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What Is Grace

What is Grace? And why is it part in God's plan of salvation?

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 ---Ruth on 11/4/13
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Markv you are playing "word games" again. Sorry, I do not want to play here.

I know it really chapps your behind that salvation is FREE and the faith it takes to receive that FREE GIFT is also FREE having nothing to do with a depraved WILL or otherwise. ...There are no hidden strings attached to faith.
---kathr4453 on 11/15/13


Kathr 2: faith is a gift of God,
"For by grace you have been saved through faith, "and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God" not of works, lest anyone should boast"
Again the passage is saying with your answer that you are boasting, because you already had it, while others didn't.
---Mark_V. on 11/15/13


Kathr, you now say:
"Faith is something ANYONE can have."
No unsaved person has faith in Jesus Christ. It is a gift of God. Only believers in Christ have faith in Jesus Christ.
"No one can receive anything except what is given him from heaven" (John 3:27).
"So it depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy" (John 7:2). Paul says to you Kathr concerning faith,
"For who sees anything different in you? What have you that you that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if it were not a gift" (1 Cor. 4:7).
Your boasting you had it while others didn't.
---Mark_V. on 11/15/13


well first lets prove through scripture Jacob ACCEPTED that Love. I believe Jacob was chosen by God to be the Head of Earthly Israel. Jacob was renamed ISRAEL.

The elder will "serve" the younger.

Now all Christan has to do is prove those God (his words) doesn't love SERVE CHRISTAN.

God promised Abraham that his descendents would inherit land among other things. and this promise went to Jacob the PHYSICAL grandson of Abraham. The land or those promises could not be given to both sons, but ONE...having NOTHING to do with salvation.

---kathr4453 on 11/15/13


part 2

When God sent Moses to Pharaoh, it was all because of the promise God made to Abraham. Moses delivered God's CHOSEN PEOPLE ISRAEL out of the hands of Pharaoh who put them in bondage and hard labor, and brought them to the LAND promised.

We see however, those who came out of Israel did not all go into the Land that was Promised. So many of Jacobs physical descendants died in their sin in the wilderness.

Many also rebelled along the way.

Paul "warns us" of their sin, so we see, it takes more than LOVE from God to reach that end God has offered to ALL today, both Jew and Gentile.

---kathr4453 on 11/15/13




I didn't make your point Markv, I smashed it. Faith has NOTHING to do with man's will. Like I showed with Moses, Moses WILL did not part the sea, anymore than our WILL save ourselves. RECEIVING and BELIEVIND does. And that is done through faith not the WILL, deprived or not depraved.

Faith is something ANYONE can have. The FAITH of a CHILD is all that is required. Childlike faith. To enter as a little child... Nothing about what you believe Markv. You "believed" the WRONG person.

So your little game is UP, and your constant insults towards those you call FREE WILLERS saving themselves. The GIG is up...your lie is exposed, and no one here has to take your abuse ever again concern free will. FAITH is free.
---kathr4453 on 11/15/13


samuelbby - first and foremost, I have never denied that it was an act of God's love that save His people from their sins... "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8 - but was it to the whole world or only His elect?

However, you'll have to provide me with Scripture evidence that says according to you, "He offers that love to everyone". Between Jacob and Esau, did God say He "offered" His love to the twins and only Jacob "accepted" the "offer"???

Don't say things that are not written in the Bible, as that is bearing false witness and you're good at that.
---christan on 11/14/13


Kathr, thanks for making my point when you said:
"John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." Now who were those people born of God? Those who received Him, those were born of God. Spiritually born of God. Otherwise, they would not have believed in Him. They were not born again by the will of men, but of God.
Thank you for giving the passage. Now if you only understood it, but you don't.
---Mark_V. on 11/14/13


John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


We see here: "the will of man" yet nowhere says "the will of man" because it is dead in trespass and sin. It's just SIMPLY "the will of man.. period.

Yet you say man cannot receive Christ because the will of man is depraved? But God said nothing about the will of man depraved or NOT interfering with anyone's capacity to believe and receive.


Now, as far as CHOICE. Adam and Eve before they sinned did not have a will "dead in trespass and sin" BUT still made a choice based on faith in Satan's lie, and believed a LIE.

See your nonsense!
---kathr4453 on 11/14/13


my will was dead in trespasses and sins.
---Mark_V. on 11/13/13

YES you did Markv, right here.

Was Adams "will" ALIVE before sin entered the equation?

The opposite of dead is alive. is there even such a thing as a dead will and an alive will, or is there just THE WILL OF MAN?

John 1 declares there is the WILL OF MAN. it makes no distinction between it being a will that is dead in trespass and sins.

You are the one who has hooked up with Augustine's GNOSTICISM in this ridiculous statement about a mans WILL being free vs not free.

It's a stray man you created and it will blow over with a puff!
---kathr4453 on 11/14/13




MarkV,

What church denomination do you align yourself with?
---Marc on 11/14/13


Now MarkV you did just what I asked you not to do. You twisted and avoided the answer to my simple question.

I will ask you again you may get it right this time.

MarkV, did you ask/call upon God to save you or not?

I will help you with this. The answer is either YES or NO!
---Elder on 11/14/13


Kathr, stop making up things we do not say. here you said,
"Did Adam, before he sinned have free will? or as christen and markv say, their will DIED at the fall of Adam's sin?" Who said that? not either one of us. So stop lying for a change. Speak the Truth. You keep making up things in your mind. If you read my answers I said, no one has free will but God. Get it correct. No one. Only God is Autonomous, He answers to no one. Stop lying.
---Mark_V. on 11/14/13


Samuel, you didn't apologize so you ask more questions and give theories. you say,
"Yes Mark I believe that What GOD did for me was and is an act of love. But I believe He offers that love to everyone." God took you out of the path you were in, condemned already, heading to hell, why didn't He take everyone else out? He could take all of them out but doesn't. Can you explain that? I bet you cannot. So you create all this theories about God. God is God and does whatsoever He wills to do. Nothing can stop Him from just saving all humans. God has power over sinful man, Satan and nature. Everything has a purpose for God, even one more minute you live has a purpose. He controls the breath you take, without Him you can do nothing.
---Mark_V. on 11/14/13


Question:

Did Adam, before he sinned have free will? or as christen and markv say, their will DIED at the fall of Adam's sin?

So if their "will" died, that is, their intellect, reason, conscience, emotions, after the fall, what was the "will" OF MAN CAPABLE OF DOING BEFORE THE FALL?

So I really believe THIS needs to be hashed out before we go on to what free will is vs no free will.

SOOOOOOOO, we see too the WILL OF MAN, whether before or after the fall was/is STILL not qualified to make one BORN OG GOD.

so this free will no free will argument is STUPID and has NOTHING to do with faith to begin with.
---kathr4453 on 11/14/13


part 2

Ok they say, God had to rebirth them SO THAT they could believe, and that was because being dead in sin, the depraved WILL cannot not believe.

So, did God reactivate the "will" of man so that they could now believe? Yet scripture clearly states not by the WILL OF MAN, regardless of whether it's depraved or not.

So they are saying their "WILL" was re-birthed TO believe, where as the depraved "will" cannot believe.

Can anyone else see the nonsense of this?

They are claiming THEY SAVED THEMSELVES by having a re-birthed "WILL of man". ANOTHER lie.

FAITH has absolutely NOTHING to do with the WILL OF MAN period..depraved or not!
---kathr4453 on 11/14/13


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Grace is, "God's Rich's At Christ's Expense". Grace is an act that God has extended to each of us in the human race. Why? Because He loves us. It could be stated that Adam "blew it" and separated us all from a proper relationship with God, but because He loves us, He Christ came and met the requirements that will allow us to re-establish that relationship.

Romans 5:19 (KJV) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Because of Adam's sin, we were separated from God, and it was because of Christ's death and resurrection we can have a proper relationship with God which allows us access to heaven when we die a physical death.
---wivv on 11/14/13


Yes Mark I believe that What GOD did for me was and is an act of love. But I believe He offers that love to everyone.

Limited atonement means that He chooses some that He does not love and will torture them for all eternity. So that is exactly what you teach. It is not a lie.

Second you teach that GOD ordains everything that happens. So that means He causes all the evil that men do to others. From child rape to burning at the stake. According to your doctrine GOD makes men do this.

That is based on your own words.
---Samuelbb7 on 11/14/13


Samuel, just because you reject the word of God, you do not have to accuse me of saying the things you say I said. When I never said them:
"Christian MarkV You say GOD created men so He can torture some of them for all eternity. That he created humans so he could make them cause suffering to other humans and does not love or care for human beings."
You will never find the Truth when you speak lies about someone else. Don't you believe when God took you out of the path you were in, heading to hell, condemned already, was not an act of Love? He could have easily left you heading to hell. Do you not believe the death of Christ for your sins was an act of Love? You have to be completely blind not to know that.
---Mark_V. on 11/14/13


Hahaha.... seems the only one ranting and raving is someone screaming at the top of their voice that they have freewill.

How's speaking what the Bible say in Truth is "glorifying in one's own stupidity"? Seriously? For example, you keep screaming at the top of your voice of how you can go to Christ by your own freewill and when a simple verse like what Christ declared in John 6:44 speaks otherwise, you're called out as a liar.

So, who's being stupid and "glorifying in their own stupidity"? Heard of the pot calling the kettle black? I'm sure if you go to the dictionary to get the definition of "stupidity", you'll find "kathr4453" as the answer.

Cheers!
---christan on 11/14/13


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Elder, your looking for dirt instead of God's Truth. I gave my answer when I said,
""God never forced me He made me able to seek Him. For no one lost seeks after God." (Rom. 3:11)
MarkV"
While lost I was not able to seek after God, God had to make me able to respond to Christ. Simple. So you asked:
"Why would someone have to "seek" God if He has already "saved" them?" The elect were chosen before the foundation of the world. They are born dead in sin. The elect are born spiritually dead they need for God to make them spiritually alive. Because the "Carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the Law of God, Nor indeed can be" (Rom. 8:7).
---Mark_V. on 11/14/13


"God never forced me He made me able to seek Him. For no one lost seeks after God."
MarkV

Why would someone have to "seek" God if He has already "saved" them?

MarkV, did you ask/call upon God to save you or not?
This is a very simple question that can be answered simply. Try not to use your twisting exersizes in responding if you choose not to ignore the question.
---Elder on 11/14/13


Christian MarkV You say GOD created men so He can torture some of them for all eternity. That he created humans so he could make them cause suffering to other humans and does not love or care for human beings.

How can God be Omnipotent, and you are in control? If you are in control then He is not an omnipotent God.
MarkV

We are not in control. We are give a choice by the power of GOD. An omnipotent GOD who is love can give us a choice. Yet still me omnipotent.

Irrestible force is force. Limited atonement is hatred for humans.
---Samuelbb7 on 11/13/13


Grace Elder, if you are saved it is because of God's grace, not by anything you have done. You must believe that while lost people have spiritual ability. But you are wrong. We are told:
"But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Cor. 2:14).
We are also told,
"For the message of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God" (1 Cor. 1:18). And we are told:
"For the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be" (Rom. 8:7). The written Word.
---Mark_V. on 11/13/13


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So christan, stop glorying in your stupidity then. "False" humility is not becoming to anyone, especially trying to use it to RANT AND RAVE like a half wit and then trying to give God the Glory for your ranting.


OK:
Bill broke his leg today, therefore will not be playing in the basketball game tonight.

OR

THE REASON Bill will not be playing in the basketball game tonight is because he broke his leg.

"Let us REASON TOGETHER" God said.

But you do have to have even half a brain to do that!
---kathr4453 on 11/13/13


"How far did you get in school? the 4th grade."

"But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise, and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty, And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence." 1 Corinthians 1:27-29

O well, based on your judgement of my education level, I must then be a prime candidate destined for the kingdom of God, according to Paul's revelation.

Anyways, I'm "reputed as nothing" by God, so nothing you can say will cause further damage.
---christan on 11/13/13


Yes MarkV all scripture is directed to believers. But Peter is referring to all sinners which we all are. Romans 3.

Repentance for salvation is from GOD. Our difference is that you call it irresistible. The Bible says that the HOLY SPIRIT convicts the whole world.

You are saying only some people are judged? According to the Bible all people are judged. Those who choose to love sin are reserved to die in Hell Fire.

Those who Love GOD and Love Others by the power of the HOLY SPIRIT will live in Heaven with JESUS.

Your conclusion fails to recognize that not willing that any should perish is not the same as saying those I choose cannot perish. For the passage leaves open the fact that they can be destroyed.
---Samuelbb7 on 11/13/13


Shira, you say"
"I challenge all bloggers to ignore Markv." That is a big challenge since everyone wants to throw stones at me, for one reason and one reason only, because I tell them it was God who chose them, it was not the other way around. None of you like that one bit. You want to have one over God. Then say, I am getting desperate, desperate for what? To hear about the god you guys formed in your minds? Sorry, I do not look for that god. I preach the God of the Bible. Not someone who caters to men. When they let Him or when they give Him permission. That god is not Sovereign. The God of the Bible never, hear this, never stops being God.
---Mark_V. on 11/13/13


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Elder, like Kathr, you got it all backwards, you turn everything around to suit your theology. Here you say,
"V8 we are Saved by faith but you are "saved" by force." God never forced me Elder, He made me able to seek Him. For no one lost seeks after God.
Then say,"My God is big enough to deal with man's choice and is just in doing so." How can God be Omnipotent, and you are in control? If you are in control then He is not an omnipotent God.
Then say, " A god who forces something on someone is not just." God reached out and took you out of the path you were in, condemned, heading to hell and you say He is not Just? A person has to be completely lost to think that way.
---Mark_V. on 11/13/13


Marc://MarkV,

Out of curiosity, what church do you belong to?// That is one good information that Mark_V & Christan are yet to disclose(except I didn't see/read it when it was disclosed).
---Adetunji on 11/13/13


Samuel, the passages in (2 Peter 3:9) is correct. If you notice, first of all that Peter is talking to believers the "us" the "beloved" in (v. 3:8). Second, repentance for salvation comes from God. Third, the passage is not speaking about every single person in the world that He is waiting for since (v. 3:7) we are told some are reserved for the day of Judgment. So the passage is talking about believers and those who will be saved in the future. The "any" must refer to those whom the Lord has chosen and will call to complete the redeemed the "us" since the whole passage is about God's destroying the wicked.
There is no mystery to this passage when someone is looking for the Truth.
---Mark_V. on 11/13/13


MarkV,

Out of curiosity, what church do you belong to?
---Marc on 11/12/13


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You do know what THEREFORE is don't you christan. The THEREFORE's are very important in scripture and ALL sentence structure, especially to those who don't cherry pick and use half a thought and complete the rest with another verse not even in the same chapter or book.

How far did you get in school? the 4th grade.
---kathr4453 on 11/12/13


I challenge all bloggers to ignore Markv. He calls people names and insults, deny's it then does it again. he is getting desperate and I still will pray for him. Markv took comment about prayer with disgust but I was not making fun of him, I am truly praying for him.
---shira4368 on 11/12/13


Confused? Unless you can't understand that 44 comes before 45, then guess who's confused? It's like saying the number 2 is before 1 in sequence.

The point of the matter in John 6:44 and 45 is simple. 45 says "Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me." and if you have bothered to reason "come to Me" by referencing 44, that's how one can hear and learn from the Father.

The simple LOGIC (which freewill lacks) is because "they were drawn by the Father" first. To say that 44 happens is because of 45 is to twist God's work of grace on its head

Bottomline, one needs to go back to simple basic of 1,2,3... which comes first.
---christan on 11/12/13


Shira, don't pray for me to your god. Your god rules no one.
---Mark_V. on 11/12/13

AGAIN calling Shira a heathen unregenerate unsaved person.
This guy is a WACCO!

aren't we all getting tired of the froth coming out of his mouth daily?
---kathr4453 on 11/12/13


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"She fails to understand that when an individual is drawn by God he becomes spiritually alive to God together with Christ."
Mark_V.

MarkV "Drawing" is not Salvation!
You do a lot of talking with no understanding.
Eph 2:4-10 teaches man cannot provide his own Salvation by chosing to do good as you suppose to do.
V8 we are Saved by faith but you are "saved" by force.
My God is big enough to deal with man's choice and is just in doing so. A god who forces something on someone is not just. That is what Satan does.

How about you posting where the Bible uses the words Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient? Is this something else you can't answer?
---Elder on 11/12/13


MarkV doesn't understand the Doctrine of God's Salvation or the Old Testament ministry of the Holy Spirit.

He misunderstands the New Testament ministry also.

In the OT the Holy Spirit came upon man to impower him for service. David prayed, "Take not thy Holy Spirit from me."

In John 7 Jesus gave men the choice to come unto Him. He said, "The Holy Spirit was not yet given because He (Jesus) was not yet glorified."

Jesus was not glorified in the OT so the Holy Spirit was not yet given as promised in the NT.

The New Testament giving of the Holy Spirit was the earnest/downpayment/promise that believers were Saved as Jesus claimed they would be.

MarkV has missed it all!
---Elder on 11/12/13


Markv My GOD is also Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient, Holy, Righteous, and always right.

Which is why I do not say what He can do or not do. I go to the Bible and read what He says He will do and what He cares about and then follow what is written.


2Pe 3:9

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Your teachings make this verse and many others a lie. But I will not judge you. GOD alone is the true and righteous judge. The GOD of all the Earth will do right. He does not do or force others to do wrong.
---Samuelbb7 on 11/12/13


Shira, don't pray for me to your god. Your god rules no one. He is someone you guys created in you minds. A false god, who is helpless, knows nothing, can do nothing, is seating in heaven trolling his fingers. Satan and man are defeating him left and right. No Shira, that is not the God of the Bible. My God is Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient, Holy, Righteous, and always right.
"He doeth according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitant's of the earth: and none can stay His hand" (Dan 4:35). Man does not have to give Him permission, He does His will on all inhabitants of the earth. That is too much for you to understand.
---Mark_V. on 11/12/13


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markv, kathr has told you the truth. you just refuse to listen. she absolutely tells scripture in all she has posted for you to read. she also has given you the true meaning of scripture. you are still blind markv, I am praying for you.
---shira4368 on 11/12/13


She fails to understand that when an individual is drawn by God he becomes spiritually alive to God together with Christ. (Eph. 2:4-10).
A lot of talk with no understanding.

---Mark_V. on 11/12/13


yep, a lot of religious talk with NO scripture to back it up.

We become spiritually ALIVE that is given ETERNAL LIFE THROUGH Jesus Christ, not some fairy spirit reincarnating your old man.

God never crucified you together WITH CHRIST ( (Galatians 2:20) first before believing. If He did, there is nothing to put your faith in...you are already saved.

if perhaps Markv came THROUGH the DOOR, which is Christ, he wouldn't have to come up with some false religion to sneak through the door.
---kathr4453 on 11/12/13


Samuel, what you fail to understand is that Kathr does a lot of talk, mentions a lot of words from the Bible, never gives her point, Does not give Scripture to make her point. So talking a lot of religious talk means nothing. Anyone can talk religious talk all day long, that does not mean they know anything about Scripture. Here she says,
"Jesus continued to say that those who have been TAUGHT by the Father come to me. NOT those who have been ( your words) re-birthed or reincarnated, first to come to Him."
She fails to understand that when an individual is drawn by God he becomes spiritually alive to God together with Christ. (Eph. 2:4-10).
A lot of talk with no understanding.
---Mark_V. on 11/12/13


Kathr, you do not speak the Truth:
"Here is MORE profound TRUTH that no one had the Indwelling Holy Spirit that was promised until Jesus was GLORIFIED, that proof is given on the day of Pentecost, 10 days after Jesus ascension into heaven. So no rebirthing took place so people could come to Him."

Which is not true at all. First of all the new birth by the Spirit is not the indwelling of the Spirit. Second, many Old Testament saints were indwelled by the Spirit. The Spirit was clearly said to be in Joshua (Num. 27:18) The Spirit was said to be in Daniel (Dan. 4:8: 5:11-14) The Spirit was in Joseph (Gen. 41:38) The Spirit was in John the Baptist.
---Mark_V. on 11/12/13


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Here is MORE profound TRUTH that no one had the Indwelling Holy Spirit that was promised until Jesus was GLORIFIED, that proof is given on the day of Pentecost, 10 days after Jesus ascension into heaven. So no rebirthing took place so people could come to Him.

John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given, because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
---kathr4453 on 11/12/13


//But Jesus tells me, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."//
The problem here is Jesus wasn't speaking to you.(Rom 15:8)
John 6:41 The Jews then murmured at him,
43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
---michael_e on 11/11/13


Jesus continued to say that those who have been TAUGHT by the Father come to me. NOT those who have been ( your words) re-birthed or reincarnated, first to come to Him.

So yes Christan is totally confused. Faith comes by hearing, not by reincarnation.

So those who were on earth with Jesus when Jesus was on earth in the Flesh KNEW by what HE, that is JESUS was saying, because they were TAUGHT in the OT all those things that pointed to the coming messiah. 1) born of a virgin 2) look in John 7 for the next answer they say they were taught...clue...it's the name of a town.

Just a few clues here for the confused one.
---kathr4453 on 11/11/13


Grace is something freely given.We are saved by God's grace thru faith, not of works lest anyone should boast. So I am a product of God's grace. God has freely given me grace to endure certain hardships that others without grace can't comprehend.
---shira4368 on 11/11/13


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Many years ago Christianity Today put out an article Saying we are saved by works.

Many people were upset until they actually understand what the article was saying. That we are saved by the work of JESUS CHRIST.

MarkV try to understand what the person is saying instead of saying because you did not use these words you are wrong.

The Grace given us is part of the work of JESUS CHRIST. So what you wrote is correct but Kathr is looking at all the work of JESUS CHRIST not just part.

Different relgious traditions sometimes use words that others do not but they include the meaning of the others. In a true discussion we should strive not just to be right but to understand what the other is saying.
---Samuelbb7 on 11/11/13


Hmmmm.... are you sure you're saved? I ask is because I'm "confused" and that's because you said you chose Christ by your own freewill, meaning you decided that you wanted to be saved.

But Jesus tells me, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

Which then means, if you have a freewill, it goes against what Christ has declared above. How then can you be saved? Or are you pretending that you are saved? Since you can't even say that it was Christ who had to first draw you for you to believe in Him.

Think hard about it.
---christan on 11/11/13


MARKV, I said it was the FINISHED WORKS of CHRIST that we are saved by.

Here, let me give you a clue.

Shall we continue to SIN that grace may abound...GOD FORBID, for don't you KNOW that as many have been baptized into His death are freed from SIN.

HOW do you think you were FREED from SIN markv? NO ONE can FREE themselves from SIN and death.

Jesus death and resurrection life FREED us from SIN and DEATH making us a NEW CREATURE by that freeing. WE are freed when we too DIE to sin, when we identify with Jesus Death.

Read all of Romans 6 markv and if you just don't GET IT, you simply are still in your sin and lost as all get out!....

---kathr4453 on 11/11/13


Kathr, now you say many things and give (Rom. 6:3) as your answer and end your answer with:
"This is what HAPPENED at the CROSS Markv. THIS is what being saved BY GRACE is. There is salvation IN no other"
That is not what being saved by the Grace of God means. When a person is saved by Grace, it means he is not saved by his own works, but by God's grace.
"And if by Grace, then it is no longer of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace, otherwise work is no longer work." (Rom. 11:6).
---Mark_V. on 11/11/13


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Markv, so dishonest in how you TWIST and lie through your teeth, for what end?

As I have always said, that Markv refuses to hear, our faith in the FINISHED works of Christ, have given us the greatest gift of passing from death to life THROUGH Jesus Christ and our identification with Christ in death, dying to everything we were in Adam 1, where satan held that power of death, and still does over this fallen world. We through our identification with Jesus in death, are raised up together with Him , have now passed from death to life! now a NEW creature in the NEW creation where we will forever be eternally with The Lord.

This is what HAPPENED at the CROSS Markv. THIS is what being saved BY GRACE is. There is salvation IN no other.
---kathr4453 on 11/10/13


Kathr, when you talk a lot you really show how little you know about Salvation. Here just to argue you say,
"You are only saved because Jesus broke the power of DEATH satan held." You told us you were saved because you exercised your own free will and chose Christ. Now you changed your mind. The Bible tells us we are saved by Grace through faith.
---Mark_V. on 11/10/13


"...According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself.... And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." Ephesians 1:3-6,4:30

"Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" Hebrews 10:29

And the "covenant of grace" is bogus? Continue to blaspheme the Word to your detriment.
---christan on 11/10/13


I know how hard the truth must be for you Christan, seeing your bogus covenant of grace or Covenant Calvinism is in question here.

You are saved by the RESURRECTION of Jesus Christ. We live AFTER the CROSS. When Jesus came, in the flesh! He came to DIE on a cross for our sin. He came full of GRACE, that is ready to die for you and me. Moses did not.

You are only saved because Jesus broke the power of DEATH satan held. HIS blood, not animal blood! is why we are JUSTIFIED...JUSTIFIED by His Blood.

You really have no clue. I'm sorry you have been blinded. But you stay that way out of your own will to believe Calvinism, and not scripture.
---kathr4453 on 11/9/13


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Well, one can twist and turn with words all they want about grace is grace and that's because one has been embarrassed and exposed when they said things like "GRACE came after Moses, not before" and were proven wrong.

I didn't contradict you at all but it was the Word of God that has found you wanting in the lying of His work in salvation.

Bottomline, all of God's saints from the OT till the end of His time according to His will and purpose will only be saved by "grace through faith", first in God in the OT and Jesus Christ (the Word becoming flesh), in post-NT. No other ways.
---christan on 11/9/13


Wel Christan, again I'm not surprised by your comment. So, in the OT all one had to do was ASK to FIND GRACE in someone's EYES?

Finding grace in someone's eyes is not what John chapter 1 is talking about.

GRACE in the NT is opposite to Law. If perhaps you understood Galatians, you would know that NT GRACE is the CROSS. We are saved by what Jesus did at the Cross. It can be said another way

You are saved BY grace , that is , the FINISHED works of Christ on the cross through FAITH in The finished works of Christ. Do you know what FINISHED even means? The GIFT of righteousness came by Jesus Christ. The RIGHTEOUSNESS of the RISEN Christ is what WE must have TODAY.
---kathr4453 on 11/9/13


Did someone just said, "GRACE came after Moses, not before. Grace came by the PERSON of Jesus Christ."

And Jesus isn't God? "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." John 8:58

"But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord." Genesis 6:8, "Behold now, thy servant hath found grace in thy sight..." Lot in Genesis 19:19, "and I have sent to tell my lord, that I may find grace in thy sight." Jacob in Genesis 32:5

And you dare proclaim, "For those who SEE the real truth here." Really? How true isn't it when the Bible declares, "let God be true, but every man a liar".
---christan on 11/9/13


The first man Adam was a life giving SOUL, and the SOUL that sinneth, IT shall die.

So tell us, was it "God's Spirit" in Adam that died? And you say God put His Spirit back in a sinner, just like that?

The LAST man Adam IS that life giving SPIRIT.

Now tell us, Mr. Mormon, was the MAN Christ Jesus on earth at the time of Abel?

And since satan has the power of DEATH , Hebrews2 until Jesus took on the seed of Abraham, NO regrneration or NEW birth took place until Jesus rose again, BREAKING the power of death you claim some fairy went around sprinkling on the elect.

Sounds like a faith tale to me.
---kathr4453 on 11/9/13


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14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.


For those who SEE the real truth here. GRACE came after Moses, not before. Grace came by the PERSON of Jesus Christ.
---kathr4453 on 11/9/13


Paul says there is neither Jew nor Greek today in Christ (Gal 3:28) Since the grace of God is now offered freely on the merits of the death and resurrection of Christ, the righteousness of God comes by faith in Christ (Rom 3:21-24).
Instead of becoming part of, or replacing Israel, Paul announces a new creature, the boC
God freely justifies the ungodly by grace through faith in the gospel of Christ.
It's not by works (Tit 3:5). This makes it free and by grace (Rom 11:6). Our works are prohibited from salvation or it wouldn't be of grace, but debt (Rom 4:4).
The gospel of grace demands we lay aside our provisions, traditions, and good works and put our trust in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
---michael_e on 11/8/13


"BY FAITH Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh... But WITHOUT FAITH it is impossible to please him..." Hebrews 11:4,6

"FOR BY GRACE ARE YE SAVED THROUGH FAITH, and that not of yourselves: IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8,9

And your "true gospel" tells you Abel's faith is from within himself and not that of God? Great, keep your "true gospel" while I cling to the Word Of God.

How great is thy blindness!
---christan on 11/8/13


Ruth, believers are justified freely by His Grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus."
It is all an act of God on the sinner. Many who speak for free will, will change the meaning of Grace to mean works. The sinners own works. But they are wrong. Israel "pursuing the law of righteousness has not attained to the law of righteousness, why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by works of the law."
Those people want to make salvation a part of their own doing.
"And if by Grace then it is no longer of works, otherwise Grace is no longer Grace." (Rom. 11:6).
---Mark_V. on 11/8/13


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By grace we are given a righteous position, even without earning it. Our job description has changed. God gives us something that we could never attain on our own.
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. Rom 6:18
Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Phil 3:12
The power of grace isn't magnified by ungodly behavior, it's best manifested when it motivates us to do right.
Be wary of those who preach salvation by grace(Paul's gospel) and the put you back under the weak and beggarly law system. OT. Matt, Mk, Luke, John and the first part of Acts
---michael_e on 11/8/13


Christan, nowhere does scripture say Abel was gifted with faith first to obey. Scripture teaches by his obedience he demonstrated faith.

His faith was in the promised redeemer who would one day take waway the sin of the world. Abel, offering a blood sacrifice demonstrated by his actions...( please learn to read scripture correctly) he was putting his faith in another and not himself.

You CANNOT be gifted with Faith in Jesus Christ BEFORE ever hearing of Jesus Christ.

OUR faith is in a PERSON, not faith in faith, as your crazy doctrine is a first cousin to WOF doctrine.

you really have missed the point of James that Faith without works IS A DEAD FAITH. Your kind of faith is a dead faith Christan.
---kathr4453 on 11/8/13


\\ Or how else would Abel have known that he was to bring before God a blood sacrifice? \\

Did he?

And did God actually require blood sacrifices at this point?

If you read the Torah carefully, you will see that there are rules for offering agricultural produce as well, not just animals.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/8/13


Sadly, Cain didn't receive the special grace that Abel received, which was God's gift of faith. Or how else would Abel have known that he was to bring before God a blood sacrifice? How did Abel even know that he was a sinner before God?

Did Scripture even say Abel chose to accept God's gift of faith? Or for the matter that Cain rejected the gift of faith from God?

Only deluded souls would see what is not even written nor mentioned in the Bible that God offered Abel and Cain salvation. And that Abel chose and Cain rejected. How foolish!

Now that's what is called total depravity of the Truth.
---christan on 11/8/13


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"What is Grace?"
The Father's Divine Influence upon the heart of man that brings him into a place spiritually & a condition mentally to embrace the Fathers faith for salvation, rather than the futility of his own vain carnal efforts.
"Why is it part in God's plan of salvation?"
Because His Grace is essential for the salvation of man.
---Josef on 11/8/13


4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death, and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

So we see with both Abel and Enoch is was not just some random thing some call "unmerited grace".

Cain could have also received this grace, if Cain took that second chance God gave him and obeyed.
---kathr4453 on 11/8/13


Grace is simply to describe God's workings.

Even to unbelievers His work of common grace is there for all to see, "...for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust" Matthew 5:45. However "common grace" is not saving grace.

"Saving grace" does not happen to everyone of mankind but to only those whom the "Father has given to the Son" from eternity. That's why it's called "special grace" and Ephesians 2:8,9 speaks of this,"For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
---christan on 11/7/13


Ruth, Grace "is the manifestation of God's love and mercy toward sinful men (2Cor. 6:9: Tit. 2:11). God's essential nature includes both love (1 John 4:16) manifested in mercy and grace, and holiness (1 John 1:5) manifested in righteous judgment of sin. As for the plan of salvation
Because Under the Old Covenant Law God demanded righteousness.
Under the everlasting Covenant He bestows righteousness (Rom. 3:21-24: 8:3,4: Gal. 2:16).
Law connects with Moses and works.
Grace ties in with Christ and faith (John 1:17: Rom. 10:4-10). Under Law, obedience brings blessings (Deut. 28:1-14) Under Grace blessings is bestowed as a free gift. When obedience does not respond to love, grace teaches and disciplines (Tit. 2:11,12).
---Mark_V. on 11/6/13


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Grace is the favor of God, and it is through Grace that we are saved.
The question for the believer, "Is Gods favor merited or unmerited?"

The greatest teaching tool for a teacher is an example. Noah is an example, an example used in the New Testament of one who was saved by God.

Read the story of Noah in (Genesis 6) and find out if there was a reason God saved Noah.
If you find God saved him for no reason, Gods Grace is unmerited.
If you discover God had a reason to save Noah, Gods Grace is merited.

But if you really want to know the Truth as to whether Gods love is conditional or unconditional, look to the words of Jesus Christ in (John 14:21).
---David on 11/5/13


What is Grace. Gods' Grace, It is your ability to use the power of God for free. That is Gods' Grace. The funny part is you don't even know your using it for your selves desires, are you don't care. That is the sad part.
---Bryan on 11/5/13


Grace is favor you have not earned and do not deserve. Grace/favor can't be bought or it can't be traded or bargained for with God. We cannot expect to receive God's grace because there is nothing we can do to stake a claim to it or entitled to it. Grace is God's unmerited favor given to humankind because His son Christ died on the cross and we believe Christ is the Son of God who died for our sins. Everything we do toward God must go through His son Jesus for we have no right to anything from God,do not have direct contact with God,it's only when we believe in Jesus,do we touch God and receive His unmerited favor.
---Darlene_1 on 11/4/13


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