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Allowed To Attend Church

Should sinful people be allowed to attend church IE living together?

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 ---Lidia4796 on 10/24/13
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Sis. Lidia, everyone is a sinner, but some are saved by grace through faith, others are not. There is two kinds of people, those who belong to God, those who don't. God made the division when He cursed the serpent in (Gen. 3:15), the children of Satan and the children of God. Since all descendants of Adam are Satan's children doing his desires, God has to change their hearts for them to do the desires of God. Once they are changed by the Spirit, they are adopted into the family of God.
While in our physical bodies we still sin, because our bodies have not been redeemed yet, but our sins are covered by the blood of Christ. The Bible does not call us sinners anymore but the righteous. Since Christ has imputed His own righteousness on us.
---Mark_V. on 11/21/13


To Bro.Mark, all respect..I agree with you.amen.
---Lidia4796 on 11/15/13


Sis. Lidia, it is impossible for church leaders to know who is saved and who is not. It also impossible for church members to know if the leaders are saved or not.
So people just go in and seat down. Many just listen, and later stop coming for whatever the reason.
But when the Church was established, only believers were members. But Jesus said that wheat and tares would gather together. I would say every Church has both.
---Mark_V. on 11/14/13


Samuel, there is many people who have committed their lives to Christ, who do not know how that all came about. All they know is that one day, they thirst for Christ. And they go through their whole lives not even caring about what occurred to them. They are just happy in their joy, and don't care to know, only that they now love the Lord with all of their hearts.
As believers the whole New Testament is for our own knowledge, warnings, teachings, and so forth. If a person is genuinely in love with the Lord, he will want to know all there is to know about God. Jesus testifies for God the Father, The Spirit testifies for Jesus. We were completely lost without hope. And God was gracious to save us. We should all be thankful to God.
---Mark_V. on 11/13/13


Samuel, you say,
"Doctrine cannot be understood by everyone. Where is it listed as a reason for being in hell?"
You do know that having the wrong doctrine of the gospel will not save anyone? As for those going to hell, we are told all descendants of Adam are heading to hell already, they are found guilty, condemned because they do not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. Nothing can stop that but an Supernatural act of God in their lives. If that Supernatural act does not happen, they continue in their path to hell.
They are children of wrath, unless God changes their nature and brings them to Christ by drawing them.
---Mark_V. on 11/12/13




The test of correct doctrine for deciding if a person is a Christian or not has to be the most abused test of all time.

I prefer the one JESUS gave. In Matthew 25. You see a person can have good doctrine for JESUS said the Pharisees had good doctrine. But you will know a Christian by their love. The word there is Agape.

Doctrine cannot be understood by everyone. Where is it listed as a reason for being in hell?
---Samuelbb7 on 11/11/13


If sinful people didn't attend church, there would just be more empty buildings.
---michael_e on 11/10/13


Strongaxe, you say,
"Unfortunately, we are cannot perceive reality directly, just rely on what we observe"
Which is true, we cannot truly know a genuine Christian and a pretender. We can see and hear what they say, but what mostly gives them up is their fruits. Do they bring false doctrines? We are reminded many times of wolves in sheep's clothing's. Jesus told us that His sheep will not follow a stranger. What I believe is that if we are going to talk about genuine Christians, we should not include pretenders with us to give a point of view from Scripture. While they are mixed together with the Wheat, and God separates them, we should still not mention them in the same breath. They belong to a different group.
---Mark_V. on 11/10/13


Cluny:

You asked: Anyway, who said that faith and works were opposed to each other.

It's not that they're separate, because they aren't. Unfortunately, some people focus on one so much that the neglect the other, and any imbalance of that kind is prone to lead to problems, whether in this context or any other (e.g. diet).

Mark_V.:

Unfortunately, we are cannot perceive reality directly, just rely on what we observe. If someone calls himself a Christian, we tentatively assume he is until proven otherwise. Jesus said tares would only be separated from wheat at the final judgment - because it's very difficult to do earlier. ALL Christians are "so-called" Christians - some more aptly named than others.
---StrongAxe on 11/9/13


Strongaxe, there is a reason why I answered you, otherwise I would not have answered. When you make a statement that some Christians believe they have a license to sin, some people will believe you. It is not possible for a child of God to believe he has a license to sin. Making a statement like that, sounds to me like you are saying there is two kinds of Christians, some that believe they have a license to sin and others who don't. If anyone believes they have a license to sin, they are not one of us. You could have said, "so call Christians", this way you would put a doubt they believe they are, but are not.
Let me ask you,
"Do you believe their is genuine Christians who believe they have a license to sin?"
---Mark_V. on 11/5/13




\\just like two objects that are firmly connected, but only at one narrow point.
---StrongAxe on 11/3/13\\

A better analogy would be two sides of the same object.

Anyway, who said that faith and works were opposed to each other.

The Bible never did. Neither does the Orthodox Church.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/4/13


Mark_V.:

I didn't say or imply most Christians thought this way. Just that SOME do, because this is a type of error that is easy to fall into if one believes "once saved always saved" but doesn't look too carefully into all the other teachings of Jesus and the Apostles.

In just the same way that James-based "faith plus works" can sometimes lead some people into works-only beliefs, since "works show faith", so lots of works must show lots of faith.

Anyone who bases his beliefs on one or two true simple beliefs that have become cliches is prone to deviation if he doesn't ALSO take into account other basic beliefs - just like two objects that are firmly connected, but only at one narrow point.
---StrongAxe on 11/3/13


\\Cluny: In my 40 years as a believer in Jesus Christ, I have NEVER met a fellow believer who used their salvation as a "Get Out of Jail Free Card" to sin as they choose.\\

I have.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/4/13


Grandma, you are absolutely correct about discipleship. What is happening in the churches today is what we were doing at Ford Motor Company. The company wanted quantity not quality. In Church all they ever want you to do is commit your life to Christ and make the numbers big. I hear some who go on missions that while in Africa five hundred were saved, numbers seem to mean more then anything. And who disciples them? No one. They go back to doing what they use to do before, some in a matter of months. That is why many think there is many genuine Christians but their isn't. Numbers mean nothing if a person is not really saved.
---Mark_V. on 11/4/13


Cluny: In my 40 years as a believer in Jesus Christ, I have NEVER met a fellow believer who used their salvation as a "Get Out of Jail Free Card" to sin as they choose.

Becoming a believer in Christ is just the beginning of a life of study and accountability. I regret that nobody stepped up to disciple me when I accepted Christ as my Savior. It wasn't until I'd known the Lord for 20 years that I found someone to mentor, disciple, teach me.

Discipleship is what is commanded of us. That involves way more than just leading a believer to a saving knowledge of Christ. It involves developing loving accountability relationships. Some believers don't know how to do that with baby Christians.
---Grandma on 11/3/13


We don't all mean the same thing when we say that 'we have been saved'. Some refer to an emotional experience they went through after hearing the gospel preached, after which they sought counselling and signed a card called The Sinners Prayer. Many are lead to believe that constitutes 'being saved'. For some that is exactly what happened but for others it was a temporary emotional thing lasting only until temptation comes. I know a number of people who will say that they were saved when they were 17, 22 or whatever but for the last 40 years have never attended a church. A truly saved person would have the 'desire' to be with God's people in His house. "Genuinely saved always saved" and God recognises the genuine.
---Rita_H on 11/3/13


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Stongaxe, I find your reasoning very wrong. Are you not a genuine Christian? Of course you are. Do you think the same way they do? I'm sure you don't. So how can you concluded others who are saved, think that way? Isn't it obvious that no genuine Christian would rip off their friend, take his business away, and have a true love for Christ, and love his neighbor? So we have to conclude the guy was not saved. So why include them with those who are saved?
Those who are saved, are saved forever. Our assurance is the Spirit of Christ.
If someone does believe they have a license to sin, they are not one of us.
---Mark_V. on 11/3/13


Grandma:

You said: Cluny: I've attended many Baptist churches, and all have preached once saved always saved.

The biggest problem with "once saved, always saved" is that many people take this as a license, a kind of "get out of hell free" card. They think that they're free to do whatever they please with no repercussions. They forget that grace also comes with responsibility.

Years ago, a friend who ran a Christian publishing company left for his honeymoon, and his "Christian associates" into whose hands he entrusted his company spend $70K of his money, left to form their own company, and took most of his clients - all with no guilty conscience, because "Jesus forgives all".
---StrongAxe on 11/2/13


\\Cluny: I've attended many Baptist churches, and all have preached once saved always saved.
---Grandma on 11/1/13\\

"Once saved always saved" has degenerated into "once prayed always saved."

However, I was taught as a Baptist that once you got saved, you never had to answer for any sins, past or present. This is contrary to what shira said about herself.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/2/13


Shira, I agree with you. I've attended various Baptist churchs my whole life in a multitude of states across this nation and I have always been taught and believe with all my heart in what you call "Once Saved Always Saved" aka "Preservation of the Saints".

Cluny, I also know that there are Baptist churches that do not hold to the fundamenatl doctrines taught in the scriptures.
---trey on 11/1/13


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Cluny: I've attended many Baptist churches, and all have preached once saved always saved.
---Grandma on 11/1/13


While the Greek Orthodox parishes in this country have shown a penchant for using organs, most other Orthodox churches don't.

However, it's not a doctrinal issue with us, as it is with the Church of Christ. It's just not the usual practice.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/1/13


cluny, Ive never heard, seen, or attended a Baptist church that didn't believe once saved always saved. church of Christ thinks you have to be saved over and over and they do not even have musical instruments in church.
---shira4368 on 11/1/13


\\cluny, I do believe once we are saved, it is eternal. forever, eternal, forever. we still have to answer for what we do in the flesh.\\

That's not what I was taught when I was a Baptist, shira.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/1/13


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Cluny, we answer for our sins whether we are saved or not. But sin does not condemn us as believers. Believers in Christ are judge by what they have done, the bad will be burned and we are rewarded for our good at the Judgment Seat of Christ.
Unbelievers on the other hand are judge by their works. God will open the book and judge the lost righteously. They have already been condemned and will be sentence at the Great White Throne of Judgment.
---Mark_V. on 11/1/13


cluny, I do believe once we are saved, it is eternal. forever, eternal, forever. we still have to answer for what we do in the flesh.
---shira4368 on 10/31/13


\\I have to answer to my own sin. I would not want to be in his shoes on judgement day.\\

You mean you don't believe in once saved always saved, shira?

And if you're saved, as you have claimed elsewhere to be, why would you have to answer for your sins?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/31/13


Mark
My question was meant to be rhetorical.
---David on 10/31/13


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Lets look at this Paul was dealing with Christian who where form a pagans religion. He is trying to get they to stand on the word not to fall back to their pagan ways of Free love. As for unmarried people in the Church are they sleeping around? That is not right, that must stop. I know some folks who were not married in a church. But by their self in the on home and they are blessed by God pretty good. Maybe they did not know the word of God about marriage, So you just go and kick them out of the church their just dirty bags of water. No spiritual good!!!!!
---bryan on 10/30/13


David, Paul was not wrong in condemning the immorality of the Corinthian Church. He had heard of someone sleeping with his father's wife, his own stepmother. And the Church knew and had not done anything. They were puffed up, meaning arrogant and carnal, excusing such wickedness. Paul past judgment on the sinner, now it was the turn of the church to past judgment on him and put him out of the Church.
---Mark_V. on 10/30/13


How many of you think Paul was wrong in (1 Corinthians 5:1-12) when he judged the immorality in that church?
---David on 10/29/13


Lidia, I answered once, then someone with the same name Mark answered a few times. That person is not me. I am using Mark V. Sorry if anyone is confuse as to which Mark is answering.

Concerning the visible denominational Church, it should be of believers only. But we know it is not, it is made up of believers and unbelievers.
Second, no one should sleep with another unless they are married. Instructions are given in Scripture for our own good.
---Mark_V. on 10/29/13


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lidia, you are not referring to a denomination but wolves in sheeps clothing. there are many false preachers, teachers, cults and those who just don't get it. I know a Baptist preacher that got rich in land deals where he financed it for others and for some odd reason, they always defaulted on their payments so this "godly" preacher took the land so he ends up with all the land and all the money. I have to answer to my own sin. I would not want to be in his shoes on judgement day. there is much going on in many churches but I am thankful my church don't fit that category.
---shira4368 on 10/28/13


Bro.Mark, thankyou! Good point
with all respect .
I have known sometime now, there are "church denominations"
( who know & give a "red light" and a shut mouth & $$They know are coming from illegal activities.. they " were certainly" well received and the leaders act "shocked" when questions ARISE fr sources ask "pastor did you know so - and - so was involved??"
so, how come when they found out so- and -so now,incarcerated for those "items" .. NEVER told NOT to come into that church!

Everyone had like "eyes shut"??
Lidia4796
---Lidia4796 on 10/28/13


Mark: I know personally many "Christians" who gamble (invest?) in the stock market....what's your point here?
---1st_cliff on 10/28/13


We don't have anyone at the door checking on people's sins. That is done from the pulpit when the pastor preaches repentance and salvation
---KarenD on 10/28/13


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\\What if a married couple was gambling, or if they had a dangerous factory in Mexico. Would you not let them in the church then?
---Mark on 10/27/1\\

Very good point, Mark.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/28/13


You talk about living together (where I assume you knew there was something else romantic and physical going on, because if it was a male and a female sharing an apartment I think you were overdoing your judgement), but were you going as far in ALL moral judgement?

I have my doubts about that

What if a married couple was gambling, or if they had a dangerous factory in Mexico. Would you not let them in the church then?
---Mark on 10/27/13


Respectfully, to Grandma, Bro.Adetunji,others - your replies,exactly how church' did in my youth. No one was turn away!

the ministers,took time allow them -visit,learn and certainly spoke in love,teaching.They got married.

Re:the lady Pastor
by fon spoke to her ,she told me (angry) explicitly" NO way,"would they be welcome in" her" church.
I just was rather taken aback'
We talk about just to visit.
Not them being active or participate in church activities..

I will not mention her name. God knows exactly,who "she" is and he knows her issues..
Thankfull, they are looking else where
They are very sincere. God bless them. Thankyou,beloved brothers & sisters.


---Lidia4796 on 10/27/13


Living together is not the same thing as attending church, Lidia.

There is an old saying: The church is not a resort for saints, but a hospital for sinners.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/27/13


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Ha, Ha, Ha! God can save anyone, if they are not beyond redemption. And only God knows. I asked God point blank on this one. YES!
---catherine on 10/27/13


Mark and Strongaxe
I'm glad you responded to my comment.
Please tell me how you can tell someone they need to repent to be saved, and consolidate that teaching with a Grace teaching which says, You are not saved by what you do?
---David on 10/26/13


David:

You said: Today mostly all protestant churches, in their ignorance, teach that a person does not need to repent to be saved.

I have never yet encountered any protestant church that teaches this. If "most" do, perhaps you could name some specific examples, and exactly what they say?

On the other hand, "salvation is purely by grace" teaching DOES often lead to one error - that one can sin, repent, stumble, repent, etc. John says God is quick to forgive if we confess ours sins, but Paul asks if we should sin just to show how good grace is, and he says "No!". Many people accept the freedom of grace but ignore the responsibility that comes with it.
---StrongAxe on 10/26/13


David, your ignorant of Protestant theology. You say,
"Today mostly all protestant churches, in their ignorance, teach that a person does not need to repent to be saved." Protestant churches teach when a person is save by Grace, the Spirit convicts them of sin, and they are granted repentance by God. "When they heard these things they became silent, and they glorified God, saying "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance that leads to life" (Acts 11:18). Once they are alive together with Christ they recognize their sin and repent.
Then you say,
" They teach that Grace is the Unmerited favor of God." Grace is unmerited favor, it's not by anything we do to be saved.
---Mark_V. on 10/26/13


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Cluny
In (Matthew 12:50) Jesus tells us who he calls family. Those whom Jesus calls family are the church.

If a murderous child molester came to Christ, turning from sin (repenting), I would call him my brother, and love him as a brother.

Today mostly all protestant churches, in their ignorance, teach that a person does not need to repent to be saved. They teach that Grace is the Unmerited favor of God. If one is saved by Grace and that Grace is Unmerited, there is no need for baptism, confession of sin, obedience to God, or repentance.

And because of their ignorance, these unmarried couples who live together, come to church ignorant of what they do. And I would try to kindly explain it to them.

---David on 10/26/13


What is going to church for? If they don't hear the word how will they know? Cause most believers don't share the word out side of church, their afraid to. Cause they taught to share "judgment" not the love of God and that is why they don't share out side of church. The Gospel leads a person to repent no Judgment. When you hear the love of God you want that in your life, so you will turn from your sin. Jesus is so Good to us.
---Bryan on 10/26/13


I believe that pastor was wrong to reject the couple.

Attending a church service is entirely different than participating in the ministry of the church.

If a single person is already a member of a church, maybe teaching a Sunday School class, or singing in the choir, and then moves in with their boyfriend, or girlfriend, then that is a matter for church discipline. But, if a couple that lives together were to start to attend church, then the members of the church should get to know them. Find out what kind of relationship they have with the Lord. Minister the Gospel to them, and then teach them 1 Corinthians.

A church I used to attend did just that. The couple got married. They now serve in the church.
---Grandma on 10/25/13


I dont know! But, I seem to remember these!

For it is not ye that speak, but the (Spirit of your Father) which speaketh in you.

Howbeit when (he), the Spirit of truth, is come, (he) will guide you into all truth:

But the anointing which ye have received (of him) abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, (and is truth, and is no lie), and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.


For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him?
Even so the things of God knoweth no man, (but the Spirit of God.)
Peace
---TheSeg on 10/25/13


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\\Can someone attend church without keeping the company of those with whom they attend?
---David on 10/25/13\\

Yes. Easily.

"Keeping company" implies socializing and speaking with each other. One can attend a church without doing either of these with the others.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/25/13


Mark Eaton, Very well put!
My vision of the church is not clear cut (as with much of scripture)
The Pagans had a visible King, the Isrealites demanded one,(people) God gave them one. God gave them one temple only, today there are mega temples,cathederals,synagogues, churches galore,as with, People they are all different! as also bible translations!
Satan has well played the confusion game!
---1st_cliff on 10/25/13


If sinful people were not allowed to attend church there is little likelihood of them ever hearing the true Gospel and being Saved.

When people have been Saved and then fall away in some way (not necessarily sexual sin) but knowing that their behaviour is totally against God's law, they should be visited by the pastor and elders and asked to put their life in order before coming back to church.

Those who know the truth and have cast it aside for evil pleasure are in a different category from those who 'know no better'
---Rita_H on 10/25/13


It's not mine!
---1st_cliff on 10/25/13

Well, I waiting, What is your vision of church?

As a young man, I "toured" with a christian folk band for a few years and played in a lot of different churches, from Mennonite to Baptist to AOG to Catholic. Having spent a little time in each of them, I can say without a doubt that all of them have the same problem, people. People are the problem you describe.

People are the problem with churches. We want something for nothing. We want a relationship with God without prayer and Bible reading. We want the fruits of the Spirit without the suffering necessary to bring them out. We want strong faith without the trials that force us to depend on God.
---Mark_Eaton on 10/25/13


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The "churches" of today are an example of religious evolution!
God did not establish churches or even synagogues, Paul established the first of these Churches together with all their rules and regulations!
Jesus sent out the evangelists two by two, not to build churches but to witness the coming Kingdom!
Today they have become social clubs and gathering places with their own rules!
Here they have pot luck suppers, dramas, movies, youth clubs, bingos etc..
If that's your idea of Christianity then so be it.
It's not mine!
---1st_cliff on 10/25/13


"David, do you think that going to church is the same thing as keeping company?"

Cluny
Can someone attend church without keeping the company of those with whom they attend?
---David on 10/25/13


There is a region of Africa where the female: male ratio is high. Naturally because of stiff competition to have their own, ladies would pack into any man's house who shows significant interest & occupy before wedlock. Missionaries sent there didn't turn back because of this problem but teach, train them in Church and made them to formalize their union in Jesus Christ.
---Adetunji on 10/25/13


Hello,Beloved family actually,a couple I know, them since they were in diapers came to me. They wanted to go to church(s). They were honest with one Pastor,yes, they been living together quite a while..she told them NO, they would not be allowed into her church. They are disheartened but not removed from going else where. Thankfull, keep answers coming. Love of Jesus! Lidia4796
---Lidia4796 on 10/24/13


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christan Good scripture, This is were a lot of believer go astray they think they should judge, sin in peoples life. The word Gospel means "good news". If we would just understand Mark chapter 4, It is pretty clear what happens when we sow the Gospel in peoples life. Instead of pointing out their sin.
---Bryan on 10/24/13


David, do you think that going to church is the same thing as keeping company?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/24/13


Go to them, talk with them, take another person, and restore them first, before excommunicating them.

Matt 18:15-17 "Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector."
---Mark_Eaton on 10/24/13


Seems your perception of who should hear the Word of God is kind of problematic as far as salvation is concerned. Do read the following -

"And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples. And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?

But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."
Matthew 9:10-13
---christan on 10/24/13


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"Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone..." John Ch8
Matthew 9:12,13 - "Those who are well have no need of a physician but those who are sick...For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners."

Granted they should not be in leadership or have responsibilities in the church as their next step is to clean up that sin, but the church is the city on a hill for the light of the world.
---Scott1 on 10/24/13


Lidia4796: IF (1) they have not known the truth of the word of God, they should allowed to come to Church, to know the truth & to make amend Exodus 22:16-17. (2) they have known the truth but backslided, they should be disciplined & corrected by the Church to get married Exodus 22:16-17.
---Adetunji on 10/24/13


Good question.
(1 Corinthians 5:11-13) NKJV
But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortionernot even to eat with such a person. For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside God judges. Therefore put away from yourselves the evil person.
---David on 10/24/13


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