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Evolution Of Carnivores

If there was no death for animals before the Fall, and there is no evolution, why are the teeth of tigers, wolves, and other carnivores (which some insist were herbivores originally) so poorly formed for chewing vegetation?

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 ---Cluny on 11/28/13
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Cluny the Australian fruit bat is so called because its diet is fruit. Nonetheless its back teeth are no more or less grinding teeth than those of a lion.

This bat is a strict herbivore despite the fact that in relation to its size its teeth are as large as those of a lion and very similar in type, with massive ripping canines. This ably demonstrates teeth do not prove what a creature eats. If this bat was only found as a fossil it would certainly be classed as a carnivore because of its skull and teeth structure.

That such teeth are used to rip skin of fruit fits with it always being vegetarian as God says. That lions in the wild currently eat meat does not mean they always did so. The present is not the key to the past.
---Warwick on 12/5/13


Warwick: "What does this prove? That supposed carnivores do not need meat to thrive, and their teeth are no hindrance to a meatless diet. And it shows the reasonableness of Scripture saying they were once vegetarian."

Apparently, Cluny (contrary to his claim of Orthodoxy) has no regard for the truths of the Bible, but clings to his doctrine of higher criticism and his faith in the god of Random Chance. He has been given more than ample evidence of the fallacy of his position, but who can change an obdurate heart?



---jerry6593 on 12/5/13


And God blessed Adam and Eve, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed, to you it shall be for meat. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

"...and the lion shall eat straw like the ox." in the new earth.
---Steveng on 12/4/13


\\1. Re 'dominion', I see you leave it unexplained, which is a pretty disingenuous way of putting forward a case. \\

This was not an issue to me.

\\2. Human teeth have "meat cutting" ones. Therefore, on your belief, humans can't successfully be vegetarians?\\

We also have chewing ones for grinding vegetables and plants--something most strict carnivores lack.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/4/13


Marc, Give me an example of how Adam was to "rule over" creatures!
Our Forestry Service manage (rule over) animals in the wild.
When one animal becomes so populous that it threatens the natural " food chain" then they are culled! To keep them in balance!
Tell me how you would "rule over" say, seals, who become so numerous that they deplete the fish stock threatening a whole industry!
---1st_cliff on 12/4/13




\\That the Kinkajiu is almost exclusively a fruit-eater shows they, and you are wrong.\\

The word "omnivore" means it will eat meat, too.

However, it does not follow that it preys on other mammals. It could be eating insects and such.

Why are you so dense?

BTW, hummingbirds, while consuming a lot of plant nectar, will also eat insects to get their protein.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/4/13


Cluny, do you really expect us to believe you are so dense as to be unaware of what this demonstrates? Surely not. It shows the Lioness Lea could exist well upon either diet, and had no interest in the learned skill of hunting to eat.

My point regarding the Kinkajiu is that it is wrongly classified as a carnivore because those who misclassified it also suffered from your misconception that teeth define a creatures diet. That the Kinkajiu is almost exclusively a fruit-eater shows they, and you are wrong.
---Warwick on 12/4/13


Cluny and Cliff,

1. Re 'dominion', I see you leave it unexplained, which is a pretty disingenuous way of putting forward a case. Nevertheless, two of my Hebrew dictionaries say, inter alia, it means 'to rule over'. So, if you equate 'rule over' with 'to eat' then God and kings must be cannibals.

2. Human teeth have "meat cutting" ones. Therefore, on your belief, humans can't successfully be vegetarians?
---Marc on 12/4/13


\\they weaned her onto meat, but she does not hunt.

What does this prove? \\

It proves that she was not taught to hunt by her parents, a standard survival skill for lions, and that nature was interfered with.

As an old commercial said, it's not nice to fool Mother Nature.

About kinkajous, they are actually OMNIVORES (which would include meat), but generally eat fruit (frugivorous), and not leaves or such, which would be typical of herbivores.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/4/13


I assume you know all there is to know about veterinary dentistry, Warwick, so I will bow to your superior knowledge.
Glory to Jesus Christ1
---Cluny on 12/3/13

That all he wanted was a bow..wow.

Pro_28:1 The wicked flee when no man pursueth: but the righteous are bold as a lion.

If you'd mentioned anything scriptural/Israel he will bow....out.
Isa 51:1 Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the LORD: look unto the rock whence ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged.
Isa 51:2 Look unto Abraham your father, and unto Sarah that bare you: for I called him alone, and blessed him, and increased him.
---Trav on 12/4/13




I assume you know all there is to know about veterinary dentistry, Warwick, so I will bow to your superior knowledge.

Glory to Jesus Christ1
---Cluny on 12/3/13


Cluny while you are at it consider the lioness named Lea. Despite her massive (must be a carnivore) teeth she was raised in Italy by Antonio Vincenzo on a diet of pasta, (with Napolitana sauce) ricotta cheese and vegetables.

Eventually Antonio's work circumstances meant he could not keep Lea and the Rhino & Lion Nature Reserve near Johannesburg, South Africa, agreed to take her. For reasons not explained (but possibly for evolutionary biases) they weaned her onto meat, but she does not hunt.

What does this prove? That supposed carnivores do not need meat to thrive, and their teeth are no hindrance to a meatless diet. And it shows the reasonableness of Scripture saying they were once vegetarian.

---Warwick on 12/4/13


Still no one ventures an answer, no one wants to "back up" and admit their error!
---1st_cliff on 12/4/13


Cluny you dance well but not well enough.

Assuming you are not a liar I can only surmise you made your comments in ignorance of the wider reality, in passionate but thoughtless defence of your Biblical scepticism.

You claim that a creatures teeth dictate whether it is carnivorous or not. I have shown that you are in error. Pause a moment in your dance and consider again just one example which exposes your error. The Kinkajiu is classed as a carnivore because of its skull structure and its teeth, but is vegetarian.

Is this so? Yes or no?

I trust also that by now even you acknowledge (privately of course) that you had it wrong about Tykes weight, health and cause of death.
---Warwick on 12/3/13


\\Tykes teeth were quite suited to a vegetarian diet, which contradicts your baseless opinions.\\

You are trying to make a rule from an exception, so who really has baseless opinions?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/3/13


Thus, there is no a priori reason for assuming crocodilians consume fruit for reasons other than nutrition. While much remains to be learned about how crocodilians process carbohydrates and other plant-based nutrients, collectively, these studies suggest that frugivory is likely to yield nutritional rewards for crocodilians.-S. Platt et al., Frugivory and seed dispersal by crocodilians: an overlooked form of saurochory? Journal of Zoology 291(2013):8799
---micha9344 on 12/3/13


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Cluny, After 900 years of unchecked creature proliferation including huge dinasaurs, and mankind being vegetarian, what's left for humans to eat??

Any way no one dared answer my question (not unusual on here) of what was meant for Adam to have "dominion" over animals, fish and birds!
They would have to admit they're wrong and that aint gonna happen!
---1st_cliff on 12/3/13


Cluny you continue to get it wrong.

My research shows that mature female African lionesses weigh from 120-180 kg. Therefore at 160kg Tyke was above average. Experts who saw her commented very favourably upon her physical condition. Photos show a large fit, strong animal.

Tyke died of viral pneumonia, not as a consequence of her diet.

Two things are obvious: you do not respect God's word. And secondly Tykes teeth were quite suited to a vegetarian diet, which contradicts your baseless opinions.
---Warwick on 12/3/13


\\In just 930 years Adam lived he would have had to eat the rabbits because there would be no vegetation. If he had not sinned!\\

Don't forget--mankind was not given permission to eat flesh of animals until AFTER the Flood.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/3/13


Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein [there is] life, [I have given] every green herb for meat: and it was so.
--Doesn't this say that everything God created ate vegetation?
Were carnivores created after day 6? or was there a change in their diet at some point?
Maybe man's sin affected more than just man, just like today.
Didn't the whole Earth change at the Flood because of man's sin?
How is it some say man's sin only affected man?
Don't some of you believe in global warming, it is man's fault, and man can fix it?
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
2Pet 3:13...
---micha9344 on 12/3/13


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In just a few years the rabbit population in Australia was so prolific that it threatened life in general. IE,
They were voracious herbivores destroying vegetation ring barking trees (killing them) Drastic measures were taken and finally had to use poisons to stem their growth!
Just imagine 6 thousand years of these creatures (as some would have you believe were not meant to die) What would be left for humans to eat??
In just 930 years Adam lived he would have had to eat the rabbits because there would be no vegetation. If he had not sinned!
---1st_cliff on 12/3/13


\\It proves at least two things,
****
That she survived and thrived upon a vegetarian diet. \\

Some points about lions in general and Tyke in particular.

The average life span of a lion in the wild is 10-15 years, 20-25 in captivity.

Tyke, a captive, lived only 9 years, you say.

Lions weigh about 500 lbs, Tyke only 300-400 lbs.

Tyke might have existed on a vegetarian diet, but she hardly thrived.

I wonder how many other lion cubs with her allergies were born in the wild and died as cubs before reaching maturity?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/2/13


The elusive Kinkajiu (potus flavus) is classed as a carnivore because of its skull structure and its teeth. Researcher Roland keys needed to study them but before he could do so he had to catch one. As they are classified as carnivores he tried traps with meat, no success. He tried bananas and finally success. He discovered they are exclusively vegetarian feeding on fruit, leaves, flowers and nectar.

The physiology of a creature does not prove what it eats.

BTW I just now spoke with the research scientist Dr Catchpoole, who wrote the article on Tyke the vegetarian lion and he says there is no evidence she was allergic to meat.
---Warwick on 12/3/13


Cluny, what Tyke shows to those who can think clearly, and Biblically is that so called carnivores can live well on a vegetarian diet, and there are many more examples other than Tyke. This is strong evidence that they were once all vegetarian, as Scripture says. But you will not believe this because you have contempt for Scripture and then disgustingly you end your sceptical diatribes with praise to Jesus whose word you treat with contempt.

You claim that a creatures physiology shows what their diet is. However I have given a number of examples which show you are wrong. But you are shameless and will not admit the obvious.
---Warwick on 12/3/13


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Cliff: "Scripture does not say the seventh day was completed..so what's not to believe???
Why do you insist that the Sabbath law be exactly like the pattern?"

Have you ever read:

Exo 20:8, 11 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
.... wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Why do you insist that "remember" now means "forget"? Why do you insist that the Law has changed (Dan 7:25)? Where do you find the idea of an incomplete Sabbath in the Bible? Where do you get the idea that that which God made holy is incomplete? Certainly not from the Bible.

And what good is a pattern if it is not intended to be followed?



---jerry6593 on 12/3/13


Worth repeating:
"1Cliff, your right, many questions you put down cannot be answered. One reason is, that Genesis was not intended to be a complete detail story. It only gave us a part of the whole story. If God wanted to put every animal He created that has ever existed, just naming them would take book after book of only names of animals, birds fish and bugs. The same is true about time. We are not given the exact time of every event, even exact numbers are not always given, only if the context tells us. To give every detail would take many many books. People who read Genesis or any other book should know that. What we receive is what God wanted us to receive. Otherwise God would have told us the details facts of everything.
---Mark_V. on 12/3/13


Steveng, Anyone who has done military service knows how exhausting marching can be ,carrying your weapons and equipment.
These men marched all night ,to surprise the enemy, then fought hand-to-hand combat all day, then we are to believe they fought another 24 hours without a break??? It was a hoax!
Why does no one apply logic to what they read?
---1st_cliff on 12/3/13


Relevantly to those 'Christians' who reject what God's word says, Dr Andrew Steinman, a member of the National Association of Professors of Hebrew, is convinced, by the facts (as are some liberal Hebrew experts) that the writer of Genesis 1 intended to convey the days of creation as 24hr days, as we live today. And that any other view undermines the gospel.

Dr Steinman says the phrase "there was an evening and there was a morning" is a Hebrew merism meaning the whole 24hr day.

Interestingly in Hebrew the 6th and 7th days are handled differently, being called "the sixth day, the seventh day" both special because man was created on the 6th day, the 7th special as this was the day God finished creating.
---Warwick on 12/2/13


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1st_cliff wrote: "They believed that the sun circled the earth back in the day, and you say science has proven it stood still for 24 hours? Yep,right up there with Grimm and Dr.Seuss!"

Are you as arrogant about the bible as you are about science fact? Do an internet search for "science missing day". Of course, you'll find that many of the sites you encounter shows it to be a hoax, but the stories are true. Do you think science would tell the world that they found the missing day? Don't think so because then they would have to admit the bible to be true. And that would be against "their" religion.
---Steveng on 12/2/13


Marc, By jove I think you've got it!
Listen all kidding aside, Give me your thoughts on "why" God made these creatures. Pets ?
Would the tyranasaurus rex fetch your slippers?
Careful you don't step on a mouse/rat (there would be trillions and trillions)
What reason did God have in telling Adam to have "dominion" over these creatures ,how would he have dominion over sea gulls,sharks,rabbits ,pythons etc...?
If God instructed you to have dominion over, say,crocodiles ,what would that mean??? How would you comply?
---1st_cliff on 12/2/13


\\Of course the story of Tyke does not prove anything to you as you will not allow any fact to overcome your persistent antiBiblical scepticism.\\

I will repeat what I said: The story of Tyke proves NOTHING about the nature of pre-lasparian lions, wolves, tigers, and the like.

House cats will occasionally nibble grass. But wild budgies, normally seed eaters, will eat an occasional insect. So what?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/2/13


Cliff and Cluny,

Man, it must feel, well, godlike to have perfect understanding as you guys quite obviously believe you have.

1. Anyway, what we have to be careful of is to project our own psychological and physical injuries onto God. For example, if your dad beat you, think of God as a sadist. If you're sick and weak, think God has made you this way.

2. Imagine, in the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve watch the first lion snap the neck of a young gazelle, consume it with gusto, because that's the way God made it, and then Adam says, "Praise God for such a very good Creation."
---Marc on 12/2/13


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Jerry, **So you don't believe the bible** Scripture does not say the seventh day was completed..so what's not to believe???
Surely you understand model or pattern.
Why do you insist that the Sabbath law be exactly like the pattern? God had six work days and one rest day unlike the pagan community so He used this "pattern" as law but modified it to to suit a perfect model (setting His people apart from the non Israelites that didn't have to be "exactly" the same time periods.(the length of His days were immaterial) Practical but obviously too complicated for some minds!
---1st_cliff on 12/2/13


Of course the story of Tyke does not prove anything to you as you will not allow any fact to overcome your persistent antiBiblical scepticism.

It proves at least two things,

That her teeth were well suited to chewing vegetation, the opposite of that which you claim.

That she survived and thrived upon a vegetarian diet.

Mr Westbeaus (tykes owner) observation of the lioness that To condition her stomach she would spend an hour at a time eating the succulent tall grass in the fields, is also a vivid reminder of the prophecies of Isaiah 11:7 and 65:25, the lion will eat straw like the ox.

Apparently Tyke died at 9 years of age after catching viral pneumonia while in Hollywood.
---Warwick on 12/2/13


The story of Tyke the Lioness doesn't prove anything.

She lived only a short time--back in the 20th century. She was born with an allergy to meat and blood--something CLEARLY the result of the fall--and had she been raised in the wild, and not by humans, she would have died as a cub.

You don't take an exception and make a rule out of it. This story doesn't prove anything about the pre-lapsarian nature of carnivores.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/2/13


Cliff: "There's no way everything mentioned in day six could be completed in 24 hours. ... Also the fact that day seven was never completed!"

So, you don't believe the Bible. Why not? God Himself wrote that He took six ordinary days and commanded us to count them and rest on the seventh day. How can we comply if the days are of undefined length. If not to accommodate Evolution, then what is your reason to disbelieve God?


Also, do you believe that Adam and Eve were vegetarians?

---jerry6593 on 12/2/13


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While you're on the "how longs" add how long did it take to flood the earth?
How long did it take for God to send His Son? (more than 2,000 years).
How long waiting for His return? (like 4,000 years and counting)
Not everything was instantaneous!
They believed that the sun circled the earth back in the day, and you say science has proven it stood still for 24 hours? Yep,right up there with Grimm and Dr.Seuss!
---1st_cliff on 12/2/13


Are the teeth of so-called carnivores "poorly formed for eating vegetation" as some insist. 'Tyke' an African Lion born and raised in the US 'says' no!

Tyke refused to eat meat and her owners were concerned because scientist's reports said carnivorous animals must have flesh. They were advised to put a small amount of blood in little Tykes milk but she would not drink it. She thrived on cooked grain, raw eggs and milk, reaching 160Kg (352lb) at 4 years of age. And all this time she did not know her teeth were "poorly formed" for her diet!

A young visitor solved the problem telling Tyke's owners God originally made all animals vegetarian. Isn't it interesting how the truth comes out when you trust God's word!
---Warwick on 12/1/13


Cliff,

Finally we agree: You're no scientist!

Humans and ants have blood (albeit open circulation, not closed like humans), memory (like a computer), stomach (like dummies you practise first aid on) etc. Your point? Maybe you think ants and humans are moral equivalents and should be treated equally?

I never said krill etc is a vegetable. My point stands: insects etc are just complex machines and not alive like dogs or humans because there's no soul, blood AND breath through nostrils.

Either we take the non-scientist Cliff's (or Richard Dawkins' or the milkman's) opinion, a man previously involved in a crazy cult, or we take the the Creator of life's definition. The choice, when you decide to grow up Cliff, is yours.
---Marc on 12/1/13


Jerry you're reading me wrong. I'm far from a "long age evolutionist".
I don't subscribe to any evolution theory.
I just believe that the creation days were longer than 24 hours. That the "yoms" were periods of time, we're not talking millions of years, but long enough to complete each "yom" especially day six. There's no way everything mentioned in day six could be completed in 24 hours. (God could but not Adam) pure logic!
Also the fact that day seven was never completed!
The 6 periods God used as a pattern to establish the six day work week. Again ,pure logic!
---1st_cliff on 12/1/13


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1st_cliff wrote: "There's nothing so foolish and illogical as interpreting Genesis 1 as creation of the whole universe in 144 hours!

Jesus turned water into wine. How long does it take to ferment grapes into wine?

Jesus brought back to life dead people. How long would it take to bring dead people back to life?

Jesus calmed the storm at sea. Did he need to wait for the weather report.

All the miracles God created in the OT and Jesus performed in the NT were immediate. Was the evening and the morning in millions of years or was it one day?

God spoke things into existance for he commanded, and they were created.

Psalm 33:6, 9
Isaiah 48:12-13
Hebrews 11:3
Luke 1:37
Luke 18:27
---Steveng on 12/1/13


How long did the Red Sea take to part?

How long did God take when Moses hit the rock for the water to flow out?

How long did God bake the manna before he fed the Israelites?

How long did each of the ten plagues of Egypt take?

How long did the sun and the moon stay motionless to enable the Israelites to win a crucial battle? (this was proven by science that this did happen)

So, how much more can God Create of the universe, including plants, animals and humans in a matter of days?

Oh, and one other example, Jesus did not need to wait for airplanes to be invented to be able to ascend into the sky?
---Steveng on 12/1/13


Cliff "Jerry, You know and I know guys on here don't subscribe to Darwin's Theory, you're just using it as an insult!"

Now Cliffy, just what makes you say that when many defend a long-age evolution of the species rather than the six-day Creation of the Bible? Do you think it's insulting to call an evolutionist a Darwinist? Have you gone bleeding heart liberal on us?

Also, do you believe that Adam and Eve were vegetarians?




---jerry6593 on 12/1/13


Marc, An ant is not a life but a complex machine??
Wrong Marc!
Are you also a machine?
An ant has a brain with memory and social instincts a heart that pumps it's colorless blood ,a stomach and nerve cord etc..
Neither krill nor plankton is vegetation.
Neither are mosquitoes and insects.
No, I'm no scientist but neither am I gullible!
---1st_cliff on 12/1/13


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Warwick, You're right that the time with JWs has taught me not to believe an "ism" just because they profess Christianity.
It's not that he bible is wrong, the fault lies with the would be interpreters!
There's nothing so foolish and illogical as interpreting Genesis 1 as creation of the whole universe in 144 hours!
Absolute nonsense!
---1st_cliff on 12/1/13


Hey Cliff, this morning my neighbour poured hot water down an ants' nest that had been bothering him for so long. I was so sad afterwards that I used up a whole box of tissues over his INHUMANE treatment.

Can you remember him in your prayers to God today and ask him to forgive my neighbour for his cruelty?
---Marc on 11/30/13


Cliff it is not that your questions are difficult to answer but that you refuse to accept the many many answers I have given. You are a sceptic and will not let any fact, or good argument hinder your preference for scepticism. Therefore there is no point in answering your questions.

Your time with the JW's has unbalanced you, and there is nothing I can do about that.
---Warwick on 11/30/13


Cliff, no matter what I say, nothing will alter your fixed view. Don't forget, the world has fallen and now there is carnivory. Your error of logic is this: Since I see animals eating meat now, therefore it's always been that way. It's the same error uniformitarians make re geological processes.

Anteaters eat ants (not life, but complex machines),snakes can eat insects, frogs eat mosquitoes, mosquitoes can lap up chlorophyll,spiders eat insect,whales eat krill or plankton,seals etc eat fish, vultures can eat fruit,
maggots eat rotting fruit and vegies as they do in my compost.

As I asked, ever had a loving relationship with a goldfish?
---Marc on 11/30/13


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Jerry, You know and I know guys on here don't subscribe to Darwin's Theory, you're just using it as an insult!
You seem to be an intelligent person, what is the diet of anteaters , snakes, frogs mosquitoes ,spiders ,Whales,seals,sea lions ,sea gulls, osprey
flies,vultures,maggots,etc..
Which of these creatures are specifically designed and created to be vegetarian???
any of the above?/
none of the above
, all of the above??
---1st_cliff on 11/30/13


Clooney: "Or do people not think about things they don't think about?"

What a genius!

Now I know where the word "oxymoron" comes from.





---jerry6593 on 11/30/13


1Cliff, your right, many questions you put down cannot be answered. One reason is, that Genesis was not intended to be a complete detail story. It only gave us a part of the whole story. If God wanted to put every animal He created that has ever existed, just naming them would take book after book of only names of animals, birds fish and bugs. The same is true about time. We are not given the time between one event and another in many places. That would take many many books also. People who read Genesis should know that. It was said that all the things Jesus did could not be put down either, they were many we will never know about. What we receive is what God wanted us to receive. Otherwise God would have told us the details facts of everything.
---Mark_V. on 11/30/13


Warwick: You could also mention the chlorophyll found in T-Rex's teeth, and the fangs of the vegetarian Gorilla. But I doubt that that would convince these adherents to the Religion of Evolution and believers of the Prophet Darwin. The Bible is not their book of religious foundation - "The Origin of Species" is.




---jerry6593 on 11/30/13


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Warwick, As you wish, you're free to communicate with whomever you wish.
I realize that my questions are pointed and difficult for you to answer.
Fortunately there are those on here that are not locked into an "ism".
I bear you no ill will!
---1st_cliff on 11/29/13


Marc, Since you asked:
When God breathed into Adam's nostrils he "became" a living soul (nephesh/psyche)
The opposite to a living soul is a dead soul-elementary!
Animals are living "nephesh" (Strong's Concordance. Gen.1.20,24,30) for example!
A soul is a living sentient creature! Nothing spooky, nothing mysterious.
Eccl.3.19 Man and beast..this is not an "opinion"
---1st_cliff on 11/29/13


When God finished Creation He said it was "very good" (Genesis 1:31), meaning "perfect" as Deuteronomy 32:4 shows. Therefore the idea His Creation at its origin contained carnivorous predators which killed to survive is inconsistent with Gods nature and His word. As Genesis 1:29,30 says He created man and animals vegetarian. On Wolf Island (c200km) north of the Galapagos group there exist finches (called vampire finches for good reason) which survive in drought times by sucking the blood of masked boobies. How did vegetarian finches come to be predators? Because of need, showing you cannot pick a predator by its beak or teeth.

The same goes for cats, dogs, bears etc.
---Warwick on 11/29/13


Marc: Your comment about the Bible's definition of life 'The Bible defines life as something with soul, blood and, as I recall, breathes through nostrils.' is a bit different from what we often think about life as.

I mean that we do often think as plants as alive, or insects, both of which have no blood, and certainly no soul.

We could even ask about an octopus, which has blood, but it is not red?

But I do not think the Bible wants us to assume that plants have no life at all - it wants us to know that God cares about the life of those who have a soul, and other animals much less

At least that is my best guess
---Peter on 11/29/13


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\\You said: The Bible defines life as something with soul, blood and, as I recall, breathes through nostrils.\\

Mark, please give BCV where the Bible says that a creature must have nostrils to be life.

Whales and dolphins don't have nostrils, but they do breathe oxygen. Are they "life" in your view of the Biblical definition?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/29/13


Steveng wrote in the Earth Created In Six Days 11/27/13 blog: "Cluny, you have no idea what was before the time Adam sinned."

Cluny wrote: "Do you?"

Steveng wrote: "yes, because it is written in the bible"

Steveng wrote: "God promised to bring the earth back to the time before Adam sinned. This is when animals ate the foliage instead of other animals."

Cluny wrote: "Prove it from Scripture that all animals were herbivores. That's your rule, not mine, remember."

Bible says: "...and the lion shall eat straw like the ox." Isaiah 11:6,7

Noah was perfect. Genesis 6:9

Abraham was perfect. Genesis 17:1

Any other question?

---Steveng on 11/30/13


Who is to say that God wasn't responsible for Evolution, the natural rhythm of the Universe and so on and so on. Just because monkey turned into man isn't in the Bible, doesn't mean to me that a Power greater than ourselves isn't still responsible for everything. Therefore, acknowledging that there is a superior universal power will hopefully humble us and open us up to learning what we each one of us is supposed to learn in this life.
---Linda on 11/30/13


Do an on-line KJB bible search for the word "perfect."

Example verses:
Genesis 6:9
Genesis 17:1
Leviticus 22:21 (also having the word "freewill")
Deuteronomy 18:13
Deuteronomy 32:4
2 Samuel 22:31, 33
1 Kings 8:61
1 Kings 15:14 (Asa's heart was perfect)
2 Kings 20:3
1 Chronicles 12:38
1 Chronicles 28:9 (free will)
1 Chronicles 29:9 (free will)
Job 1:1 (Job was perfect)
Psalm 18:30
Psalm 19:7
Matthew 5:48
Matthew 19:21
Luke 6:40
Acts 24:22
1 Corinthians 2:6
2 Corinthians 13:11
Ephesians 4:12
Ephesians 4:13
Colossians 1:28
Colossians 3:14
Hebrews 5:9
Hebrews 9:11
Hebrews 13:21
1 John 2:5
1 John 4:12, 17, 18
2 Timothy 3:17
---Steveng on 11/30/13


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Cluny, creation was changed dramatically by the curse-even the ground.

You asked about sickness before/after the fall.

Surely the curse would have quickly begun to affect people negatively and continue to do so increasingly, as man no longer had access to the tree of life. Today medical scientists write of genetic load where more and more people have more and more life-threatening genetic defects.

Quite possible even soon after the fall mankind may have developed lowered resistance to pathogens.

It is also quite likely certain organisms changed via mutation so that they became pathogenic i.e. able to cause disease.

Neither of these are consistent with a perfect creation.
---Warwick on 11/30/13


Cliff, as I have pointed out before I will not be communicating with you again. There is no point answering your questions as it leads nowhere. Ask someone else, maybe they have nothing better to do.
---Warwick on 11/29/13


Strongaxe,

Ever had a relationship with a fish like you would with a dog or a cat? Ever tried shouting out, "Here boy. Come and get your dinner" to a gold fish?

As for plants, they're not living creatures because they clearly have no personality i.e. soul. They're just incredibly complex machines invented by God.

As a friend once reasoned, imagine entering a house and seeing a large photo of the owner chain-sawing a tree. Now imagine entering the same house and seeing the owner chain-sawing a living cow. Would you react the same way?
---Marc on 11/29/13


Marc:

You said: The Bible defines life as something with soul, blood and, as I recall, breathes through nostrils.

Does this mean that fish aren't alive because they don't have nostrils? How about plants?
---StrongAxe on 11/29/13


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\\If you are, what have you discovered in scripture which would make you believe the animals could not die?
---David on 11/29/13\\

There are some people here who believe that animals did not die before the Fall and have said as much.

It is to them this question is asked.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/29/13


Cliff,

There is an obvious difference between what you imply life is and what the Bible defines it as. Yours is opinion, the Bible's definition is a fact from its creator.

The Bible defines life as something with soul, blood and, as I recall, breathes through nostrils.

Now, tell me your definition and we can see where you went wrong, unless, as seems the case, you put your opinion above the Bible's statement of fact.

BTW, do you agree with Richard Dawkins' definition of life that it can be mere 2-dimensional animal-like computer figures?
---Marc on 11/29/13


Cluny
Are you asking "What did the meat eating animals eat before the fall, if there was no death before the fall?"

If you are, what have you discovered in scripture which would make you believe the animals could not die?
---David on 11/29/13


Warwick, While you are describing the ability to eat vegetation in some creatures,
take a second and describe how the anteater could eat grass, or the frog or the crocodile whose body shape and jaw d not lend itself to eating vegetation!
---1st_cliff on 11/29/13


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Warwick, Apart from animals who eat vegetation ,how about vegetation that eats creatures like the Venus Flytrap specifically created for this purpose .
The specific design and purpose of the vulture (and also maggots)is to eat carrion!

Your argument shows possibilities" not purpose!
---1st_cliff on 11/29/13


Warwick, Here's something you can relate to:
There were no rabbits in Australia prior to 1788.
Thomas Austin introduced 24 rabbits into the wild in 1859. by 1950 there were 600 million despite the radical attempts to control them even building fences of hundreds of miles!
Can you imagine if rabbits did not die since creation how many would be here now?
This is just "one" creature!
Time to rethink your theology!
---1st_cliff on 11/29/13


"...do people not think about things they don't think about?"

Glory to Jesus Christ!"
--Cluny on 11/28/13


:D!!!
---Leon on 11/28/13


The panda bear has ripping teeth like a carnivore but 99% of its diet is Bamboo. Likewise the fruit bat (or flying fox) has teeth very similar and proportionally of similar size to a lion, but eats only fruit.

The sulphur crested cockatoo has powerful, sharp grasping talons, and a large sharp curved beak like an eagle but only eats nuts, seeds and roots. Because of its beak and talons if seen only in the fossil record it would assuredly be classified as a carnivore.

The New Zealand Kia also a parrot, and similarly equipped is an omnivore, eating plants and animals.

A creature's teeth or beak do not signify whether it is carnivore, herbivore or omnivore.
---Warwick on 11/28/13


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Jesus said "My Father has kept working 'till now and I keep working" is an indication that God has not finished creating
The account in Genesis is about the planet earth and how the rest of the universe relates to it! IE sun moon stars etc..
It also indicates that it took more than 144 hours to build this world!
---1st_cliff on 11/28/13


A related question:

If there was no sickness before the Fall, does that mean that pathogenic organisms appeared only after it?

If this is so, would this not mean that God was NOT through with creating things on the 6th day?

Think about it. Or do people not think about things they don't think about?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/28/13


Sharks, seals, walrus , Whales,
anteaters , eagles, hawks ,spiders ,etc. etc..etc. to believe that these were created herbivores is to believe in nonsense!
What was God's reason for creating animals,birds, fish and insects fo in the first place??
Why did God tell Adam to "have dominion" of these creatures if they were just to be left alone???
Put some reasoning behind your belief!
---1st_cliff on 11/28/13


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