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Faith Or By Works

Are we judged by our faith or our works?

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 ---jerry6593 on 11/22/13
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Paul didn't preach works for salvation.
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.(ref 1Cor 15:1-4)
---michael_e on 12/9/13


BRYAN: "Jesus said you will be judged by your on words not your on works"

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God, and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS.

Jesus said we will be judged by our words AND our works.



---jerry6593 on 12/9/13


Jesus said you will be judged by your on words not your on works Matthew 12:36,37. Your words set the course of your heart and that will be your works. It is what comes out of your mouth that sets you free or condemns you. Those are the seeds you planted and have growing in your own life. Look at your heart. What words are coming out of your mouth? Cause out of the heart the mouth speaks Matthew 12:34 Learn to sow the Gospel it will change your life completely.
---BRYAN on 12/8/13


MarkV: I thought you said that God had sovereign authority over our will. Now you say that Satan does. Make up your mind. I guess you believe that Flip Wilson was right .... "The devil made me do it!"

Why do you bother on this website? Other than Christan, no one here buys your predestination garbage.




---jerry6593 on 12/8/13


Jerry, the will is never free from any motive or reason. To have a will that is free is to have a will that decides for no reason. Fallen man is still free to choose what he desires, but because his desires are only wicked he lacks the moral ability to come to Christ. As long as he remains in the flesh, unregenerate, he will never choose Christ. He cannot choose Christ precisely because he cannot act against his own will. He has no desire for Christ. He cannot choose what he does not desire. Fallen man is flesh. In the flesh he can do nothing to please God,
"The fleshly mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God" (Rom. 8:7,8).
---Mark_V. on 12/8/13




Jerry, you ask the same question:
"The Bible says that Eve CHOSE to believe Satan rather than God. The result has been disastrous. Do you believe that?" she did choose to believe satan over God, for the simple reason she was deceived.
Then asked:" If so then how could she not have made the decision of her own FREE WILL?" Her will was not free to choose, she chose because she believed satan. Then say:
" Do you actually believe that God caused her to go against Him, and joined with Satan in her downfall?" God did not cause her to believe satan, Satan cause her to believe him with his lies. When the will chooses to do something, it always has a cause for choosing, it is never free.
---Mark_V. on 12/7/13


I agree with you Ruben. Seems like Samuelbb7 is playing the 'politicaly' correct route with these guys, trying to find commonality.
Good luck with that.
---Nana on 12/6/13


Zephaniah 2:3 - Seek ye the lord, all ye meek of the Earth , which have wrought his judgement: seek righteousness, seek meekness , it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the Lords anger,

Romans 3:24 - Being Justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Romans 3:25 - Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, though the forbearance of God,
---RICHARDC on 12/6/13


The wicked are judged by their works. Christians are judged by what works JESUS CHRIST did.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/6/13

If christians are judge by the works Jesus did, then what's there to judge?

Also why does James tell us in 2:24 that we will be justify by OUR works as does Jesus and Paul?
---Ruben on 12/6/13


Christians are filled with the Love of GOD and love of others. See First John.

Christians produce good works for the same reason apples trees produce apples it is our nature.

The wicked are judged by their works. Christians are judged by what works JESUS CHRIST did.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/6/13




Paul speaks of "faith working through love," in Galatians 5:6. So, I see that we need His faith which does His works of His love. So, it is not faith or works, but faith with works of love.

In James chapter two, we see a few examples that James presents, of works > first, helping a needy person, then Abraham putting God first by doing exactly what God communicated for him to do, and Rahab helping God's servants, at the risk of her life.

So, these are works of love, not copy-cat ceremony stuff that any psychopath can imitate so he or she is accepted by some self-favoritistic group that judges by outward show.
---willie_c: on 12/5/13


//We are ordered to do both (read James)//
James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Who's speaking, who is he speaking to?
---michael_e on 11/27/13

I only see two here who have any kind of faith. Michael E and Richard. Faith in all scripture....

Faith, that GOD knows beforehand. Faith whether they totally understand GOD's purpose or not. Faith enough to post what is actually said and who it is said too. Faith in a GOD who is just and fair.

Mat_10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat_15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
---Trav on 12/5/13


jerry the greater question is, if Jesus was manifest, that is being born, crucified and risen and all he went through to destroy the works of Satan, and they claim Satan was a robot doing God's will, what awful suffering and death and even a senseless one at that only to destroy the works they claim were God's to begin with.

it's almost like saying God's plan was to send people to hell and that was the only way He could do it. If God wanted to create a handful of sinless perfect robots to spend eternity with, He really didn't need to go to such drastic means. BUT if God's plan and purpose was to send people to hell, withholding intentionally salvation from all but a select few, that would be the way to do it.

---kathr4453 on 12/4/13


MarkV: You are avoiding my questions. I'll try again.

The Bible says that Eve CHOSE to believe Satan rather than God. The result has been disastrous. Do you believe that? If so then how could she not have made the decision of her own FREE WILL? Do you actually believe that God caused her to go against Him, and joined with Satan in her downfall? Do you see how ridiculous your predestination paradigm is?



---jerry6593 on 12/4/13


Thank you RICHARD. Satan was given his death blow at the CROSS. Hebrews 2 and other places make that clear.

Yes, all OT saints lived by faith. Hebrews 11 is great on that subject.

No argument here.
---kathr4453 on 12/4/13


Karthr , Issac or jacob - did not receive and imputed righteousness ---->

Not by blessing there son, I know that, But what Hebrews 11 is dealing with are those who had Faith - and faith Isaac and jacob had, and by faith made righteous - having the imputed righteousness is what Hebrews 11:40 is dealing with,

Destroy the works of the devil ,

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them saying, All power is given unto me in Heaven and in Earth,

( satan was given a death blow at the cross )

---RICHARDC on 12/3/13


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1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil, for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

markv speaks with forked tongue, giving Satan more power than God. Yet on another blog states the complete opposite calling this verse a lie.

How exactly did Jesus destroy the works of the devil? Markv cannot answer this according to Calvinism.
---kathr4453 on 12/3/13


Richard, Jacob blessed all his sons, Genesis 49. Not just Joseph's two sons.

Isaac also by Faith blessed Jacob and Esau of things to come, again in Genesis.

But the FAITH of Abraham had nothing to do with Blessing his sons. The Faith of Abraham has to do with believing God Promises given to Abraham.

Isaac or Jacob did not receive any IMPUTED righteousness simply by blessing their sons.
---kathr4453 on 12/3/13


In Matthew 25 JESUS speaks of how true faith works and false faith does not. True faith causes us to love others and love leads us to acts of love.

False faith speaks of believing but does not love others so it does not work for others.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/3/13


Karthr - in Hebrews 11:20 - It does not say Esau had Faith , as it does in 11:21 with Jacob, Go down to Hebrews 11:33 - and it's talking about faith and obtained promises, 11:39 - 11,40 - The Old Testament heroes are made prefect ,when the New Covenant comes into play.They still got there though Faith,
---RICHARDC on 12/3/13


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Jerry, I believe for the saved, we stand at the judgement seat of Christ. We know we will be judged by something. I see Paul tell us that some men's works will burn, yet he is saved. But in that same chapter, Paul tells us more. He said he laid the foundation , and that foundation Paul laid was that of the doctrine of Christ, the cross, the NEW creature, the Church, But it was up to US as individuals to build upon that foundation and to be careful how we built. And it appears this is what will either stand the fire, or burn up in the fire.
But all this comes to us through faith in His Word, and how has this "change you" transformed you personally through faith in His Word. ****2 Peter chapter 1. The WHOLE Chapter*** will help.
---kathr4453 on 12/3/13


Hebrews 11:20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.
---kathr4453 on 12/2/13


Hebrews 11:21 - By faith Jacob , when he was a dying , blessed both the sons of joseph:and worshipped , leaning upon the top of his staff,
---RICHARDC on 12/2/13


You teach free will means making a choice yes or no. That's not what it means, "It means making a choice not base on a cause." The unsave make no choices for Christ,"There is none who seeks after God" (Rom. 3:11).
Mark_V.

Please do not give a false definition of what we mean by free will. I have pointed out to you that this is a false accusation.

Secondly GOD seeks after us so you are correct we do not seek after GOD. He draws all men to himself by the lifting up of JESUS. This is what scripture says.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/2/13


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Calvinists teach in words, they were saved by IRRESISTIBLE FAITH called Grace. The definition of GRACE or Faith has nothing to do with being irresistible. Faith is believing in the things NOT SEEN, YET they continue to claim God gave them eyes to SEE before they could believe. They claim they entered in "through the veil", not even washed in the Blood first so that they could believe. Even Christ could not enter in except through His Own blood, yet they claim they were washed, purged, forgiven, cleansed, given the HOLY Spirit all before faith?

They stake their claim on Jacob, who needed NO FAITH WHATSOEVER.

Where does scripture state????:

Those who are of the FAITH of Jacob...Ans: NOWHERE!
---kathr4453 on 12/2/13


Acts 26:16-19

16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee, ---

18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me..

19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:


again, this does not teach irresistible grace. Or aren't you really saying IRRESISTIBLE FAITH?
---kathr4453 on 12/2/13


Warwick, here is what dead in trespasses and sins means
"And you He made alive who were dead in trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedence" The spirit of Satan is at work in all the unsaved. You say they are free to choose. By nature they are children of wrath. The passage describe where they came from, before God made them alive
You teach free will means making a choice yes or no. That's not what it means, "It means making a choice not base on a cause." The unsave make no choices for Christ,"There is none who seeks after God" (Rom. 3:11).
---Mark_V. on 12/2/13


Jerry, some propose there is not such thing as free-will for mankind i.e. the ability to choose yes or no. They are therefore saying those who sin have been caused to do so by God. Being a Bible-believer you know God cursed the whole of creation because of Adams sin, bringing, for the first time, death, disease and suffering upon it. As you know Scripture shows God blames Adam for this mess. However if the no free-will brigade are correct God caused Adam to sin then blamed him for it. What nonsense is this? Do they really expect us to believe mankind has been suffering, up to the present, under the curse and it wasn't a man's fault (as Scripture says) but God's doing all along!
---Warwick on 12/1/13


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You have no clue what you are saying, because every believer is Saved by Grace through faith, And what that means is that we are under the New Covenant.... His salvation is Irresistible.
There is no resisting this work of grace for salvation.
Mark_V.

I read the words of the promise of the New Covenant and I am saved by Grace alone through faith alone. You ignore scripture.

Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jhn 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

You teach limited atonement. But these are the words of JESUS. No where is grace declared irresistible.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/1/13


MarkV: The Bible says that Eve CHOSE to believe Satan rather than God. The result has been disastrous. Do you believe that? If so then how could she not have made the decision of her own FREE WILL? Do you actually believe that God caused her to go against Him? Do you see how ridiculous your predestination paradigm is?




---jerry6593 on 12/1/13


Samuel, you now speak of the tulip. You say,
"You follow Irresistible Grace which is force." You have no clue what you are saying, because every believer is Saved by Grace through faith, And what that means is that we are under the New Covenant. God does not mention He ask permission. His salvation is irrestable. Here is what He says,
".. Then I shall give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me forever, for the good of them and their children after them. And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from doing them good, but I will put My fear in their hearts, so that they will not depart from Me." There is no resisting this work of grace for salvation.
---Mark_V. on 12/1/13


If God has to CHANGE your heart first before you can respond to Christ, it's not FAITH. The idea in Romans 4, concerning Abraham, says, in circumcision or not in circumcision? Answer..not in circumcision. And the SEAL of circumcision was AFTER, just like the SEAL of the Holy Spirit is AFTER.

The Holy Spirit CONVICTS of sin right there while you are neck deep IN sin. And it's this conviction that the heart cries out for forgiveness.

If your heart has already been changed, and you believing you were given a new heart first to respond, is putting the cart before the horse.

It's like saying Noah was given the ability to see the new earth before the flood, and only obeyed because of what he saw first. That's not faith OR TRUE.
---kathr4453 on 12/1/13


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Samuel, God doesn't force anyone, He makes them able to respond to Christ by changing their hearts. He does not make anyone sin, they sin because they are sinners. Why do you not understand that. He also does not save everyone. Mark_V.

I agree with your post especially this part. I understand He does not save everyone. You follow Irresistible Grace which is force. Christian stated and I thought you agreed with him that GOD causes people to sin. That only the will of GOD is done in this world. So are you leaving TULIP and starting to accept that GOD calls all?
---Samuelbb7 on 11/29/13


Nana, great passage you gave from (Micah 6) in the context, God was talking to Israel. And guess what? They disobeyed God, the reason they are condemned. They broke the law of God.

---Mark_V. on 11/29/13

Wow now Markv thinks the LAW could save, rather than show Israel they too were sinners just like all the Gentiles. The Law was the school master to bring them to Christ. Jesus fulfilled the law by taking ALL our condemnation bioth Jew and GENTILE?
Original sin is why ALL are condemned to death...Dahhhhhh. HEBREWS 2
---kathr4453 on 11/29/13


"No one can come to Me unless the Father who send Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:45) It is written in the prophets. "And they shall all be taught by God" Those that God draws to Himself are taught by God.
---Mark_V. on 11/29/13

Mark,

It does not say those who God draws to himself, that is your own scripture, here is what scripture says:

"Everyone WHO listens TO THE FATHER and learns FROM HIM(Father) comes to me 6:45(JHN)
---Ruben on 11/29/13


"They disobeyed God, the reason they are condemned."
---Mark_V. on 11/29/13

There is no substance to your comments.
The 'condemned' are those who await execution but, what did they get? A savior came to them, as promised.
Did that promise brought by their saviour expire, is not anymore valid? No, it is still valid as Paul clearly says,
Romans 11:23 "And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again."

"(John 6:45) where it tells us that some are taught by God"
Lisa

The true saying is ALL, "And they shall be all taught of God."
Your time is up, adios.
---Nana on 11/29/13


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Nana, great passage you gave from (Micah 6) in the context, God was talking to Israel. And guess what? They disobeyed God, the reason they are condemned. They broke the law of God.
And the passage you gave in (John 6:45) where it tells us that some are taught by God, those people are the ones mentioned in (John 6:44).
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who send Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:45) It is written in the prophets. "And they shall all be taught by God" Those that God draws to Himself are taught by God.
---Mark_V. on 11/29/13


Samuel, -----He does not make anyone sin, they sin because they are sinners.
---Mark_V. on 11/28/13

Which again brings you to Adam and Eve and the Angels. They did not sin because they were sinners, and God did not make them sin.

They were fine, UNTIL they were tempted. They obeyed UNTIL Satan came along and put doubt in Eve's mind that God had lied. As sinless creatures, Eve was drawn away by "her own" lust and desires. And that lust within brought forth sin unto death. God created man with free will, also knew with free will man would sin. Why, because the angels had already demonstrated it. But with humans, unlike the angels who could not be redeemed, God also secured a plan of salvation for humans.
---kathr4453 on 11/29/13


Micah 6:2_8 "Hear ye, O mountains, the LORD's controversy, and ye strong foundations of the earth: for the LORD hath a controversy with his people, and he will plead with Israel.
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good, and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?"


John 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."

"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?"

This is how it is.
---Nana on 11/28/13


If a man says he has faith in me as an investor, and I told him to invest in Gold ten years ago, Does that mans faith have any value if he did not do what I told him to do?

But if that man has done what I have told him to do over the last ten years, he has profited much, and that mans faith in my investment advice over those years, has made his faith in my advice perfect.

Those who have faith in the words of Jesus Christ and do what he tells them to do, will also have a great reward.

Read it for yourself in (Romans 2:6-7) & (James 2:14-26).


---David on 11/28/13


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Samuel, God doesn't force anyone, He makes them able to respond to Christ by changing their hearts. He does not make anyone sin, they sin because they are sinners. Why do you not understand that. He also does not save everyone.
What He did do was create a plan. Nothing in the plan is going to change. The Jews so far as their own liberty was concernied, might have broken Christ bones, yet in reality it was not possible for them to have done so, for it was written "A bone of Him shall not be broken" (Ps. 34:20: John 19:36) God's decrees does not take away man's liberty. Jesus Christ was "foreknown as a sacrifice for sin before the foundation of the world"
God designed it that way.
---Mark_V. on 11/28/13


Are judged by faith or our works?

Abraham's faith, was credited with righteousness.
When did this accrediting occur, before or after he placed his son Isaac on the alter?

If it was before, his faith was not by works.
If it was done after, his faith was shown by his works.
Read it for yourself in (Hebrews 11:17-19).
---David on 11/27/13


Well said, Peter. Faith and works are like two oars in a small boat. If you only use one, you just go in circles. And, the power behind each is freely given by Christ.



---jerry6593 on 11/27/13


Remember the parable of the sheep and the goats
---James on 11/26/13


Indeed...lets remember all scriptures pertaining to both. But, how will you identify them?
Perhaps they will never, ever dare to quote a prophet of the sheep?

Mat_10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat_15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Luk_15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
Luk_15:6 ....he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost.
---Trav on 11/27/13


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//We are ordered to do both (read James)//
James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Who's speaking, who is he speaking to?
---michael_e on 11/27/13


We are ordered to do both (read James)

Why do we argue things - the Bible tells us to do both

If we fail in either, we fail God

So do both
---Peter on 11/26/13


Remember the parable of the sheep and the goats
---James on 11/26/13


Well MarkV and Christian since we are forced to be saved by the will of GOD. Why did JESUS have to die on the Cross?

Why did JESUS have to be born a human being and live here on earth? Why did GOD force men to torture His son? Since it is all force and power and no call of love why are their evangelistic calls and why do you argue here?
---Samuelbb7 on 11/26/13


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Rev 12:10 ...Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
2Pet 2:11-12 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not, and shall utterly perish in their own corruption,
Acts 5:38-39 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it, lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
---micha9344 on 11/26/13


Kathr, you say its NOT about election, or no free will, or limited atonement, or total depravity"
The passage:
For the message of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us, who are being saved it is the power of God" (1 Cor. 1:18).
The gospel Truth is foolishness to those who are perishing. The unsaved, then says,
but to us", he is speaking of himself and those being saved "It's limited" to him and those being saved because it came to them in power. Who are they? "The elect."
"Knowing beloved brehtren, your election by God. For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also with power and the Holy Spirit.." (1 Thess. 1:4,5).
---Mark_V. on 11/26/13


I Tim. 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

1Ti 2:3-6
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour,
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

MarkV and others you say these verses are false. On what basis do you say this?
---Samuelbb7 on 11/26/13


//"Now we know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is a worshipper of God and does His will, He hears him" (John 9:31).//

Ok, so let's clarify what "DOING" God's will is, before God can hear you Markv. Doesn't scripture say that the will of God is to believe on His Son Jesus Christ?

So then, those who believe on Jesus ARE doing God's will, and God hears them.

Are you "doing" God's will Markv?

And listening and hearing are two different things. People here may hear you Markv, but no one is listening.....get it?
---kathr4453 on 11/26/13


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What is "are been saved" mean?

Markv has no more idea what the preaching of the cross is than the man in the moon.

The preaching of the cross is NOT about election, or no free will, or limited atonement, or total depravity.

Paul said ,God forbid that I would preach anything but CHRIST and Him CRUCIFIED, who goes on to say, I am crucified with Christ, no longer I but Christ in me, the HOPE of GLORY.

That I may KNOW Him and the fellowship of his sufferings....Being made conformable to his death

Keeping this mind in you that was also in Christ...who became obedient unto death.

Does Markv REALLY preach the cross? NO, all this IS foolishness to him, as he has stated time and again.
---kathr4453 on 11/26/13


Scott 1, I was speaking about the passages in (Romans 1:18-22).
Second, God's word does go out to many, but only those who are been saved will receive the gospel with power and the Holy Spirit. The rest "suppress the Truth in unrigheousness, because what may be known of God "is menifested in them"
Yet God does not listen to the unsaved. Even the guy who was blind knew the Truth,
"Now we know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is a worshipper of God and does His will, He hears him" (John 9:31).You see Scott,
"For the message of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God" (1 Cor. 1:18).
---Mark_V. on 11/26/13


We do know Cornelius was not saved, however those prayers came before God. We see AFTER Peter was sent to preach the Gospel to Cornelius, he and his household were saved.

So Cornelius proves man is not so totally depraved that he has no clue God even existed. Something of God was manifest in the conscience of Cornelius. BUT he had to HEAR the Gospel message first to bring about salvation.

If the King of Nineveh didn't believe through reports the God of Jonah was telling the truth, the king would have laughed in Jonah's face. That didn't happen. They repented, and God turned away his wrath. Something of the TRUE God was manifest in the conscience of the king of Nineveh.
---kathr4453 on 11/26/13


Our works are judged by if they are done in "faith working through love." (in Galatians 5:6) Without love it profits us nothing > 1 Corinthians 13.

James says "faith without works is dead," in James 2:26. And his examples of works are >

James 2:14-17 > helping a needy person,

James 2:18-24 > putting God first, by sacrificing anything or anyone for Him,

James 2:25-26 > helping God's servants.

Each involves personal loving, personal communication.
---willie_c: on 11/25/13


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//The passage no where says, God spoke to them. "Because what may be known of God is manifested in them.//

markV - This is my interpretation, if I can suppress something I have to have it first. Therefore God speaks to the unbeliever then the person suppresses or accepts God's call.
Every thing has a cause and effect that is inescapable even for God. "For God so loved (cause) ... he gave (effect) his only son."
---Scott1 on 11/25/13


Marks, yes men have freely will for a cause...cause God made us that way.
---shira4368 on 11/25/13


Scott 1, why don't you understand there's no such thing? Free will is a self-contradictory concept. When people make choices there is always a cause. Look up the concept of "cause and effect"
When a persons will makes a choice there is always a cause, the will is never free when it makes a choice. You say:
"According to your theology God does not speak at all to the unsaved." That's right. Without Christ you cannot come before God. Then say: But your verse here shows that is not the case because the unbeliever suppresses or rejects the truth that God spoke to them.
The passage no where says, God spoke to them. "Because what may be known of God is manifested in them.
---Mark_V. on 11/25/13


//They are guilty because they suppress the Truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifested in them for God has shown it to them.//

how is that not free will MarkV? ...they (the unsaved)suppress the Truth (God's salvation) after God has "... shown it to them" According to your theology God does not speak at all to the unsaved. But your verse here shows that is not the case because the unbeliever suppresses or rejects the truth that God spoke to them.
---Scott1 on 11/25/13


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Ruben, you now say:
"But according to your doctrine the unbelievers are already doom for they were not of the elect(chosen) and according to your doctrine unbelievers can not call on God because they can not see or hear, so what are they being judge for since God did not chose them?" Ruben, you say according to me, NO, according to Scripture. Did you not read (Rom. 1:18-22)?
They are guilty because they suppress the Truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifested in them for God has shown it to them. Because although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Is that a good reason for you Ruben?
---Mark_V. on 11/25/13


MarkV: You give much opinion, but no scripture to support your allegations. So, naturally I will have to ignore them.

The Law of Liberty is the Ten Commandments which you are FREE to obey of your own FREE WILL. Since sin is defined as the transgression of this Law (1John 3:4), obedience to it FREES you from its consequences.



---jerry6593 on 11/25/13


James 1:21 "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls."
Notice that 'laying apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness' is an act apart from receiving "the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls"

James adds a prerogative advice, "But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves."
He repeats in verse 1:25 the importance of living the word as Jesus taught, Matthew 7:23_29. God does not enable anyone to obey him as seen clearly by, "be ye doers" (James) and "whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them" (Jesus).
---Nana on 11/24/13


There is also "the Great White Throne of Judgment" where unbelievers, the unsaved, go for sentencing. They include those who try to get into heaven by their own works, and not by faith in Jesus Christ.
---Mark_V. on 11/23/13

But according to your doctrine the unbelievers are already doom for they were not of the elect(chosen) and according to your doctrine unbelievers can not call on God because they can not see or hear, so what are they being judge for since God did not chose them?
---Ruben on 11/24/13


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Jerry, the "Law of Liberty" means genuine freedom from sin and the condemnation of it. As the Holy Spirit applies the principles of Scripture to believers hearts, they are freed from sin's bondage and enabled to obey God (John 8:34-36).
For believers in Christ do not go to the Great White Throne of Judgment. Only those without Christ go there. We are also not judged by our faith, since God bestows that faith to every believer. All is the work of God's grace for the believer.
At the Great White Throne of Judgment, books will be open, and they will receive their sentence for all they did in life against God. And God will give them a just sentence. They are already guilty and condemned.
---Mark_V. on 11/24/13


John 6:29
Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent".

Rom 4:5
"But to him who does not work (righteousness by works of the law) but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,"

Faith and works go hand in hand. Through our works of believing on Jesus we show our faith.
---Haz27 on 11/23/13


josef:

Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
---jerry6593 on 11/23/13


Grandma, you are correct, there is "the Judgment Seat of Christ," where believers receive their rewards and lose rewards.
There is also "the Great White Throne of Judgment" where unbelievers, the unsaved, go for sentencing. They include those who try to get into heaven by their own works, and not by faith in Jesus Christ.
---Mark_V. on 11/23/13


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jerry6593 wrote:"Grandma: "I always thought there were two judgments."

Where do you find that in scripture?"

Actually, there are not two judgements, but two resurrections. Blessed are those that rise in the first resurrection.





---
---Steveng on 11/22/13


"Are we judged by our faith or our works?" Neither.
"He that rejects [Jesus], and receives not [His] words, has one that judges him: the word that [He has] spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." Jhn 12:48
For "In [that] day God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to [His] gospel." Rom 2:16
Therefore the "Works" judged in Rev. 20:12 & 13 is the inward motive that resulted in the outward act of rejecting both Jesus and His word of salvation.
---josef on 11/22/13


Grandma: "I always thought there were two judgments."

Where do you find that in scripture?




---jerry6593 on 11/22/13


James 2:26 - For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead,

( Faith and works go hand and hand together, But those works does not save a person, Refer - Titus 3:5 - Galatains 2:16 - By grace is a person Saved - and that's a gift of God )
---RICHARDC on 11/22/13


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Blogger, you obviously have not read in the Scriptures,

"Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt." Romans 4:4, "And if by grace, then it is no longer of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace, otherwise work is no longer work." Romans 11:6

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Romans 3:20, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." Romans 10:4

Depending on your works is eternal death. But believing in Christ alone is eternal life.
---christan on 11/22/13


I always thought there were two judgments. One, for our faith, and one for our works. One determines our eternal destination. The other determines the jewels in our crown, which we throw to his feet.
---Grandma on 11/22/13


Scott1,
excellent answer, especially the gnashing of teeth.

I would add that the question needs to be qualified a little.

"Are we judged" is fair, but not sufficient. We must add "to what end"

Christ bore our sins, taking our punishment upon Himself. There will be no judgment to eternal punishment for those who rely wholly upon Him

but by our faith full of works will we be rewarded, or suffer loss if we are found unfaithful
---James_L on 11/22/13


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