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God's Calling Us

I keep hearing about the free will of man. Are we drawn to God by his effectual calling or do we come to God of our own free will? Please give scripture to support your belief.

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 ---trey on 11/20/13
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I do not know where ya'll got your definition but mine have come from two sources. I gave one earlier from wiktionary.

free will
2.(philosophy) The ability to choose one's actions, or determine what reasons are acceptable motivation for actions, without predestination, fate etc.

The second is from a theological point of view. Now since this is what I mean then you should accept that and not say I do not mean what I am saying.

Now Christian yes we are all lost. So yes it take s supernatural act for GOD to save anyone. As pointed out GOD wants all to be saved. See 1 Tim. 2.
---Samuelbb7 on 11/26/13


Rev 12:10 ...Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
2Pet 2:11-12 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not, and shall utterly perish in their own corruption,
Acts 5:38-39 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it, lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
---micha9344 on 11/26/13


I've mentioned this before, but can anyone see something missing from MarkV's comment: "If God who is Almighty Omnipotent God, Sovereign Ruler of all things"?

Yep, there he goes again, missing out on God's essence i.e. love, as in "God so loved the world..."

Of course, as Mark tried to backtrack before, he'll probably lie and say something like, "I didn't omit 'love'..."

See, MarkV loves to play the tough guy because, well, he's chosen by God and we aren't.
---Marc on 11/26/13


Peter,

Re your response ro my comment that MarkV is boasting, MarkV recently stated that he "speaks for God". He thinks he's a spiritual insider trader i.e. a prophet.

He also quite openly expresses the idea that Kath, I and others aren't saved because we don't hold to his brand of Reformed theology.

Now if this is not boasting then what on earth would satisfy you?
---Marc on 11/26/13


"If one has fallen away, then one must have had faith to begin with." Steveng & David

"falling away" implies that one has "faith from God" and they can lose their salvation?

Cain was without the "same faith" that Abel had - was he falling away? Or was he without "faith from God"? How is it possible one has "faith from God" not even do the will of God? According to Christ, it's IMPOSSIBLE!

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." John 10:27,28
---christan on 11/26/13




It's evident that Markv is the prosecution(inquisition) and not the WITNESS. Every blog has become an inquisition on Markv part to try to prosecute and condemn the witnesses. Continually calling out this one or that, demanding his way, saying..."YOU said this", and because "YOU said this ", I have judged you a liar, anti-Christ, Satan's children, and so forth.

It appears since you don't play nice Markv, no one wants to play with you anymore.

I don't want to play with Markv any more. Markv is a bully. Bullies are cowards. Cowards are terrorists. Terrorists are cowards. Satan is a coward, bully and terrorist.
---kathr4453 on 11/26/13


We are all called to GOD. But the term effectual calling is code for irresistible Grace. In that case according to some GOD only calls a few. For he only loves a few. The rest he hates and he hates a lot more then he loves.

He hates them so much that he makes them sin and pushes people to commit horrid acts on others because he hates them. When the die he places them in a torture chamber where the righteous can hear their screams of agony day and night as the beg for mercy and love which will never come.

The Spanish Inquisitors would sometime take Mercy and strangle a person to death before they burned them up. But according to some GOD is not that merciful.
---Samuelbb7 on 11/26/13


2 Thessalonians 2:3-5

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?


Only Markv claims he speaks FOR GOD, exalting himself above what God has asked us to do.......

To preach the Gospel PERIOD!
---kathr453 on 11/26/13


David, you are looking at salvation by our own will. We are not saved by our works. We are saved by grace through faith. We don't maintain salvation by our works, we maintain salvation by God, He makes us stand.
But you say,
"Great post Steven, and a question that needs an answer."How do people fall away from the faith, if they don't have a choice?"
Mark, Christan???"
Maybe this passage will answer your question,
"They went out from us, but they were not of us, for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us, they went out "that they might be manifest, that none of them were of us" (1 John 2:19).
If they fall away, they manifest they were not of us.
---Mark_V. on 11/26/13


Anti-Christ matters. WOW, what an ignorant comment. Do you even know what anti-Christ matters are? Saying God so loved the world that He gave HIS only begotten son that WHOSOEVER believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life is called anti-Christ matters? Are you NUTS? "Whosoever" Markv does not mean universals salvation. It means WHOSOEVER believes... I can't believe for you or you for me, so there is not some GROUP salvation going on here. WHOSOEVER is that meaning individual faith...individual conviction, and is addressed to ALL. Not ALL will believe, but the invitation is addressed to ALL.

Anti-Christ changes definitions, like saying whosoever doesn't really mean whosoever....just like satan did in the garden.
---kathr4453 on 11/26/13




Markv, You cannot LIMIT the atonement. In your twisted mind, you have, but Jesus shed blood once and for all is not limited. Now in the OT, the blood of bulls and goats WAS limited. It only covered, but never completed. You have a twisted understanding on the Blood of Jesus to begin with.
Our faith is in His Blood, not in election. We are JUSTIFIED by his Blood. God justifies the UNGODLY, not some re-birthed regenerated washed in the word, and renewed by the Holy Spirit person. That does not describe an ungodly person.

There is where your gnostic theory bites the dust. YOU are anti-Christ Markv! first by claiming YOU speak for God. YOU do not.

Anti-Christ will come claiming he speaks FOR God. BEWARE!
---kathr4453 on 11/26/13


Peter, thank you for your input. My point about the radio station is that I talk as though anyone who listens and understands, can turn, repent and be saved. If it is a fact that people are predestined to be saved then my belief will not hurt anyone will it as those (as you say) who are predestined will accept the offer.

However when unsaved people are told of predestination ( that they can only be saved if God elects them to be saved) it suggests a capricious god who withholds salvation. Not a nice god at all.
---Warwick on 11/26/13


James I wrote "I tell people that anyone who repents and asks can be saved. Do you really imagine God will refuse anyone who truly repents?"

You wrote "And, the post I replied to is where you AT LEAST insinuated that God would forgive - not on the basis of faith in Christ, but upon the work of saying a prayer."

James I nowhere mentioned "a prayer." I wrote of a sinner who repents and asks Jesus for forgiveness. The very act of repentance and turning to Jesus seeking forgiveness is an act of faith. Are you saying Jesus would reject such a repentant man?
---Warwick on 11/26/13


End time prophy tells that there is to be a great falling away from the faith. If one has fallen away, then one must have had faith to begin with. It is their choice to fall away because of several reasons.
There are many warnings to christians about falling away.
Go into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believes and is baptized shall be saved, but he that does not believe shall be damned. - a choice.
---Steveng on 11/25/13


Great post Steven, and a question that needs an answer."How do people fall away from the faith, if they don't have a choice?"

Mark, Christan???
---David on 11/26/13


Shira, you are making a big mistake listening to Kathr, and you are even telling her to continue. Do you not see your fault? You are asking her to continue to speak anti-christ matters. You should let her fall on her own sin.
You said:
"Marks, I hope Kathr never stops telling the truth. God sent His Son into the world to save ALL lost."
If God who is Almighty Omnipotent God, Sovereign Ruler of all things, sent His Son into the world to save all who are lost as you say, then God must not be God Almighty nor omnipotent. He has failed, He is no more a god then the pagans gods who cannot do anything. They cannot speak, talk, or anwer the prayers of pagans.
---Mark_V. on 11/26/13


"You see, they believe that God's will is irresistible and that God" Marc

Obviously, your god and jesus is not of the Holy Bible. And here's why -

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." John 6:37,44,65

"My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." John 10:29
---christan on 11/26/13


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IF God had some preselect group getting saved through osmosis , there would have been no need for Jesus to die and rise again! no need for anyone to WITNESS His resurrection of which the Gospel is based on those witnesses who said they saw Jesus after he rose from the dead. Now because of their WITNESS, many believed who actually did not see it themselves, but BELIEVED the others report.

It's very simple, either YOU believe their report today, yourself having never been there 2000 years ago or you don't. There's no secret mystery about it or secret society associated with it.

Do you believe in Jesus death and resurrection or not? YOU may not like that salvation is based on this, but GOD does, and this is HIS basis for salvation.
---kathr4453 on 11/26/13


In court, two sides present their WITNESSES before the court and jury of 12, who decide, based on those facts presented by the WITNESSES who is and who is not telling the truth. Not one juror was present during the crime, and no special fairy is going to enlighten anyone to know what is truth or not.

Depending on who the jurors BELIEVE, putting their faith in one they BELIEVE, a decision is made.

See, your WILL is not involved, no supernatural act is involved. FACTS are involved.

Scripture is FULL , steeped with facts and witnesses, prophets etc. You either believe it or not. The WORD was made flesh, died and rose again for YOUR sin so that whosoever believes in Him and what He did for YOU personally shall be saved.
---kathr4453 on 11/26/13


#3 conclusion
Now the sad side is, we have corruption in courts who HIDE vital information, don't present ALL the facts, twist the truth, and play the courtroom shuffle we've all seen happen. This isn't done out of justice, but greed as to who can win.

This is what cults do. They don't take ALL the facts and present ALL the truth.

But a witness is one who tells the truth, the whole truth and nothing BUT the truth.

Keep your eyes on the WITNESSES, and decide based on FACT what YOU believe. ....not on what the defense or prosecution want you to believe. The prosecution or defense DO NOT have to place their hand on a bible and swear to tell the truth, or are they themselves witnesses.
---kathr453 on 11/26/13


End time prophy tells that there is to be a great falling away from the faith. If one has fallen away, then one must have had faith to begin with. It is their choice to fall away because of several reasons.

There are many warnings to christians about falling away.

Go into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believes and is baptized shall be saved, but he that does not believe shall be damned. - a choice.
---Steveng on 11/25/13


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-Warwick on 11/24/13: Your comments about your radio talk back have a point.

The idea of predestination is that if someone is predestined to be saved, he will call your radio talk show, and will understand your answer, and will be saved.

If he is not, he will not think to call up.

So it is not something you need to talk about.

God fixes it without us having to talk about it so much

My personal opinion, of course, from the way I've been able to understand the few cases where the idea of predestination is written or implied in the Bible (and they are not that many times).
---Peter on 11/25/13


Marc on 11/25/13: You may view MarcV and Christan's comments as 'boasting', as it looks as though you are claiming, if you desire.

But when I read their comments, I do not see something that seems as a looking down on others.
---Peter on 11/25/13


Warwick,
there's no such thing as an unbeliever asking for forgiveness in a Christian context

The path to life is FAITH - hope. conviction. confidence, being fully persuaded.

Scripture NOWHERE tells unbelievers to ask forgiveness. God doesn't hear unbelievers. How could they possibly ask, that God would forgive?

And, the post I replied to is where you AT LEAST insinuated that God would forgive - not on the basis of faith in Christ, but upon the work of saying a prayer

God has already provided the means of salvation, in Christ, to the one who believes in Him who justifies the ungodly. To ask for it demonstrates a LACK of faith that it is accomplished already
---James_L on 11/25/13


I truly pity the mental stability of MarkV and Christan. You see, they believe that God's will is irresistible and that God, and God only, chooses who will be saved. Why on earth, then, would these 2 guys be so keen to talk about Christ and to tell Kath, me and the others that we're unsaved if it's all up to God casting his magic spell over our minds and we can't search for him or open the door when he knocks?

Why? I'll tell you why. Because they love to be nasty and implicitly gloat that God chose them. They love to secretly boast, in their hearts, that "We're chosen by God and you guys aren't. Ha-ha-ha!"

This is the fruit of their heretical, nasty hyper-Calvinist doctrine.
---Marc on 11/25/13


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Some, out of ignorance believe and accuse one of universal salvation, when one never said anything about universal salvation to begin with.

So again, in someons's dishonest OPINION , that someone makes more dishonest statements out of a dishonest heart and dishonest mind.

I cannot reason or converse honestly with such dishonesty.
---kathr4454 on 11/25/13


James, I am obviously speaking of asking for forgiveness in a Christian context.

Where have I ever even hinted that we can do any work in order to be saved? Please show me, or admit you have misunderstood.
---Warwick on 11/25/13


Hi, Trey (c: By the bible . . . Paul speaks of how "you were slaves of sin" (Romans 6:17, 6:20). I would say a slave is not free, and so the person's will is not free, in sin.

"But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered." (Romans 6:17)

So, I see that the thanks is to God, that He changed us so we "obeyed from the heart". We had wicked hearts, not obedient. But God changed us. So, the thanks is to Him, not to our "free wills" which were free from God and therefore in sin.
---willie_c: on 11/25/13


Marks, I hope Kathr never stops telling the truth. God sent His Son into the world to save ALL lost. He didn't die just for you like you would have everyone believe. Actually He died for Jew and gentile. He died for EVERYONE.
---shira4368 on 11/25/13


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Kathr, I told you that you do a lot of talking with no Truth. Now you are preaching "another heretical view, Universal salvation." God having mercy on all human beings, not just believers, and you made that very clear when you said:
" "For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all." Romans 11:32
..has now CONCLUDED all, both Jew and Gentile, in unbelief, so that He might have mercy upon ALL, meaning every single human."
You own very words. Where will you stop? Maybe tomorrow. Maybe never.
---Mark_V. on 11/25/13


Christan Jesus came to MY PEOPLE, and MY PEOPLE received him not.
Then we see Paul taking the Gospel to the Gentiles who were NEVER MY PEOPLE to begin with.

The Gentiles were without God as Ephesians tell us, but were BROUGHT near by the Blood of Jesus Christ. Doesn't sound as though any Gentiles were ever preselected as the elect to begin with. The Gentiles were wild against nature grafted in.

When they "believe" these facts, it may humble them.

God never said concerning Gentiles..."LET MY PEOPLE GO".

But if they want to insist, then it's up to THEM to turn from THEIR wicked ways, so our land can be healed.
---kathr4453 on 11/25/13


David, you say,
Mark...If we were chosen before Jesus gave us the plan of salvation, why did God send the world his plan of salvation"
God is outside of time. He made His plan in eternity past. We are told Christ was "foreknown as a sacrifice for sin before the foundation of the world." (1 Peter 1:20). Paul speaks of the "eternal purpose" which was purposed in Jesus Christ our Lord (Eph. 3:11). Hebrews refers to "the blood of an eternal covenant" (Heb. 13:20) And since the plan of redemption is traced back into eternity: the plan to permit man to fall into the sin from which he was to be redeemed must also extend back into eternity. It is written.
---Mark_V. on 11/25/13


David, your understanding of God's plan stems from the view of a fallen creature "who's dead in sins and trespasses".

It clear that God is not a man and He does not think like a man. Christ didn't come to this world to die so that mankind is made savable. His death "saved His people from their sins". That's why "His blood is precious".

And who are "His people"? Christ declared, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" and "as many as were ordained to eternal life believed".

All this falls in line with election and predestination, like it or not.
---christan on 11/25/13


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"But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world..." 1 Peter 1:19,20 and then Paul, "For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all." Romans 11:32


All here means both Jew and Gentile.

So we see, that even after the law was instituted! showing man could never live by the law perfectly as God knew man could not, has now CONCLUDED all, both Jew and Gentile, in unbelief, so that He might have mercy upon ALL, meaning every single human.

Again that verse also refutes the Jacob Theory of calvinism
---kathr4453 on 11/25/13


Warwick, you say,
" I tell people that anyone who repents and asks can be saved. Do you really imagine God will refuse anyone who truly repents? Isn't my job just to preach the word and leave the rest to the Lord, and not set hurdles?"

You have to ask if they have faith in Christ. Because we are saved by grace through faith. Just asking them to repent means nothing without faith. It's not about whether they believe in predestination or not. It's whether you as a believe in Christ understand how salvation came to you. You should know if you are going to preach the gospel. If they have saving faith they will repent, and you will know that God is already working in their lives. Otherwise they would not have faith at all.
---Mark_V. on 11/25/13


Warwick,
asking for forgiveness has absolutely no benefit whatsoever for passing from death to life

Paul said that he reckoned to know nothing except Christ, and Him crucified. Scripture offers eternal life to those to BELIEVE IN HIM

Many people have asked forgiveness without knowing anything about Christ being crucified, or why He was crucified. I was one of them, for years and years.

I'm not advocating Protestant election, either. Eternal life is available to all, but not via self effort.

Our hope is to be firmly fixed upon HIM, not our prayers

Not by works of righteousness which WE have done, but by His mercy He saved us
---James_L on 11/25/13


Mark
Do you believe Jesus, was sent by God with a plan of salvation?
If you do, when does someone make plans.... before or after an event?
If we were chosen before Jesus gave us the plan of salvation, why did God send the world his plan of salvation?
---David on 11/25/13


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Warwick, do not misunderstand what I say. I stand before God guilty of sinning against Him, just like all of mankind, regardless of saved or unsaved. That's the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Now, here's the kicker - election and predestination is EXPLICITLY mentioned and TAUGHT in the Bible, period.

Your issue about these doctrines which may "turn people off" is your problem with God, not me. Christ, His prophets and apostles did not shy away from these doctrines, neither will I. Just bear in mind of what He said,

"But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 10:33
---christan on 11/25/13


For Christan to try to marry Romans 5 with 1peter 2, EXCLUDING himself from the ALL who came under Adam, is quite clever to those who he may think are idiots. If he truly believes this, then he himself was "appointed" to disobedience under Adam's sin.

God did NOT "appoint" anyone to disobedience, according to Romans 5. It came as a result of Adam's sin, which passed as well to Christan. In Romans 5 there is no WE and THEY. Cute try Christan, but that dog don't hint.

It's Adam 1 and the last Adam who is Jesus Christ Romans 5 is talking about.

You Christan were not APPOINTED to righteousness either. Righteousness is IMPUTED, not appointed.
---kathr4453 on 11/25/13


May I suggest that the 'us' - and Paul always talks in the plural - is the Church.
---Marc on 11/25/13


Steven, you told us some time back that you met the two prophets on your journey. Claiming they spoke to you. Now you give,
"Revelation 3:20
"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."

The passage is not talking about God knocking in anyone's heart. In fact the context states that the message be written to the angel of the church in Thyatira which is in between Pergamos and Sardis. They wer committing sexual immorality and eating things sacrificed to idols. God was knocking at their door to see if there was any believers there who would answer.
---Mark_V. on 11/25/13


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Christan, does what I believe change anything?

I do a Christian talk-back radio program and people phone in with comments, complaints, thanks, and criticisms. I tell people that anyone who repents and asks can be saved. Do you really imagine God will refuse anyone who truly repents? Isn't my job just to preach the word and leave the rest to the Lord, and not set hurdles?

But what about if you convince people they can only be saved if they are predestined to be saved? How many people are confident that God would choose them? I believe you may turn people off because few believe they are worthy to be chosen. But many will choose to ask God for forgiveness.
---Warwick on 11/24/13


Stevens, as always you are so right. God does stand at our door and knock. Some won't answer but the bible also says even the firmament speaks of God. Can't remember where the verse is.
---shira4368 on 11/24/13


Mark_V. wrote: "Billions have never heard of Jesus Christ."

God has a plan for those billions. Let God handle them at judgment day.

Mark_V. wrote: "God speaks through His word."

God speaks through his prophets and teachers and apostles and all other godly people. You are the one that will celebrate the killing of God's last two prophets mentioned in Revelation because they don't conform to your personal ideology.

Mark_V. wrote: "He is not knocking on any one's door in the hope you let Him in."

Revelation 3:20
"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."
---Steveng on 11/24/13


Warwick, I don't dispute verses presented from Scriptures, but I challenge your understanding and defence of your freewill. My advice is to not hardened your stance on predestination. Here's why, Romans 5:19 declared, "For as by the one mans disobedience..."

Read what Peter has to say about "disobedience", "And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed." 1 Peter 2:8 - do you know what Peter is revealing here?

You show me Romans 5:19 which only solidifies my believe that God is sovereign and man WILL BE held accountable (notice I didn't say "responsible").
---christan on 11/24/13


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Christan, considering what Adam did it is best to see what Scripture directly says about him: Romans 5:19 "For as by the one mans disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one mans obedience the many will be made righteous. Scripture always blames Adam, not God as it was not God's will that Adam should plunge man into the death, misery and bloodshed of the curse.

But Jesus' comments in the Garden of Gethsemane Matthew 26:39 "...not as I will, but as you will" shows Jesus had free-will to chose to die or not to die but being obedient submitted Himself to God's will.
---Warwick on 11/24/13


Steven, you speak without understanding. You say,
"God is calling out to all men to come to him. He does not want 'any' man to perish. Jesus said "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door,.." The key word here is "if" as in a choice that it may or may not happen."
God is not calling out every individual. Billions have never heard of Jesus Christ. God speaks through His word. He is not knocking on any one's door in the hope you let Him in. Don't you understand we are saved by grace through faith? Everything we are and have is by the Grace of God. Our salvation, our faith, our sanctification, our righteousness, All comes by the grace of God.
---Mark_V. on 11/24/13


David, for Markv to understand IN HIM , he first has to understand the doctrine of the CROSS. Calvinism does not teach the cross.

The CROSS and our being IN HIM, "ENTERING IN "through the veil" , that is to say HIS flesh a new and living way...Hebrews 10 , is not taught in reformed doctrine.

Markv likes to post "the preaching of the cross" but it is actually foolishness to Markv.

They identify with Jacob who never had to identify with Christ crucified being raised a NEW creature in the first place..that can only happen THROUGH the CROSS, THROUGH Christ.

The whole election of Jacob to be the corporate earthly head of Israel has nothing to do with the preaching of the CROSS.
---kathr4453 on 11/24/13


Heard of predestination? --christen

Predestination is the plan of salvation God put into place by which all men could be saved through Jesus Christ.
This was the plan God put into place before the foundation of the world and this is what Paul is telling us in (Ephesians 1:3-13).

Predestination is not the salvation of man before the foundation of the world.
If we were saved before the foundation of the world, why did Jesus die on the cross? What purpose did it serve, if we were saved before his sacrifice?

Does the cart come before the horse?
Did our salvation come before the sacrifice of Jesus Christ?
---David on 11/24/13


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"Effectual calling" is best defined in the Scriptures as, "For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified."
Romans 8:29,30 - note the tenses being used.

One must be totally blind to see anywhere that the man has a part to play in God's calling of His elect in the above written by Paul. Rather, the sinner is the beneficiary of His grace in His calling.
---christan on 11/24/13


David, are you speaking to Calvin or to me? He is dead. I am still here. Now you are suggesting that "IN Him" changes the passage. There is hundreds of passages that teach God chooses.
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us" (talking about believers right now) "with every spiritual blessings in the heavenly places in Christ. "Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world."
He chose us in His Son before the foundation of the world. In times past, before creation He decided to save some in His Son, but not all.
The New Covenant under which we are under mentions nothing concerning the work of man. It is all the work of God.
---Mark_V. on 11/24/13


"Adam and Eve disobeyed God's commandment. It was their choice to eat it." steveng

Of course, they were held accountable for the very act of disobedience. But to say, it was their choice? Read what Peter had to say,

"But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world..." 1 Peter 1:19,20 and then Paul, "For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all." Romans 11:32

Heard of predestination? That was what Eden was all about. That God is sovereign and man will be held accountable? Awesome isn't it?
---christan on 11/23/13


As for the word "call." It seems that many christians lack the knowledge of its meaning.

God is calling out to all men to come to him. He does not want 'any' man to perish. Jesus said "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door,.." The key word here is "if" as in a choice that it may or may not happen.

Proverbs 1:24
Proverbs 8:4
Luke 5:32
Acts 2:21 (whosoever)
Romans 10:12-14
1 Corinthians 7:17 ("any")

The harvest is plenty, but the workers are few to call out to all mankind to repent and be saved. Once a person recieved God's word, then God will work on that person. That person then has a choice to either accept or reject Him.
---Steveng on 11/23/13


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Mark
I believe you may have misunderstood my point. The verse does not say he chose us before the foundation of the world, it says, "He has chosen us, in Him, before the foundation of the world."
That's what God, "predetermined," before the foundation of the world. He did not predetermine who would and who would not be saved.

Calvin left the "In Him" out.
If the verse was read as Calvin taught it, it should read, "God chose us before the foundation of the world."
But as you can see now, that's not what Paul was saying.
---David on 11/23/13


Trey, exactly what is effectual calling and why is your question presented as though it is the opposite of FREE will.

Can you find even ONE verse using the word EFFECTUAL CALLING.

This is all cult tactics.
These guys are not even worth the time of day.

Whosoever will is what scripture states.
The only effectual calling is from Satan...he knows you belong to him, and has called you into service to wreck havock in the church and to try to wear out the saints.

Do you know what your reward will be in the end? WE DO!
---kathr4453 on 11/23/13


Steven, why do you understand? The passages are clear. God made an agreement or covenant with Adam, obey God and live, disobey God and die. He chose to disobey. Death came to all men. The law was given to men, obey and get the blessings, disobey and receive the curse. No one could keep the whole law. The law was not given for salvation, it was given to show us what sin was. There is no salvation through the law, no one can keep the whole law, break one you break them all. That is why everyone is found guilty, cursed, without hope heading to hell. Only a supernatural act of God can remove them out of path to hell. No matter how much free will you think you have or how many choices, you can never keep the whole law.
---Mark_V. on 11/23/13


God told Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit of a certain tree. Adam and Eve disobeyed God's commandment. It was their choice to eat it.

God gave us laws - to obey or reject. These laws would be in vain if God didn't give us the free will to obey them or not.

Genesis 22:18
Genesis 26:5
Exodus 19:5 ("if you obey", meaning a choice)
Exodus 23:22
Exodus 24:7
Deuteronomy 8:20
Deuteronomy 11:27-28 ("if you obey", "if you will not obey", meaning a choice)
Deuteronomy 21:18-20
Judges 2:17
1 Samuel 8:19 ("refused to obey", a choice)
1 Samuel 12:14-15
Job 36:11-12 ("if they obey", "if they will not obey", meaning a choice)
---Steveng on 11/22/13


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Mark Eaton, I don't dispute the verses but your understanding. Here's why -

John 14:21 - ever realise "We love Him because He first loved us."? 1 John 4:19

Philippians 2:12 - You quote verse 12 and left out on purpose the following verse, "for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure."

Hebrews 11:6 - Where does this "faith" comes from? "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

What you freewillers do is mock your own freewill theology. You quote half verses here and there to exalt only yourselves, never God.
---christan on 11/22/13


David, it is a great passage, but you say:
"Mark Good passage, but you may want to re-read verse 4 where it says, "He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world.""
Of course He chose us, the "us" are all believers. Paul was talking to believers. He was not talking to the unsaved. US, is us believers. He chose us before the foundation of the world. It does not say He chose everyone, but "us."
Then say: "It does not say God chose us as individuals, before the foundation of the world." We, believers, are those He chose.
So it does say, "God chose us" Are you not one individual who was saved?
---Mark_V. on 11/22/13


Mark
Good passage, but you may want to re-read verse 4 where it says, "He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world."

It does not say God chose us as individuals, before the foundation of the world.
It says God chose to save us in him (Jesus Christ), before the foundation of the world.

This is why Jesus stated, "Nobody comes to the Father except through me."

---David on 11/22/13


AWESOME David, IN HIM....it seems that part is overlooked or totally misunderstood by Calvinists. I have brought this to markv and christens attention many times, that no one was "IN CHRIST" before the foundation of the world. We did not preexist.
---kathr4453 on 11/22/13


Please show us the part that says after being drawn by God, "it's up to us to follow Christ".
---christan on 11/21/13

Sure. Lots of references:

John 14:21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him"

Phil 2:12 "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling"

Heb 11:6 "But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him"
---Mark_Eaton on 11/22/13


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Mark E, (Luke 9:23) Jesus is talking to His disciples who were being taught by Jesus. Self-denial was a common thread in Christ's teachings to His disciples (Luke 14:26,27: Matt. 10:38:16:24: Mark 8:34: John 12:24-26). The kind of self-denial He sought was not a reclusive asceticism but a willingness to obey His commandments, serve one another and suffer, perhaps even die for His sake. When the Holy Spirit finally did come on them, the Spirit helped them in their ministry.
---Mark_V. on 11/22/13


Mark E 2: After a person is saved by God when He draws them to Himself, every believer is indwelled with the Spirit of God. Everything good we do, is because of the Spirit in us. The reason all believers give the glory to God because He is the One drawing us to do what is good, so we give Him the glory for everything in our lives. "Do not be deceived, my brethren. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning" (Jame 1:16,17). There is nothing in us that is good without Christ.
---Mark_V. on 11/22/13


Mark
Good passage, but you may want to re-read verse 4 where it says, "He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world."

It does not say God chose us as individuals, before the foundation of the world.
It says God chose to save us in him (Jesus Christ), before the foundation of the world.

This is why Jesus stated, "Nobody comes to the Father except through me."
---David on 11/22/13


Christan: Mark Eaton is right. Following God/Jesus is a mutual thing or by agreement. To pick up a child, you attract his attention, he opens his arms, you carried him. The child who cannot carry himself to the height you will, has agreed to be carried. When the Lord Jesus said,"Come unto me..Matt.11:28", HE is not forcing it on us, our willingness is required. When we obey, HIS promises will be fulfilled in us. Therefore we have a part(though small) to play.
---Adetunji on 11/22/13


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If perhaps Christan read and understood Philippians 3, he wouldn't be making such an ignorant statement here.

Read the WHOLE chapter Christan....all the way to the very last verse in that chapter.

May also want to read Hebrews 6 as well.

Faith without works IS a dead faith.

You and Markv have stated over and over you do not believe James chapter 1...or 2 ...proving you practice a head knowledge doctrine with no evidence at all even proving you really ARE saved.
---kathr4453 on 11/22/13


//Please show us the part that says after being drawn by God, "it's up to us to follow Christ".//

King Saul, 1 Samuel 15:26,
James 4:8 Draw near to God and he will draw near to you
James 2:18 I will show you my faith by my works.

Christian you will say that I have misinterpreted these verse which I will say you have misinterpreted your verse. The verse you quoted meaning is that no amount of sin can break the sacrifice that Jesus paid for our redemption. We are talking about the self choosing God not outside influences (sin, demons) breaking that promise.
---Scott1 on 11/22/13


John 8:12 "Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life."

1 Corinthians 11:1 "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ."
1Corinthians 14:1 "Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy."

Mark Eaton is in agreement with those verses. The christian is admonished to follow and he must.

2 Timothy 2:19 "Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity."
---Nana on 11/22/13


"God draws us but after that it is up to us to follow Christ." Mark Eaton

Say what? After being drawn by the power of God to salvation, it's still up to you to decide? My goodness, how you pervert and corrupt the Word of God.

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." John 6:37, "My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." John 10:29

Please show us the part that says after being drawn by God, "it's up to us to follow Christ". I've already shown you John 6:37 and 10:29 that contradicts your understanding.
---christan on 11/21/13


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John 6:44,65 Nothing can be clearer and more explicit than freewill is just a figment of the fallen man's imagination.
---christan on 11/20/13

I see both a decision and action taken to believe in this verse:

Luke 9:23 " Then He said to them all, If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me"

God draws us but after that it is up to us to follow Christ.
---Mark_Eaton on 11/21/13


David, you asked:
"Why does God draws us?" (Eph. 1:5) "According to His good pleasure"
Then ask:
"Doesn't He draw those He loves?" That is right, those He chose before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4-6)
Then asked:
"And why does he love them?" Because He chose to love them. Nothing in them made Him love them, they are all sinners condemned already destine to hell.
Then you give:
"(John 14:21) He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My and My Father and I will love him and manifest Myself to him"
"We love Him because He first loved us" (1 John 4:19).
---Mark_V. on 11/21/13


"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. And He said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." John 6:44,65

Nothing can be clearer and more explicit than freewill is just a figment of the fallen man's imagination.

---christan on 11/20/13

How or where does he gets those drawn to him?

verse 45 in jhn 6 tells us:

" EVERYONE who LISTENS to the Father and LEARNS from him comes to me"

Again those who learn and listen to the Father he drawns them to Jesus!

It does not say 'Those who are already chosen have listen and learn from the Father.
---Ruben on 11/21/13


We are drawn to God by his effectual calling See Adam and Eve after they sinned. God speaking "Adam where are you" They tried to use leaves to regain righteousness but only blood can aka the skin of the animal.
Our free will is to reject or accept that calling that God speaks to us aka obedience. See King Saul, 12 spies of Israel, King David - "a man after God's own heart," Paul's conversion. A choice was made to follow or run away from that calling.
---Scott1 on 11/21/13


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Didn't Adam and Eve lose their freedom when they fell?

And no scripture says that men in sin are free, but "slaves of sin".

And no scripture says a human in sin can of his or her own sufficiency become wise enough to choose good.

Even we Christians fail to choose to obey Jesus in His "rest for your souls" (Matthew 11:29), and we do not choose to at every moment obey how our Father rules us in His peace (Colossians 3:15). This is partly because only our Father is able to have us will and do what He pleases (Philippians 2:13) > "Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God," (2 Corinthians 3:5)
---willie_c: on 11/21/13


Actually, TULIP is the the teaching of the Synod of Dort, not from Chauvin (Calvin) himself.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/21/13


Total Depravity
Unconditional Election
Irresistible Grace
Limited Atonement
Perseverance of the Saints.

This is the Basis of the no free will belief. For those of us who understand that first and foremost GOD is LOVE. The word is Agape.

We know from Scripture that GOD calls all human beings. We know that the HOLY SPIRIT convicts the whole world that JESUS died for them.

It is the use of two scriptures that lead to this understanding of the Bible and the denial of understanding that GOD is Agape. Yes He is also the GOD of Justice. But in forcing people to be lost and forcing people to commit sins then punishing them for what you made them do there is no justice.
---Samuelbb7 on 11/21/13


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