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Do Angels Have Free Wills

Do angels have free wills?

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 ---Geraldine on 11/12/13
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Hi Kathr,

Just thought I would do a little checking and I was right. In referring to Websters 1828 American Dictionary of the English language (These are the same definitions of the English words the translators used in translating the KJV) the word ELECT means chosen, set apart, selected, taken by preference from among two or more, chosen as the object of mercy, selected or designated to eternal life, predestinated in the divine counsels.

Seems to me Mr. Webster has more biblical understanding than you.

The truth is I love how you make up stuff to prove your point whether it's scripture or definitions of words.
---trey on 11/19/13


"you are the one who keeps pushing your agenda" shira4368

Again and again, saith the pot to the kettle. And what do you think you and your cohorts are doing everyday here? Planting daisies and roses? Don't you too have your "own agendas"?

This is the dictionary's definition of HYPOCRISY - "a pretense of having a virtuous character, moral or religious beliefs or principles, etc., that one does not really possess" - sounds familiar?

Maybe you should learn to stick to the facts when you want to explain yourself with regards to Scriptures. Getting personal is when you are lost for words to the reasons presented by others.
---christan on 11/19/13


God knew it would be 40 years but still allowed Israel the choice of 2-3 years.

---Scott1 on 11/19/13
exactly, and it was because of their own disobedience. We see in the end, the land that was ALREADY THEIRS, many still failed to enter in. But even without those 20 and older God STILL KEPT His promise and those who entered fulfilled that promise. the ones who failed to enter in NO WAY altered Gods plan or purpose of the Promise land.
---kathr4453 on 11/19/13


markv, you are the one who keeps pushing your agenda. I really try hard to show new Christians you are false. There are those on CN who may be confused and my objective is to expose false teachers and false doctrine.
---shira4368 on 11/19/13


//Do you not believe that God can see the beginning and the end of His plan?//

yes that is the soveign part aka He knows the free will of man and adjust to it even though he knows what we were are going to choice and knows His plan.

//If He can see, how can anyone change it? God would have to change His plan every time man makes a decision.//

He does but he is not surprised by it (that is the reactionary and eternal nature of God at the same time). How long did God want (not plan) Israel to be in the desert for the Exodus approx. 2-3 years. How long did they 40 years. God knew it would be 40 years but still allowed Israel the choice of 2-3 years.
---Scott1 on 11/19/13




Shira, you want to complain so much that you see Satan everywhere. There is no Satan in my answer. Check it again. Stop to think before you answer. And only answer for the Truth. You need to change your intentions.
---Mark_V. on 11/19/13


Christan, please REREAD Galatians! concerning salvation and Abraham. I believe Paul uses Sarah and Hagar ....Isaac and Ishmael in the "ABRAHAM part" of salvation. He NEVER uses Jacob and Esau EVER. And Galatians is all about GRACE. So either your definition of GRACE is wrong, using Jacob and Esau, or you just don't understand GRACE to begin with.

If you can see the LIGHT Christan, just one little ray of LIGHT in the truth of Galatians not once mentioning Jacob , then this argument has not been for nothing...for you anyway.

But this argument has been used to edify others listening in to be good Bereans and check the scriptures for them selves.
---kathr4453 on 11/19/13


Shira, read God's Word,
"God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord" (1 Cor. 1:9). God is the one who calls individuals into the fellowship of His Son. God.
Then it says,
"but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God." Again, those who are called by God. And (v.30) "But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God and righteousness and sanctification and redemption, that, as it is written, He who glories, let him glory in the Lord"
You see, it is all of God. Nowhere is one ask to exercise their free wills so that all those things can happen.
---Mark_V. on 11/19/13


If God's promise to Abraham was not specifically about salvation (not that I'm denouncing the fact that the nation Israel came from his loins and the many other promises and blessings God fulfilled in the times of the OT), then our time debating about the Holy Bible is an utter waste of time.

Why? What are you and everyone seeking for? Eternal life or the very things of this world that will make your life comfortable? Cut the story short, why does one seek for Jesus Christ? Isn't it because of eternal life? Isn't the promise of God rooted in His love for Christ that the Christian will have eternal life?

Maybe it's worth being a fourth grader after all.
---christan on 11/18/13


markv, you now have contradicted your own beliefs. you say we have the will to follow satan. wow, EVERYONE, please read the preceding post by markv claiming free will to follow satan but not to be saved.
---shira4368 on 11/18/13




Samuel, just because you do not understand you don't have to build up many assumptions as you do. Here you say:
"I like Scott1's question. Is doing sin the will of GOD?"
When you sin, is it God's will makes you sin or is it your will that makes you sin? It's your will that makes you sin. God knows everytime you sin and will sin. Everything has been taken into account in the plan of God. God knows all things. Why is it so hard for you to understand? It is pretty simple, God is God, sinful man is sinful man. Why do you think they called sinful man? Because it is their nature to sin. It is the nature of God to be Holy. "It is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God who shows mercy"
---Mark_V. on 11/18/13


He was not delivered yet. But believes that Jesus will. Othewise he would not have continued to say that with the flesh he served the law of sin.
---Mark_V. on 11/16/13

OK. Then Paul is saying that he wishes to serve GOD but has not been delivered yet. Which I can understand as being true. But then Paul is choosing to accept the deliverance of JESUS. Not that GOD was forcing him.

I like Scott1's question. Is doing sin the will of GOD?

Sin is transgression of the Law of GOD. See First John.
---Samuelbb7 on 11/18/13


Scott 1, you statements are clearly not true. Nothing in Scripture on what you said:
" Thus you have to have a free will to trimuph God's will. God's plan of salvation will still win because he knows our free will which makes him soverign and truly powerful"
How can God be Almighty God, omnipotent, meaning all powerful, and man able to triump God's will? How can giving man free will make God Sovereign? Do you not believe that God can see the beginning and the end of His plan? If He can see, how can anyone change it? God would have to change His plan every time man makes a decision. Man is responsible for his sin. God knows what sins you will commit and when you will commit them. Nothing is unknown to an Omniscient God.
---Mark_V. on 11/18/13


//"Why would anyone be called into the high court of God to answer for doing his will?" when you sin are you doing His will or yours? You sin because you are a sinner. Hello? //

Mark you missed the question. If you do not have a will of your own (which you have stated). Then everything that happens is according to God's will. Thus how can man be held responsible for sinning if he is following the will of God. Sin is turning your back on God or placing your will above God's will. Thus you have to have a free will to trimuph God's will. God's plan of salvation will still win because he knows our free will which makes him soverign and truly powerful.
---Scott1 on 11/18/13


Kathr, you also say,
"Christan just doesn't get it. He uses Jacob and Esau as God's FREE WILL to choose who he wants to save, and who he wants to send to hell...."
Why don't you understand? One reason only. Have you not read the passages that followed?
"What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? "Certainly not!" For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion" And to make things clear for just you Kathr, he then says,
"So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, "but of God who shows mercy" (Rom. 9:14-16).
---Mark_V. on 11/18/13


kathr4453 on 11/18/13
It still doesn't matter Christan about LOVE/HATE because the choice was not about salvation. It was about the promise God made to Abraham.
(Funny!)

To be perfectly honest, had Rebecca just told Isaac what The Lord said to her, (maybe all that family drama could have been avoided.)
(Forget the fact that it was God will!)
Peace
---TheSeg on 11/18/13


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It still doesn't matter Christan about LOVE/HATE because the choice was not about salvation. It was about the promise God made to Abraham.

If perhaps you were to read Genesis , you would see it's all right there in black and white. You may also want to read the blessings ISAAC said over both his sons. To be perfectly honest, had Rebecca just told Isaac what The Lord said to her, maybe all that family drama could have been avoided. After all God told Abraham to listen to Sarah concerning Hagar and Ishmael, ( seeing Ishmael was also Abraham's first born not inheriting the INHERITANCE).
Again no one is saved by any BIRTHRIGHT.
---kathr4453 on 11/18/13


Kathr, when you speak of God's love you should check the Bible closely instead of making many assumptions. When God asked the Israelites to destroy all the other nations, including children and infants, was that an act of love for the children and infants? I don't think so. It was and act of love for Israel. When He permitted the angel of death to kill the firstborn of Egypt, the children and infants and adults while God hardened Pharaoh's heart so he would refuse to let Israel go, was that an act of love? He loves His creation yet He allows children to be born where there is no water, nor food to eat. So God does not treat everyone the same. God has His a purpose for what He does. No one should question His actions.
---Mark_V. on 11/18/13


"Love and hate" with God in the context of the Holy Bible is rooted in His Holiness. Does God "love/hate"? - "As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." - it says so He does.

The sobering Truth, does His "love/hate" has anything to do with what Jacob and Esau did? Romans 9:11 answers that explicitly, NO! Unconditional!

To which Paul declares later in verse 21, "Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"

Is this man's level of understanding God's "love/hate"? I'm sure you can't believe it, let alone understand. Unless...
---christan on 11/17/13


Matthew 6:24
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other, or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Israel could not have two masters either.

God uses two words, love , hate. One is the opposite of the other. With God, there is no shades of gray like "LIKE".
God does not use the word HATE like humans do. And God's LOVE is not a human love either.

Stop bringing God down to your level Christan, and accusing God of acting on human emotions. WHEN you grasp that truth, you too will stop all this HATE mongering on line you say comes from God within you giving you an excuse to hate according to your own depraved understanding.
---kathr4453 on 11/17/13


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The words used in the passage you presented means, "Preferred." God preferred Jacob's action to Esau's.
Mal_1:3 And I hated Esau, (and laid his mountains and his heritage waste) for the dragons of the wilderness.
Act_10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

This is not speaking of an emotional love or hate. God is Love. He cannot hate. He so loved the world....
1Jn_2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

If He could hate this would contradict these and other verses.
And these!
Rev_2:6,Rev_2:15 which thing I hate.
Peace
---TheSeg on 11/17/13


Christan just doesn't get it. He uses Jacob and Esau as God's FREE WILL to choose who he wants to save, and who he wants to send to hell....

When God made a Covenent with Abraham, Called the Abrahamic Covenant, no such words of God to Abraham ever stated in the Abrahamic Covenant, that "through you Abraham" I have an elect for heaven and an elect for hell.

This is NOT the Abrahamic Covenant. The GOD of ABRAHAM, ISAAC AND JACOB, clarifies that only through the three did Jesus Christ the Messiah come that was promised.

Not ABRAHAM, ISHMAEL AND his son,

NOT, ABRAHAM, ISAAC AND ESAU either, as some wish, stating the BIRTHRIGHT belonged to Esau to begin with.
---kathr4453 on 11/17/13


A birthright even with twins, belongs to the firstborn. This family birthright, starting with Abraham and God's covenant with Abraham had nothing to do with a birthright FOR salvation. There is no such thing as a BIRTHRIGHT for salvation.

But God told Rebecca, that in her womb WAS two nations yes....Nations. But only one of those NATIONS would be given the BIRTHRIGHT of the INHERITANCE PROMISED TO ABRAHAM.. That NATION IS ISRAEL. Esau is the NATION of EDOM.

Christan, YOU have no "birthright" whatsoever staking any claim on "salvation" on promises going to Jacob. No salvation BEGAN with Jacob. No does Paul EVER teach such things. FIND "Jacob" in the book of Galatians, the book on GRACE + nothing.
---kathr4453 on 11/17/13


Christan has been told over and over yet continues desperately to claim his salvation on a birthright belonging to someone else, promises given to someone else. The promises given to Jacob have nothing to do with you Christan.

The CHURCH is not built upon JACOB. It never was, and never will be. The CHURCH is built upon the AposteS and prophets, Jesus being the CHIEF CORNERSTONE, not Jacob.

Jacob didn't die for your sin.

When God uses love hate, HE is expressing, just like Jesus said YOU must "hate" your mother and father. But we know God never commanded anyone to HATE their mother and father LITERALLY as humans hate. It means to prefer one over the other. We are to prefer Christ over anyone ALWAYS in our lives.
---kathr453 on 11/17/13


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"Apostle Paul said, " Phil.2:12... Our choice to obey (though small) is used by God to complement His GIANT work of our Salvation." Adetunji

It seems you very good in choosing to leave verses out that are rather significant to the context and wedgie your own freewill theology in between. Quoting Philippians 2:12 and leaving out verse 13 is nothing short of being mischievous and wicked. And that's because you want people to think that it was up to them to "fear and tremble".

This is what verse 13 says, "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."... meaning the "fear and trembling" is 100% the work of God and not you!
---christan on 11/16/13


God had to make a choice because of His promise to Abraham? Did God owe Abraham something? Where in the world do people like this even get their understanding of "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."?

In context to Paul's Scripture in Romans 9:13, just two verse prior to him mentioning verse 13, Paul explicitly said, "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth" - explicitly citing election which is rooted in God's love.

Abraham wasn't even mentioned in Romans 9, not that he wasn't an elect of God. Now you know why i say you worship a beggarly god?
---christan on 11/16/13


"The words used in the passage you presented means, "Preferred." God preferred Jacob's action to Esau's." Elder

Say what? Now you're simply adding on to the Word of God! "Preferred" equates to God's love? What a load of crap you are spewing.

You want to use "preferred" is because you are supporting freewill, which is not what Romans 9:13 is even close to. To say that God "preferred" Jacob to Esau is to say that Jacob did something that God saw and liked as compared to Esau.

And that cannot be true, if you care to read verse 11.
---christan on 11/16/13


"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."
christan

If we could only get you to research Scripture and word meanings you would soon find what this means.

This is not speaking of an emotional love or hate. God is Love. He cannot hate. He so loved the world.... If He could hate this would contradict these and other verses.

The words used in the passage you presented means, "Preferred." God preferred Jacob's action to Esau's.

God had emotional agape love and provided salvation for them both. The difference was Esau rejected God's instructions and way to receive the provided salvation.
---Elder on 11/16/13


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Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

Apparently many parents are not doing this for our world today is full of evil. This is the choice of the parents. Many, if not most, parents are relying on the philosophies of man to raise their children. Remember the likes of Dr. Spock who change the parenting world in just a few short years? Even christian parents took to his teachings.

It was the free will of these parents to teach man's way instead of God's way of rearing children.
---Steveng on 11/16/13


In scripture "HOLY angels" also using the word "elect angels" all meaning the same thing.

This is what we were predestined to " become" We were not already HOLY, / elect or are we angels, or did we preexisted.
We are partakers of HIS holiness through faith. We through identification with Jesus in death and resurrection life BECOME HOLY or Elect not before. Therefore when scripture speaks of us as the Elect, it is only Christ's election / holiness that we become partakers of through salvation, not before. So the CAUSE and EFFECT was and is ONLY in Christ. You are not Holy, Jesus is? God sees you ONLY in Christ.
---kathr4453 on 11/16/13


Or Trey, elect can mean nothing more than another word for Holy, having nothing whatsoever with God picking and choosing.

Jesus is also called elect, yet has nothing to do with being restrained from sinning.
---kathr4453 on 11/16/13


I believe, unlike Satan, who is a reprobate angel there are a group of elect angles that the Lord restrains from sin.
1Tim5:21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.
---trey on 11/16/13


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Samuel, you say that Jesus delivered Paul from the condition he was in if we follow the chapter. Can you lead us to that verse where it say Jesus delivered Paul? What I read is that he is first speaking about himself:
"O wretched man that I am who will deliver me from this body of death? (Then he says,) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord' "So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin" He was not delivered yet. But believes that Jesus will. Othewise he would not have continued to say that with the flesh he served the law of sin.
---Mark_V. on 11/16/13


Christan, whoever said that is absolutely correct. Angels were never given an opportunity for redemption, humans were. If you can't see that as truth, something more sinister is in your false doctrine we need to continue to tease out of you.

Since you and Markv "scoff" at Hebrews 2, and have revealed some frightening comments concerning Hebrews 2, should anyone here REALLY be concerned at all with any OPINION you have concerning one's soul? faith or belief? I sure don't.

I am concerned for yours and Marks though.
---kathr4453 on 11/16/13


This verse precedes, "As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." meaning, yes, in your own words, God felt like loving Jacob instead of Esau. Reasons only known to Him! You have a problem?
---christan on 11/15/13

Again your ignorance here Christan. A choice had to be made between Jacob and Esau , concerning a promise God made to Abraham. God's choice was not based on your definition of FREE WILL, just because nonsense, but on the fact that God's choice was determined by promises he had already made.

So again, your free will nonsense flies out the window.

That verse has NOTHING to do with God just for NO reason saying....oh I think I will choose to save this one...just because I feel like it.
---kathr4453 on 11/16/13


It took being Born Again to give him power to do right.
Samuel

For the good that I would (I do not:) but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Samuel what, am I missing something here?

for to will is present with me, but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Arent you guys saying you suffer from the same delusion?

Now if I do that I would not, (it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.)
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

But the evil which I would not, that I do!
How is that freewill?
Peace
---TheSeg on 11/16/13


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Our dear Apostle Paul said, " Phil.2:12 ....., work out your own salvation with fear & trembling". God made man the "head-of-the-earth". God humbly involves man in all He wills to do for man after making him head, though God does the GIGANTIC part, HE gives man the opportunity to do an INFINITESIMAL part. For example, Ex.14:16,21,26,27, it was not Moses' power that opened the Red Sea but God used Moses insignificant effort & obedience to complement His will. Our choice to obey (though small) is used by God to complement His GIANT work of our Salvation.
---Adetunji on 11/16/13


Mark that is not what that means. Sorry, you don't get to twist this to YOUR specific meanings.

God gave us the free will to choose to follow him or not. Matt.
---NurseRobert on 11/16/13


Paul said.

Rom 7:18-21
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me, but how to perform that which is good I find not.
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Paul says he had a will to do good. But could not. It took JESUS to deliver him. See the rest of the Chapter.

So he had the will as in free will but no power. It took being Born Again to give him power to do right.
---Samuelbb7 on 11/15/13


Here's a classic case of contradiction by one who first say, "All of us, including Satan, including even the Holy Angels, are limited in what we are able to do." but immediately contradicts himself saying, "But at least humans have free will to choose among the options that are available to us."

If angels and satan are limited, do you actually believe the man is the only creature God created that's special? If so, why did He declare, "And ALL THE INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH ARE REPUTED AS NOTHING: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" Daniel 4:35

You're special?
---christan on 11/15/13


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Some are stupider than a fourth grader. How does faith in Jesus Christ even "bypassed the CROSS all together in his false doctrine of "his perversion of Grace""???

"Just Because God felt like it", you have a problem with unconditional election even when God declared, "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth" Romans 11:9

This verse precedes, "As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." meaning, yes, in your own words, God felt like loving Jacob instead of Esau. Reasons only known to Him! You have a problem?
---christan on 11/15/13


AND to have the audacity to say God GAVE His Son to die a horrible death FOR NO CAUSE, or JUST BECAUSE, having no "cause and effect" for the reason of our salvation is the most horrible heritic teaching there is.

But I have called Markv out on this many times stating he claims he was saved APART from Jesus death and resurrection, that he has bypassed the CROSS all together in his false doctrine of "his perversion of Grace" he claims is based on God's good humor on saving Markv..."Just Because God felt like it".
---kathr4453 on 11/15/13


Calvinism is very cleaver in their choice of words. Take the word "unbeliever". Now take the word "LOST" or "Sinner". You can't be an UNBELIEVER unless you first have been given the Gospel to believe or not believe. So in the real sense of the word "UNBELIEVER" is one who has CHOSEN not to believe. He WON'T believe. "WON'T" does not mean "CAN'T", everyone knows this.


But no where does scripture say a sinner or lost person "cannot" believe.

Staying ahead of Gnosticism one blog at a time

Put your thinking caps on people.
---kathr4453 on 11/15/13


So I take it, you guys have already proven it!
You cant!

Scott1s James_1:14, for God tempts no one.
Gen_6:5, (man) was only evil continually!
He not tempting you, you already are!

kathr, I am not the one saying "I have freewill to choose", you are! So, if youre free to choose like you guys (say you are), then choose good over evil. Clearly! Gods not tempting you, nor holding back!

Adetunji, A man has a choice to make in keeping God/Jesus' commandments.
And yet none of you keep them!

Elder, if God chose man to sin or a Christian to disobey...
Please explain to me how it became God fault, (you are) a sinner or evil?
God chose man in spite of it!
Peace
---TheSeg on 11/15/13


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//Free will is the ability to make a choice without a cause//

Then God does not have free will
For God so loved (cause) he gave (choice) his only son. John 3:16
You cannot separate cause and choice ever. Why did God create man? To love. Why did God destroy man (Noah's flood)? Man's evil desires. Why did God save man? Love
---Scott1 on 11/15/13


Elder, I will answer your questions, I love to answer you, you say,
"Why would he need to seek forgiveness?" the unsaved do not seek forgiveness, only believers in Christ do. Go ask your neighbor who is not saved and see if he is asking for forgiveness.
Then say,
"Why would anyone be called into the high court of God to answer for doing his will?" when you sin are you doing His will or yours? You sin because you are a sinner. Hello?
Then ask:
"Why would anyone need the legal advice, defense or counsel of Jesus Christ?"
The unsaved do not need legal advice, they are condemned already, waiting for sentencing. Only a supernatural act of God can stop the sentence.
---Mark_V. on 11/15/13


The Seg, if man did not have a freewill to do as he pleases then 1John 2:1 is invalid. It becomes a hole filler just to make the Bible bigger.

If God chose man to sin or a Christian to disobey why would man have to agree with God that the action is sin?

Why would he need to seek forgiveness?
Why would anyone be called into the high court of God to answer for doing his will?
Why would anyone need the legal advice, defense or counsel of Jesus Christ?

Man is drawn by his own lust. When man uses his freewill to choose lust it is conceived and brings forth sin.

Sin is forgiven when we agree with God that what we have done is sin against His Holy nature and written Word.
---Elder on 11/15/13


The Lord Jesus said,"John 14: 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him". A man has a choice to make in keeping God/Jesus' commandments(even after giving our lives to Him, we still make this choice daily). God does not force us to obey Him.
---Adetunji on 11/15/13


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"Markv says,: Free will is "the ability of agents to make choices unconstrained by certain factors." Which means to make a choice without a cause.

---Mark_V. on 11/14/13

Markv claims the only one with FREE WILL is God, because God makes choices WITHOUT A CAUSE....meaning "Just because". He believes his salvation is based on NO CAUSE whatsoever.

I told you these guys are heretics, because the reason anyone is saved is based SOLELY ON "A CAUSE". It's "CAUSE" Jesus died and Rose again and "CAUSE" God promised in Genesis 3:15 a Savior was coming.

So if their salvation is not based on THAT "CAUSE God said so" they are saying God has no free will.
---kathr4453 on 11/15/13


\\Free will is the ability to make a choice without a cause or divine intervention.
---Mark_V. on 11/15/13\\

That definition of free will is odd to the point of being wrong.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/15/13


Leon: To some extent I agree with your comment but can we call only-one-chance to sin and no repentance freewill?
---Adetunji on 11/15/13


//If anyone here truly has freewill, then prove it and obey the law of God. //

What a silly statement. So FREE WILL "now" means obedience to the Law of God? and NO free will means disobedience to the Law of God because God forces you to disobey?

Will these crack heads ever quit playing mind games?
---kathr4453 on 11/15/13


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//If anyone here truly has freewill, then prove it and obey the law of God. //

I try with all my heart "but each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desires" James 1:14, for God tempts no one. vs 13. To use Mark's language Therefore it is our own cause that makes us make choices that is free will. However, God in his love by the strength of the Holy Spirit speaks to us in truth and grace to reject or accept God's righteousness.
---Scott1 on 11/15/13


If anyone here truly has freewill, then prove it and obey the law of God. Not that it will help! But so you can prove to yourselves, you truly have (a freewill) to pick good, over evil. Now if you can't, and you see yourself doing evil instead of good!

Know this! 1Jn_2:1: My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, (Jesus Christ the righteous:)

Know this to:
Rom_3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom_3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable, there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Just alot of words, right!
Peace
---TheSeg on 11/15/13


Christian, you fail to see Christ died for the whole world. it is all over the old testiment and the new testament. you are the one who fails with your elect doctrine. yes, I know the Holy Spirit draws a person. that is why we are told to bring them in and "how can they learn without a preacher." that is why we as a Christian can be a witness to the lost otherwise, what we do for Christ is all in vain. your doctrine is all in vain.
---shira4368 on 11/15/13


Cluny, you say,
"But at least humans have free will to choose among the options that are available to us. For example, I can choose to take or not take my medicines. (I also believe it would be a sin NOT to take my prescribed medicines, as this is God's provision for me.)" yes, you can choose to take the medicine or not, but whatever choice you make has a cause or reason for doing what you are going to do. you do not take your medicine without a cause.
Who takes medicine for no reason? No one.
Free will is the ability to make a choice without a cause or divine intervention.
---Mark_V. on 11/15/13


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//Satan does not have free will, he is subject to God. Only God has free will.//

Free will is not the same thing as omnipotence.

All of us, including Satan, including even the Holy Angels, are limited in what we are able to do.

But at least humans have free will to choose among the options that are available to us. For example, I can choose to take or not take my medicines. (I also believe it would be a sin NOT to take my prescribed medicines, as this is God's provision for me.)

That's because we are creatures.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/14/13


Nurseroberts, you say,
"Mark, Free will is "the ability of agents to make choices unconstrained by certain factors."
Which means to make a choice without a cause.
Do you make choices without a cause? are your choices spontaneous choices? I doubt that very much, because there is always a reason for anyone to make a choice? If you make spontaneous choices then God cannot judge you right or wrong. But God judges us for the reason we make choices.
The unsave never seek after God (Rom.3:11). There is none who understand (Rom. 3:11). God says so. Their choice is never for God. They have a reason for not choosing Christ, they hate Him. How can they choose what they hate? God said it is impossible.
---Mark_V. on 11/14/13


shira4368 - it's one's choice to follow the devil? "Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience" Ephesians 2:2

"...being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed" 1 Peter 2:8

Finally, "choosing Christ by your freewill" is not even Scriptural. And Christ said so, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44

How do you even marry your freewill with having to be drawn by the Father? Impossible combination.
---christan on 11/14/13


Markv is saying we have free will in satan. So if we can follow satan by choice Markv, why can't we choose Christ?
---shira4368 on 11/14/13


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//Satan does not have free will, he is subject to God. Only God has free will.//

Isaiah 14:13 disagrees with you "You (Satan) said in your heart 'I will ascend...I will set...I will sit...I will make myself like the Most High' (God)." vs 15 God speaking, "But you are brought down to Sheol." Satan's will was not accomplished. See the two wills at work, Just because Satan is subject to God does not mean he does not have free will, he just does not win. What makes God sovereign is that he knows the free will of man/angels to bring about His plan. That is true power. If we/angels were to have no freewill God would just make us perfect and we would stay perfect because God cannot create rebellion. But Gen 3 happened.
---Scott1 on 11/14/13


// a child of Satan//

Satan created people. No
---Scott1 on 11/14/13


I would say angels make choices, and so in this way they have free wills. But I also understand that God in a holy angel is having the angel choose what is good. It is like it is with us >

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

God in us works to have us willing to do what is "for His good pleasure." And this is in His love. So, this is good, the best way to have a free will (c:

"Let all that you do be done with love." (1 Corinthians 16:14)

If we are free from God so we are doing what we want without Him, this is a problem. It is better to be "one spirit with Him" (1 Corinthians 6:17), sharing in His love's freedom.
---willie_c: on 11/14/13


Mark, Free will is "the ability of agents to make choices unconstrained by certain factors."

So if God is the only one with free will, then I am reqired to make whatever choice God puts on me.

Your definition of free will flys in the face of a God who allows us to make our own choices.
---NurseRobert on 11/14/13


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The verses that christian posted have nothing to do with the freewill of man or angels.

They are typical misdirection of the Calvinist doctrine to serve a purpose other than the truth.

The issue here is not about who God is or His power. It is about angels freewill. Satan and his angels that followed him exersized their freewill to do so.

If God ordained their rebellion then He is responsible for the sins of the world. God is not. Sin is doing what God would not have done by your choice.

If God ordained everything
sinful then we would not have sin but would be doing His will. Foolish, huh??
---Eldr on 11/14/13


Nurseroberts, that is exactly what I am saying. The free will you believe in, is really no free will at all. No one has a will that is free, but God. The will of the unsaved is to do the desires of their father the devil, for they are children of wrath.
Believers will is to do the desires of their Father God. You are either a child of God or a child of Satan. God put the division between both children in (Gen. 3:15).
Each child is subject to their own father. God put the enmity between the children of Satan and the Children of God.
---Mark_V. on 11/14/13


Well MarkV you seem to be saying that GOD told Satan and one third of the Angels that I want you to turn against me and become demons. So then I can use you to torment humans for all eternity.

I will make some kill and torture other humans then put both of them in fire and burn them over and over for all eternity. For what I make them do.
---SamuFoelbb7 on 11/14/13


I would first have to ask the Calvinists exactly what a WILL is. Then based on that answer, discuss what free will vs no free will means.

God DID NOT create 1/3 of His angels to rebel against Him as though they were also puppets.
---kathr4453 on 11/14/13


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"Geraldine : I do not think Angels have freewill [can choose]. They are made more superior than men. They are to do God's will or instructions only.They have no chance of repentance [change of heart] once they decide [choose] to go contrary [sin] (unlike men)."
---Adetunji on 11/14/13


?!!!

---Leon on 11/14/13


Only God has free will, only He is Autonomous. Subject to no one.
---Mark_V. on 11/14/13

Are you saying mankind does not have free will?
---NurseRobert on 11/14/13


Geraldine : I do not think Angels have freewill. They are made more superior than men. They are to do God's will or instructions only.They have no chance of repentance once they decide to go contrary (unlike men).
---Adetunji on 11/14/13


Geraldine, angels do not have free will. The holy angels are slaves of God, the demons are slaves of Satan. Satan does not have free will, he is subject to God. Only God has free will, only He is Autonomous. Subject to no one.
---Mark_V. on 11/14/13


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Satan was an angel. It would appear that he used is free will to rebel against God. How else could he have done that?
---Rita_H on 11/13/13


for God to do according to His will is not a true definition of free will to begin with.

God does all according to His Promises stated in His UNCONDITONAL Covenant.

christen really means God can, by His own free will: LIE, go back on His word, break His promises.

---kathr4453 on 11/13/13


Standard Christian teaching is that angels have free wills--both the fallen and holy ones.

The holy angels freely choose to do what God wants them to.

The fallen angels knew (because of their superior intelligence) what the consequences of their choice to disobey would be, and disobeyed anyway.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/13/13


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