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Were Old Testament Saved

Were the old testament saints saved in a different manner than the new testament saints? In other words, were the people that lived before the time of Christ and his death upon the cross saved saved by the same process as people today? Please give scripture.

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 ---trey on 11/7/13
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John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad.
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
John 1:3 All things were made by him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
---micha9344 on 1/22/14


"Kathr, you argue points of doctrine that you do not understand. You have said that the Holy Spirit did not indwelled anyone in the Old Testament"
MarkV

Kather you are totally correct, as you know.

The Holy Spirit came upon believers. He did not indwell them. MarkV should know that He did not indwell believers until Acts 2. There are other things he should know also but he doesn't.

David prayed, "Lord take not thy Holy Spirit from me." That is because the Holy Spirit came upon him not into him.

Today the Holy Spirit doesn't leave believers. Believers quench His working in their lives by their choice to obey sin.
---Elder on 1/22/14


micha, do you believe this? Do you understand it. Does christen? Does Markv? It appears you all don't. If perhaps you did, this silly conversation would not be taking place.



Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
---kathr4453 on 1/22/14


Obviously some think that Jesus was stuck in a corner closet somewhere awaiting His birth so that He could actually do something important.
So, Kathr, you do believe this statement then?
---micha9344 on 1/22/14


we become members of the Body of Christ by faith + nothing Abraham received eternal life the same way the Church age believer does, we all came in the same way. Adam, Abel, Seth, Noah, and all the way up to Abraham, came into a right relationship with God, by faith + sacrifice. They couldnt approach God without the sacrifice. Coming up to the Cross even in Christs earthly ministry, Jesus never taught salvation by faith and faith alone. They were still to adhere to the Law of Moses, they also had the added responsibility of repentance and water baptism, + faith. But faith alone wouldnt cut it. Even in the early chapters of Acts, it wasnt just faith alone. They had to repent and be baptized, and that was a requirement.
---michael_e on 1/22/14




Their faith was in the coming redeemer. Their faith however was completed only after Jesus Sacrifice. TODAY we live on this side of Calvary. Today we are now COMPLETE IN HIM the moment we are saved.

No one could enter through the veil, that is Heaven itself until Jesus Shed His Blood and died on the cross. He entered FIRST through His own blood. At the time of Jesus crucifixion, the veil in the temple was rent, signifying the way INTO THE HOLY OF HOLIES had been opened.

TODAY the moment we are saved we are seated with Christ in Heavenly Places IN CHRIST, because our old man is crucified with Christ.

TODAY we experience the fullness of Christ because we now live in the Risen Christ, where as OT Saints did not.
---kathr4453 on 1/22/14


Faith was and is the only way to salvation
---lionel on 1/22/14


Kathr, you argue points of doctrine that you do not understand. You have said that the Holy Spirit did not indwelled anyone in the Old Testament, and He did. Now you say there was no Jesus Christ in the Old Testament so no one can be saved by having faith in Him in the Old Testament. That only after He came can a person have faith in Christ. Old Testament believers had faith in the coming of Christ, New testament believers in the Christ who came. The gospel of Jesus was first preached in (Gen. 3:15). Christ has always been around. He is God and so is the Holy Spirit. You should stop arguing for no good reason other then to confuse many.
---Mark_V. on 1/22/14


Obviously some think that Jesus was stuck in a corner closet somewhere awaiting His birth so that He could actually do something important.
Such is not the case.

---micha9344 on 1/21/14


Really? Jesus death and resurrection was not important? may want to review the verses just posted previously. It appears Jesus birth death and resurrection was most important.

and then we have this:

1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul, the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

The Last ADAM is the MAN Christ Jesus.
---kathr4453 on 1/21/14


Obviously some think that Jesus was stuck in a corner closet somewhere awaiting His birth so that He could actually do something important.
Such is not the case.
---micha9344 on 1/21/14




Hebrews 9:13-15

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
---kathr4453 on 1/21/14


Here's a classic definition of a fool. First they say, "But where does it say Noah found GRACE in His Son Jesus Christ?"

Is Genesis 6:8 contradicting who Jesus Christ is when it says, "But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord." No where in the OT is the name Jesus Christ ever mentioned and yet through the NT, we're taught that the lamb without blemish was indeed pointing to Christ. And isn't Christ God?

We're told, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God."

Doesn't Genesis 6:8 then include the Father, Son and Spirit? Talk about "doing away with the Trinity"!
---christan on 1/21/14


That's not what these FOOLS are sayin Christan. But since you can't read or comprehend the conversation at hand, you may be the fool you are referring to.
---kathr4453 on 1/19/14


Brother MarkV, they cannot see that Christ was actually the sacrifice Abel, Noah, Abraham etc, made to God. It was in that lamb without blemish, which we are revealed was actually Jesus Christ. Basically, the lamb was the foreshadow of the coming Messiah, Jesus Christ.

These fools say that Christ didn't bleed for the OT saints at Calvary is to say the OT saints faith in that sacrifice to God was futile and that they had another way to heaven, which is erroneous to say the least.

Their problem is their unbelief in the doctrine of predestination and Christ declaration, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."
---christan on 1/19/14


Hosea 13:4 - Yet I am the Lord thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me,

Isaiah 43:11 - I even I , am the Lord, and beside me there no saviour.

Titus 2:13 - looking for that blessed hope , and the glorious appearing of the great God and our saviour Jesus Christ,
---RichardC on 1/19/14


Markv, you always do away with the trinity when it challenges your false doctrine.

Again let me say, God the Father, nor the Holy Spirit died on a cross. Yet the Holy Spirit is also God.

There is only ONE mediator between God and man and it is the MAN Christ Jesus.

You again deny the importance of the Word being made flesh, taking our sin upon Him, and taking the wrath and judgement and death upon Himself you deserved.

You live on the wrong side of the cross Markv.
---kathr4453 on 1/19/14


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Kathr, I keep saying the same thing you just don't understand. Here you say,
"But where does it say Noah found GRACE in His Son Jesus Christ?" Don't you understand who Christ is? Jesus Christ is God. You try to divide God in that mixed up mind of yours for the sole purpose of arguing every statement that I make.
Think about it, Jesus Christ had not come in the flesh, but He has always been God.
---Mark_V. on 1/19/14


Kathr, Grace is being gracious. God has been gracious all through History. We deserve nothing from God for sinning against Him. He was gracious to choose every individual He chose to do His works, and even today He is gracious enough to us who do not deserve salvation. No one deserves salvation, all deserve death. He was gracious enough to send His Son, He did not have to, we did not deserve Him, again we deserved death.
That is why we are told,
"But God, who is rich with mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, "even when we were dead in trespasses," made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved) and raised up together,.." (Eph. 2:4-6).
---Mark_V. on 1/19/14


It is sad that some here do not understand Hebrew , especially Hebrews 10. These simple minded folks FAIL to understand the verses: "WE ENTER A NEW AND LIVING WAY, THROUGH THE VEIL, THAT IS TO SAY HIS FLESH."

They actually believe OT saints were made PERFECT in Christ, yet argue and wrestle with scripture that we are "COMPLETE IN HIM".

The reason these simple minded people argue is they don't understand the blood of bulls and goats never made anyone perfect, or complete IN HIM, until Jesus LITERALLY DIED AND ROSE AGAIN, shedding His own blood.

Those who EAT "HIS" FLESH AND DRINK "HIS" BLOOD , just goes over their heads.

It's sad.
---kathr4453 on 1/19/14


Some give the impression they're saved by grace, yet say things like, "OT saints were saved just as we, but they were not crucified with Christ". Obviously they don`t understand grace.

OT saints believed God and isn't Christ God? The fact they believed in the promises of God by faith is a clear indication that the final revelation of the lamb, who's Christ, meant that His death at Calvary fulfilled God's promised of eternal life in and through Him,

"Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory, that your faith and hope might be in God." 1Peter 1: 20,21
---christan on 1/18/14


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Marks, The GRACE of God is not the same as being gracious. The GRACE of God is that he gave his only begotten Son. That is the problem with your doctrine of Grace. Your's needs no Jesus.

GRACE is the life of Christ IN YOU. Just as Galatians clearly teaches. And your examples have no actual verses even using the word grace or graciously.

Hebrews 10 also say those who want to remain under law have insulted the spirit of grace, meaning CHRIST's finished Works.

No GRACE is the CROSS ..the FINISHED works of Christ, where to day we are buried with Him in death making it possible for YOU to die to sin. Romans 6.
---kathr4453 on 1/18/14


Markv, So now you're a DISPENSATIONALISTS claiming in "the dispensation of conscience" Noah found grace in God's eyes. But where does it say Noah found GRACE in His Son Jesus Christ? Noah was already said to be JUST. Many are said in scripture to have found grace in someone's eyes. So the word can have other meanings. But finding grace in someone's eyes, is not the same as how the NT uses the word GRACE.

When you understand the difference between GRACE vs LAW, as taught in Galatians as well as Romans and Hebrews 10 as well as other NT books, NT GRACE CAN be insulted and rejected. Just as YOU have insulted the finished works of Christ, leaning on Calvin and not Christ alone.
---kathr4453 on 1/18/14


Kathr, You say,
"Grace is the cross."
Everything God does for us is by grace. When Adam and Eve sinned, God "graciously intervened?" promised a Redeemer, and made immediate provision for their acceptance before Him in their sinful condition? In the dispensation of conscious Noah found "grace" in the sight of God (Gen. 6:8), God "graciously" intervened, saving Noah and his family. And when man rebelled by building the tower of Babel. God did not destroy the creation, but continued to work in the hearts of men like Abraham and Melchizedek by extending a "gracious promise" that He would bless the whole world through Abraham. You don't understand Grace.
---Mark_V. on 1/18/14


Samuel, yes OT saints were saved just as we, but they were not crucified with Christ and raised up a new creature before Jesus died and rose again. When they died, they went to a place called Abraham's bosom. TODAY when we die we immediately go to be with The Lord. So there are differences. They obeyed through the flesh, we today walk in the Spirit of the Risen life of the risen Christ...the one who died and rose again 2000 years ago.

They could not say or live by Galatians 2:20-21. Today under GRACE as the verse clearly stated we do. Their Sinful flesh, still in the OT, even though they looked forward to the cross, was not sanctified once and for all THROUGH the Body of Christ. This is why Hebrews 10 is so amazing TODAY.
---kathr4453 on 1/17/14


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No kathyr Markv is correct the Old Testament saints were saved by Grace through faith but in the coming Messiah.

Their sacrifices looked forward to JESUS. Abel was looking at JESUS when he sacrificed a lamb. For JESUS is the lamb of GOD slain from the foundation of the world.

There is and always has been only one way of salvation. Through JESUS CHIRST.
---Samuelbb7 on 1/17/14


OT saints were saved through faith, but not by grace. Grace is the cross. Today we are saved by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, on the resurrection side of the cross. We are justified by His Blood, and saved BY HIS RISEN LIFE. OT saints could not be crucified with Christ and raised up a new creature. OT were also under law until FAITH came, that is faith in His death and resurrection, leading to life now under grace! not law. OT did not live by grace and law together. Nor can we today.

Also the blood of bulls and goats could not wash away sin, but only REMINDED them of sin year after year. TODAY under grace our sin is done away IN Christ , once and for all. That's what His death and resurrection accomplished, called grace.
---kathr4453 on 1/17/14


Bro. Trey, thank you so much for making that point clear. Saints in the Old Testament were saved the same way as in the New Testament, by Grace through faith. God chose individual people through time to bring the gospel truth to us now. While the gospel was not made very clear then, it is clear now. No one has an excuse.
---Mark_V. on 1/16/14


The blood of animals did not go for the blood of Christ!

Heb10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Only the blood of Christ takes away sin.

Heb10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
---trey on 1/14/14


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Yes.salvation for old testament saints was same for new testament saints.only that the blood of animals went for the blood of Christ. Hebrews 9:11-16
---Moses on 1/14/14


Yes JESUS is the root but the Olive Tree is Israel.

The Branches represented those broken off. Israel is brought into the New Covenant which is established with Israel.
Heb 8:8
---Samuelbb7 on 12/6/13

True...the Wild Olives are the 10 "divorced" nations of the 12 composing the "whole" house of Israel.
The Olive tree joined to a same bearer of Olive fruit.

Judah/Benjamin joined with these composes the completed house...again.
Heb 8:8. Matt 10:6/15:24. The two "sticks" of Eze.
---Trav on 12/9/13


Trav, you say:
"Here are two of the thousands you hide from....also prophecied." Nothing to hide from.
"These Servant "Israel" took flesh in the Person of Jesus Christ He was called out of Egypt" (Matt. 2:15) quoting from (Hos. 11:1) He sucessfully faced the same temptations that Israel failed to indure (Matt. 4). And since Jesus Christ
is Himself the new Israel, all those united to Him by faith are also incorporated into the Israel of God (Gal. 6:16). He is the the True Vine, the classic Old Testament image for Israel, and we are His branches (John 15). Because Christ is the living cornerstone of God's house, those who joined to Him become living stones in that House (1 Peter 2:4,5).
---Mark_V. on 12/7/13


Yes JESUS is the root but the Olive Tree is Israel.

The Branches represented those broken off. Israel is brought into the New Covenant which is established with Israel.

Hbr 8:8
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
---Samuelbb7 on 12/6/13


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Gentiles are not joined to Israel, for Israel is not the Root. Gentiles are joined with Israel, as natural and wild branches, to the same Root, Jesus Christ.
Some Israelite branches needed pruning, and some wild branches were to be grafted in.
---micha9344 on 12/6/13


Gentiles are joined to Israel we are grafted in.

Rom 11:16-24

And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree, Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
---Samuellb7 on 12/6/13


Trav, all the prophest support my view. Jesus read aloud Isaiah 61:1,2)....
---Mark_V. on 12/3/13

As I stated....you avoid Israel.... as prophecied. The entire writings of Isaiah are to Israel. Here are two of the thousands you hide from....also prophecied.
Isa 59:21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD, My spirit that is upon thee, my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

Isa 60:14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee, all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet,...
---Trav on 12/4/13


Trav, all the prophest support my view. Jesus read aloud Isaiah 61:1,2) that Scripture had been fulfilled in His hearers' presence (Luke 4:18,19) He was Himself the promised Servant upon whom God's Spirit rested. As the New Israel, Jesus perfectly fulfilled the demands of the Law.
The New Covenant that Jeremiah anticipated was established in His blood (Luke 22:20). Jesus fulfilled God's original design for human holiness, thereby personally embodying the New Israel for which the prophets looked. Jesus Christ is Himself the New Israel, all those united to Him by faith are also incorporated into the Israel of God (Gal. 6:16). He is the true Vine, the classic Old Testament image for Israel, and we are His branches (John 15).
---Mark_V. on 12/3/13


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Trav, you now say:
I've never agreed with you and probably never will.

Mark: I only circle around everything not mentioning Jesus Christ.
---Mark_V. on 12/1/13

Wow.
As you state. Your circle.....
You would rather state ten thousand mark truths to one prophets truth.
Joh 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

Eze_17:2 Son of man, put forth a riddle, and speak a parable unto the house of Israel,
Mar 4:24 And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.
---Trav on 12/3/13


Trav, you now say:
"Your point is you think I agree with you??<>I've never agreed with you and probably never will. Sometimes you circle around nipping and bump into a prophet/prophecy and realize truth."
You did agree, not all Israel will be saved. I told you that already. I only circle around everything not mentioning Jesus Christ. You cannot escape the Only Way into heaven. No matter how many prophets you put down, or how many Old Testament passages you provide. The whole of Scripture is about the Messiah, our Savior and the only Way to the Kingdom of God. Anyone who has died without Christ is heading to hell for sentencing. Everyone who does not have faith in Jesus Christ, is condemned already.
---Mark_V. on 12/1/13


Praise the LORD and give Glory to GOD. I have read where both Kathr and MarkV agreed with me.

Agape to you both and I hope ya'll had a Blessed Thanksgiving.
---Samuelbb7 on 11/29/13


Kahtr, both become one. A Jew and a Gentile who have faith become one new person in Christ. All you want to do is argue. Here is another day, and more arguing. I will rejoice when God makes a new women of you. But until then, I will continue to hear your arguments. They are one new person in Christ or one new man. Nothing to break your neck over.
---Mark_V. on 11/24/13

Yea, I'll praise God the day you can read and comprehend.

You just AGREED and reiterated what I said.......so maybe YOU are the problem Markv, over talking others and always wanting to argue, when the only arguing is in your own destroyed mind.

Anyone can go back and read that fact.
---kathr4453 on 11/29/13


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Trav, since you now agree not all Israel will be saved, now you say:
"It is available to both Nth and Sth Houses of Israel, instead of just Judah/Benjamin. Two sticks of Eze."

---Mark_V. on 11/28/13

Your point is you think I agree with you??<>I've never agreed with you and probably never will. Sometimes you circle around nipping and bump into a prophet/prophecy and realize truth.
Your witness is one to be avoided.
Eze 37:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, ....

Eze 37:28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.
---Trav on 11/29/13


Trav, since you now agree not all Israel will be saved, now you say:
"It is available to both Nth and Sth Houses of Israel, instead of just Judah/Benjamin. Two sticks of Eze."
"The many" from those two, only those who believe by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and turn from their sins. Because the only way is through Christ Jesus. No one goes to heaven in any other way.
---Mark_V. on 11/28/13


Trav, you put down:
"Rom_11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: ..."
but did not put down the rest of what it says:

---Mark_V. on 11/25/13

There wasn't room and it wasn't necessary, as per the word..."many".
Christ says "many" or few not all.
Mat_22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Mat_26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

It is available to both Nth and Sth Houses of Israel, instead of just Judah/Benjamin. Two sticks of Eze.

It also says this...which is notable and observable.....
Mat_24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
---Trav on 11/25/13


Trav, you put down:
"Rom_11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: ..."
but did not put down the rest of what it says:
"The Deliverer wil come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob, For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins"
Quote from (Isa. 59:20-21)
"The Redeemer will come to Zion and those who turn from tresgression in Jacob..." this pertains to only those who turn from their tresgressions, not the one who don't.
Yes, all of those who turn from their tresgressions will be saved. The Covenant is for them only. Not those who reject God and don't turn.
---Mark_V. on 11/25/13


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Kahtr, both become one. A Jew and a Gentile who have faith become one new person in Christ. All you want to do is argue. Here is another day, and more arguing. I will rejoice when God makes a new women of you. But until then, I will continue to hear your arguments. They are one new person in Christ or one new man. Nothing to break your neck over.
---Mark_V. on 11/24/13


Trav - have mercy upon the whole of Israel - are your saying all of Israel is Going to be saved ?
---RICHARDC on 11/22/13

Scripture says many. But in a divided house both divisions, reunited as a whole have an equal opportunity.
Heb_9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many,.....
Researched carefully in Romans,below for instance it is not excluding the Northern House.
Judah/Benjamin retained the married name of Israel. The Northern House divorced....did not but, are nevertheless still of Israel.
By the death of the lord....redeemed. Freed from the first marriage by death and sacrifice.
Heb 8.

Rom_11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: ...
---Trav on 11/23/13


Ephesians 2:15

15 ---- for to make in himself of twain ONE NEW MAN so making peace,

The verse says "ONE NEW MAN" not just "one", as Markv likes to add and subtract words to suit his own understanding. The ONE NEW MAN is also referred to as the NEW CREATURE we are again told in Galatians is neither male or female! Jew or gentile...

But we see on another blog Markv doesn't understand IN CHRIST anyway, or that it was God's plan before the foundation of the world to have a unique company of saints who would be joint heirs with Christ called His Body. That totally separate from Israel, are these specific promises to, taking out of this world both Jew and gentile and making IN HIM ONE NEW MAN.
---kathr4453 on 11/23/13


...But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
... who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us,
...
reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross,...
---Samuelbb7 on 11/21/13

Be scripturally correct, post where your statements/conclusions/doctrines are found in prophecy.
Here are the easy ones.

Eze_11:16 ... Although I have cast them far off among the heathen,

Amo 7:8 the LORD said unto me, Amos, what seest thou? I said, A plumbline. Then said the Lord, Behold, I will set a plumbline in the midst of my people Israel:....

Jer 31:31/Heb 8:8/ Eze 37.....the wall removing covenant for the two houses divided.
---Trav on 11/23/13


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Trav - Trying to understand were your coming from ? - have mercy upon the whole of Israel - are your saying all of Israel is Going to be saved ?

Romans 11:5 - Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of Grace,

Joel 2:32 - And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on his name of the Lord shall be delivered, for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance , as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord has Called,
---RICHARDC on 11/22/13


Samuel, what you said is very true. At the crucifixion, the veil came down. When the early Jewish Church expanded into the Roman world, this question was finally asked:
"Is our Messiah only for us? What about the Gentiles" Then unexpectedly, God's Spirit fell on non-Jews (Acts 10:44,45). Slowly narrowness and prejudice broke down. A Jewish council of believers convened in Jerusalem to discuss "the Jew Gentile" issue (Acts 15) Finally the Spirit of the Lord broke through the fog and revealed what had been accomplished by the Messiah. The wall had come down. It was demolished by the passion of Christ at the cross. That is why Paul explains that in (Eph. 2:11-16). Jews and Gentiles have become one. That is very true.
---Mark_V. on 11/22/13


Trav, the nation of Israel as a whole has not been redeemed.
.... "a veil lies on their heart" .
---Mark_V. on 11/20/13

Again every prophet is against you and you against them.
They win the debate should be obvious to most.

You and your disciple rail and attempt-teach when it would be wiser to quietly learn/discern.

The blindness/veil would be on Judeans/Judah/Jews....the Lost Sheep of the House...the other 10 nations have/are accepting their lord.....as they find/seek/accept truth about him. If not found, they will be judged by the laws in their heart. Heb 8:10.
Eze_39:25 .. and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name,
---Trav on 11/22/13


Samuel, continue reading ephesians where you left off. Paul wasn't finished yet. God In Christ has created one NEW MAN who is neither Jew or Gentile.

The problem in Galatia was the Jews came in with that same idea that Gentiles were now Israel and insisted on things that belonged to Israel alone.

The NEW MAN is exactly that one New Man...a brand spanking new new thing.
---kathr4453 on 11/21/13


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Gentiles become part of Israel by being Born Again.


Eph 2:11-16
Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands,

That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us,

...
And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross,...
---Samuelbb7 on 11/21/13


Trav, the nation of Israel as a whole has not been redeemed. Only individuals who have faith in Christ and His works. Here is the Written Word
"Therefore, since we have such hope we use great boldness of speech-unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains" unlifed in the reading of the Old Testament, because "the veil is taken away in Christ" But even to this day, when Moses is read, "a veil lies on their heart" Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord the veil is taken away." (2 Cor. 12-16).
The Word of God.
---Mark_V. on 11/20/13


You want so bad to believe that salvation is only for the Jews .....
---Mark_V. on 11/18/13

Which has never once been said/posted by me.
Who can withstand your weightiest (lie), or opinions? Hosea perhaps? Your animosity is with scripture, only point to what you avoid. For sheep who search.....not stop.
Do you stand/prohibit the sheep from scripture?

Hos 13:9 O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself, but in me is thine help.
Hos 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave, I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues, O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.
Gal_4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
---Trav on 11/19/13


Trav, Hebrews 8:10) is happening to those from Israel right now, to all who come to Christ. And not all Israel is Israel, if it were then all of the flesh would be going to heaven, and none without Christ are going to heaven. In fact many already died in their sins and will never see heaven. There is only one way to heaven and that is through Christ Jesus, for no other blood can cleanse the sins of any human being. You want so bad to believe that salvation is only for the Jews but you are so wrong, salvation is open to all those who have faith in Jesus Christ.
---Mark_V. on 11/18/13


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Romans 2:29 - But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly, ...
Romans 9:6 For they are not all Israel , Which are of Israel,

( Tray: if Spiritual Israel can not be proven ? What do you do with these verses ? )
---RICHARDC on 11/17/13

Where do you see "spiritual Israel" in the verses?
To be Israel inwardly, would be to have the laws in the heart. See Heb 8:10/Jer 31:33 which addresses this.
Rom 9:7 explains verse 9:6 intent.
Isaac is called....not Ishmael.
Esau is not called even though a twin brother to Jacob.
The Nth House of Israel divorced put away was Israel and at the same time not by being divorced. They are the Lost Sheep of Matt 10:6 and 15:24.
Deu_32:9 For the LORD'S portion ....
---Trav on 11/18/13


Tray - Scripture will not Provide witness ?

Romans 2:28 - For he is not a Jew, Which is one outwardly , neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh,
Romans 2:29 - But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly, and the circumcision is that of the Heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter, whose praise is not of men, but of God,

Romans 9:6 - Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect, For they are not all Israel , Which are of Israel,

( Tray: if Spiritual Israel can not be proven ? What do you do with these verses ? )
---RICHARDC on 11/17/13


Trav, so you answer Richard with:
"Eze 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live,.. then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD".... .....
---Mark_V. on 11/15/13

Only post what you and your young disciple warwick avoid, which is "all Israel". The scriptures are written by Israel, for and too Israel.

Lost Sheep of Israel which are the Nth House are mainly who are addressed in the New Testament. Reference point Heb 8:8-10, Matt 10:6/15:24 and hundreds of others.

GOD is creator of all. All can appeal to the creator.
The avoided scriptural subject here, is Israel and their place, as wife/divorcee/widow/virgin/bride to be.
---Trav on 11/17/13


Trav, so you answer Richard with:
"Eze 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD" The problem with that passage is that none of it has happen, for the Lord said "And performed it" past tense. God does put His spirit in those He saves, the spiritual Israel of God. According to Ez. 36, the passages contained conditions, they continued to reject God's Son. God spoke about "Israel My elect" (Isa. 45:4) and in the New Testament Paul also called true believers in the Messiah, both Jews and Gentiles "the elect of God" (Col. 3:11,12).
---Mark_V. on 11/15/13


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There is a Spiritual Israel :

Galatains 6:15 - For in Christ Jesus neither cumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new Creature..
---RICHARDC on 11/12/13

Realize this is taught but, scripture will not provide witness for the statement through any prophet,apostle or Christ. Rather we will find the opposite.
For instance:
Eze 37:13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
Eze 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.
---Trav on 11/13/13


There is a Spiritual Israel :

Galatains 6:15 - For in Christ Jesus neither cumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new Creature,
Galatains 6:16 - And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the israel of God'

( Another verse dealing with this is 1 Corinthains 10:18 - I have not done much work on this - maybe some one else has more info )
---RICHARDC on 11/12/13


---for He shall save His people from their sins."

And we know today that not everyone is "His people", according to Christ's teachings.

---christan on 11/9/13

Yes HIS PEOPLE were the Jews. do not go to the Gentiles, but to Israel. a very clear distinction between HIS PEOPLE and Gentiles who were not HIS PEOPLE.

Christan bases this verse on a People who he claims were already His Elect before the foundation of the world people who weren't even people yet. Even HIS PEOPLE Israel rejected Him. That's WHY the Gospel was given to the Gentiles AFTER. To the Jew FIRST and Then to the Gentiles.

Let "MY PEOPLE" GO, God said to gentiles concerning HIS PEOPLE ISRAEL.
---kathr4453 on 11/12/13


Spirit of God was very specific when ministering to Joseph, saying, "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call His name Jesus: for He shall save His people from their sins."
---christan on 11/9/13

Psa_130:8 he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities.
Zec_10:8 I will hiss for them, and gather them, for I have redeemed them:they shall increase......
Luk_1:68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel, for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
Mat_10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat_15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Gal_4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
---Trav on 11/12/13


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1Cliff, you said:
"Mark V, If Adam had been obedient he wouldn't have lost the opportunity to live forever! It had nothing to do with faith except the faith in God's promise!" It was faith in God promise. No matter how you look at it. Those who are save today also have faith in God's promises. Obedience is an action of someone who already has faith. If he didn't have faith, he would not obey. But salvation does not come by obedience, but by the Grace of God through faith. Not through obedience.
We obey because we are saved.
---Mark_V. on 11/10/13


"Before the fall in Eden, Adam was a SON OF GOD. After the fall, Adam was a son of MAN." faithforlife

I hope you do have the verse for us and for your sake, is from the Holy Bible that declares what you have said above.

For we are told in Scriptures, "For to which of the angels did He ever say: You are My Son, Today I have begotten You? And again: I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son? ...but it was He who said to Him: You are My Son, Today I have begotten You." Hebrews 1:5,5:5

Adam was no begotten of the Father, he was made from dust. Christ was not made from dust but begotten of the Father. God has only one Son, Christ.
---christan on 11/10/13


The people in O.T. times were serving only PARTIAL GOD (Jehovah).

Leave O.T. worshipers to God,
..... leave the O.T. worshipers to God.
Pay attention to what GOD says.
---faithforfaith on 11/8/13

Triple F, you contradict yourself with an oxymoronic statement above. Listen, to GOD, but just in part.
Act_24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
1Co_14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
2Pe_3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets,...
Act_10:43 To him give all the prophets witness,....
---Trav on 11/10/13


Christian, Them-pre advent
Us- post advent!
---1st_cliff on 11/9/13


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It is VERY possible to get "hung up" on words (human nature, the "flesh").

SEMANTICS is far more important than we think, "SANCTIFIED" is the goal.

"Salvation" is the JESUS METHOD of "redemption" in order to achieve the sanctification of "sons of men"...that is what gives us the ABILITY to become a SON OF GOD.

In the O.T., God explicitly tells us that He is not a man (men are in need of redemption/sanctification, God does not need redemption.....because there is no darkness or corruption in Him.....that is why the rest of the verse also says that He is NOT a SON OF MAN.

Before the fall in Eden, Adam was a SON OF GOD. After the fall, Adam was a son of MAN.
---faithforfaith on 11/9/13


From the time of Adam, all who believe God's word, by faith, are "SAVED". OT believers (prior to the coming of Jesus Christ) were saved by receiving & believing God's promise. (Hebrews 11)

NT believers also are saved, by faith, based upon God's Word, i.e., the Lord Jesus Christ. (John 1, 3:16)
---Leon on 11/9/13


Mark V, If Adam had been obedient he wouldn't have lost the opportunity to live forever! It had nothing to do with faith except the faith in God's promise!
Today it's the same ,obedience (not to the law) but in believing His promise (Jn.3.16)
Repentance an baptism are the public affirmation of your sincerity!
---1st_cliff on 11/9/13


Brother MarkV in Christ, forgive me if I seem to be correcting you to what 1stCliff said "Christ paid the price for them and us."

My question to 1stCliff would be, what do you mean by "Christ paid the price for them and us." Is he referring to a particular group or everyone of mankind? Which includes those Christ never died for or the Father never gave to Him.

The Spirit of God was very specific when ministering to Joseph, saying, "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call His name Jesus: for He shall save His people from their sins."

And we know today that not everyone is "His people", according to Christ's teachings.
---christan on 11/9/13


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1Cliff, I agree with the first part of your statement,
"Christ paid the price for them and us."
But you added:
" Obedience is the key!
Matt.24.13, "he who stands firm to the end will be saved"

Obedience is not the key, "faith" is the key. No one is saved by keeping the law perfect, no one can. And those who stand firm to the end stand firm because of God. As part of His saving work, God secures our perseverance. True believes are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation (1 Peter 1:5) The guarantee of our perseverance is build into the New Covenant: "I will put My fear in their hearts so that they will not depart from Me" (Jer. 32:40).
---Mark_V. on 11/8/13


To all those "religionists" who are hung up on this word "saved" the fate of all mankind from pre-flood to today is the same IE everlasting life by resurrection!
Christ paid the price for them and us.
Obedience is the key!
Matt.24.13, "he who stands firm to the end will be saved"
---1st_cliff on 11/8/13


We become members of the BoC by faith + nothing. Abraham became the Friend of God and his righteousness because of his faith + nothing. This was done by believing what God said. From Adam, Abel, Seth, Noah, and all the way up to Abraham, they came into a right relationship with God, by faith + sacrifice. They couldnt approach God without the sacrifice. Coming up to the Cross even in Christs earthly ministry, Jesus never taught the concept of salvation by faith. They were still to adhere to the Law of Moses, they had the responsibility of repentance and water baptism, + their faith. Faith alone wouldnt cut it. Even in early Acts, it wasnt just faith and faith alone. They had to repent and be baptized, and that was a requirement.
---michael_e on 11/8/13


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