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Jesus' Example Of Wine

Proverbs 23,28-35

Was Jesus' example of wine not the [first non-fermented] state used, rather than wine after going through a longer processes which causing wine to ferment into strong wine?

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 ---Carla on 10/24/13
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Samuel when you don't tell us to whom your comments are directed how are we to know?

You wrote "Because of what you friend said worked." As you have not indicated otherwise I will assume this comment concerns the French winemaker producing good wine using only the natural yeast on the red grapes. My friends comments were not an opinion because he met the winemaker, discussed the process and drank the wine. As a winemaker of long-standing his analysis of the situation it that of an expert who was there.
---Warwick on 11/5/13


Words mean what they mean. You can't quote scripture to try to prove that wine really means unfermented grape juice.
---Cluny on 10/30/13

I think this is the issue at its core.

The blog question argues that the "fruit of the vine" may be unfermented grape juice and that the word "wine" does not always mean fermented wine.

I find this idea preposterous. We American Christians have such a Prohibition hangover about alcohol. Can we all agree with the statement given by the Apostle Paul to the Corinthians that it includes wine and drink?

1 Cor 10:23 "All things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful, all things are lawful for me, but not all things edify"
---Mark_Eaton on 11/5/13


My Dad complained about having to throw terrible wine out. Because of what you friend said worked. So I do not know how both can be correct. Unless there is a step your friend adds that my dad left out.

Now Abraham Lincoln died before the internet so that is a funny quote. I have found Wikipedia to be a good source on many topics. I always try to cross check.

If Are you saying we cannot trust anything on the internet?

While you cannot trust everything there is a lot of truth there.

Wine is a legal drug. It's purpose is to dull the senses. I wish to concentrate on the HOLY SPIRIT not the spirit of dullness. How much money has your friend spent on wine that could have saved people from starving to death?
---Samuelbb7 on 11/4/13


Wikipedia is not reliable at all, because anyone can contribute anything they desire.
---Grandma on 11/2/13


Good one Jed. I also believe he was a fan of hang-gliding.
---Warwick on 11/1/13




Warwick, I concur that all you have been taught is not so as. wine is only at its peak also when the vine used is grown through the right climate, weather conditions also determine the wine hence the flavour !
---Carla on 11/1/13


Samuel, Abraham Lincoln once said "Don't believe everything you read online". You don't actually believe everything you're repeating from those websites (including Wikipedia) do you?
---Jed on 11/1/13


Samuel, my friends experience is not a story but a reality. Believing it was impossible to make good strong wine via the yeast on the grape skins he asked the winemaker in France how he gets such good and reliable results. The French wine maker said he leaves the skins in the fermenting pressings for a much longer period than normal. My friend is a wine maker, and connoisseur, and had never seen this done. His first-hand experience outranks a story on a site such as wicky, which is not peer reviewed.

I am no expert but have been involved in wines for many decades and know my way around the subject.
---Warwick on 11/1/13


grandma, you are right. the way you worded it started me thinking about all that going on in church.
---shira4368 on 10/31/13


Well Warwick that is an interesting story. But it goes against my Dad's experience and what wine makers say on many internet sites about how to make wine.

Did you read what Wikipedia said about wine in Israel during the days of the Bible?

Did you visit any of the other websites that speak on that same topic. Or was your mind made up already and you do not want to actually investigate facts?
---Samuelbb7 on 10/31/13




Shira: Please don't get me wrong. I never mentioned gambling, and have never gone to churches that have it.

Nor did I mention drinking in church. I know Christians who drink socially. And have been at social events, like a professional baseball game, with members of my church who enjoyed beer there.
---Grandma on 10/31/13


Samuel, a friend has just returned from a stay in France, near Carcassonne. There he purchased a red wine which was made only from the yeast on the skins. He (a winemaker himself) said it was excellent. I look forward to having some when next there.

---Warwick on 10/31/13


Yes, Carla, there are different types of wine, depending on the grapes used.

And they are ALL fermented.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/31/13


There are different types of wine how can you fail to determine this?
---Carla on 10/31/13


\\The fruit or the vine differs somewhat from strong drink... go ahead, your welcome to provide scriptural evidence and contribute !\\

Words mean what they mean. You can't quote scripture to try to prove that wine really means unfermented grape juice.

And the argument that some tried to advance that "wine back then wasn't as strong as wine today" is hogwash. Left to its own devices, fermentation stops about 10-14%, depending on the sugar content of the must and strain of yeast, because the alcohol produced kills the yeast at that point.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/30/13


Carla, please go back and read your last post. I am not sure what you mean.

My argument is that Proverbs 14:26 clearly shows God saying buy wine or strong drink (whatever that means as strong is not defined) which is a very strange thing if God is indeed against such alcoholic drinks. He is of course not recommending drunkenness as Scripture, elsewhere, proves.
---Warwick on 10/30/13


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cluny is at it again. he just can't keep quiet with his insults. I think it is rather comical.
---shira4368 on 10/30/13


Well I looked up some sites on the Wine of the days of JESUS. Most said it was poor quality and low in alcohol. You can read what Wikipedia says about it also. Wikipedia adds that they boiled grape juice into a syrup and added to the wine to improve the taste.

As I have pointed out before natural fermenting wine is poor to bad quality and this I get from web sites on making wine.

It seems a lot of people want to believe stuff without every actually researching the facts.
---Samuelbb7 on 10/30/13


That's fine Cluny perhaps you'd like to start a blog on different churches, however, legalistic you want to call it, Christ was very legal, righteous and also a perfectionist, the point is The fruit or the vine differs somewhat from strong drink... go ahead, your welcome to provide scriptural evidence and contribute !
---Carla on 10/30/13


\\a church that does not believe the one you described is not legalistic. Ive seen legalistic churches. we are to come out from among them and be separate.\\

That's what I did by becoming Orthodox.

I came out from among them--especially Baptists.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/29/13


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However, Warwick this is not what is being discussed and further more I drink wine on very rare occasions and see wine as a beverage oddly when offered no problem.

Based on your answers on previous post's they have been very edifying, however I fail to see where you put in the work needed to verify your conviction other than strong drink.

I can't keep repeating myself, please answer the question rightly or wrongly what I have posted using scriptures based on the fruit of the vine differing from common alcoholic fermented wine.

I am fully aware of the scriptures, just thought your were also!
---Carla on 10/29/13


Carla God's word says "spend the money for whatever you desire oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household" Proverbs 14:26.

I ask you a direct question: Is there any condemnation of drinking wine or strong drink here? Stop being evasive and answer this relevant question.
---Warwick on 10/29/13


Research shows the fruit of the vine is evidenced twice in the same context in the bible and on exactly the same issue,
---Carla on 10/29/13

Please provide BCV for your evidence. Warwick and I have provided our Scriptures, you have provided none.

Your referral to the "fruit of the vine" and "drinking it new" is this passage, which Jesus is instituting Communion on Passover night. Jewish tradition tells us they drink fermented wine with the Passover Seder meal, even though yeast is forbidden.

Matt 26:29 "But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Fathers kingdom"
---Mark_Eaton on 10/29/13


Samuel gives the very point I am making Warwick, why add accusations, that is not what the question was about.

Your argument of strong drink can be easily reduced to the very point I carefully made, since anything that is strong can be made weak, likewise anything weak can be made strong or stronger!

So again the fruit of the vine is different from strong wine both have different names. Research shows the fruit of the vine is evidenced twice in the same context in the bible and on exactly the same issue, Christ refers to it being consumed new in his Kingdom! was that too difficult for you to do?

There are those who teach and those who are puffed up, boasters, unkind, ungodly, which are you?
---Carla on 10/29/13


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gramma, I do believe you about some churches dance, drink and gamble. cards are ok as long as people don't gamble their money away that is meant to feed their family. a church that does not believe the one you described is not legalistic. Ive seen legalistic churches. we are to come out from among them and be separate. we are a pecular people. God said that I didn't. my heart would be pricked to even see dancing and alcohol in church.
---shira4368 on 10/28/13


Shira,
the camp is the same ones who "tithe" unbiblically, condemn others for working on Sunday,

misunderstand 1Thess 5:22 to mean that we shouldn't do things that could be mistaken to be evil

misunderstood Romans 1:27 as speaking of AIDS

insist on "old time" hymns that were written 1800 years after Christ died

insist that the KJV is infallible - laughable

You know who I'm talking about. You go to church with them
---James_L on 10/28/13


Shira: Yes, there is a group of believers that allow dancing, cards, and alcohol, if one chooses. I've been a practicing member of several non-legalistic churches. Since becoming a believer, I've been to dances, and have danced at a variety of events. I play cards with my grandchildren, and other family members. Crazy Eights, Go Fish, Rummy, and are just a few of the card games I've been teaching them.

As for alcohol, I don't drink. My ex never drank. Not because we believe it is sinful to do so. Just because we choose not to drink. I am fine if a believing friend chooses to drink. I've even been to baseball games with a large group from my church, and have seen some bring back beers to their seats.
---Grandma on 10/28/13


Carla, as you have avoided answering my questions it is fair for me to say you have avoided them because you cannot do so without admitting you are wrong.

"spend the money for whatever you desire oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household" Proverbs 14:26.

It is clear that God's attitude concerning wine, and even strong drink, is different to yours. God's view is moderation in all things while yours is prohibition. I wonder who is correct?
---Warwick on 10/28/13


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\\Jews had pasteurization which is the heating of wine. It is documented in history.\\

Can you say where this is documented, Samuel?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/28/13


My Dad made wine. Look up on making wine you will read that natural yeast fermentation makes wine taste terrible. I actually have drunk real wine and nonalcoholic wine. The taste is similar but not all wines taste alike. If you insist it does I will point you to the experts in such things and they will recognize what you do not know.

Jews had pasteurization which is the heating of wine. It is documented in history. I also remember my Dad throwing out wine because it had not fermented correctly. Also wine has differently levels of alcohol in it. Today wine has more alcohol then in Israel unless you mixed it.

Priests and Kings were to abstain from alcohol for it dulled the senses. I am a priest and King in Israel by the New Birth.
---Samuelbb7 on 10/28/13


James you don't want to go to the movies as it could lead to dancing and where would that end? Maybe playing billiards and all kinds o bad stuff!
---Warwick on 10/28/13


jamesl, what camp are you referring to? is there a camp where dancing, cards, alcohol is allowed?
---shira4368 on 10/28/13


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vine Ampelos

wine Yayin

Again I put it to you the both are not the same !
---Carla on 10/28/13


Those on the "no drinking" bandwagon are from the same camp that used to condemn dancing, playing cards or billiards, and attending movie theatres.

Good grief
---James_L on 10/27/13


Jed, I believe you are right. In the US many Christians react as though you are about to inject heroin if you are seen with a glass of wine or beer. However in Australia it is more that some Christians drink alcohol, and some don't. The non-drinkers here are rarely condemning and militaristic (unless they attend a US based church) as they are in the US.

In Christian circles Europe is much the same as Australia where wine or beer is a common part of a meal. I stayed in Germany with a local scientist/evangelist who, at the first meal simply asked-wine or beer?

The choice is ours and I tire of the anti-drink brigade. Am I recommending drunkenness? No more than I would recommend gluttony.
---Warwick on 10/27/13


Wine is fermented. There is nothing to suggest Jesus' wine was unferment. You are merely making assumptions based on religious indoctrination rather than what the Bible actually says.
---Jed on 10/27/13


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Open your ears and pour him in. Hopefully some of him will stay in your heart.
---Bryan on 10/27/13


\\The example is why did the fruit of the vine have to be fermented?\\

Freshly squeezed grapes yield juice that immediately starts to ferment from the natural yeasts already on the skins--barring pasteurization.

Pasteurizing grape juice was developed by Welch, a Methodist minister. (I'm not making this up.)

\\The scripture states the wine at the wedding of Cana was the best. No indication of it specifically being alcoholic.\\

Of course, first century Jews were totally incapable of distinguishing unfermented grape juice from fermented wine by taste, right?

If you've ever tasted wine, you will know that the two liquids do NOT taste alike.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/27/13


Carla, let us, just for the sake of argument imagine 'wine' does not mean wine, but grape juice. I notice you quite sensibly ducked my question on Proverbs 14:26, which reads "spend the money for whatever you desire oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household."

My new question for you not to answer: if wine isn't wine, but grape juice, in line with Isaiah 5:22 what does 'strong drink mean?
---Warwick on 10/27/13


At the last supper, if it wasn't actual - true wine, I think The Lord could have said, grape juice, this cup of, woo - woo - woo welches ( grape juice ).

Luke 10 v 34. The oil has a soothing effect, where the wine ( alcohol in wine ) has a cleansing - disinfecting effect.

Wine is made from the fruit of the vine. Grape juice the same. I'v drank a lot gr - juice & Never felt a spirit from it. Wine, I have.
---Lawrence on 10/27/13


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The example is why did the fruit of the vine have to be fermented?

The scripture states the wine at the wedding of Cana was the best. No indication of it specifically being alcoholic.
Furthermore Christ's accusers seeing him with sinners slated him as a wine bibber they called him, a glutton.

let those who judge wrongly examine their own consciences. Scriptural evidence is what you could alternatively bring to the discussion?
---Carla on 10/26/13


I have been more drunk with conceit and welcoming excuses to criticize others. I could make things up.

And I see we have people who make up things about drinking so they can then say only they are right, and look down on others.

Paul says, "I will not be brought under the power of any," in 1 Corinthians 6:12. So, not only do we need to not be under the power of alcohol, but also be sober by not giving in to abuse of food, arguing, complaining about God's blessing of rain, and other wrong things, including making up ways to look down on others and claim we're the only ones who are right.

Conceit is more toxic!
---willie_c: on 10/26/13


Bryan, Perhaps you will be good enough to explain the metaphor on just how we "drink Jesus"!
---1st_cliff on 10/26/13


Yes Jesus made wine, Jesus is the new wine from God. Drink the wine he is and you will have life ever lasting.
---Bryan on 10/26/13


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Carla,

If what Jesus did was to make wine that was unfermented then he made grape juice. Oh that explains why the ruler of the feast said:

And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine, and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good grape juice until now. Is this Welch's???
---trey on 10/25/13


Carla, a little knowledge about a subject helps understand it. The better wine first, poorer later is common, even today.


"spend the money for whatever you desire oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household" Proverbs 14:26.

Is this God saying don't or do buy wine or strong drink?

'The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, "Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard,.."' Luke 7:34

No rational person would accuse a teetotaller of being a drunk. The best lie is a half-truth therefore Jesus must have been seen drinking.
---Warwick on 10/25/13


The indication in scripture is 'fruit of the vine' and yes... it could easily mean fruit juice!

---Carla on 10/25/13


Jesus turned the water into fermented wine.

If you do not believe this to be true, what do you make of this statement in the same passage?

John 2:10 "And he said to him, Every man at the beginning sets out the good wine, and when the guests have well drunk, then the inferior. You have kept the good wine until now!"

I have yet to hear anyone explain what the adjectives good and inferior mean when referring to grape juice. The passage makes sense only if the wine is fermented. Only after a few drinks or partial intoxication, can people be persuaded to drink inferior wine.

What do you say if the wine was grape juice?
---Mark_Eaton on 10/24/13


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