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What is Christian Love

Does Christian love have degrees, as in "I love them a little" or "I love them a lot?" Or is the love always the same intensity?

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 ---Geraldine on 11/25/13
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Shira, Predestination is of God, comes from God and is found in the Word of God. You don't like that kind of salvation, you like the free will salvation. Lets see, you were heading to hell, without hope, under the curse, condemned already, but God who is rich in mercy and because of His Great love, takes you out of that path that you could not get away from, and gives you life, and you don't like that. you want to have the right to choose Christ if you want, if not, you want to continue on your trip to hell, well then go for it. Refuse His mercy, and go ahead and continue the path you were in. No one is stopping you. In fact no one can stop you but God.
---Mark_V. on 12/8/13


Christan * Christ preached against "freewill" by declaring,Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." John 6:44,65 - how do you wedgie your freewill to what Christ has declared?

The very next verse thats how! " Everyone who listens to the Father and learns form him comes to me."


Christian* Here's the warning, "But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 10:33

Ironic, the warning is a choose to make, either you believe in him or deny him, sounds like a freewill to me:)
---Ruben on 12/8/13


kathr, Christian promotes a false doctrine. no one I know has reduced Christ down to anything. God can do anything he wants to but this predestined heresy you promote is not Godly. maybe God will forgive you for promoting heresy.
---shira4368 on 12/8/13


You believe in the freewill christ, good for you.
---christan on 12/7/13

What a sad day when Jesus Christ is now reduced to be called a " Free will Christ, or a no free will Christ.

Scripture never defines Jesus in this way.

We preach Christ Crucified.....to the Calvinists, a stumbling block.
---kathr4453 on 12/8/13


Elder, it must be pretty terrible to know that for so many years, you have been preaching a false doctrine. And you cannot stand anyone telling you, even at the expense of the souls of so many you have taught wrong. here you say,
"Where would the mercy of God be if He made one to go to Hell with no chance to be Saved" Every descendant of Adam is under the curse, condemned already, heading to hell. It is because of God's great mercy that He took you out of that path to hell. That is mercy. At a great expense, the death of His Own Son, Jesus Christ. Now that is mercy and love for those He saves.
You should be jumping for joy that He had mercy on you and saved you, instead of been mad and those who tell you the Truth.
---Mark_V. on 12/8/13




anonymous, you say: Please take a step back and look at the shame you both have created over a subject you have turned into dogma. It's embarrassing.
---Anonymous on 12/7/13"

Of course no one likes to hear that it is God who saves. You would love us to leave, and not speak the Truth to you. Only those who believe in "free will" will feel the shame. None of you like it. your free will sounds better to you then to hear it was God who had mercy on you while you were heading to hell. At least free will, will give you something to glory about. Because God cannot force you to be saved, He needs your permission. That is a false gospel, and a false god. He does not need anyone's permission, He has mercy on whom He has mercy.
---Mark_V. on 12/8/13


"Please take a step back and look at the shame you both have created over a subject you have turned into dogma. It's embarrassing." Anonymous

Shame? Embarrass? About how salvation came to the heart of a sinner? NEVER!

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." Romans 1:16

"For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him." 2 Corinthians 11:4

You believe in the freewill christ, good for you.
---christan on 12/7/13


Anonymous, do you know why Paul "never argued about freewill"? There was nothing to argue for he preached against it in all his epistles.

Christ preached against "freewill" by declaring, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." John 6:44,65 - how do you wedgie your freewill to what Christ has declared?

Here's the warning, "But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 10:33
---christan on 12/7/13


MarkV you are no challange to anyone by any means. Now, please get out of my mirror.

Christian, you need to study the life of Paul with open eyes. Then you will see where he became subject to the call of God. He was not forced to respond. He was called by the Love of God. He was not forced by the power of God.
Calvary is level for everyone. Salvation is free and the same for everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord. Too bad you and MarkV don't realize that!
Where would the mercy of God be if He made one to go to Hell with no chance to be Saved.
---Elder on 12/7/13


-christan Good point "Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ BY THE WILL OF GOD..." 2 Corinthians 1:1, How many people did Jesus offer that ministry to before Paul? He offer it to Peter but he turned it down. You remember the table the was set before Peter in the dream. Out of all the plants in the universe God choose the third plant from the sun. So he has already choose us he is just waiting for us to come to him. Paul said I have come to the understand of who I am in Christ Jesus. We all have been chosen and all been given, Why do you think his judgment going to be so hard on unbelievers. Cause they chose not to believe.
---BRYAN on 12/7/13




I see on every site here the exact argument and mud slinging over the same subject....free will.

Christian and Mark, no Paul never argued over this subject in any of his epistles.
The two of you have brought so much arguing on to a Christian site, and have brought shame to Christianity.
Please take a step back and look at the shame you both have created over a subject you have turned into dogma. It's embarrassing.
---Anonymous on 12/7/13


Being called to be "an apostle" is not the same as salvation. Millions of saved are not called to be apostles.

So Christan, again your scripture is totally out of context.

Not everyone in Israel was called to be King either.

So unless it says called to be saved by the will of God, which it does not, then get a life Christan. We're bored to death over your rantings.
---kathr4453 on 12/7/13


"You are the most wicked person that has ever posted on C/N. Does that make you proud?" Elder

Did Paul, aka Saul, who was on his way to persecute and kill Christians, at anytime in his life pleaded with the Lord to save him or to even strike him down and blind him on his way to Damascus? Did Paul or any of the apostles even wrote that it was because of their freewill that they chose the Lord to be saved? Well?

Please read: "Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ BY THE WILL OF GOD..." 2 Corinthians 1:1

Doesn't this make your freewill a wicked doctrine as far as the Word of God goes with regards to the salvation of a sinner? Who's the wicked and proud one?
---christan on 12/6/13


Elder, you were not use to anyone challenging you, and when I did, it brought out the real you out. I know you have friends on CN.
But my answers have come from the word of God. Your words come from your mouth towards me and my family, even including my wife. And you talk about me being wicked. Look in the mirrow and you will see wicked looking back at you.
God saved me by Grace through faith. I didn't have to do anything. My salvation was not by my own works, or my own words. It was all of God. And you call me wicked for that? Thank you again for showing the real you.
---Mark_V. on 12/7/13


Anyone who knows the structure of any book, letter, etc, always know the opening sentence is the SUBJECT of the whole, and the ending CONCLUDES , summarizes the whole.

And as you just posted, ISRAEL is the subject....going on to chapter 10, again, ISRAEL is the subject of their rejection, and chapter 11 concludes,again ISRAEL and how inspite of all, God is still going to keep His promises to them....and how the gentile need not be puffed up and arrogant in God's dealing with Israel, His ELECT, showing first in ch 9 how God "put down the gentile pharaoh" and in the end will "put down gentile nations" who come against Israel then too. It's all spelled out again in Zechariah 12-14, Isaiah 14, and more and more places.
---kathr4453 on 12/7/13


Conclusion of Romans 9-11

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, THEY, ISRAEL are beloved for the father's sakes..

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

It's not rocket science.
---kathr4453 on 12/7/13


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Romans 9 is just about Israel's past? How does one come to a single conclusion with 33 verses written?

Verses 1-5: Paul opens his epistle about his heavy burden for his fellow Israelites.

Verses 6-8: He then reveals that there's two kinds of "Israel", a fleshly and a spiritual, and it's the latter that's considered God's children.

Verses 9-13: Two individual lives are revealed in the sovereign election of God and explicitly tells us that it was unconditional when God chose one to love and the other to hate

Verses 14-33: God's sovereignty is revealed in fullness that He has the right to do as He pleases with lives He created.
---christan on 12/6/13


samuelbb7, read carefully the words that were written by Paul, "Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?" Romans 9:21

Did Paul say anywhere here or Romans 9 that "people will choose to live in sin and deny GOD"? Don't say what the Bible does not say. That tantamount to bearing false witness against the Word of God.

Furthermore, Peter explicitly declared, "...even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed" 1 Peter 2:8

Guess who appointed unbelievers to be disobedient? Most definitely not the unbelievers themselves.
---christan on 12/6/13


MarkV, it is mental with you. You don't have any idea or remember what you say or said. This is not the first time you have done this.
You call people liars and other hateful names and then wonder why they respond to you like they do.
It is you who said no one can tell if they are saved or not. Then you post who is saved or not.
You must have a god complex.
You even said you never asked the Lord to save you in direct rebellion against Rom 10:13 and others.
You are the most wicked person that has ever posted on C/N. Does that make you proud?
---Elder on 12/6/13


GOD made all people. As the verse says. Many people will choose to live in sin and deny GOD. So they are vessels made for wrath.

But the Bible does not say that GOD commands them or makes them live in sin. Your view Christian makes GOD force people to commit sin. Your teaching TULIP. Is way above what the verse you support says.

So according to you GOD made people to sin which sin is against the will of GOD. So GOD made people to go against His will which is His will.

Seems like a contradiction.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/6/13


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Yes, and the potter and clay is ANOTHER that Paul reiterates, quoting from the OT concerning Israel THE NATION.

Romans 9 - Israel's PAST
Romans 10- Israel's PRESENT
Romans 11 - Israel's FUTURE
---kathr4453 on 12/6/13


O for goodness, stick to the context of Romans 9 - which is God's sovereignty in election - which I know you hate with all your heart and mind of this Truth that Paul speaks about explicitly.

"Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction." Romans 9:21,22

Isn't Paul explicitly referring to God's sovereign right to create one for honour and another for dishonour? Wasn't Paul using Jacob and Esau to expound on this matter?

"Corporate head of Israel" - ya right!
---christan on 12/6/13


12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: ---.

13 And, behold, the Lord stood above it, and said, I am the Lord God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed,

14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

15 And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land, for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.
---kathr4453 on 12/6/13


Genesis 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels, and the one people shall be stronger than the other people, and the elder shall serve the younger.

Just like christan to give HALF the verse and then have the audacity to say...God ONLY said the elder will serve the younger.

Jacob = the NATION OF ISRAEL.

The NATION of Israel stumbled and fell, because they rejected Christ Crucified, to them as well as you is a stone of stumbling and rock of offense. They put more faith in their own election than the Savior.
---kathr4453 on 12/5/13


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"God chose Jacob to be the corporate head of Israel to filfill the promises given to Abraham" - seriously, is that what Paul was trying to expound in Romans 9? "corporate head of Israel"??? Wow!!!

How right Paul was when he wrote "(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear,) unto this day."

All Paul wrote was "It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger." which has no semblance to anything about "corporate Israel" but rather the fact that God has predestined the lives of the twins, period. One a vessel of honour and the other, dishonour.
---christan on 12/4/13


No problem here that God chose Jacob to be the corporate head of Israel to filfill the promises given to Abraham. Too bad the birthright couldn't be split in half. Hay, then Isaac and Ishmael could have split it too! and walla! what a mess. Just like any family inheritances , all end in disaster when all the siblings get involved fighting over this or that. But God made it very clear who HE chose to inherit the birthright fulfilling HIS, God's promises.

Even Jacob inherited original sin and still needed a savior.

So when any false Christ comes along claiming to be Christ, God made it very clear WHO and through who, ((ISRAEL)),Jesus came, so that ALL families of the earth could be blessed. PRAISE GOD.
---kathr4453 on 12/4/13


Christan, you are right brother:
"Some seriously have a problem with the Word even though it's written clearly in b/w for all to see." The word of God is clear, they just don't want to hear it. Yet, they insert "free will" to give themselves something to boast about. They don't believe they are depraved.
"For the word of the cross is to them that parish foolishness, but unto us who are saved it is the power of God" ((1 Cor. 1:18) why?
"There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, And yet are not washed of their filthiness" (Pro. 30:12). They believe that with their own free will they can walk from darkness into the light.
---Mark_V. on 12/4/13


1 Corinthians 15:54-57

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.

57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

OT saints looked forward to the cross, just as Jacob himself did. Jacob was saved just as you and I placing his faith in the coming redeemer. He was not saved by his birthright.
---kathr4453 on 12/4/13


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Christian, you are still taking God's Word out of context. almost everyone has given you scripture exposing your lies. you contradicted your own self when you say man has a choice to sin. to begin with, we, men that means people are born in sin. even you with your pious attitude was born a sinner. just a simple well known verse...john 3:16 FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD THAT HE SENT HIS ONLY SON TO REDEEM MAN.
---shira4368 on 12/4/13


"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth... As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." Romans 9:11,13

Some seriously have a problem with the Word even though it's written clearly in b/w for all to see. And that is, God declared that His love toward Jacob was unconditional, period. Guess what, isn't than God's hate similar in tone to His eternal love?

And where's that "precious freewill" even in existence? Till now, you keep talking of your "precious freewill" without even an explicit verse from the Bible that backs that outrageous lie.
---christan on 12/3/13


Elder, your problem stems from the very fact that you don't believe that mankind are born "dead in trespass and sins". This includes the Christians until God comes "calling". That's why we're explicitly told, "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God."

When the man sins, he wilfully does it because his will is in bondage to sin from day one. "So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."

Something MUST happen to the sinner, "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

And this has nothing to do with your freewill but God's will.
---christan on 12/3/13


Christan wants us to believe God hates without a cause, trying to prove some twisted self made up definition of free will only God has. That God's FREE WILL, that is God, without any CAUSE, hated Esau.

But what and where is the EFFECT?

Wasn't it their definition that FREE WILL included, it had an "effect" Or am I mistaken? God has the free will to CAUSE without an EFFECT? Or God has the free will to hate without a cause, but is also without effect...


Oh help me here, I'm trying to figure out what FREE WILL IS, that only God has.

Ok, so God can choose to do anything He wants just because He wants to anytime He wants to, without having any basis for doing it , just because He's God and can???
---kathr4453 on 12/3/13


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Elder, you do not have to sin by lying.
You say:
"Com'on now.... by what power did he choose to sin?" Sin within him.
Then say:" You have continued to post that mankind does not have a choice." I never posted man didn't have a choice, I posted that the unsave never makes a choice for Christ. I give Scripture,
"There is none who understands, there is none who seek after God" (Rom. 3:11).
Then say: " So, how can you say Samuel choose to sin?" because he did choose to sin, just like you did just now when you lied. Paul called it "sin within". We can walk in the flesh or walk in the Spirit. When you responded me, you chose to walk in the flesh and sin.
---Mark_V. on 12/3/13


"(Samuel).... you chose to sin against God all by yourself. God knew you would.
Mark_V.

Com'on now.... by what power did he choose to sin? You have continued to post that mankind does not have a choice. So, how can you say Samuel choose to sin?

You can't have it both ways!!
---Elder on 12/2/13


"But why does God hate Esau? The author of Hebrews gives us a hint" Ruben

O please, Hebrews 12:16-17 does not imply that God hated Esau because of those sins mentioned. That would then make God's love conditional instead of unconditional as declared by Paul in Romans 9:11,

"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth"

Even if it was "conditional", do you seriously think that Jacob was without sins? Are you without sin and that was the reason why God "chose" you? If you're without sin, you can be sure Christ never died for you.
---christan on 12/2/13


Samuel, you say that God hates sin, then turn around and give (Gal. 5:19-11) putting down the sins God hates. Then you yourself say,
"GOD hates those who choose this life." If you know that, why do you choose that life? Because you then say,
" You teach GOD makes them choose this life and refuses to offer them hope." I have never taught such things you said to anyone. You know for sure God hates sin, so why do you sin against God?
Then say,
" I Scripture says GOD is love. You disagree with scripture." I have never disagreed that God's nature is love. Again you sin and lied. Did God make you lie? I don't think so, you chose to sin against God all by yourself. God knew you would.
---Mark_V. on 12/2/13


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GOD hates sin.

Gal 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these, Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

GOD hates those who choose this life. You teach GOD makes them choose this life and refuses to offer them hope. Scripture says GOD is love. You disagree with scripture.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/1/13


Jed, it does bring glory to Jesus Christ when a Christian exposes a lie about the Truth of the gospel. Paul mentions:
"For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, and Truth, finding out what is acceptable to the Lord. And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them" (Eph. 5:9-11).
What matters is what we do with the Truth. Personal hatred should be put aside. Kathr has constantly spoke against the Truth and we are call to expose people who speak against the Truth.
---Mark_V. on 12/1/13


"hate" with God is to love less. Jesus also uses the word hate, to hate your mother and father. He is literally not telling you to hate, as you understand hate, your mother, father sister brother. He is saying to love them LESS than you love Christ. You can't hate yours parents and honor your parents.
The fulfillment of the "Nation " To represent God on earth, and to be a LIGHT to the nations was a promise given to Abraham and HIS descendants. God chose Jacob, Abraham's grandson, over Esau, Abraham's other grandson and renamed Jacob ISRAEL, to be HIS representative people on earth, and to fulfill the promise of the Messiah through THAT nation, more specifically Judah, stated in Genesis 49. ****
---kathr4453 on 12/1/13


God said to Abraham, "through you" will ALL families/ nations of the world be blessed. So here, let's get down to some serious study. Paul again reiterates this in Galatians. Paul certainly isn't teaching Abraham is Christ. We know only through Christ can one be saved. So now we have 2 "THROUGH YOU's. "
So Christan, if it was a matter of God just picking and choosing no such comment was necessary concerning Abraham.."through you"., or covenant with Abraham was necessary. So what then did God mean when He said to Abraham, THROUGH YOU?

You see Christan, in the Abrahamic Covenant of which YOU have salvation, no such doctrine is taught of limited atonement. ALL families means just that.
---kathr4453 on 12/1/13


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Conclusion: so now we see in Galatians, the greatest book on GRACE, that Paul takes you back to Abraham, and the Covenant God made with Abraham. This is called the Abrahamic Covenant, and this covenant alone establishes the WAY of salvation. Also Romans 4. In Galatians, Jacob is not mentioned once, here or anywhere else concerning salvation.

A false doctrine called the Covenant of Grace, or covenant Calvinism, using Jacob as the foundation of a "covenant of election " is not found in scripture concerning salvation.

The Abrahamic Covenant and the false covenant of grace as described by Calvinists are in complete opposition.

I'm sticking with the Abrahamic Covenant.
---kathr453 on 12/1/13


christan * "As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." You mean there's another meaning to what is "love and hate"?

But why does God hate Esau? The author of Hebrews gives us a hint:

"See that no one is sexually immoral or is godless like esau"(Heb 12:16-17

christan *All I see and understand is the god you profess to believe in does not hate but loves everyone in the world. Too bad for you, it's definitely not the same God that Paul's talking about.

Remember God hates all abominations,such things are not loved by those who fear him....He has not commanded anyone to be wicked, and he has not given anyone permission to sin."( Ess 15:11-20)
---Ruben on 12/1/13



\\You don't KNOW IT ALL. \\

And you know very little, Kathr.

But many know more than you do.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

---Cluny on 11/30/13


Wow! What an intelligent come-back! And the way that comment really does bring glory to Jesus Christ! NOT!

#LAME.
---Jed on 11/30/13


Cluny, the humor of your statement is how you have, without coming right out and saying so, exalted your own self as a know it all.

Your comment just backfired on you.LOL
---Anonymous on 11/30/13


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Who has ever denied that God "chose Israel", "to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises"?

But you seem to have a huge problem that in salvation, God was only going to save the individuals He has elected and not the nation Israel as a whole which you implicate.

And that's precisely why Paul had to write the epistles for our understanding to God's purpose and will, which He graciously revealed to the apostle. And Romans 9 is explicit about salvation to an individual known as Jacob and not a nation.
---christan on 11/30/13


Is there another meaning or interpretation even needed to understand what Paul wrote in Romans 9? Let alone verses 11-13? Doesn't it says what it says? Or for any part of the Bible?

What's there to even interpret when God declared, "As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." You mean there's another meaning to what is "love and hate"?

All I see and understand is the god you profess to believe in does not hate but loves everyone in the world. Too bad for you, it's definitely not the same God that Paul's talking about.
---christan on 11/30/13


\\You don't KNOW IT ALL. \\

And you know very little, Kathr.

But many know more than you do.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/30/13


Yes Christan ISRAEL IS GOD's chosen NATION.

As you continue to read through to the end of Romans 11, it ends with God's promise to ISRAEL.

And that arrogant little Gentiles like yourself, need to watch your attitude concerning God's plan and purpose in the end for Israel.

So for once humble yourself and stop acting like a KNOW IT ALL.

You don't KNOW IT ALL.

Exercise your mind to be able to comprehend more than one verse at a time. Learn to read the WHOLE of Romand 9-11, and ask The Lord to teach you what it all means.
---kathr4453 on 11/30/13


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Kathr, you give:
" But again says Isaiah 14, I will again CHOOSE Jacob. How can God AGAIN choose an individual person who is dead..."

You mention Isaiah 14, but (Rom. 9:10-12) is from Malachi 1:1,2,3)
"I have loved you, says the Lord Yet you say, in what way have You loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? But Esau I have hated, and laid the mountains and His heritage. For jackals of the wilderness. Even though Edom has said, we have been impoverished, but we will return and build the desolated places. Yet the Lord says, They may build, but I will throw down. They shall be called the territory of Wickedness, And the people against whom the Lord will have indignation forever"
---Mark_V. on 11/30/13


What a load of crap! If Jacob that was mentioned in Romans was referring to a nation in specific, wouldn't Paul say "Israel the nation" instead of "Jacob have I loved but Esau have I hated"?

It's obvious Paul in Romans 9 was referring to the twins and not the nation called Israel as you say. He explicitly wrote, "For the children being not yet born..." and did not say anywhere "the nation". Paul was explicit in saying "the purpose of God according to election".

So for goodness sake, stick to the context of Romans 9, which is the election of God in the twins known as Jacob and Esau.
---christan on 11/30/13


Christan, only Adam and Eve were CREATED. YOU WERE NOT INDIVIDUALLY CREATED. THAT IS HERESY.

Romans 9 -11 is again quoted from the OT. Jacob I loved, Esau I hated is in Malachi, and again reiterates ISRAEL and EDOM the NATIONS, and again in Genesis when Rebecca was carrying twins The Lord said to her IN YOUR womb is TWO NATIONS

NONE OF THESE VERSES REFER TO INDIVIDUALS..... Or individual salvation.

It had to do with the fact that ISRAEL had "preeminence" over the other nations as God's chosen people/nation to bring in the messiah.

And Romans 9-11 reiterate God's promises to HIS ELECT ISRAEL of being grafted back in.

Not everything is about YOU.
---kathr4453 on 11/30/13


Isaiah 14

14 For the Lord will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.

So what year was Isaiah written? How many years after Jacob the person died?

So, Christan, do you belong to the house of Jacob? Or do you just cleave to the house of Jacob?

Where does Paul teach the CHURCH cleaves to the house of Jacob, or even IS the house of Jacob?

So, do you have your passage back to the LAND too?

If perhaps you understood Scripture, and the foundations laid out, Jacob does NOT represent in any way Jesus Christ. Nor is Jesus and the church referred to as the House of Jacob .
---kathr453 on 11/30/13


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Even Jacob who was God's chosen head of the Nation Israel is only one person, since the NATION as a whole rejected Jesus Christ. But again says Isaiah 14, I will again CHOOSE Jacob. How can God AGAIN choose an individual person who is dead...

Jacob in scripture means ISRAEL the NATION, not Jacob the individual as clearly stated in ISAIAH 14:1 among other places. Esau means EDOM the nation, not Esau the individual. Salvation is not by human heredity through a blood line. Today any descendent of EDOM or Ishmael can find salvation.

When you understand this Christan, you will have learned something taught in scripture by the Father.

You claim you were taught....but what you were taught is NOT by the Father.
---kathr4453 on 11/29/13


The elect of God from all eternity before He even created them are the children of God and most definitely according to the Word, He never elected "all mankind" into salvation.

"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth" Romans 9:11

That's why freewillers hate this Truth though it's in b/w for all to see. But it matters not to God what you think, "Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: The Lord knows those who are His," 2 Tim 2:19
---christan on 11/29/13


Well, to the carnal mind, which is an enmity to God - freewillers love is lying about the Truth. A classic example: the great lie and deception they so call show their love is to tell their dead and fallen fellow man that it's up to them to decide whether they want salvation by using their "own freewill".

Instead of telling them the Truth which is, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

So, you decide what is a true act of love in the Christian. Lie about the freewill to go to Christ or what Christ has declared above. And believing in the freewill is definitely not an act of love to God but utter hate for the Truth His Son spoke.
---christan on 11/29/13


Well I did not read all the posts. But I see that some here are short of love for others. Their doctrine is so important and they dislike so many as they teach that GOD hates all those who believe in Free Will. So I guess their answer is yes Christians have degrees of love and they also can hate others.
---Samuelbb7 on 11/29/13


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If "while you were yet sinners , Christ died for you"....you weren't a child of God at that point either...no one was. So may want to rethink your idiotic statement only made by a moron.

I heard about Christan and Markv storm trooping a VBS one day as they heard the children singing 'Jesus Loves me'. They were so outraged they forced their way in and said...NO no no Jesus does not love you and never will. He only loves those He picked out....and unless you believe you were picked, you will never be loved by God. He only loves those who believe they are the elect.
---kathr4453 on 11/29/13


Who even denies that one's love for their own "flesh and blood" is unconditional, though how imperfect as human beings we are? But here's where the foolish comparison ends between a parent and "their" child. True that you may love your own child (flesh and blood) BUT do you love every criminal in prison and call them your children? I think not. Only an idiot and fool like you would.

Is every born human being a child of God? Paul says it best, "That is, They which are the children of the flesh, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." Romans 9:8 - and yet to your foolishness, ALL are loved by God? Ya, right!
---christan on 11/29/13


Kathr, you do a lot of religious talk, make up a lot of stories, and included in all that, are more accusations about others. All those things rapped up into one. I guess you are exercising your own free will you think you have. But it isn't free will, it is that you are dead in trespasses and sins. With no hope in sight.
Today is the day of salvation for many. Will we see a change in your heart? Only time will tell.
---Mark_V. on 11/29/13


Geraldine,good question.In past I would have said degrees, man loves those who love him/her. Man may grow in love. However, I believe there is a love that is complete, whole,entire.

What you or someone else means by intensity, might be subjective and indicate equating love with emotions and/or ones thoughts. However, love may be contrary to those emotions or thoughts, as they can be carnal, sensual.

This is interesting: Eph 3:17-19 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith, that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height, And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
---chria9396 on 11/29/13


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Well Christan, Jacob and Esau don't describe saved and lost. That may be where your foundation is cracked. Paul was quoting from the OT, concerning Israel and EDOM

But yes, God even loved Cain. When God looked on the wickedness of man during the time of Noah, God was sorry He created man, He wasn't rubbing His hands together saying....OH now I can demonstrate my hate for those I created to rebel against me.

If perhaps you were a recipient of God's love, just like the woman taken in adultery, YOU TOO would be singing....Jesus Loves me, this I know for the Bible tells me so...

The plan of salvation is the GREATEST love story EVER.
---kathr4453 on 11/28/13


Christan, you must not have children. The Lord teaches us many things through our own relationship with our own children, even children who have rejected their parents and have gone the way of a criminal. That LOVE never stops even knowing they have to account for their crimes. That's human love. God's love is beyond description, no human can wrap their heads around except to experience it, and still cannot put into words.

This LOVE is deposited into the ELECT to carry into a sinful world. And that message of LOVE through us has lead many a hardened criminal on death row to salvation.

You have never been called to such heights and your words prove that. Your mentor was a murderer, and his legacy lives on in you.
---kathr4453 on 11/28/13


Kathr, so what you are saying is that unsaved sinners love Christ? That is very odd don't you think? They don't even have faith in Him, let along love Him. You say,
"Well, I totally disagree with you Markv. We love Him, because He first loved us. "Us" here is all sinners."
If you were talking about sinners saved by the grace of God you would be right. But you are talking about unsaved sinners. The "us" in the Bible are believers in Christ. You should have known that one for sure.
---Mark_V. on 11/28/13


"God's love is for all mankind"??? Seriously? "ALL" meaning Cain, the whole world during Noah's flood, Pharaoh, Egypt, King Herod, Pilate, Judas and most of all, Esau?

How erroneous and deceiving!!! If God "loved all mankind", why then would He declare, "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."? Isn't "love and hate" an explicit expression?

So then, according to such a remark like "God's love is for all mankind", one would be implying that He's a liar for saying "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

Doesn't sound like your god is the God that "loved Jacob and hated Esau".
---christan on 11/28/13


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Well, I totally disagree with you Markv. We love Him, because He first loved us. "Us" here is all sinners.

Love can be rejected. Love can either be received or rejected. It's the love of the truth that man rejects. Read Thesselonians. The LOVE of the truth that they might be saved....and because that Love of the truth, (the Gospel ) is rejected, the wrath of God will come on many? CAUSE and EFFECT.

"All day long I have stretched out my arms to you, but YOU would not"....

That is the truth Markv. It will never change, because you say so. You have no power or free will to change anything God has already spoken.
---kathr4453 on 11/27/13


Markv, because you do not understand or believe God's word, you have lied against God, and may find that YOU yourself are included in those who have been sent strong delusions, of which many here have already witnessed.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-11
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish, because THEY RECEIVED NOT the love of the truth, that they might be saved..

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
---kathr4453 on 11/27/13


For something to be RECEIVED, it first must be OFFERED...cause and effect. I cannot be held accountable for not receiving something I was never offered to begin with. So this disproves YOUR theory of only a secret society being offered salvation.

Now if the verse said....my wrath is coming on those I hated from the beginning...that would be another matter. That's what your man made gospel states, but not what GOD said.

I believe God over and above you in all things. You have lied about God, taken His name in vain stating you speak FOR GOD, yet you only speak for the dark horse Calvin.

Your rantings and ravings don't bother me. I'm glad others see how awful the doctrine of Calvinism is through your words actions and hate.
---kathr453 on 11/27/13


Kathr, you say,
" While were were all sinners God demonstrated His Love for all of us through Jesus Christ." correct, the "us" are those God chose before the foundation of the world, the elect, (Eph. 1:4,5). For the Bible speaks only to those who understand. And we are told of the unsaved,
'There is none who undestands, There is none who seek after God" (Rom. 3:11).
Then say:
" It's that LOVE that draws man to God, and that LOVE story of how much God loves sinners that draw sinful man to God through Christ."
Your only problem is that God doesn't draw all sinners, we don't have Universal salvation. If He loved everyone the same, all human beings would be saved.
---Mark_V. on 11/27/13


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God's love is for all mankind, sinner or saint. No scripture says God only loves the Christian. While were were all sinners God demonstrated His Love for all of us through Jesus Christ. It's that LOVE that draws man to God, and that LOVE story of how much God loves sinners that draw sinful man to God through Christ.

The woman taken in adultery is a perfect example. Here she was a sinner, deserving of being stoned under the Law, yet Jesus did not allow that law to be enforced! as a NEW day, new message was being preached...FORGIVENESS/ GRACE. Boy if that didn't set off the Pharisees who today are called Calvinists.
---kathr4453 on 11/27/13


"Christian love" is rooted in the love of God for them. Whereas the "love" from an unbeliever is merely a carnal "love" that's rooted in the fall of man, ie SIN, lacking God's love.

God's love for the sinner (Christian) as it is written in the Holy Bible is an unconditional love. It's specific and particular. Meaning, His love cannot be earned or bought with something the sinner does. God's love for the Christian is basically in His Son Jesus Christ. And so we are told,

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8 - this the ultimate act of love that God had for His people, while they were sinning against Him.
---christan on 11/26/13


\\Phileo - brotherly love.
Storge - family love.
agape - love of neighbor.
eros - passionate love (not found in scripture.\\

This is the popular myth.

However, while STORGE has a technical meaning in ancient Greek, eros, filia, and agape were used interchangeably in classical literature.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/26/13


Geraldine, I agree with Cluny, true love is doing something good for another without expecting anything in return. It is pure agapy love. That is the love that God has for all of those who believe.
We also love others because we expect something in return. Husband and wives do that on a daily basis. But a husband or wife who does something for the other out of pure love never expects anything in return. I believe that (1 Cor.13) explains the love of God in our hearts who is Christ. Without Him, anything good that we do really means nothing at all. As the passage ends, "And now abideth faith, hope, and (Love), these three, but the greatest of these is (Love).
---Mark_V. on 11/26/13


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A person can have many "emotions", but we should understand "love" as a SENTIMENT. The 2nd commandment (that we "love" each other THE SAME AS we love/regard ourselves) means that we should BE CONCERNED with each others welfare the same as we are IN LOVE WITH OURSELVES (but I'm not infatuated with myself...I'm not a primadonna, I won't be convenient for anyone and am nobody's DOORMAT).

If I was "in love" with myself, I would have to treat others as a primadonna and be their doormat. God is not telling us that we must be convenient for other people or let them use us. We should have a "heart of flesh" that can FEEL SENTIMENT/caring (the ability to have LIVING WATER tears of sorrow).
---faithforfaith on 11/26/13


Obviously, there are some people you will like more than others.

But love means an act of the will doing what is best for the other person within your power.

It's not a mere emotion.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/25/13


Geraldine, There are four Greek words translated as love generally meaning= Phileo - brotherly love.
Storge - family love.
agape - love of neighbor.
eros - passionate love (not found in scripture.
---1st_cliff on 11/25/13


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