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Compromise The Gospel IRS

A few churches have already compromised the Gospel in order to keep their non-profit status. What will you do when your church compromises the Gospel to keep its non-profit status as dictated by the IRS?

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 ---Steveng on 10/27/13
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Nothing that NurseRoberts said aboit conservatives is actually true. But I've come to expect nothing truthful from him. He sides with the liars and perverts in the democrat party.

Heres somethng that is true and also is a proven statistic. NOBODY gives more of their own hard earned money to the needy that those who are considered very conservative. Dont confuse politically enslaving families to the democrat party by stealing money from the working class in order to keep children enslaved in poverty with compassion.
---Jed on 11/13/13


\\are profetus, not pro life (since they don't care about the child after they are born)\\

Nurse Robert, most pro-life activists I know (and I'm among them) are not only against abortion, but are also for helping children after they are born.

There is more to being pro-life than stopping pre-born babies from being killed.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/13/13


\\And perverting a good Bible story in order to act like you are oblivious to pop-culture terms is not funny in the least bit.\\

Jed, unlike you I pay no attention to pop-culture, as I do not seek to be conformed to this world.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/13/13


Jed, being the spokesman for God, clams liberals cant be Christian.

Well since conservatives cut funding for food stamps for children, are trying to deny health care for the sick, and now are pushing to cut maternity care for women, support predatory capitalism, have no problems instigating false wars, are profetus, not pro life (since they don't care about the child after they are born)... neither can they.
---NurseRobert on 11/13/13



How can you when it's not clear if Jed himself knew what he meant?
---Cluny on 11/12/13


Actually, I was very clear. Your attempt at being witty by pretending not to know what a "same-gender relationship" refers to was only half successful. And perverting a good Bible story in order to act like you are oblivious to pop-culture terms is not funny in the least bit. It is very disrespectful to God's Word and offensive to those of us who do respect the Bible. Everyone here including yourself knows "same-gender relationship" refers to a romantic or erotic relationship. Google "same-gender relationship" if you don't know what it means. You will not get any results referring to a mere friendship.
---Jed on 11/13/13




\\We ALL knew what Jed meant.\\

How can you when it's not clear if Jed himself knew what he meant?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/12/13


Cluny, dont play dumb. You know full well what I meant by same-gender relationship. Typical of you to try to distract from the point by playing childish word games. The fact is still the same that you cant support the LGBT movement and rightly call yourself a christian.
---Jed on 11/11/13


\\Christians don't defend same-gender relationships. \\
-----
Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/9/13


CLUNY's REPLY was in reference to Jed's original statement having nothing to do with emotional bonding with your MOTHER IN LAW. We ALL knew what Jed meant.
So YES, Cluny did imply, based on Jed's comment something above everyday normal relationships we have with our family.

I'm more offended Cluny accused Naomi and Ruth of TRICKING Boaz.

He knows nothing about Jewish customs of those times and made an ever stupider comment. Have YOU read ALL the book of Ruth Cluny? I say you did not. For the answer is in English easily understood.
---kathr4453 on 11/11/13


\\Cluny, apparently you don't know what the term "same-gender relationship" means.
---Jed on 11/11/13\\

You don't think that "same-gender relationship" is a synonym for "homoerotic relationship", do you?

If you do, then it is not I who doesn't know the meaning.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/11/13


Jed it seems you are the one who has the Problem not Cluny. Men can be like brothers with other men and women can be like sisters or even daughters and mothers to each other.
---Samuelbb7 on 11/11/13




The Bible being opposite of Liberalism does not show a correct understanding of liberalism or the Bible.

I am a moderate and see good on both sides. In the Bible all property had to be returned to family ownership at the end of 50 years. Today that sounds very liberal.

Each person was to work and handouts only went to widows and orphans who could not work.
---Samuelbb7 on 11/11/13


Cluny, apparently you don't know what the term "same-gender relationship" means.
---Jed on 11/11/13


\\I knew the Eastern Orthodox had some pretty crazy beliefs. But saying that Ruth and Naomi were lovers! How sick!
---Jed on 11/10/13\\

But I didn't say that.

I merely said they were each other's primary EMOTIONAL relationship.

Don't you and shira understand English?

Reread what I said. I chose my words carefully. I NEVER said their relationship was sexual. You merely want to think I did.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/11/13


Jed, I'm sure that is just Cluny's belief. It has been noted by many, that those who practice this way of life, and claim Christianity, look for any scripture they can to justify their own life style. Johathan and David is another one they will use.
---Anonymous on 11/11/13


Jed, you are right, it is sick to say Ruth and Naomi were lovers. It was her mother-in-law. All Naomi wanted was for Ruth to get married. In fact to one of Naomi's relatives.
Where would someone come out with that story that Ruth was in love with Naomi?
---Mark_V. on 11/11/13


I knew the Eastern Orthodox had some pretty crazy beliefs. But saying that Ruth and Naomi were lovers! How sick!
---Jed on 11/10/13


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Cluny, don't you dare liken the godly FRIENDSHIP of Ruth and Naomi to the LGBT community! This is absolute perversion of God's Word and may the LORD rebuke you for your blasphemy. Sicko! Perfect example of a liberal!
---Jed on 11/10/13


cluny, wow I can't believe you just said that. Please read Romans 1 how God will turn one over to a rebrobate mind. If you think God approves of men with men working that which is unseemly. God just let's them be a reprobate. Another example of free will.
---shira4368 on 11/10/13


\\Christians don't defend same-gender relationships. \\

Have you ever read the Book of Ruth?

It's obvious that Ruth and Naomi were clearly emotionally bonded with each other.

Ruth's words, "Entreat me not to leave thee...", so frequently sung at weddings, were first uttered by one woman to another woman, and the context is about rejecting finding a new husband.

Did you ever think of that.

Ruth's later marriage to Boaz was more a marriage of convenience, as all decent women of child-bearing years were married. She actually tricked him into marrying her. What did you think "slept at his feet" really meant?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/9/13


Cluny, what are you talking about? ALL of the issues I mentioned are the very core of liberalism today. What do you think a liberal is?
---Jed on 11/10/13


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I don't see Paul or anyone teaching the NT Church is to take back gentile governments for God. That is a man made religion that ends in blood. And the blood will ALWAYS be that of the Christan.

We are strangers and foreigners in this world, even America, founded on the law of Moses, through the first Calvinists who came, Believing America was the NEW Israel , and Americans God's NEW chosen people. All a lie from hell.

God NEVER made a covenant with a gentile nation! EVER. And America will NEVER replace God's covenant with Israel.

And, this country was NEVER founded on JESUS CHRIST's death and resurrection and NT principles.
You can't have two masters. Better make that choice now.
---kathr4453 on 11/10/13


The Ode of Puritan Calvinism

Onward Christian soldiers, sail,
Across the seas, and show your tail,
March or' the lands and place your mark,
With Israel's lost, "or stolen Ark".

We are REFORMED Theology,
And we make NO apology,
marching or' the lands you see,
TO RID YOUR HOMES OF MTV!
---kathr4453 on 11/10/13


Strong ax, the bible is the opposite of liberalism.
---shira4368 on 11/10/13


What does transsexuality/transgenderism have to do with this discussion?

I don't expect you to understand the issues involved. However neither you nor I have to make the decisions involved or deal with their consequences.

And none of these issues, or even all of them together, are of the essence of liberalism.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/9/13


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Jed:

You said: No you can't be both a liberal and a Christian. after listing a bunch of things you claim so-called liberals believe.

I consider myself a liberal and I don't support abortion, so you reasoning is therefore necessarily flawed or at least incomplete.

Again, you're rejecting the Bible's definition of liberal, and substituting your own. Why not take the Bible at its word?
---StrongAxe on 11/9/13


Jed amen brother, amen. If Christians were as loud as the heretics, we could take our country back. People have come to America because opportunity and I welcome them but when they try to change America it's time to take a stand, however, our president has done universal damage that we may never recover.
---shira4368 on 11/9/13


Christians don't support abortion. Christians don't defend same-gender relationships. Christians don't support gender re-assignment. Christians don't support promiscuity. Christians don't pass out condoms and teach school kids how to get an abortion. Christians DO teach abstinence. Christians don't steal money from others to fund laziness and buy votes. Christians DO work hard and gladly give to the truly needy in their own communities. Christians don't fund Islamic Terrorist who kill Christians with tax dollars stolen from other Christians. Christians don't publically mock morality, and then prosecute real Christians for standing against immorality.

No you can't be both a liberal and a Christian.
---Jed on 11/9/13


Jed:

You wrote: While not all conservatives are christians, all christians ARE conservatives.

If you look through your Bible, you will not find the word conservative anywhere, but you WILL find the word liberal used in several places, almost always in a good context. Therefore, from the words of the Bible, all Christians are liberals.

You may argue that what society means by "liberal" is totally different than what the Bible means, but if you do that, you must admit that you're accepting society's meaning of the term over the Bible's use of it.
---StrongAxe on 11/9/13


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Also, anyone who claims there is a difference between politics and religion ----.

---Jed on 11/3/13

Jed, that may be the Glenn Beck mentality and Mormon philosophy, since in the whole state of Utah it is difficult to distinguish between politics and Mormonism.

JESUS said "MY kingdom is not of this world".

Mormons do believe, as they have stashed food for millions of their own to survive the end times, believe they alone will be the victors who inherit the earth. So yes, their religion is politically motivated.

WE however are not of this world, and OUR citizenship is in heaven RIGHT now as we speak.

"Keep your mind on things ABOVE and not below" is a commandment we are to obey.
---kathr4453 on 11/9/13


Where do you get YOUR news, Jed?

\\While not all conservatives are christians, all christians ARE conservatives.\\

Wrong again, Jed. Christians, like everybody else, are liberal in some ways and conservative in others.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/9/13


Yes Cluny, I do watch the real news and I am well aware of the religious persecution of Christians in the middle-east. I never denied that. I think its disgusting and I am outraged that our government funds and supports the people doing it. I still dont think that is any reason to minimalize the persecution of christians in the U.S.

As for your other statement. While not all conservatives are christians, all christians ARE conservatives.
---Jed on 11/8/13


\\Cluny, I have no idea where you get your news. But I do know that if you thought conservative Christian groups and churches weren't being persecuted by the IRS then you're not getting it at the right place.\\

Cultural and political conservatism is NOT the same thing as Christianity.

And we Orthodox have always been persecuted. Don't you know what's going on in Syria and the Middle East and what is happening to Christians there?

Churches are being burned and Christians killed and kidnapped for ransom.

That's REAL persecution.

Aren't you getting REAL news, Jed?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/8/13


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Just a thought. Aren't Christians supposed to expect persecution.

Plus, as I said before, being investigated is not the same thing as having tax exempt status changed. Is being investigated really persecution?
---Grandma on 11/8/13


Cluny, I have no idea where you get your news. But I do know that if you thought conservative Christian groups and churches weren't being persecuted by the IRS then you're not getting it at the right place.
---Jed on 11/7/13


\\What do you consider real news, Jed.

Obviously not what you're watching or reading, seeing you didn't even know that Christian Evangelical groups and churches were among the IRS targeting that began in 2009 which was exposed this year.\\

Tell me what you think I'm watching and reading, and what I should be doing.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/7/13


Yes, I did, but the IRS scandal was about political 501c4 groups, not c3's.

So you don't know then. Thanks.

What do you consider real news, Jed.

Obviously not what you're watching or reading, seeing you didn't even know that Christian Evangelical groups and churches were among the IRS targeting that began in 2009 which was exposed this year.
---Jed on 11/7/13


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The IRS did the same investigations during the Bush administration, only of Liberal groups.

Just because a church is investigated does not mean that church automatically loses its tax-exempt status. Yes, it's a royal hassle to be investigated, just as an individual audit is a hassle. Still doesn't mean the church did anything wrong, or that it's losing anything.
---Grandma on 11/7/13


\\Perhaps you didnt hear the scandle about the persecution of conservative groups (religious and non-religious) by the IRS earlier thos year?\\

Yes, I did, but the IRS scandal was about political 501c4 groups, not c3's. It was also about withholding or otherwise impeding their tax-exempt applications. It's wasn't about churches, which is the subject of this blog.

\\ You should watch the real news sometime.\\

What do you consider real news, Jed.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/6/13


Cluny, my last church was persecuted by the IRS because we invited the director of our local crisis pregnancy center to come speak about how they help young women avoid getting abortions and we also took a collection of diapers and money to donate to the center.

Perhaps you didnt hear the scandle about the persecution of conservative groups (religious and non-religious) by the IRS earlier thos year? You should watch the real news sometime.
---Jed on 11/6/13


\\cluny the IRS has investigating many who goes against "the grain". Many are subject of investigating just for being a tea partier.\\

Can you give one church that was investigated for being a "tea partier"?

It's CHURCHES that are being discussed here, remember.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/6/13


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Wrong Jed: The IRS has not kept up with policing churches in the recent past. Again, I've been sitting under Bible teaching for decades, and even when the preachers spoke against sin, the IRS did not step in to take away the church's tax exempt status.
---Grandma on 11/6/13


cluny the IRS has investigating many who goes against "the grain". Many are subject of investigating just for being a tea partier.
---shira4357 on 11/6/13



Will you?

All Saints Episcopal Church (not known for being fundamentalist) preached a sermon against the Iraq war, and was investigated by the IRS.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

---Cluny on 11/5/13


My point exactly. Were they preaching on a specific candidate or party? No. All they had to do was preach on controversial subject that they believed was wrong and they were accused of engaging in politics. Obviously it goes for both sides. My point is, how can a church be told not to preach politics when personal and religious beliefs are such a huge part of political issues.
---Jed on 11/6/13


\\All you have to do is preach against sin and you will be accused of engaging in politics by preaching conservatism.\\

Will you?

All Saints Episcopal Church (not known for being fundamentalist) preached a sermon against the Iraq war, and was investigated by the IRS.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/5/13


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I have been attending Bible teaching churches, where God's Word has been preached without any hesitation. I've never once heard any political candidate, or party brought up.
---Grandma on 11/4/13


You don't have to promote any particular candidate or party to have your tax exempt status questioned by the IRS. All you have to do is preach against sin and you will be accused of engaging in politics by preaching conservatism.
---Jed on 11/5/13


\\I have been attending Bible teaching churches, where God's Word has been preached without any hesitation. I've never once heard any political candidate, or party brought up.
---Grandma on 11/4/13\\

Same here, ever since I've been Orthodox.

OTOH, don't forget that being Messiah was the hottest political issue in Middle Eastern politics 2000 years ago.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/5/13


Grandma, as Christians, we are to act Christians . Especially a church needs to be part of the voting process. We had a senator to come to our church and he spoke concerning Christian faith, voting and keeping the faith. It is refreshing to know we have at least a few in government.
---Shira4368 on 11/5/13


If a preacher's focus is the Word of God, and teaching that Word, there is absolutely NO NEED to bring up a political candidate, party, or any other political entity.

However, if the preacher's focus is to preach against a political party, or issue, then the Word of God will be lost.

I have been attending Bible teaching churches, where God's Word has been preached without any hesitation. I've never once heard any political candidate, or party brought up.
---Grandma on 11/4/13


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Since religion and morality are a HUGE part of politics, how can a pastor even do his basic job without being accused of engaging in politics? Any pastor that teaches against alternative marriages, or abortion, or premarital relations would be accused of preaching conservatism. But to avoid these topics would make the church no church at all, but rather a social club! That's the problem! How can you tell a church they can't preach about morality and social issues because they may be engaging in politics? Telling folks how to live right and preaching against immoral living is one of the core functions of a church! Liberals want to shut up Christian churches that preach the Bible because they are effectively preaching conservatism.
---Jed on 11/4/13


"There is a big difference between preaching morality and directly supporting any political party or candidate."

I agree. Sadly, the IRS doesn't understand this because they have bullied churches and groups who merely supported or opposed issues, not candidates.

"Church through out the country own billions of dollars worth of property, but pay nothing towards the upkeep of a community infrastructure." How many non-Christian liberal groups do this?

"they don't have the right to do it on taxpayers dime. That's that law."

Radically leftist organizations like planned parenthood, not only receive tax exempt status, they even receive tax payer money!
---Jed on 11/4/13


Jed, for it, there is no difference. Politics is your religion. There is a big difference between preaching morality and directly supporting any political party or candidate.

Perhaps we should look at all charities and their tax exempt status. Church through out the country own billions of dollars worth of property, but pay nothing towards the upkeep of a community infrastructure.

In the end, the Church has the right to talk about whatever they want, but they don't have the right to do it on taxpayers dime. That's that law.
---NurseRobert on 11/4/13


Churches are prohibited from engaging in the political process, if they are to maintain non-profit status. This makes sense with respect to the First Amendment. If Congress gives preferential financial status to an organization that tries to influence government, this could be seen as government establishment of religion.

Jesus never taught us to preach politics. He clearly understood the separation of church and state - "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's - but unto God what is God's". He opposed Pharisees, not Caesar.

Churches that preach the word of God and allow their members to make their own political decisions based on that, can be the "salt of the earth" while not stepping on the IRS's toes.
---StrongAxe on 11/3/13


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Jed: There are many believers who think that churches should be taxed. I think they should pay taxes on the value of the property they own. I know for fact that the Archdiocese of Philadelphia bought up prime land throughout the five counties it serves decades ago. It sits, tax free, empty.

There are so many churches in the United States that are disgustingly palacial. St. Patrick's Cathedral, New York, The Mormon Tabernacle, Utah, The Crystal Cathedral, California, just to name a few. Go into any major city in the U.S. and look at the facility that is the main church. Philadelphia's is huge and ornate.
---Grandma on 11/3/13


NurseRoberts, why should church's be taxed and not other non-profit organizations?

Also, anyone who claims there is a difference between politics and religion doesn't know the meaning of one or both of those words.

How could a church possibly teach on moral issues such as abortion, marriage, and promiscuity without potentially being accused of engaging in politics? No matter what they teach about these issues they are taking either a conservative or liberal side. Basically you are saying that churches should not teach morality at all, even though they are non-profit.
---Jed on 11/3/13


Cluny, not all church's are, but if they clam tax exempt status they fall under that part of the code.

Jed, Congress DID pass that law. It was an amendment to the tax law in 1954 prohibiting 501(c)(3) organizations, which includes charities and churches, from engaging in any political campaign activity. The SCOTUS has also upheld this as Constitutional.

Furthermore the law does NOT prohibit the free expression of religion, unless your going to tell us that politics IS your religion.

In the end, churchs are free to talk about whatever they want, but they better be willing to give up their tax exempt status. Personally, I think churchs should be taxed.
---NurseRobert on 11/3/13


amen trav, amen. you got it right once again. I like the way you put things.
---shira4368 on 11/2/13


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A ministet can talk about political issues from the pulpit, but cannot support a candidate from the pulpit. If a church invites one candidate to speak, they would need to invite all candidates,
---KarenD on 11/2/13


I am more concerned with churches compromising the Gospel to preach things that are pleasing to man's ear such as, "Name it Claim it" in lieu of "God is a sovereign God and your salvation is secure based upon the finished work of Jesus Christ upon the cross at Calvary!"

Did someone say Joel Osteen???
---trey on 11/1/13


Jed and Shira: I am not disagreeing with either of you. The tax code says that any organization involved in any political realm is not eligible for tax exempt status, regardless if it is religious or education, or any other reason. That is why individual contributions to candidates or political parties are not tax deductible.

Churches can preach whatever they want to their hearts' content. No problem. If they choose to get political, they run the risk of being changed from tax exempt to non tax exempt status. Charitable organizations fall into both categories.

The tax code is not inhibiting the Constitutional rights of anyone. The Constitution does not guarantee anyone, or organization, tax exempt status.
---Grandma on 11/1/13


grandma, our churches still have free speech. free from interference from the government. grandma, Ive seen some of our politicians who are so-called preachers rant and rave and still never pay taxes. I can think of 2 now and I won't call their name because I would be labeled a racist of which I am not.
---shira4368 on 11/1/13


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Grandman, ANY law respecting religion is unconstitutional, end of story. If an organization is actually a non-profit organization, it should make no difference if they preach religion or not.
---Jed on 11/1/13


You try again, Jed. You said, "Congress has no constitutional right to pass a law forbidding a non-profit church from preaching politics." I never said that they passed such a law. I said that any church is free to preach politics to their hearts' content. They just give up their tax exempt status.

The churches have the freedom to preach anything they want. I never said anything to the contrary. The code, which was passed by Congress, states they are free to do that. All of the IRS code is written by Congress. The code states IF a church CHOOSES to preach politics, THEN, they forfeit tax exempt status.
---Grandma on 11/1/13


Try again Grandma. Congress did not pass that law. And such a law is in direct violation of the Constitution. Congress has no constitutional right to pass a law forbidding a non-profit church from preaching politics. There is little to no difference between politics and religion. Those who think you can separate politics from religion don't understand the meaning of one or both of those words.
---Jed on 10/31/13


Actually Jed Religions have to follow the basic laws of the land and are subject to some regulation.

This was required that some groups stated they were a religion to get around laws they did not like.
---Samuelbb7 on 10/31/13


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\\ all section 501(c)(3) (i.e. churches) organizations are absolutely prohibited from directly or indirectly participating in, or intervening in, any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for elective public office.\\

Not all churches are 501c3 corporations, Nurse Robert.

This law refers to a particular type of corporation, which may or may not be a church. I was involved in getting this status for our local community orchestra.

Donations to 501c3 corporation may be deducted from one's income when figuring out federal income tax. That's all.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/31/13


People look at the facts. The IRS does not even pass laws. Congress passes laws. The IRS enforces the tax code, which is created by Congress.

The Code says that if a church wants to remain tax exempt, they must abide by that code. If they want to preach politics, that's fine. Just be ready to give up tax exempt status.
---Grandma on 10/31/13


NurseRoberts, that code or any other law regarding religuon is illegal. The Constitution is the Supreme lae of our land, not the IRS codes. The condtitution is very clear on one thing, any lae concerning religion at all is illegal.
---Jed on 10/31/13


nurse Robert, the constitution cannot interfere our religious freedom. it don't matter to me about any code. Im talking constitution. some think the separation of church and state to mean you can not go on public property but in reality it means government cant make no law that would let them interfere with religious freedom.
---shira4368 on 10/30/13


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nurse Robert, the irs is a collection agency for the federal government. they should never have no other objection. it is a sad day when the irs controls our health and who gets medical treatment.
---shira4368 on 10/30/13


Shira, the IRS code is very clear on this matter. " all section 501(c)(3) (i.e. churches) organizations are absolutely prohibited from directly or indirectly participating in, or intervening in, any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for elective public office."
If they choose do to so, they can lose their tax exemption.

This does not stop a pastor from voiceing his opinion, but he cannot do it from the pulpit. If he wants to voice his opinion, he needs to do it outside of the church.
---NurseRobert on 10/30/13


gramma, do you think churches shouldn't bring politics to the pulpit? my pastor does not but I think it would be helpful from a biblical point of view and our right to vote. we should know what our politicians believe and if they believe God sent His Son to die for our sin. we should vote with God in mind.
---shira4368 on 10/28/13


Steveng...Please explain which churches have compromised with the IRS. I know our denomination has not.
---KarenD on 10/28/13


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The Gospel is the plan of salvation, as discussed in Romans, and other passages. Gospel means Good News.

I believe that if a church chooses to preach politics they should give up their non-profit status. Problem solved.
---Grandma on 10/28/13


Hi, Steven (c: I am not planning on my church compromising. But we are not perfect. So, even if someone in leadership compromised something, I would keep on doing the good I can with the ones who are obeying. We don't have formal membership, but we trust each other. What they do with money is not the main thing I am concerned about. There are churches who won't compromise, but > they are wrong about what they believe and how they do things!

By the way, what is an example of what you mean, Steven?
---Willie_c: on 10/28/13


Name one, Steveng.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/27/13


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