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All Or Gave His Son

God so loved the world he gave His all for it. Do you believe it or not?

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 ---Bryan on 10/23/13
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shira4368, as usual you don't read the context of MarkV's blog and you jump to the conclusion he denies the doctrine of the fallen man.

If anyone who truly denies the doctrine of the fallen man are you freewillers. And that's because in the fallen man, we are told by Paul explicitly, man is "DEAD in trespass and sin", rendering him useless to save himself or even believing in the Word of God. And that's because the word Paul used is "DEAD".

Understand what is "DEAD"? The absence of life! That's why the sinner needs to be first regenerated by the Holy Spirit in order to see the kingdom of God, and then enter the kingdom.
---christan on 11/1/13


Christan, you attempt to play word-games. Everything does not to be written to be true. It is proper to use intelligent deduction to draw information from Scripture.

Do we know Adam chose to sin? Yes "She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it" Genesis 3:6. Did God force or coerce Adam to eat the forbidden fruit? To imagine God coerced Adam to eat the fruit, having commanded him not to do so is absurd. Even more foolish is the idea that God caused/forced/induced/coerced Adam to eat the fruit then accused him of sin. Bizarre.

Your view makes God deranged.
---Warwick on 11/1/13


Warwick, you give the definition of free will,
" Oxford Dictionary definition of "free-will': "the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate,"
By definition, Adam acted without a cause. But Adam had a cause or reason for sinning. If he had no reason, he would not have sinned Merriam Webster definition:
"The ability to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention"
So if Adam had no cause or reason, why did he choose to sin? No man makes choices for no reason. Do you? We know God did not cause Adam to sin, "divine intervention" but he sure had a cause or reason to sin, his will was not free.
---Mark_V. on 11/1/13


markv, you deny man has fallen but exclude yourself as being the elect. you talk with a double tongue.
---shira4368 on 10/31/13


Warwick, show us without a shadow of doubt "Therefore Adams sin was his idea, his choice born of his free-will..." is written in the Bible.

While you're at it, God declared.

"Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass, I have purposed it, I will also do it." Isaiah 46:11, "For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all." Romans 11:32

"...even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed." 1 Peter 2:8

There you go, explicitly declared by the Word. Now, where're yours?
---christan on 10/31/13




Mark, Oxford Dictionary definition of "free-will': "the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate, the ability to act at ones own discretion." "Choice along with "free choice, free decision, voluntary decision" etc are synonyms (words with the same meaning) as 'free-will.'

Therefore Adams sin was his idea, his choice born of his free-will, or God caused him to sin. Which is it Mark?
---Warwick on 10/31/13


Ruben, the context of Romans 9:13 (which happens to be about election) goes hand in hand with verse 11.

"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth"

God's love for Jacob was unconditional as verse 11 says so. Hebrew 12:16-17 does not say that it was the reason why God hated Esau. Do you for once really think that Jacob was all that goody shoes when he deceived his own father? Isn't deception a sin? And God love sin? Ya right!

Don't say what the Bible doesn't say. And you have the audacity to say you have a problem with my interpretation. What hypocrisy!
---christan on 10/31/13


Shira4368, don't be a hypocrite. Did I even say in any of my blogs that I was "special"??? It's you and a particular cohort that accuse me of being "special" and turning it around to say I said it.

All I've ever done in CN is to speak and share the Truth that God has elected a people for Himself (and mind you, it's Scriptural and it's in black and white) and not only that, He "predestined them to be conform to the image of His Son". Sounds familiar?

Verses after verses have been given as evidence and yet you see not and accuse me of lying. Well, guess what? You are actually saying God is lying, since the verses came from Him.

Now you know why you're a hypocrite?
---christan on 10/31/13


Christian, I do not despise you at all. Im trying to understand why you think you are so special that Christ would die for you and let others go to hell. I will ask you how you got saved. I know it is the grace of God but my question is how do you know and what did you have to do to get saved?
---shira4368 on 10/31/13


christan* Let's go to Romans 9:13,14,

"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then?

Maybe you need to read the bible more, You need to find out why God hates Esau, the author of hebrews tell us why:

See that no one is sexually immoral or is godless like esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the the oldest son"(Heb 12:16-17)

Yes God knows a head of time what your actions will be and will not interfer!

BTW-Paul is talikng to Christians.


christan* If you hate God's way of election to salvation, your problem is with Him not me.

My problem is on your interpretation of scripture verses..
---Ruben on 10/31/13




Christian, is "purposed" actually a word?

If as you say God caused Adam to sin ( it was either Adam's free-will choice, or of God's doing) you paint God as a monster. This makes God the author of sin (while the NT only blames Adam) such sin as has caused the whole creation to suffer dreadfully for what Adam was caused to do by God. What vile nonsense it this?

That God has purposes and causes them to happen does not mean His purpose was to make Adam sin. That does not follow.
---Warwick on 10/31/13


Warwick, before making an argument, you should make sure what you say is truth. You suppose that making a choice means a person has free will. But it does not. Read the definition of what free will is. Why do you think the writers of Scripture who revised the Word, did not us free will? Because they know what it means. And if they put it down, the rest of Scripture concerning fallen men would be wrong. They are in bondage to sin. How can their wills be free? You said, you defend the Truth, then do it.
What you and many others are doing is denying man is fallen. When in fact he is unable to get himself out of the mess he is in. He doesn't love Christ, how can he choose Christ? He doesn't believe in Christ, how can he have faith in Him?
---Mark_V. on 10/31/13


Christan, We know Christ was for-ordained to die and rise again because SCRIPTURE tells us so. However, I see no scripture Adam/ Eve were for-ordained and PURPOSED or forced to sin. Why, because the Covenant between God the Father, The WORD and Holy Spirit planned TOGETHER and agreed together. But Adam/Eve did not exist before their creation, agreeing with God TO SIN.

God KNEW that these earthly creatures would. He created them lower than the angels, WHO already sinned. Why would He expect more from man.

God ALLOWED fallen satan in the garden.

Ever wonder why satan won't be allowed in the new heaven and earth?

Ever wonder WHY satan is BOUND for 1000 years while Jesus reigns and rules those 1000 years.
---kathr4453 on 10/31/13


The word that the Bible use is "purposed" by God. Here's a perfect example,

"For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done." Acts 4:27,28 - wouldn't you agree that God purposed this scenario for the death of His Son?

Isaiah confirms, "Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass, I have PURPOSED it, I will also do it."

Yes, Adam was "purposed to sin".
---christan on 10/30/13


Shira4368, how am I on a pedestal when I tell you that salvation is 100% by the grace of God. You asked me "How did you get saved?" and I sincerely answered your question.

And you despise my answer just because I tell you that it was God who elected me to salvation for no reason other than He loved me? You're offended by this? Then you should also be offended that God loved and elected, Abel, Noah, Moses, King David, etc to salvation. Not to mention the apostle He chosed from eternity to reveal this Truth to us, Paul.

If you hate me for answering your question, why did you even bother to ask someone who believes in election and predestination? Didn't you do your homework on reading these doctrines?
---christan on 10/30/13


Christian, please abhor the Word of God. God is not pleased with you. please come down off your pedestal and join the saved.
---shira4368 on 10/30/13


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Mark, you claim freewill does not exist, then say Adam sinned because he wanted to. This is a contradiction in terms as wanting to do something means choice i.e. free will.

Or do you claim God programmed Adam to sin? If so God is a monster who has subjected the whole of creation to the curse for thousands of years, blaming Adam, when in fact God himself was the cause.

In Deuteronomy ch. 30 we read God set before man a choice: life/prosperity or death/destruction. Verse 19 "Now choose life." If we have no freewill then Gods offer of a choice is empty, and evil, because if there was no choice then God lied.
---Warwick on 10/30/13


"Then what made you different then the ones he care not to save??" Ruben

If only you read the Bible more, all the answers are there from God. This time round, I'll help you. Let's go to Romans 9:13,14,

"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid."

Paul now throws the question back at you in that, do you have a problem if God chose to loved only Jacob and not Esau? To love only His elect and never the rest of the world? Has God, who's Holy and perfect done anything wrong?

If you hate God's way of election to salvation, your problem is with Him not me.
---christan on 10/30/13


1Pe 4:3-6

For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:
Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Judged because they reject the gospel. Not because they are puppets who cannot accept.
---Samuelbb7 on 10/30/13


trey, I never suggested God sent anyone to hell. God never sends anyone to hell but Christ died for everyone and everyone has a chance to be saved. the problem is we as a people are turning our backs on God. as a country we have turned our back on God.
---shira4368 on 10/30/13


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Mark, what you call "a lot of jumping around" most would call illustrating your point from Scripture. I have clearly demonstrated what 'all' means.

That 'all' can be saved is a proper comment as it agrees with the Scriptures I quoted say.

The point I demonstrated is that 'all' people have the choice, using the measure of faith God gave, but not all will listen and ask for forgiveness. Revelation 16:10,11 says that despite what they had been shown "People gnawed their tongues in anguish" but "did not repent of their deeds." Many never will repent, no matter what. But they all had a chance.

You misunderstand language as any group, no matter how small or large is composed of individuals.
---Warwick on 10/30/13


BY THE GRACE OF GOD THROUGH FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST. I never chose Christ, never will - if not for His glorious grace and mercy. I believe in Christ is because of the faith that God gave to me as taught in Ephesians 2:8-10. I was faithless.

And why did God choose me? No reason (it's unconditional) other than He said that He loved me from eternity just like He loved Jacob.
---christan on 10/30/13

Then what made you different then the ones he care not to save??
---Ruben on 10/30/13


Warwick, you did a lot of jumping around concerning the word "all." You even gave,
"
Romans 5:18 says Jesus' "act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. As all means all, all can be saved."
you add "can be saved" that is not in the passage. Literally the passage says "justification and life for all men" And we know it is not every individual because the next passage says,
"For as by one man's disobedience "many" were made sinners, so also by one Man's Obedience "many will be made righteous" (Rom. 5:19). They will be made righteous by God. So all does not mean every single individual.
---Mark_V. on 10/30/13


And why did God choose me? No reason (it's unconditional) other than He said that He loved me from eternity just like He loved Jacob.

---christan on 10/30/13

God's Love for Jacob, AKA Israel, the physical descendants that is, is unconditional as we see towards the end of Romans 11 that just as God promised He will again turn/choose to Jacob, after Israel sinned and rejected Jesus Christ( ***Isaiah 14) and bring them back to their own land and bless them. Ezekiel 36, Zech 12-14 and so many more places prove God's UNCONDITIONAL LOVE for Jacob/Israel.

But for christan to believe himself a physical descendent of Jacob is still puzzling to me. God loves Abraham and Isaac, so why is Jacob an obsession to them?
---kathr4453 on 10/30/13


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Christan "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive" 1 Corinthians 15:22. The Greek for 'all' means "all things, as constituting a whole." This 'all' is used in Colossians 1:16 "for by him all things were created..." John 1:3 "without him nothing was made that has been made." "All" therefore equals everything/everyone.

"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned Romans 5:12.

Romans 5:18 says Jesus' "act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

As all means all, all can be saved.
---Warwick on 10/30/13


"you are so right in saying Christ died for the whole world" Shira4368

Let's get one thing straight between you and I, know for sure I have never ever said such a thing as you claimed above. Those were your words, not mine - I abhor freewill and that's because it not even biblical.

"How did you get saved?"

BY THE GRACE OF GOD THROUGH FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST. I never chose Christ, never will - if not for His glorious grace and mercy. I believe in Christ is because of the faith that God gave to me as taught in Ephesians 2:8-10. I was faithless.

And why did God choose me? No reason (it's unconditional) other than He said that He loved me from eternity just like He loved Jacob.
---christan on 10/30/13


The fact is Jesus died for the sin of the whole world. It wasn't 1/2 an offering, or a limited death and resurrection.

Limited atonement would mean NOT ALL "YOUR SIN Christan" was dealt with.

You think because many don't understand ATONEMENT, you can horse around with it's meaning, limiting God, limiting it's power, limiting it's effectiveness. The blood of bulls and goats WAS LIMITED, but it was still for ALL the sin of all the people. It was limited because it could not wash away sin, or make anyone perfect. Yet you claim OT saints were Born Again under the limited atonement of bulls and goats. IMPOSSIBLE.

You guys are so ignorant . THEN you want to teach others? By who's authority? Not God's.
---kathr4453 on 10/30/13


Warwick, you say,
"Mark did Adam sin because he was selected to do so by God, or did he do so by exercising his free will" No one has free will but God. Adam sinned because he wanted. like you and me. No one is made to sin. unless someone puts a gun to your head. God knew if He put that tree of knowledge of good and evil, Adam and Eve would eat from that tree, and take all mankind down with them. It was ordained by God. If it wasn't ordained by God, then God is not an Omnipotent God.
Since we are told:
"He indeed was foreordained (as a sacrifice for sin) before the foundation of the world" ( 1 Peter 1:20). Before the tree was even there. Jesus was foreordained as a Sacrifice for sin that was to occur.
---Mark_V. on 10/30/13


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Christian, you are so right in saying Christ died for the whole world. God didn't say for the whole world of the saved. Christ died for the ungodly. do you think nickodemus was saved? how did he get saved? you avoid answering my question while you cut my free will down. I will ask you again. How did you get saved? neither you or markv has answered that. all you can say is how wrong we are.
---shira4368 on 10/29/13


Warwick and his cohorts - you simply confuse yourselves with your doctrine of freewill. It was Shira who claimed and with your full support said, "you cannot grasp the truth. Jesus did die on the cross for salvation for the WHOLE WORLD".

I don't even disagree that salvation is to individuals only that will make up the body of Christ. But you and your cohorts say Christ "died for the WHOLE WORLD" - do you even know what you are saying? You capitalise the words and then turn around to say it's individuals and not everyone.

Aren't you denying that the "world" mentioned in John 3:16 pertains to only the elect? You believe in the universal atonement, while I fully disagree with you.
---christan on 10/29/13


Christan, Kath is correct. Salvation is personal.

You wrote "If Christ came to "die for the WHOLE world" then the WHOLE world should be going to heaven, isn't it?" You forget the Lord "is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" 2 Peter 3:9-Romans 10:3 "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved"-"all" "everyone" or only a select group?

All are called but few listen. The saved listened, understood and acted. We also love and worship God from our free will, not compulsion. Love is not love unless willingly, freely given.
---Warwick on 10/29/13


Mark did Adam sin because he was selected to do so by God, or did he do so by exercising his free will?
---Warwick on 10/29/13


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Christian, you cannot grasp the truth. Jesus did die on the cross for salvation for the WHOLE WORLD. I will ask you like I ask markv, but markv never answered me. when and how were you saved. did you get saved just because you think you are special?
---shira4368 on 10/29/13


If Christ came to "die for the WHOLE world" then the WHOLE world should be going to heaven, isn't "it"

---christan on 10/29/13

christen, how many times has this been explained to you. WE,are not "IT's" . All BUT YOU, and markv don't understand it, and ask the same question over and over. Is it because you don't understand faith is a personal individual thing, not a GROUP "IT" thing.

ALL Israel was God's ELECT, but even you yourself quote, "not all Israel is Israel". Salvation is based on a PERSONAL one on one .

So shira is correct, all who are saved today are NOW called The Elect CHURCH..

Do you need more instruction?
---kathr4453 on 10/29/13


Shira4368, you say "God sent His Son to die for the WHOLE world" and then continued to say "anyone who is saved are then called the elect." Say what? Didn't you say He came to "die for the WHOLE world"? So what's the fuss?

If Christ came to "die for the WHOLE world" then the WHOLE world should be going to heaven, isn't it?

That's simply on the grounds that the precious blood of Christ we are told is what saves the sinner from eternal damnation. That's the meaning of atonement. After all, Christ is God and that's His promise of salvation.

The concept of Christ saving the WHOLE world and there'll be souls still going to hell is blasphemous to say the least.
---christan on 10/29/13


Warwick, If we know that salvation is by the Grace of God, and we know that to be true, why do so many keep fighting for their own rights of free will?
"Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of Grace. And if by Grace, then it is no longer of works, otherwise Grace is no longer Grace..." (Rom. 11:5,6)
Most of you want salvation to be both ways, your own free will and the Grace of God, similar to the teachings of the RCC. You cannot have it both ways. Salvation is by the Grace of God.
No matter how much you read the passages, you reject what they say. And make enemies here arguing against the real Truth. And you say to many, you believe in the Word of God.
---Mark_V. on 10/29/13


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Please explain how a righteous God could send a person to hell that Christ has paid the price for?
---trey on 10/28/13

Trey, people today go to hell because they rejected Jesus's Gift of salvation. Because they rejected the love of the truth that they might be saved. Thesselonians says this.

If you were on a sinking ship, and you had an offer to get on a life boat, and refused, your not dying because the ship is sinking, you are NOW dying because YOU refused the only hope offering LIFE. The life raft was there all along.

Now some refuse to get off the sinking ship, because they believe they can save the ship from sinking. Another fatal decision.
---kathr4453 on 10/29/13


"I believe in the LORD JESUS CHRIST. I believe he died and rose again the third day." Samuelbb7

So, does your believing in Christ comes from the fact that it was the Father who drew you to His Son? Or was it because you had the freewill to choose Him in order that you be save?

There's a great difference! That's why we have the written Word from God Almighty to make confirmation of what's Truth and lie. I'm not here to judge you and that's because everything we say is already judged by God.

Jesus said this "For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." Matthew 12:37
---christan on 10/28/13


Shira,
Is God righteous?
Do you believe Christ paid the price for the sins of every person who has ever lived?
Please explain how a righteous God could send a person to hell that Christ has paid the price for?
---trey on 10/28/13


Christian, I know the elect are the saved. God sent His Son to die for the WHOLE world. anyone who is saved are then called the elect. God did not favor you by any means. I know God is in control but you cannot prove a biblical passage where Jesus died for a few. it isn't in there. God does call some to preach, sing, deacon, a lot of ministrys. God does elect those out of the saved. kathr is correct in saying satan will do anything he can do to send all to hell. he does deceive even the very elect, which are the saved.
---shira4368 on 10/28/13


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I believe in the LORD JESUS CHRIST. I believe he died and rose again the third day. From the Bible I read he is my High Priest who intercedes for me. There is nothing I can do to save myself. Only Grace that GOD offers can save.
---Samuelbb7 on 10/28/13


Oh, the elect will know definitely. Anyways, you don't believe in election, so what are you babbling about? Please try not to confuse yourself any more than you're already confused.

---christan on 10/28/13

how will you know definitely? we see so many cults today being drawn in by the UNHOLY SPIRIT claiming THEY are the Elect, the ONLY ONES saved....Satan who can change himself into an angel of light and preacher of righteousness can deceive anyone who does not know scripture.

Many are drawn away by their own LUST and desire to be special..and promised that special thing if only they worship Satan. Jesus didn't buy it, but it sounds like christen has.
---kathr4453 on 10/28/13


"You sure believe in a lottery but you can't even buy a ticket!" Warwick

To begin with, election into the Covenant of Grace is not a lottery, never was. And even if you wanted to buy a ticket, it ain't for sale. So you see, you haven't the faintest clue or idea what sovereign election is all about even though it's explicitly taught in the Holy Bible.

"As regards you being drawn you do not know if it was our Father drawing you"

Oh, the elect will know definitely. Anyways, you don't believe in election, so what are you babbling about? Please try not to confuse yourself any more than you're already confused.
---christan on 10/28/13


Christan, I did not say you were angry with me at all. Just angry. Why so?

I believe if you were a witness to (as you believe) God selecting some from a group for salvation while condemning the rest to hell, you would hope in future to be in the 'selected for heaven group.' You would hope to be in this group, only hope, as you believe there is nothing you can do (even sincerely asking God for forgiveness) to get yourself in the happy group. You sure believe in a lottery but you can't even buy a ticket!

As regards you being drawn you do not know if it was our Father drawing you or that you were rational enough to know you need His offered forgiveness. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.
---Warwick on 10/28/13


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Warwick, your are standing against the grace of God. You say,
"As Jesus is not willing that any should perish, how do you know that all people are not given a chance?" No such passage where found in Scripture. If He is not willing that any should perish and many have already, then He is not the Jesus of the Bible who actually came to save. People are saved by the Grace of God through faith. You know those in hell God didn't save by Grace. You are suggesting there another way into heaven other then by the grace of God. That those in hell could be in heaven if they had done something right.
Second, SDA's believe in abortion, Jerry is an SDA. To be an SDA you have to believe in their beliefs.
---Mark_V. on 10/28/13


"You say you were in the lucky group drawn by the Father... Why are you so angry?" Warwick

There's no such thing as "luck" as far as God is concerned. A Christian doesn't belief in luck or chances like the world does. God is Holy and perfect, everything that happens in this world, is His perfect plan and will.

As for angry? Don't flatter yourself. I'm not angry with you or anyone, that's God's territory, not mine.

If I asked someone, "Can you prove you were drawn by Him?" and his reply was "My believing in Christ is because the Father has drawn me to His Son", that's good enough that He believe the words of Christ in John 6:44.

Can you say that?
---christan on 10/27/13


\\Cluny, cluny, cluny your so full of yourself what good are you? What do you have faith for yourself? Soteria this is greek to but you don't understand all of it.
---Bryan on 10/27/13\\

As a matter of fact Bryan, I speak, read, and write Greek, too.

You, on the other hand, cannot even write or spell properly in English.

In any case, what is your point?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/27/13


He gave His all, I do know. For His chosen people. God must come to you. Do not be deceived, PLEASE! COME ON JESUS!
---catherine on 10/27/13


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Mark, I still waiting to hear from you where Jerry personally agrees with or promotes abortion, as you accused him of doing. If you cannot show where he has said this you have defamed him and must seek his forgiveness.

As regards the definitions I gave it is not that I want to give them but that definitions are needed so that all know they are talking about the same thing.

Where have I made a "a stand against God's grace in the saving of souls" ?

As Jesus is not willing that any should perish, how do you know that all people are not given a chance?
---Warwick on 10/27/13


Cluny, cluny, cluny your so full of yourself what good are you? What do you have faith for yourself? Soteria this is greek to but you don't understand all of it.
---Bryan on 10/27/13


Warwick, I don't know why you would want to make a stand against God's grace in the saving of souls. You want to define the terms. The terms are that sinful man is saved by the Grace of God through faith. It is all the work of God. You give definitions of what Universal atonement is, and what a person says after they are believers. Because only those who are believers already by the grace of God make a commitment to Christ with their mouths. What Christan said is true. Unbelievers have to be drawn by God in order for them to believe. Plain and simple.
By arguing against John 6:44 you are bringing doubt to the grace of God.
---Mark_V. on 10/27/13


Christan, the facts of the matter are that terms are being flung about here, some of which appear to have different meanings to different people. Defining terms helps. I did a search and came up with the definitions I gave below. You seem to have a problem with that.

You say you were in the lucky group drawn by the Father. Can you prove you were drawn by Him? Can you prove that all are not called but few choose to listen?

Unanswered question: Were not all people once "outside of Christianity?"

Why are you so angry?
---Warwick on 10/26/13


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\\It is not a UNIVERSAL atonement. It is a world atonement. For "who so ever" believes. \\

Bryan, "universal atonement" and "world atonement" becomes the same words in Greek: "kosmikos ilasmos." (Don't forget that Greek is the original language of the NT.)

Now what?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/26/13


Warwick, you're a classic universalist, and you don't even know. Here's why:

- you make it out that ANYONE can "choose" to go to God by their own when Christ in John 6:44,65 says otherwise.

- should ANYONE then confess Jesus is Lord, according to Christ, their confession was simply because they were drawn by the Father. Outside of this "drawing by the Father", and you say you confess and deny this basic truth - well, your confession is pretty much false - void of faith from God.

3. either you acknowledge you were "drawn by the Father" that you could go to Christ or whatever confession you make is nothing by a lie. And freewillers will never acknowledge John 6:44.
---christan on 10/26/13


I think some here are confusing Universalism (the idea that all will be saved) with Universal atonement (that Christ's work makes redemption possible for all but certain for none.)

Maybe terms should be defined as this may reduce pointless debate. Which of the above definitions are you all arguing about?
---Warwick on 10/26/13


Christan, you wrote "Gave His all to only His elect or gave His all to the whole world, which includes the Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and everyone outside of Christianity?" Were not all people once "outside of Christianity?" Romans 10:9 "because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Do you imagine any sinner (whether Hindu, Muslim or agnostic) obviously "outside of Christianity" (as we all were) cannot be saved if he confesses with his mouth that Jesus is Lord and believes in his heart that God raised him from the dead?
---Warwick on 10/26/13


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It is not a UNIVERSAL atonement. It is a world atonement. For "who so ever" believes. The word is given, it is up to you who has ears to hear. You say faith comes by hearing? You have to believe what you hear for it to work in your life. So the atonement is given, But you still have to believe in it. Jesus is that atonement. Believe in him and the word will manifest in your life. Cause the word of God died and came back alive for you so you could receive the life it gives out.
---Bryan on 10/26/13


You just don't get it, do you? What the Arminians say is Christ died for everyone, making His death a UNIVERSAL atonement. This goes against the teachings of the Holy Bible.

And that's because Christ declared, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father."

Which simply means those who are going to hell is because they were not given to Christ by the Father.

Outside of this truth, you're a universalist, period.
---christan on 10/25/13


Universalism says that all will be saved.

Arminiasm says is that not all will be saved.

Therefore, Arminianism is NOT universalism, QED.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/25/13


"For you judge those who do not agree with your mind as being lost." Samuelbb7

Don't flatter yourself or others. I'm merely a creature from dust, I judge no one. Whereas, what you and others say, if it doesn't conform to the Words that's from the Scriptures, I believe I have the right to challenge them, just like you do. Do I accuse you of judging me?

Asking you to agree with me is the farthest thing on my mind. Even that you get it wrong. So, who's the one who's really judging that's accusing others of judging others?

What I put before you and others are quotes from the Bible, they are not my words by God's. And many a times, you're found wanting.
---christan on 10/25/13


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Samuelbb7, now, with regards to "judging", have you not read Christ teachings?

"Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment." John 7:24

"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." John 12:48

That's why I believe in predestination. Everything has been written by God and now it's just coming into fruition till the end of time.

"For the Lord of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?" Isaiah 14:27

The word is "purposed", not "caused".
---christan on 10/25/13


Samuelbb7, are you telling us that Romans 2:10-16 is advocating you live by the law? That's not even close to what Paul is writing in Romans 2. Christan

Yes I agree that is not what Paul was writing.
I was not advocating that Paul contridicts himself. We are saved by Grace alone through faith alone. I have stated this many times so I do not understand why you ask me if I am saying something I have stated over and over I am opposed to.

In that passage GOD is saying He will be the Judge of people by what is in their hearts. You teach here it is what is in their minds that causes them to be lost. For you judge those who do not agree with your mind as being lost.

But that is still not what the whole passage is about.
---Samuelbb7 on 10/25/13


Samuel, which part of all those passages do you want explained? If you are talking about
"For there is no partiality with God" (Partiality) lit. means "to receive a face." that is, to give consideration to someone simply because of his position, wealth, influence, popularity, or appearance. Because it is God's nature to be just, it is impossible for Him to be anything but impartial (Acts 10:34: Gal. 2:6: Eph. 6:7,8: Col. 3:25: 1 Peter 1:17). There is no partiality between Jews and Gentiles.
"sinned without the law" this refers to Gentiles who never had the opportunity to know God's moral law (Ex. 20:1-) will be judged on their disobedience in relationship to their limited knowledge.
---Mark_V. on 10/25/13


Samuelbb7, are you telling us that Romans 2:10-16 is advocating you live by the law? That's not even close to what Paul is writing in Romans 2 at all. For if Paul was advocating you perform the law to be saved, then salvation is no more of grace but of works as explained in the following chapters of 3 and 4.

Didn't you read, "For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."
Romans 10:2-4
---christan on 10/25/13


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Rom 2:10-16

For there is no respect of persons with God.
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law, (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, ... and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another,)
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Mark Christian please explain this?
---Samuelbb7 on 10/24/13


God treats everybody according to his word. If you are blessed to get to know his word it is not a respecter of person. God will treat all the same cause he is the only one who knows the heart of a person. The story of Job, God called him righteous in front of satan. Then satan said give me a wack at him and he will curse you. Did Job curse God no he did not. But Job curse himself many times. Any person can be blessed or cursed it will be according to their on words.
---Bryan on 10/24/13


Arminianism says that people can choose to cooperate with God's grace (more to it than this of course) to be saved, but those who reject God's grace will NOT be saved.

Universalism says that EVERYONE will be saved, whether they cooperate with God's grace or not.

NOW do you see the difference?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/24/13


Wikipedia is your source?
I rest my case.
---christan on 10/24/13

Actually a major study was done on the accuracy of Wikipedia and because of the extremely large number of contributors that many errors and false statements have been erased and removed. The accuracy rating was higher than many text books and hard copy encyclopedias.
---Scott1 on 10/24/13


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"You might want to look up the article on Arminianism on Wikipedia."

Wikipedia is your source?
I rest my case.
---christan on 10/24/13


Cluny, I have studied Universalism and Arminianism, and they are the same, they are both false teachings. Not the same in content, but the same as being false. God's nature is love, but God does not treat everyone the same. That should be pretty clear to everyone, since not everyone is born with the gospel. God has permitted people to be born where they will never hear the gospel of Christ. Many are born begging for a glass of water or food. Their minds are far away from any gospel.
---Mark_V. on 10/24/13


\\Then what do you call one who believes in the universal atonement of their christ apart from calling them an Arminian?

Dictionary defines universalist as "a theological doctrine that all human beings will eventually be saved".\\

And as you see, you've already defined "universalist." Not the same thing as Arminianism at all.

You might want to look up the article on Arminianism on Wikipedia.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/23/13


look i never said all would believe but I said, "God gave us his all". His word is all he has and He gave that to us. Oh by the way Jesus Christ is the word of God made flesh. Read the gospel of John chapter 1,2,3 & ,4 pretty much tells us God gave us his all right there. Everything was made by Jesus and God Gave us Jesus That is if you believe in him. The Gospel again is for "Who so ever", Believes
---Bryan on 10/23/13


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"Arminians are not universalists."

Then what do you call one who believes in the universal atonement of their christ apart from calling them an Arminian?

Dictionary defines universalist as "a theological doctrine that all human beings will eventually be saved".

That's why we have the dictionary. You may once in a while try using it before adding your "wisdom".
---christan on 10/23/13


Do you think your one of Gods' elect?
---Bryan on 10/23/13


\\You sound like a universalist, aka an Arminian.
---christan on 10/23/13\\

Arminians are not universalists.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/23/13


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