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Works And Deed Sames

The teachers in the New Testament talk of works and of deeds. Do you believe works and deeds the same thing? If you do, why does Paul teach against justification by works, and James teaches justification by deeds?

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 ---David on 12/2/13
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Doing things that please GOD is not adding to your salvation or saving us. When I did some things that pleased my parents that did not make me their child. They were just pleased with what their child was doing.

We are children of GOD. Should not our Father be pleased when we help the poor and do those things that are pleasing in His sight?

We do right because we love our FATHER in Heaven. We help others because we love them.

James says our actions show to others where our heart is. It shows what we are. To be what GOD wants us to be we are Born Again.

Many people say they are born again but do not live like children of GOD. So the question is are they?
---Samuelbb7 on 12/13/13


David, where on earth do you get your "ingredients" to cook up stories of what you have just said about the law God gave to Moses? Why not say it the way Paul declared,

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Romans 3:20

You said, "that obedience to Jesus Christ will bring us Gods saving Grace" - you're actually saying one has to still work for their salvation by being obedient to Christ. Bottomline, you're still a works monger. That's not grace but works!!!
---christan on 12/13/13


Warwick, come to think of it, my blog reply was indeed to have been addressed to you and David and that's because you said that my thinking of Noah was illogical.

Up till now, both you and David cannot tell me how "Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God". That is to say, on what grounds was Noah "just and perfect" before God?

To which I replied, the answer was in verse 8, "But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord."

So, how is my thinking illogical when I believe that Noah was the recipient of Ephesians 2:8,9, just like all of God's elect?
---christan on 12/13/13


In the Law of Moses, Moses gave the children of Abraham a list of those things which displease God.
In the Law of Christ, Jesus taught us those that please God.

When you do those things which displease God, you are disciplined by God.(Hebrews:12:10)
When you do those things which please God, you are rewarded by God.(Romans 2:6-7)

You can not please God by trying to keep the Law of Moses, because no man can keep the Law.(Works)
But we do please God, by doing what Jesus tells us to do. (faith/deeds).

These Good works are called faith, because we believe the promise Jesus made in (John 14:21). That promise that obedience to Jesus Christ will bring us Gods saving Grace.

---David on 12/13/13


Christan, thanks for that. I could not imagine how you would think I believe anyone can be saved by works.
---Warwick on 12/13/13




Trav, The law was given to the Jews so there are no Jews who do not have the law.
Acts 13:46
You would have them saying-the Jews rejected the gospel so we are turning to the Jews. Doesn't make sense does it?
---Warwick on 12/12/13

True, your version is confusion. Having come to christianity late, you've been taught that all Israel are "Jews", or Judah.
The Nth House nations of Israel divorced are not "Jews" or of Judah.
These being divorced/put away by GOD are the 'Lost Sheep" nations referred to in scripture and the context "ethnos","nations" of Romans.
Heb8:8, is specific and recognized by all the Apostles.
---Trav on 12/13/13


Warwick, my sincere apologies, please for give me. I was supposed to address it to David and samuelbb7.
---christan on 12/12/13


David, your commentary about the parent and child has one gigantic flaw. It still doesn't answer my question of how was Noah deemed righteous before God without the ten commandments?

Do remember that only eight lives were on the ark with the animals God brought to Noah. The whole world was then destroyed by God. Was God unrighteous to have destroyed the world since the ten commandments was yet to be given?

So, on what grounds did Noah walk that made him righteous before God since there was no ten commandments? Isn't righteousness attained through the fulfilment of the law of God like what Christ did for His people? Try explaining...
---christan on 12/12/13


Christan, you truly are odd. I do not, nor ever have, supported works salvation. In fact I have quoted texts to you to support that salvation is only by faith, by the grace of God.

If you believe I have promoted works salvation please quote me or be man enough to admit your mistake.

Your thinking upon Noah is not rational.
---Warwick on 12/12/13


Trav, Romans 2:14,15 show that Paul is speaking of those who are not Jewish, 'ethnos' meaning "Gentiles, Pagans.' The law was given to the Jews so there are no Jews who do not have the law. That is a contradiction in terms. That some Jews may not obey the law does not mean they do not have it. No, Paul is talking of Gentiles, (Hebrew Goyim) non-Jews, who do not have the law but live as though it was written on their hearts.

Acts 13:46 clearly shows the Gentiles are not Jews as Paul and Barnabas say the Jews rejected the gospel so they are turning to the Gentiles. You would have them saying-the Jews rejected the gospel so we are turning to the Jews. Doesn't make sense does it?
---Warwick on 12/12/13




I concur.
A person could do something or not do something with indifference.
The act of doing is a much brighter testimony than that of not doing.
There are billions of people every day that I don't kill, but how many have I fed, or visited?
Our actions may eventually show our heart. But, as Jesus and others point out, it is our mouth that is a more direct source.
Mat 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Mat 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart, and they defile the man.
---micha9344 on 12/12/13


I partially agree with you micha9344. The actions you mention are love in action. But not stealing from someone is not indifference. Not committing adultery, nor murdering them is not indifference. Also putting GOD first, keeping his name Holy and avoiding idols spending the Sabbath with him are actions.

But if our actions just stop at not doing harm then we are not truly following JESUS and showing love as you so correctly point out.

Thank you
Agape.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/12/13


"The Ten Commandments are love in action."-Samuelbb7 on 12/12/13
This is an incorrect statement. There is no action in the 10 Commandments. That is why most of them say "do not."
The 10 Commandments are indifference in action.
Love in action is this:
Mat 25:35-36 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world.
Mic 6:8, Jam 2:13, Zec 7:9, Luk 10:27
---micha9344 on 12/12/13


The Ten Commandments are love in action. Love has always been a part of GOD and He has always required us to love others. He has also required us to love HIM.

So the first of the Ten Commandments are about loving GOD and the last are about loving others. So the Ten Commandments have always and will always be in effect.

Romans 13:8

Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Agape to all.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/12/13


Romans 2:14 may, and I repeat may give us a clue.
"For when Gentiles/Etnos who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,"
---Warwick on 12/11/13

More appropriate word is "ethnos".
You left out the defining verse in Romans. Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness,.....
Witnessed scripturally in Heb 8:10/Jer 31:33 you are aware of because I pointed to it previously...you avoided it.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: .....
---Trav on 12/12/13


Trav
I'm glad you brought out the verses you did, with that I can show you the other side of the teaching, so they don't conflict.
Look at an earthly father.

Does that love grow more for the obedient, or the disobedient child?
---David on 12/10/13

Your "other side" you're not seeing, is more plainly seen in witnesses of divorced Israel and the prodigal son parable. It is inheritance by promise because of love. Not law.
Luk 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again, and was lost, and is found.

Matt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
---Trav on 12/12/13


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Christan
If a child does everything that is pleasing in the eyes of their parents, and they do not do those things that displease their parents, do they need to be given laws by which they should live? (Noah & Abraham)

But if a child does not do those things that please their parents, and do those things that displease their parents, how can those parents punish those children, unless they are given the Law? (The children of Abraham)

Could a righteous judge punish you for speeding, if there were no posted speed limits? Without the Law, we wouldn't know sin.
---David on 12/12/13


Warwick & David,

If anyone that doesn't make sense as far as salvation to Noah is concerned, it's the both of you. You keep knocking on the door of works of the law to be saved and I ask you, what did Noah do to be considered righteous?

After all, the 10 commandments from God was yet to be given. So how was he made righteous before God if your theory of works for salvation is to be believed? Answer please.

Grace is the only answer to salvation, "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." - that's how Noah was saved!

Your sequence of Genesis 6:8,9 is out of whack!
---christan on 12/11/13


It does not mean that it was then a day for worship, of course. Peter

Dear Peter

If it was not a day of worship then, then how can it be made a day of worship now? Are you saying that even though the Apostles and the Bible do not say to not keep Sabbath and that is was the day of worship for the early church. That people had a right to set up a new day of worship?

What do you think of the people who tell me I am going to hell for keeping Sabbath and not keeping Sunday?

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 12/11/13


Christan, your thinking is not logical. As Noah lived before God gave Moses the 10 Commandments He could not be expected to obey them. If he had lived post the 10 Commandments He would be called to obey them.

Romans 2:14 may, and I repeat may give us a clue. I am well aware the Romans were Gentile BTW. "For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves," This principle could apply to pre-commandments Hebrews as well.
---Warwick on 12/11/13


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How convenient of you to leave out Genesis 6:8 - "But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord--christen

Christan
You conveniently forgot (Verse 9) where it tells us why Noah found Grace in the eyes of the Lord.
If Noah found Grace in the eyes of the Lord, and it was not because he "walked with the Lord", why didn't God save everyone?

Also, do you honestly believe Jesus lied to the man in (Matthew 19:16-17), just to make a point?
If Jesus lied to this man, how can you also believe Jesus is the Son of God???
---David on 12/11/13


//why does Paul teach against justification by works, and James teaches justification by deeds?//
James, is a legalist ministering to the nation of Israel, under the earthly kingdom gospel, faith plus works.
Paul, ministers to jew and gentile under the gospel of grace, on an individual basis, faith plus nothing.
---michael_e on 12/11/13


"(Genesis 6:9) Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God." David

How convenient of you to leave out Genesis 6:8 - "But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord."

Did Noah become righteous because he performed the ten commandments? O, wait a minute, there was no ten commandments yet, was there? So how did he become righteous outside of faith in God, since you keep saying you will be justified by the deeds of the law when there was no ten commandments yet for Noah to be justified by?

When Peter wrote "But grow in grace", he simply meant if God was working in you "...as it is written, The just shall live by faith."
---christan on 12/10/13


There is one case, though, where it is mentioned, though it is easier if you read it in Greek than in English. It is in Rev 1:10 Now the term 'the Lord's day is the Greek term for Sunday, from then until today.

It seems that John, by the time he wrote Revelation had moved from calling it 'the first day' to calling it 'the Lord's day'.

It does not mean that it was then a day for worship, of course. Peter

I do not believe that the Greeks before Christianity called Sunday the Lord's day. But Jews did call Sabbath the day that GOD was the LORD of.

Mar 2:28
Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

There is no indication of that being the first day of the week in the passage.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/10/13


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You are interpreting John 14:21 incorrect- Trav

Trav
I'm glad you brought out the verses you did, with that I can show you the other side of the teaching, so they don't conflict.

I'm not saying that all of God's love is merited.(John 3:16) is evidence of this. This happened before any of us were born, so we couldn't have done anything to deserve his love.

Gods, merited love, is much like a seed. Your obedience, to what God commands of you through his Holy Spirit, is how you make his love grow.

Look at an earthly father. They have love for their children when they are born, but that love grows for the child throughout their lives.
Does that love grow more for the obedient, or the disobedient child?
---David on 12/10/13


It looks like everyone is pulling out pet Bible verses to support their beliefs, and that some are trying to force their works belief system on those of us who believe in grace.

If the works believers were to do inductive studies of the books of James and Romans, they might understand why people, like me, aren't going to follow their way.

I'm not going to pull Bible verses out of context to prove I'm right and you're wrong. This argument is going nowhere.
---Grandma on 12/9/13


Samuelbb7 on 12/9/13 : 'Setting up the first day as a day of worship is never mentioned. So where did it come from?'

Samuel, you are right it is not mentioned.

There is one case, though, where it is mentioned, though it is easier if you read it in Greek than in English. It is in Rev 1:10 'I was in the Spirit in the Lord's day'. Now the term 'the Lord's day is the Greek term for Sunday, from then until today.

It seems that John, by the time he wrote Revelation had moved from calling it 'the first day' to calling it 'the Lord's day'.

It does not mean that it was then a day for worship, of course

But some change had begun in the way Christians described Sunday, the day of the week the resurrection had occurred
---Peter on 12/9/13


David,
You are interpreting John 14:21 incorrectly.

If your interpretation were accurate, it would make several verses false such as:

1Jn 4:19 We love him, because he "first" loved us.
---micha9344 on 12/4/13

To tie "first", scripture to your response we would find:

Deu_7:7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people, for ye were the fewest of all people:

Deu_10:15 Only the LORD had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them, even you above all people, as it is this day.

Mat_15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
---Trav on 12/9/13


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David, you got the story of Noah mixed up. Noah was righteous before God before the flood came. He and his family were saved from drowning when the flood came. That does not mean he was not spiritually saved already. How can someone be righteous without God? It is impossible. No one who is unsaved is righteous.
"Enter not into judgment with they servant, for no man living is righteous before Thee" (Ps. 143:2).
"Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins" (Eccl. 7:20).
Also read (Rom. 3:9-12).
---Mark_V. on 12/9/13


The question is, is it you by yourself that does the good works or is it Christ in you that is doing the good works?
When Christ is in us, it is Christ that does the good works/deeds.
We by ourselves could never accomplish anything.

To love & have patience, & kindness, & longsuffering, meekness, & gentleness, Christ MUST be in us.
Always ask yourself WHY you do something. Is it to bring glory to yourself or to God?
---g on 12/9/13


Only Jewish Christians and pockets of Judaizers observed the Jewish Sabbath.

You are free nonetheless to observe any day as holy but you are not to insist that others do the same. elee7538

I do not insist I point out what the Bible says.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

The Sabbath is mentioned in 55 verses in the New Testament. Setting up the first day as a day of worship is never mentioned. So where did it come from?


Act 13:42-44 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Lot of Gentiles showed up for church on Sabbath.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/9/13


(Genesis 6:9) Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Folks
Wasn't Noah righteous in the eyes of Gods, before the flood?
Wasn't Noah saved by the same unchanging God, who will save you?

I ask this because many of you seem to believe God saves you, and then you become righteous, and not that he saves you because you are righteous, as in the example of Noah.

Remember, Noah is used as an example of one who was saved by the New Testament teachers, and he was righteous before he was saved.
This is an irrefutable fact.
---David on 12/9/13


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David, you give:
"Who does Paul say will be justified in (Romans 2:13)?
"For it is not the hearers of the law who are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified"
The passage is true, only believers in Christ are justified, they are the doers of the law and are not under the curse.
Because Paul says in (Gal. 3:10)
"For all who rely on the works of the law are under the curse, for it is written "cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them" he also said after,
"Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for the righteous shall live by faith, but the law is not faith"
---Mark_V. on 12/9/13


Titus 2:11-12
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,.

12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world,.


Christan simply does not understand the true definition of GRACE.
---kathr4453 on 12/8/13


David 12/8 - Not one writer in New testament teaches what you say ?
( The author of the Bible is God )

2 Timothy 3:16 - All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is Profitable for doctrine , for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

Romans 3:24 - Being Justified freely by His Grace though the redemption that is Christ Jesus,
Romans 3:35 - Whom God hath set forth to be propitiation through faith in his blood , to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God,

Romans 3:28 - Therefore we can conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law,
---RICHARDC on 12/8/13


Christan
You are reading (Romans 11:6) from your understanding of the word Grace.
If your definition of Grace was right, why would Paul teach in (Romans 2:6-7) those who continually do good, will receive Eternal Life?

You must take the entirety of Paul's writings to determine context. You must also take in the fact that not one writer in the New Testament teaches what you say Paul is saying.
Notice that I have given you other writers that say what I say.

Who does Paul say will be justified in (Romans 2:13)?
"For it is not the hearers of the law who are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified."
---David on 12/8/13


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(2 Peter 3:18)
But grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.



Christan
How does someone "Grow in Grace", if nothing is required to make Grace grow?
---David on 12/8/13


And yet the very same apostle explicitly declared, "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." Romans 11:6

"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began," 2 Timothy 2:19

Is there contradiction to Paul's teachings? ABSOLUTELY NOT! He confirmed it in Ephesians 2:10.

So, thy understanding is erroneous.
---christan on 12/7/13


James does NOT teach justification by deeds. He teaches that our deeds are the evidence of our faith.

By the way, I am born again, saved, going to heaven. I worship on Sunday, and eat shellfish and pork.

God is good, all the time. All the time, God is good.
---Grandma on 12/7/13


Titus 3:5 - Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he has saved us, by the washing regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost,

Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace ye are saved through faith, and that is not of yourselves, it is a gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 - Not of Works, lest and man should Boast,
---RICHARDC on 12/7/13


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Friends, Romans and countrymen, it appears the dreaded Lee has returned. He bobs up every now and then as Lee, Leeonia, LeeM et al and it appears (from the beliefs expressed, and the style of writing) that he is back as elee. I may be wrong and elee may set me straight. We shall see!

Why does Lee change his name? Why do people usually change their names? To hide their true identity mostly.
---Warwick on 12/7/13


All saying the same thing. Truth or a Lie? You decide.

(Revelation 22:12)
My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.
(Revelation 22:14)"Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have the right to the Tree of Life."

(Romans 2:6-7)God, who will render to each one according to his deeds Eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good

(Matthew 19:16-17) Now behold, one came and said to Him, Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?
So He said to him, Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.
---David on 12/7/13


"Nor were such observed or taught in the early Gentile church." elee7537

You're absolutely right! In fact, it was Paul who rebuked Peter for being "double standard" in Galatians 2:11-15 before concluding in verse 16,17:

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid."
---christan on 12/6/13


Samuelbb7 - while the Sabbath was not cancelled in the New Covenant, nowhere in the New Covenant do we see even a hint of a command to observe any day as holy. If the Sabbath or other distinctive Jewish laws were mandated we most certainly would see it taught in the early church as well as commanded in the New Testament scriptures but we do not.

Only Jewish Christians and pockets of Judaizers observed the Jewish Sabbath.
---
you are free nonetheless to observe any day as holy but you are not to insist that others do the same.
---elee7538 on 12/6/13


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Yes no one knowledgeable of the Bible and its Author would dispute that the Jesus and Jewish believers observed ALL the law as much as their ability but you ignore the fact that the Sabbath and the Levitical dietary laws were not part of the New covenant. Nor were such observed or taught in the early Gentile church. elee7537

You can make an argument from the Bible about unclean or unhealthy eating as not forbidden. But I trust that my Maker knows what is best and healthest for me to eat so I follow those laws.

The Sabbath is no where canceled in the New Testament. It is still called the Sabbath and all meet on that day. The First day is never mentioned as a day of worship. So where is it cancelled from the New Covenant?
---Samuelbb7 on 12/6/13


David, James is talking to believers, giving this example "What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?" James 2:14. In verse 18 he says he will show them his faith in God (which he already has) by what he does. He poses no conflict between faith (which saves) and works, which must follow. What James is saying is in line with Ephesians 2:10 we are "created in Christ Jesus for good works,....."

We were created in Christ for good works but the good works will not save us, only faith will. James tells us that works are commanded for the saved and anyone who claims to be saved but has no good works is fooling himself.
---Warwick on 12/6/13


to ---Samuelbb7

Yes no one knowledgeable of the Bible and its Author would dispute that the Jesus and Jewish believers observed ALL the law as much as their ability but you ignore the fact that the Sabbath and the Levitical dietary laws were not part of the New covenant. Nor were such observed or taught in the early Gentile church.
---elee7537 on 12/6/13


David, you quote James 2:24-26 to justify your erroneous understanding of faith and works as written by James. He never said that one will be justified by works to be saved.

What James wrote was in harmony to Paul's epistle in Ephesians 2:10, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

Meaning, after being justified by faith, God will give his elect good works to do during his Christian walk - which is prove of his salvation that he cannot boast about (see verse 9).

Your cart is before the horse.
---christan on 12/6/13


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MarkV and Christian we seem to be on the same side. Loved your commentary on Luke 10 MarkV.

To Lee:
some today strive to observe the Sabbath but the Sabbath keepers of our Lord's day were the ones that brought Him to the Cross. e.lee7537

JESUS, the apostles as well as all the thousands of member who joined the church Sabbath Keepers. Sunday keeping was a latter invention.

As for eating food that GOD says is bad for you to eat. You obey some of those laws too you just do not think about it. Do you dogs, cats, rats of dead things on the side of the road that have rotted. Do you wash your hands. These are all part of the health regulations that GOD gave. Disobeying them do not cause you to be lost. Just make you sick.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/6/13


Where does James teach justification by deeds?
Warwick
My friend, good to hear from you again.
(James 2:24-26)
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


If you are referring to my use of the word "Deeds", a deed is the same thing as a Good Work.
In the minds of many they see the word, "works", in the context of Paul's letter's. I am trying to show them there is a difference, a difference that can change their lives.(John 14:21)
---David on 12/6/13


David & Nana, you show verses that I do not dispute at all but the only dispute I have is your understanding.

The both of you are classic examples of the rich young ruler in Matthew 19:16-30, who only wanted to be justified by works of the law. As Paul declared "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God." Romans 10:3

To which the apostles were astonished and asked: "Who then can be saved?" Christ simply replied, "With men this is impossible".

Scriptures never contradict scriptures, and Romans 2:6,7 is in perfect harmony with Matthew 19:16-30.
---christan on 12/6/13


David, the parable speaks against works. Jesus was speaking to the diciples which had just asked for more faith. The point of this passage in (Luke 17:7-10) was that a servant should expect no special reward for doing what was his duty in the first place. Those who obey are not to think their obedience is meritorious. The demanding standards Christ set (v.1-4) may have seemed too hight to the disciples, but they represented only the minimal duties for a servant of Christ.
You are looking for any passage that can help your belief's that works is required for salvation. Salvation of all of God's grace. Nothing you do is worth anything. While lost, it is all filthy rags.
---Mark_V. on 12/6/13


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David, where exactly does James teach justification by deeds?
---Warwick on 12/5/13


Adetunji - true that the follower of Christ must strive to keep the commandments. But guess what? Not all commandments in the Bible are applicable to the church. Many of the Old Testament commandments such as the Sabbath, the dietary laws, etc. were directed to the nation of Israel alone. Of course, some today strive to observe the Sabbath but the Sabbath keepers of our Lord's day were the ones that brought Him to the Cross. So why would anyone want to identify with the Lord's chief enemies.
---e.lee7537 on 12/5/13


Christan://"He who has My commandments and keeps them". Notice Christ said "keeps" and not "perform". Huge difference!// Glory be to God that in the light of His word and truth, faulty doctrines have no straw to hold onto. Keeping God's commandments and performing or carrying out God's instructions have no difference except to you.
---Adetunji on 12/5/13


MarkV your five points are correct.

This parable of JESUS explains the relationship of works and Faith.


Luk 17:7-10

But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?
And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken, and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?
Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.
So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

Agape to all.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/5/13


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\\Notice Christ said "keeps" and not "perform". Huge difference!\\

Is there?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/5/13


Christan
If your understanding of Grace is true, it is not I who contradicts himself, it is Paul.
For Paul also said in (Romans 2:6-7) God "will repay each person according to what they have done." To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Can you see the contradiction?
Why does Paul say God will give Eternal Life, as a reward, to those who do good, if your understanding of Grace is the Truth?

Notice how I do not speak for the verse, but let the verse speak for itself. You tend to choose verses that you need to speak for. Why is that?
---David on 12/5/13


David, what Jesus was teaching the disciples in (John 14:15-31) were the promises given to believers. Blessings that the world does not enjoy,
1. a Supernatural Helper (v. 15-17).
2. a supernatural life (v.18,19).
3. a supernatural union (v.20-25).
4. a supernatural Teacher (v.26).
5. a supernatural peace (v. 27-31).
The key to all of this acts is (v.15) which relates that these supernatural promises are for those who love Jesus Christ, whose love is evident by obidience.
It is not talking about how you can get saved, but when you are saved already.
---Mark_V. on 12/5/13


"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."
"Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:"
"If ye love me, keep my commandments."

Is "keep" a stumbling block?

Of 'keep' without 'perform', we have a great example in Matthew 25:24_30. He is the "wicked and slothful servant".

Way to go christan, building castles in the sand again?
---Nana on 12/5/13


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"I have always been curious as to why many people who say they believe Jesus is the Son of God, do not believe what he taught." David

You contradict yourself. Wasn't Paul an apostle of Jesus Christ and he taught these very words, "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." Romans 11:6

If anyone who's lacking faith, it's you. You're just so desperate to be saved by your works of claiming, you have have been saved because of "He who has My commandments and keeps them". Notice Christ said "keeps" and not "perform". Huge difference!
---christan on 12/4/13


David,
You are interpreting John 14:21 incorrectly.
If your interpretation were accurate, it would make several verses false such as:
1Jn 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.
---micha9344 on 12/4/13


//Can you tell me why you do not believe what Jesus says in this verse?//
---David on 12/4/13

David one problem with the church over the past few years is focusing solely on salvation and heaven. While that is the most important topic it is not the only topic. Viewing only this topic makes us fearful of losing that eternal security when God has given us so much more that eternal security but daily peace and life (John 10:10). This is what that verse John 14 is refering to. See Soloman, He was saved but forgot a daily reliance on God
---Scott1 on 12/4/13


The problem with your theory is you don't belief in grace 100%, ---christan on 12/3/13

Christan
No, I just don't believe that Gods Grace is unmerited.
Grace is being in the favor of God.

Does anyone know the Father better than the Son of God?
How does the Son of God say we can gain his favor in (John 14:21)?

"He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.

I have always been curious as to why many people who say they believe Jesus is the Son of God, do not believe what he taught.
Can you tell me why you do not believe what Jesus says in this verse?
---David on 12/4/13


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David, in an attempt to speak for works of the law, you try to re-lable works and deeds. Why do you not understand?
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast" (Eph. 2:8,9). Our salvation is 100% of Grace. We are told, lest anyone should boast. you are boasting that we are saved by works, works of the law never saved anyone, it was not given for that purpose, but to know what is sin.

Paul often says that we are saved "through" faith, that is, as the instrumental cause, but never once does he say that we are saved "on account of" faith, that is, as the meritorious cause.
---Mark_V. on 12/4/13


\\...read (James 2:14) again, where he sets the context...\\
---David

Wrong, David.

Context is set in in 2:12 - Speak And Act As Those Who Will Be Judged By The Law Of Liberty. Judgment Will Be Without Mercy For Those Who Have Not Shown Mercy. Mercy Triumphs Over Judgment. What Use Is If If A Man Says He Has Faith But Has No Works, Can Faith By Itself Save Him

Save him from what? The Judgment which was just mentioned


\\If the teaching was about the White throne judgment, why would he ask, "Can faith save him?"\\
---David

It NOT the Great White Throne, it's the Judgment Seat of Christ - 1Cor 3:10-15, 2Cor 5:10

Faith alone cannot save us from suffering loss of rewards
---James_L on 12/4/13


David, just a reminder - didn't faith alone save the thief on the cross who was just next to Christ at Calvary? What "works/deeds" did he manage to perform while hanging on that cross before he died?

The problem with your theory is you don't belief in grace 100%, that's why you seek so desperately to perform "works/deeds" to be justified with faith. Go read Romans 3,4 - God does include "works/deeds" in order to be justified by faith.

Good works is a given after you're justified by faith, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:10
---christan on 12/3/13


One's faith is evidenced by one's deeds, not to God: for God see the heart already, but to fellow man.
We will know them by their fruit, whether they are true or deceiving themselves or others.
The only way to know what good fruit looks like is by the Word of God.
Faith is measured by obedience and is counted toward us as righteousness.
Works apart from this is as filthy rags.
It is this faith in Who works through us that justifies and not of works lest any man should boast.
James says if your not exercising what you believe to be true, do you really believe it?
---micha9344 on 12/3/13


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Matthew 15:19 "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:"

What are those things, works or deeds?

Romans 9:32 "Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law."

Galatians 5:19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these, Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, "

Some in error equate works of the flesh with works of the law.

"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
---Nana on 12/3/13


James
You may also want to read (James 2:14) again, where he sets the context of his teaching on faith.
" What does it profit my brothern, though a man says he has faith, and have not works? Can faith save him?"

If the teaching was about the White throne judgment, why would he ask, "Can faith save him?"
---David on 12/3/13


James
You're forgetting one very important matter. If we are saved by grace through faith and faith without deeds is worthless, how can that faith save you?
If it could save you, wouldn't it have value?
---David on 12/3/13


There is a difference between "Works and "Deeds". And the reason there is such church division over this matter, is because many do not recognize there is a difference.

Paul gives us a perfect illustration of this difference in the following apparent confliction.
In (Romans 2:13), Paul says we are justified by keeping the Law. But a few chapters later Paul says in (Romans 4:1-6), that we are not justified by keeping the Law.
The difference is in the reason one keeps the Law.

Ex: If you are ordered to shovel a sidewalk, you see it as work.
But if you are doing it for your Grandmother (someone you love) you do not see it as a work, because you are doing it out of your love for your Grandmother.
---David on 12/3/13


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Let's try not adding religious components to normal words.

"save" simply means spare - anything from "spare" money, to "sparing" the life of a human.

"justified" simply means prove to be warranted, and can relate to a person, his actions, or his situation - anything from a "justifiable" homicide to "justifying" a change of name for witness protection.

Paul said that a person is justified in being declared righteous, on the basis of faith only. See Rom 4:5

James said that a man is justified in receiving rewards on the basis of faith and works - at the Judgment Seat of Christ - see 2:12 and 3:1. ALL the verses in between are in the same context
---James_L on 12/3/13


They are the same thing on the outside. The reason behind the action makes the difference.
For example, I can give money to the church as a work for salvation (what Paul teaches against) or I can give money to the church as a work by salvation (what James is for). Deeds and works is just a difference in language preference between the two men. See 2 Corithians (I think Ch15) where Paul talks about the Macedoians and their gift to the Jews.
---Scott1 on 12/2/13


Talking about "works or deeds" does not imply that salvation is going to come from one who's a works/deeds monger.

Paul elaborated this in complete detail in all his epistles, no more so than in Romans 3,4, Galatians 3,4. But the best piece came from Romans 11:5,6

"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

There's no confusion to salvation as far as the Holy Bible is concerned. It's 100% of GOD'S GRACE!
---christan on 12/2/13


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