7 - Saying the son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men and be crucified, and on the third day rise again,

( Now karthr : was not this predestinated to happen ? )
---RICHARDC on 10/28/13


He ordains things to happen but He is not the cause of them happening. ///


AGAIN WE HAVE A CONTRADICTION OF THOUGHT HERE.

First he says his salvation was ordained and caused by God for it to happen, but in another breath says God ordaining something doesn't mean God caused it.

So what is it MarkV....where is your scripture to back up your confusion?

Either God ordained ALL and makes ALL happen or He does not, showing he did not CAUSE you to believe anymore than He caused man to murder.
---kathr4453 on 10/28/13


"It is very clear to me that we are not serving the same God. Your "God" causes people to sin & condemns them also." Adentunji

Finally, you got it.

You keep saying "caused people to sin & condemns them". These words are from God in Isaiah "...the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass, I have purposed it, I will also do it."

You've been deluded into thinking that the god you worship is the God of the Bible. I've just demonstrated how wrong you are from the verse presented above. bla bla bla

---christan on 10/26/13
markv, christen disagrees with you. please explain
---kathr4453 on 10/28/13


Adetunji on 10/28/13

GOOD ADVICE.

Along this same note, we see in Romans 5 that from Adam until Moses sin was not IMPUTED to those who had sinned, because the Law had not come into effect. IF as MarkV says, God ordained horrible murders etc, then what difference does the Law make..thou shall not kill?

He's accusing God of asking us not to do something God has done, whereby God then is the perfect example of murder, rather than RIGHTEOUSNESS and Holiness.


The reason Cain was not killed for Killing is because their was no law saying thou shall not kill. NOW WE KNOW murder is against God.

Is markv nuts? Same with LOVE. God asks US to do something even He doesn't do??? WRONG!
---kathr4453 on 10/28/13


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Samuel, you say,
"You ask me these questions but you are the one who says he causes murders to murder because that is what ordaining them to come to pass means." I never said God causes murderers to murder. He ordains things to happen but He is not the cause of them happening. He knows what man will do if He withholds His restrain on them.
Then say, " He must enjoy it" He doesn't enjoy judging. They are judge by God because even though they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God are were ever thankful to God. Then say,
"I am just pointing out what you say you believe." I don't say I believe what you said. Never.
That is your opinion of Election, and foreordination.
---Mark_V. on 10/28/13


Samuel, Why won't you acknowledge that God who is infinite, ordained all that comes to past?
Who said He enjoys those who sin against Him everyday?" Since he designated some of his robots for hell." Who said He designed robots?
---Mark_V.
You ask me these questions but you are the one who says he causes murders to murder because that is what ordaining them to come to pass means. He must enjoy it since he according to you causes it and causes them to be tortured for what he made them do for all eternity. I am just pointing out what you say you believe.

I do not believe GOD is like that. I believe GOD is love and just. The wicked will be punished just as much as they deserve no more no less.
Luk 12:47, 48
---Samuelbb7 on 10/28/13


Mark_V: Since man ate the fruit of good & evil, s/he has obtained the prviledge to choose godliness & live(ungodliness & death). Do not mix the different time dispensations up. God is Perfect, He knows how He will judge those who lived before the Lord came in the flesh & those born after. There was a period that marriage between siblings was allowed, now it is not allowed. It is not healthy for you to worry yourself ~ how God judges. What is good for now is to be an obedient & submissive follower of Jesus Christ.Phil.2: 12-16,don't be an accuser of God.
---Adetunji on 10/28/13


"It is very clear to me that we are not serving the same God. Your "God" causes people to sin & condemns them also." Adentunji

Finally, you got it.

You keep saying "caused people to sin & condemns them". These words are from God in Isaiah "...the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass, I have purposed it, I will also do it."

You've been deluded into thinking that the god you worship is the God of the Bible. I've just demonstrated how wrong you are from the verse presented above. You continue to argue and reject what God has declared.

Time to dust my feet and move on...
---christan on 10/26/13


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Samuel, why do you say what you do about God? You say,
"I believe GOD knew about the fall because of His preknowledge." Why won't you acknowledge that God who is infinite, ordained all that comes to past? Why? And why do you say,
" Which is not the same as causing sin and wanting to set up a place of torture for all eternity for his enjoment." His enjoyment? Who said He enjoys those who sin against Him everyday? Where have you read such a thing? then say with no shame at all,
" Since he designated some of his robots for hell." Who said He designed robots? You don't understand God so you speak nonsense. Do you really believe murderers are robots when they kill?
---Mark_V. on 10/26/13


Tray 10/25 --- God does not predestinate events or Sin ????????

1 Samuel 16:14 - But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and a evil Spirit from the Lord Trouble him ,

Judges 9:23 - Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem: and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Ablimelech,

Genesis 50:20 - But as for you, ye thought evil against me : But God meant it unto good, to bring it to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive,

Genesis 20:6 - And God said unto him in a dream, Yea I know that thou didst this from the integrity of thy heart: for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: Therefore suffered I thee not to touch her,
---RICHARDC on 10/26/13


Adetunji, you answer with:
" Please tells us where you got the knowledge that God took the 1st born of Egypt to hell & not to paradise?!" Really speaking against "free will." So they went to heaven without faith in Christ? So they went to heaven without exercising their own free will you suggest people have? They did not have time to exercise anything. Some were even asleep.
Here is your free will, man exercising their own free will to accept Christ,
Maybe they are smarter then others who also had free will, Maybe wiser, holier. Maybe they were more brilliant, oh, how about, maybe they were more likeable then others.
---Mark_V. on 10/26/13


CHRISTAN: It is very clear to me that we are not serving the same God. Your "God" causes people to sin & condemns them also. Please amongst which group do you worship?
---Adetunji on 10/26/13


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It is a point in time, were you meet God. Now the big question is what do you do after that meeting will determine your life path. It is all designed according to his word. John chapter 1: verses 1,2,3,4. But the choice is yours, Jesus said, "Pick life", but some of us don't that's your choice not Gods'. The fact is his word will bring either one, life our death still your choose. That is the fact of Predestination. The word is the only thing that produces in your life. "LIFE or DEATH" Hebrews 4:12. be careful how you use it.
---Bryan on 10/26/13


"Predestination is not to be associated with events. Our God does not predestinate events or sin." trey

Half truth is NO truth. Read this,

"For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done." Acts 4:27,28 - doesn't this event of Christ's death at Calvary speaks of predestination? That God had purposed it from eternity?

So, your understanding of predestination is very flawed. It isn't absolute, just half-cooked. And half-cooked food can be poisonous and dangerous.
---christan on 10/25/13


Adentunji & Samuelbb7 - you both have a problem understanding English, let alone who God is. You accuse me of saying He "caused" Adam to sin.

Again, this is what He declares in the Bible, word for word, "the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass, I have purposed it, I will also do it." - the word is PURPOSED" which is much explicit than "caused".

If anyone's misunderstanding anything, it's surely you two. If you don't agree with my understanding, you are free to explain Isaiah 46:11 & 55:8. But I doubt you can, that's because it says what it says without interpretation needed.
---christan on 10/25/13


"If God made Adam to sin, why would HE judge & punish him thereafter" Adentunji

Paul's way ahead of you with your thought that was written some two thousand years ago. Eat your heart out, -

"What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?


Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"
Romans 9:14,19-21

Amazing right?
---christan on 10/25/13


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The Greek word "Proorizo" is translated "Predestination" 4 times in the new testament.

The word "Predestination" is alway associated with the elect family of God. When studied in biblical context we see that God predestinates his children to be adopted into his family and to obtain eternal salvation through the finished work of Jesus Christ. God predestinated their salvation before the foundation of the world.

Predestination is not to be associated with events. Our God does not predestinate events or sin.
Romans 8:29, & 30, Ephesians 1:5 & 11.
---trey on 10/25/13


Leon: I believe predestination is God's plan for living beings that HE had created (angelic, human, animal) . Since the 1st couple ate the fruit of good & evil, God's plan is no longer compulsory for man. Man from that point onwards can choose God's will & enjoy HIS benefits OR choose ungodliness & suffer the consequences.
---Adetunji on 10/25/13


Dear Christian you and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints have a point of agreement. GOD caused mankind to sin he started the fall of man.

I believe GOD knew about the fall because of His preknowledge. Which is not the same as causing sin and wanting to set up a place of torture for all eternity for his enjoment. Since he designated some of his robots for hell.
---Samuelbb7 on 10/25/13


Christan: You are very busy reading wrong meanings into God's word. I cannot understand how you read "God caused Adam to sin" into Isaiah 46:11 & 55:8. If God made Adam to sin, why would HE judge & punish him thereafter? Your are preaching lies & accussing God without much respect that He deserves. I guess you have bad Bible teachers.
---Adetunji on 10/25/13


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Adetunji,

First and foremost, God is not a man - get that through your head. He's an eternal Spirit and He declared, "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord." Isaiah 55:8

Your idea of a god is one that didn't plan for the fall of man and it caught him by surprise, that's your god not mine. The God I worship declared, "the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass, I have purposed it, I will also do it" Isaiah 46:11

If you can't believe He purposed the fall of man, that's your problem, not mine. Didn't He say so that He has purposed things that happened and that's to happen?
---christan on 10/25/13


Mark_V: // How about all the first born who were killed by the Angel of death? Where was their rights to resist or accept the Lord? // Please tells us where you got the knowledge that God took the 1st born of Egypt to hell & not to paradise?! They were taken away as a punishment to the living Egyptians then not for their own sins. EZ.18:5 all souls belong to God, MATT.20:15 Is it not lawful for God to do what HE wills with HIS own?
---Adetunji on 10/25/13


Psa117
O praise the LORD, all ye nations: praise him, all ye people. For his merciful kindness is great toward us: and the truth of the LORD endureth for ever. Praise ye the LORD.
Romans2,3

As a Seventh day Adventist I have been accused of teaching only we are saved. Some here made that accusation. But it turns out that they are guilty of the false accusation made against me. They make belief in Predestination the Gospel. Even though in all the places where the gospel was preached no one is told GOD forces you to believe on the LORD JESUS CHRIST. In fact this was not truly taught until Calvin. Which makes all those who just believed in JESUS lost since they did not know that they had been forced to believe.

Maranatha
---Samuelbb7 on 10/25/13


Scott 1, do you not read the Oracles of God were only given to Israel? That God defended Israel only, had the other nations slaughtered? Where was there free will? Where was their chance to resist or not the offering of salvation to them? You are blind and only want to accept what you believe is ok and reject the rest? Where was the love of God for those other nations? But you insist everyone has the right to resist or accept salvation. How about all the first born who were killed by the Angel of death? Where was their rights to resist or accept the Lord? And all those people dying in Africa, who never come close to the gospel. They don't have a right to resist or accept the gospel. Read the Bible. God is in control, and Just and righteous.
---Mark_V. on 10/25/13


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The babbsling is those who believe there is some sort of "power" in faith, that God has to first give it to you before you can activate that power. But faith is not a power, it is an ATTITUDE that can be accessed by even the worst of sinners. Faith comes by hearing God's Word, not by election. Nor was FAITH foreordained. Jesus Christ was.

Christan said Paul didn't have to have faith, that he was just plucked out, and is the perfect example of election. So what is it Christan, does one need faith or not? So tell us about your faithless experience, leading to salvation. Jesus just showed up telling you you were elect?

So you claim like Eloy, you SAW Jesus? And you wonder why people are laughing at you?
---kathr4453 on 10/25/13


Scott1: // My question is, how can God the ultimate example of love ask us to do greater love by loving our enemies Matt 5:27 when God does not love his enemies.// Please who are/were the enemies of God that He didn't show love to?
---ADETUNJI on 10/25/13


Hello Christan: // 2. which means only one thing - that God created Adam & Eve to fall, period// (1) If a human father makes a provision of recovery & retraining (in advance) for his Ward in case of failure, is this equal to making him to fail? (2) Job 1:5 Job was sacrificing to God in case his children have sinned, does that mean Job caused them to sin? (3) it seems you lack the fear of God, please watch and pray!
---ADETUNJI on 10/25/13


"My question is, how can God the ultimate example of love ask us to do greater love by loving our enemies Matt 5:27 when God does not love his enemies. "For no greater love than to lay his life down for his friends." and John 3:16
---Scott1 on 10/24/13

Excellently put Scott1!
---Nana on 10/24/13


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Didn't you know? "But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you." 1 Peter 1:19,20

First of all, predestination stands out here. And that's because:

1. God was only going to glorify His Son through His atonement work, which "was foreordained before the foundation of the world".

2. which means only one thing - that God created Adam & Eve to fall, period - or Christ wouldn't have to shed His blood at Calvary.

What stands out that's lacking in one's understanding is "FAITH from God". Hence the constant babbling.
---christan on 10/24/13


//not saving them means God has no love//

MarkV you have to understand "resistible grace" ,which is an influence-and-response not cause-effect like irresistible grace, to understand this comment. Samuel is not preaching universalism (all will be saved), but universal (all have the ability) atonement (Jesus death is qualitatively adequate for all men salvation, by faith.) If offering salvation is a loving act then with-holding the ability of salvation is an unloving act. Romans 9:14.
My question is, how can God the ultimate example of love ask us to do greater love by loving our enemies Matt 5:27 when God does not love his enemies. "For no greater love than to lay his life down for his friends." and John 3:16
---Scott1 on 10/24/13


do you believe that in your fallen state you reached out to God with your own free will and asked Him to save you? God the Father does not listen to unsaved sinners. And all the descendants of Adam are fallen unsaved sinners who are without Christ.
You reject the Truth. Who rejects the Truth? The unsaved.
Markv

GOD drew me to CHIRST. He reached out to me as he does to all humans. I simply responded in love to His love. You are correct all children of Adam are lost which includes you and Christian. Why are you accusing me of Universalism? I accept the Bible and truth and love GOD. You make accepting a doctrine a work that saves. Say a child has accepted JESUS but does not understand predestination. You are saying they are lost.
---Samuelbb7 on 10/24/13


Israel didn't even come to being when God spoke to these saints. Yes, they were gentiles - hard to believe isn't it?

Talk about babbling without understanding.

---christan on 10/24/13
so christan, you have contradicted yourself AGAIN AND AGAIN. YOU stated anyone before Jacob didn't matter or exist as far as salvation was concerned. You even mocked my bringing up Adam & Eve and then had the audacity to say God created them for hell. I wonder how Abel even knew about blood sacrifice except through being taught by his parents?

So again, christen is full of crap!
---kathr4453 on 10/24/13


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What would your fate as a Gentile, during the time of Israel's prophets been? Do you suppose they were predestined for salvation?
---michael_e on 10/24/13


Hmmm.... let's see and get our facts right. God never spoke to a gentile in the OT? Seriously? What kind of bible does one read and still not realise that Abel, Noah, Abraham and those before Jacob - even before God told him to change his name to Israel were all gentiles and not Jews. There was no such a nation as Israel yet before Jacob.

Israel didn't even come to being when God spoke to these saints. Yes, they were gentiles - hard to believe isn't it?

Talk about babbling without understanding.
---christan on 10/24/13


Rant and rave all you want. It's obvious from Isaiah that freewill is non-existent. Nothing but a delusion and lie from the pits of hell. If you believe in freewill, you will go where it takes you... most definitely not where Isaiah is.

---christan on 10/24/13

As for beginners, christen has no earthly clue what Isaiah 40-66 is all about. If he did, he would KNOW that it is God's Covenant promises to ISRAEL in reference to the earthly Kingdom reign for 1000 years.

Christan, you might be able to fool some people here, but some here know their scriptures, and know you are full of crap! Keep reading to the end of Isaiah ignorant person!
---kathr4453 on 10/24/13


"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else, I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass, I have purposed it, I will also do it.
"
Isaiah 46:9-11

Rant and rave all you want. It's obvious from Isaiah that freewill is non-existent. Nothing but a delusion and lie from the pits of hell. If you believe in freewill, you will go where it takes you... most definitely not where Isaiah is.
---christan on 10/24/13


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"Behold, the Lord's hand is not shortened. That it cannot save, Nor His ear heavy, that it cannot hear, But your iniquities have separated you from your God, And your sins have hidden His face from you" (Isaiah 59:1,2).

---Mark_V. on 10/23/13

I love these verses Markv uses to prove his point.

1. God was speaking specifically to Israel, ......see the words YOUR God.
2. What were the circumstances here. Does saved here mean ETERNAL life? Corporate NATIONAL Eternal life?

3. This includes ALL JACOB's who was renamed Israel.
4. Can you find ANY verse in the OT God spoke this to a gentile nation, referring to God as THEIR GOD offering NATIONAL eternal life?
Seeing they had many gods....
---kathr4453 on 10/24/13


Samuel, in your mind you have concluded, God cannot possibly elect a few of those condemned, because it is not fair to chose only a few. Even though those others brought shame to the Lord, Never glorified Him as God nor were thankful, yet God should save them also because not saving them means God has no love. You are wrong. God loves His children, those He chose before the foundation of the world to be saved. You reject the Truth. Who rejects the Truth? The unsaved.
"Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in LOVE" (Eph. 1:4).
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God to the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus.
---Mark_V. on 10/24/13


Acts 2:36_38 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

And thereafter the offer of Salvation came to ALL MEN by the same means as to them.

What shall you do? Stop being a witch for starters, Lisa.
---Nana on 10/24/13


Samuel, does man think? does man make choices? Of course. But do you believe that in your fallen state you reached out to God with your own free will and asked Him to save you? If you did you are not saved. God the Father does not listen to unsaved sinners. And all the descendants of Adam are fallen unsaved sinners who are without Christ.
"Behold, the Lord's hand is not shortened. That it cannot save, Nor His ear heavy, that it cannot hear, But your iniquities have separated you from your God, And your sins have hidden His face from you" (Isaiah 59:1,2).
Now the question is, why do you reject the Word of God? Who rejects the Word of God? The unsaved.
---Mark_V. on 10/23/13


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"Paul never claim to be fully saved!" Ruben

Are you serious? Jesus Christ appeared to Paul after His resurrection on his way to persecute Christians!

This is the very apostle God chose for Himself before the foundations of the world to reveal to him - for the benefits of the saints with regards to God's will, purpose, and not to mention the teachings and the guiding of the Christian. Paul wrote almost all of the epistles.

What is there for Paul to even find the need to claim that he is saved? Isn't writing the epistles sufficient for you to know that he is saved?

You see, Paul isn't an Arminian by nature, he doesn't need to "boast that he is save", unlike freewillers like you.
---christan on 10/23/13


Galatians 3:6-8

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.


You see, nothing about Jacob vs Esau here. Jacob needed no faith before or after.

I'm blesses with Abraham folks, not Jacob.
---kathr4453 on 10/23/13


"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth." Romans 9:11

Jacob I loved Esau I hated// christan


Has this person that keeps quoting this truly understand that there is nothing here in this verse YOU can "believe" by faith leading to YOUR salvation. So this person's faith is in God picking and choosing. But no promise God Chose YOU Christen. so now what? No Jesus in these verses either.

Jacob did not need faith whatsoever before or even after. so how exactly does this fit your perverted gospel christen??
---kathr4453 on 10/23/13


Whereas Arminians has completely no understanding of sovereign election or even grace. And... they're purely work mongers to begin with, pretending only to be saved by grace. That's why they hate the doctrine of election.
christan 10/23/13

Well lies or total misrersentation may make you feel great but neither prove your point. I do not hate the doctrine of election. I am opposed to making GOD an unfair arbitrary judge who gives no one any choice and then punishes us for not choosing.

Some atheistic Behaviorist theorist agree with you that humans do not have free will. That we are all just puppets of our enviroment. Which renders humans being unable to truly think or decide on our own. We are all just little programed robots.
---Samuelbb7 on 10/23/13


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What part did Paul have to play in being saved? NOTHING! That's 100% grace!
---christan on 10/22/1

Christan,

Paul never claim to be fully saved!

Romans 8:24 " But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently"

Why hope if already saved?

1 Cor 1:18 " But to us who are being saved, it is the power of God"

Romans 13:11 "Because our salvation is nearer now than when we first belived"

Salvation is not a one-time event, i was saved on this year at this moment and at this day, nope it is a on going process!
---Ruben on 10/23/13


Some people don't understand the difference between the word and meaning of graciousness and GRACE, or they seem to think in their ignorance that GRACE is graciousness.

But unfortunately for them, one day they will.
---kathr4453 on 10/23/13


God Knows from the beginning & He has the # ' s. The # of souls that will be with Him in heaven.
The # of souls that be with the devil in the lake of fire, mankind's souls by choice.
---Lawrence on 10/23/13


"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth." Romans 9:11

First and foremost, election has nothing to do with anything that the elect has done in his/her life, but that God out of His graciousness who elect those He is going to save from all eternity. That's sovereign election according to the testimony of Paul, an apostle of Christ.

Whereas the Arminian has completely no understanding of sovereign election or even grace. And that's because they're purely work mongers to begin with, pretending only to be saved by grace. That's why they hate the doctrine of election, period.
---christan on 10/23/13


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Predestination is that of being conformed to the image of Jesus Christ through suffering after salvation. This is to the CHURCH as a whole. One must know the difference between the CHURCH and earthly Israel. Calvinists do not, therefore pervert scripture to meet with their ignorance. Sad to say, they will never grow up into the fullness of Christ as long as they stay on this bender.

Their obsession with their own election dogma has stunted their growth. If perhaps they are saved, they will be munchkins in heaven. Great big inflated heads and grungy little bodies. They will have to stay that way for all eternity as a reminder of their arrogance.
---kathr4453 on 10/22/13


"According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" Ephesians 1:4

Quoting Ephesians 1:5 without verse 4 is being mischievous to say the least. That's because verse 4 explicitly declares that this election of the sinner to salvation was done "before the foundation of the world". Way way even before God created the world and mankind in it. Simply put, from eternity.

And the consequence of this election is the sinner is already been "predestinated to be a child of God through Christ". A classic example is the apostle Paul. What part did Paul have to play in being saved? NOTHING! That's 100% grace!
---christan on 10/22/13


Leon, the subject of predestination is for sheep, not lambs.
---trey on 10/21/13

Let the scripture do it. They won't believe you/us anyway.
Gen_9:9 I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you,
Gen_17:7 I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
1Ch_16:17 And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, to Israel for an everlasting covenant,
Heb_8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
---Trav on 10/22/13


Leon, the subject of predestination is for sheep, not lambs. Since you already have an Arminian viewpoint which is obvious based upon your belief that God has a desire to save everyone, implying that our salvation is up to us rather than the One that truly has the ability and the authority, an explanation of the doctrine of predestination would be futile.
---trey on 10/21/13


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This is not just a doctrinal issue, of knowledge and explanation. Predestination has to do with all that our Father guarantees because He has chosen all that is good, of His love.

I think you could understand that love destines things to happen. Like . . . if you love someone, it is "destined" that you will get married . . . or something like this.

Because of how our Father loves Jesus, it is destined how He will change us "to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (in Romans 8:29)

So, it is not only about who controls and who makes the choices. That is an ego issue and problem.
---willie_c: on 10/21/13


In Great Divorce, C. S. Lewis said through the mouth of his Conductor that predestination shows that eternal reality does not need the future in which to become real.

However, presently we live in time, and see things, as St. Paul said, "through a glass darkly."

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/21/13


Predestination the biblical fact that God has choosen all things past, present, future who will accept his grace. Eph 1:5 - In, love he predestined (choose) us for adoptions as sons through Jesus Christ according to the purpose of his will...
His will is that no one to perish (John 3:16). Therefore, God choose to send his son to earth for our salvation (Romans 5:8.) This is what the Eph 1:5 refers to. By the choice of God, If we humble ourselves and pray, seek (2 Chronicles 7:14) and confess with [our] mouth that Jesus is Lord ... you will be saved (Romans 10:9)
"Eph 1:5 does NOT describe him choosing anybody for damnation. Eph 1:5 speaks to our identity in Christ not God's choosing grace or damnation" Mark Driscoll
---Scott1 on 10/21/13


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