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Compromised Non-Profit Status

What will 'YOU' do when you find out that your denominational church compromises the Gospel to keep its non-profit status as dictated by the IRS?

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 ---Steveng on 12/3/13
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KarenD: My nephew loves participating in Special Olympics. My brother coached one of his teams, prior to his death. Now, my sis-in-law coaches. My sister volunteers in fund raising. I volunteered as well. It's an awesome organization, and one that receives no government money. It is funded with the help of corporations, other organizations, such as police and fire departments, individuals and fund raising events.

Jed: You don't need to be rude. I've worked with people on Social Security for years, and never, ever heard of Supplemental Security Income referred to as SSID, until Cluny used it. You could have just corrected me politely, instead of calling names. Not everyone here is trying to win a debate.
---Grandma on 12/17/13


Grandma...The rules for those working with a job coach do not apply to others. These are special rules for special people. Our son is one of those special people and he loves competing in Special Olympics.
---KarenD on 12/16/13


Grandma, again you display your ignorance of the subject. SSI is the same as SSID. Some people call it SSI and other call it SSID, they both mean the same thing. Disability (or SSDI) is funded by the Social Security trust fund. SSI (or SSID) is a supplemental program funded by the general revenue of the treasury for folks who didn't pay enough into Social Security to get enough back.
---Jed on 12/16/13


Grandma, again you display your ignorance of the subject. SSI is the same as SSID. Some people call it SSI and other call it SSID, they both mean the same thing. Disability (or SSDI) is funded by the Social Security trust fund. SSI (or SSID) is a supplemental program funded by the general revenue of the treasury for folks who didn't pay enough into Social Security to get enough back.
---Jed on 12/16/13


I erred greatly when I disclosed so much personal information on these blogs. I admit it now.

May I ask, therefore, that it not be argued about?

Please.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/16/13




Jed, according to the Social Security website, there are two benefits which can be received if one is not of the normal Social Security age. Disability OR Supplemental Security Income (SSI). There is no SSID abbreviation. Cluny has never named which benefit he actually receives, and has given a made up abbreviation for the benefit he receives.

If he does receive Supplemental Security Income, he could have still contributed to Social Security at some point.

My nephew has been receiving SSI since he turned 18, but still works part time, with the help of a job coach. Social Security allows those who receive benefits to earn a certain amount per month.
---Grandma on 12/16/13


Grandma, apparently you aren't aware of what SSID is. Or that it is the law to pay SS on all income.
---Jed on 12/16/13


Jed: Cluny said his job as church organist did not pay into Social Security on his behalf. He did not say he did not have any other job, which may have paid into it on his behalf. You keep jumping to conclusions.
---Grandma on 12/16/13



Where did you get the idea I had paid nothing in?

Please explain this, Jed.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

---Cluny on 12/15/13


You indicated that you did not pay SS tax (at least on your income you made at your church). You have also indicated that you receive SSID, a program which supplements those who did not contribute enough to the Social Security trust funds. SSID payments are made from the general revenue of the treasury from income taxes, not from the SS trust fund.
---Jed on 12/15/13


Even if they were actually thieves robbing you at gunpoint

What do you mean "even if". This is exactly what it is! If you refuse to pay up, you WILL be arrested at gunpoint by armed officers.

You have a serious problem comprehending the difference between charitable giving (which is done willfully at the sole discretion of the giver) and forcing other people to pay for your irresponsible lifestyle.
---Jed on 12/15/13




\\Since he paid nothing in, he should receive nothing!\\

Where did you get the idea I had paid nothing in?

Please explain this, Jed.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/15/13


Jed:

You said: Since he paid nothing in, he should receive nothing! ... People on the receiving end never think that someone else has to pay for what they are getting, and that they are taking what someone else has worked for.

My, what a charitable Christian attitude! Jesus was very sympathetic to the poor. You apparently aren't. Even if they were actually thieves robbing you at gunpoint, wouldn't "turn the other cheek" apply?

It's an employee's responsibility to pay taxes, but his employer's responsibility to deduct and forward them. Most people trust employers to do so, but if they find years later it wasn't done, they're left holding the short stick. I have known several people in that situation.
---StrongAxe on 12/14/13



This explains your low benefits now. You received and used the SS money. It was your responsibility to pay those taxes. Now you are reaping the result.
---Elder on 12/14/13


Actually, he's not even reaping the full results. Since he paid nothing in, he should receive nothing! Now he is living off money that other people paid in, so they will receive less when they are old because they had to pay for him. This is what happens when people don't pay their share. People on the receiving end never think that someone else has to pay for what they are getting, and that they are taking what someone else has worked for.
---Jed on 12/14/13


KarenD:

Cluny is a priest in the Orthodox church (i.e. he holds an ordination, with all the privileges and responsibilities of that title). However, he is a monk, rather than the leader of a congregation, so he is not "the priest" of any specific Orthodox church.

Merely having ministerial credentials does not automatically entitle one to a salary, any more than having professional credentials (like a doctorate) does. If it did, the internet ordination mills where anyone can send an email and receive a ministerial credentials by return email would be making a killing, and EVERYONE would be a minister.
---StrongAxe on 12/14/13


\\Cluny...FYI....I have thought for a few years that you were a priest in the Orthodox Church because of several posts you have made in the past. Guess I was wrong.
---KarenD on 12/14/13\\

Right. You were wrong.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/14/13


Cluny...FYI....I have thought for a few years that you were a priest in the Orthodox Church because of several posts you have made in the past. Guess I was wrong.
---KarenD on 12/14/13


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So, Cluny what you first wrote is misleading.

"BTW, when I was an organist, while Income Taxes (fed, state, and county) were withheld, SS was not."
Cluny
This explains your low benefits now. You received and used the SS money. It was your responsibility to pay those taxes. Now you are reaping the result.

If SS were to recover the money they would take it from you.
---Elder on 12/14/13


\\You gave reference to church workers and then said, "That's where I find myself."
---Elder on 12/13/1\\

But I didn't say I was a CHURCH WORKER in that position, now did I?

Nor did I say that I was a minister.

BTW, when I was an organist, while Income Taxes (fed, state, and county) were withheld, SS was not.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/14/13


Cluny....LOL.....In other words, you don't want to tell us.
---KarenD on 12/14/13


"Or whose work (such as for churches) did NOT pay into SS. That's where I find myself."
Cluny

I would think that KarenD deduced her thoughts from this statement.

It appears to me that is what you said,

You gave reference to church workers and then said, "That's where I find myself."
---Elder on 12/13/13


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You're asking too many personal questions that are none of your concern, KarenD.

Glory to jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/13/13


Cluny...Why did you not pay into social security?
---KarenD on 12/12/13


\\Cluny...please explain why you did not pay into social security as a minister.
---KarenD on 12/11/13\\

Where did you get the idea I said I was a minister, or was working for the church?

Please go back and read what I said.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/12/13


Cluny...please explain why you did not pay into social security as a minister.
---KarenD on 12/11/13


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Karen in the last 30 years I haven't seen any laws different than what I described.
A Pastor receiving an expense account for gas, supplies and so forth doesn't have to pay SS taxes on that money. If there is excess that is spent on personal items they do.
I've been involved with these issues for many years to protect the churches I've started and helped.
It is also against the law to take money out of the offering plate to give to visiting ministers. There is a lot that needs to be realized.
We take courses every year or so through The Center for Law and Justice to keep current on these issues.
Unless something changed recently the above and other posts are correct.
---Elder on 12/11/13


Elder...The rules were different for many years.
---KarenD on 12/11/13


Cluny, Federal law mandates Social Security payments. This applies to any State or territories but not non-U.S. countries.
If someone maintains a residence in the U.S. the laws still apply.
Again, if you were being paid by a ministry and were not legally able to opt out, someone has committed fraud if these taxes were not paid.
You might want to check on this. If money is owed you will benefit from it.

KarenD, your statement applies to any volunteer work in any trade. If there is no pay there is nothing for Social Security to collect or tax.
---Elder on 12/11/13


If you earn money, you have to pay into Social Security, period. If you were on the church's payroll, they legally had to deduct SS from your paycheck and send it to IRS. If you were a subcontracted worker then you paid this as part of the self employment tax. If you received money without claiming it on your taxes (either as an employee of the church or as a self employed worker) then you committed tax evasion.

At any rate, social security was designed as a sort of retirement system for people who paid into it. Taking their money and giving it to folks who didn't pay in is robbing from those individuals and is abuse of the system.
---Jed on 12/11/13


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Elder...Not all churches are required to pay into social security. Our congregation has no paid employees. Only paid employees are required to pay social security and the church would then be required to pay their part of the social security.
---KarenD on 12/10/13


\\Cluny, all Churches are required to pay into Social Security. Some States even require Churches to be incorporated.\\

This was not the case where I lived or before my health broke down.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/10/13


Cluny, all Churches are required to pay into Social Security. Some States even require Churches to be incorporated.
Those who are Ordained into the Ministry can opt out of Social Security unless they are working a secular job.
If you worked at a Church/Ministry that didn't take Social Security tax out of your paycheck then you opted out or they violated the law and you have money due. Labor law violations do not expire. If you opted out then you have or should have received the money that would have been payed as a tax to Social Security.
---Elder on 12/10/13


\\SSID is for those who did not work enough to pay a lot into social security.
---KarenD on 12/9/1\\

Or whose work (such as for churches) did NOT pay into SS. That's where I find myself.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/10/13


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Dear Trish and Cluny,
I understand that all these things are complicated, and many things we do not understand. I had to look them up, and the social security web page is ridiculously complex, even though I have dealt with a total of four countries' national pension and social systems.

None is simple, and trying to work out what each person is trying to say, especially when we have a limit of (I think) 125 words, is not so easy.

But I think the idea of changing the amount one can get paid depending on where you live is fairer, really.

If one lives in a more expensive area, one's disability benefit ought to be higher

Cluny, it is unfortunate that you cannot get into the more 'complete' SSDI system
---Peter on 12/9/13


Thank you for clearing up my confusion.

I am on SSDI, and my benefit amount did not change when I moved from a high cost of living, urban area, to a low cost of living, rural area, in an entirely different state.

My nephew has been on the SSID, now that I understand the letters.

I will say that the way Cluny words things does cause some confusion.
---Trish on 12/9/13


SSID is for those who did not work enough to pay a lot into social security.
---KarenD on 12/9/13


Thank you, Peter.

SSID is calculated on many things. One of them is where the person lives.

And I went on SSID under the wonderful Bush fils years.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/9/13


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Trish: Cluny said 'and the limit on that is $710 in my city and state.'

It was not that it PAID by the city or state.

But a number of things do factor in the cost of living in each place - whether or not you are disabled, you need more to live in Brooklyn than to live in Montana.

So some things, including some benefits, do factor in where you live - even federal ones
---Peter on 12/8/13


Trish: I've looked up Cluny's SSID, and it's the correct letters

It stands for Supplemental Security Income and the D is for Disability

At least that seems to be what Cluny means

It is different from SSDI - and SSID does vary depending on what your needs are, including a factor for where you live. So Cluny's benefits may be different from someone's who lives in New York City
---Peter on 12/8/13


\\Cluny: Whatever you are on must not be Social Security Disability.\\

I never said it was.

I was told by the Federal government that I was on--please read carefully--

S * S * I * D.

Do you get it now?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/9/13


SSDI = Social Security Disability Insurance

SSI = Supplemental Security Income

SSID = Service Set Identifier. This has to do with devices that connect to a wireless network.

It sure would be funny if Cluny meant SSDI and not SSID.
Would that count as a misspelled word?

Also... "Big Jed want to control poor people, I see."
Cluny on 12/8/13

By the way, the word is spelled, "wants." Spelled correctly the subject and verb will agree.
LOL.....
---Elder on 12/9/13


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Trish,
my mother had not worked in years because of a disability. When she reached retirement age, she had options - either draw Social Security by way of her first husband who died while they were married, or by way of my dad, from whom she was divorced.

Either way, it was not much money because neither husband had paid in very much

Therefore, she qualified for SSID - Supplemental Security Income for those with a Disability

And the SSID came from the State, not Federal government
---James_L on 12/9/13


Cluny: Whatever you are on must not be Social Security Disability. Social Security Disability is NOT managed by any city, or any state. It is FEDERAL. No local or state management takes place with Social Security. I am receiving Social Security Disability, and my benefit amount is much higher than your. Please tell us what the letters SSID stand for. It appears you're spreading misinformation about Social Security Disability.
---Trish: on 12/8/13


\\Cluny: Why did you tell Jed, "Jed, $710 is the most one can get on SSID." if you know someone who receives $1000 a month? I don't get it.
---Trish on 12/8/13\\

Trish, I will repeat what I said.

I know someone who gets over $1000 a month on SSD.

But I get SSID, and the limit on that is $710 in my city and state.

Do you understand the difference now?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/8/13


Cluny: Why did you tell Jed, "Jed, $710 is the most one can get on SSID." if you know someone who receives $1000 a month? I don't get it.
---Trish on 12/8/13


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\\I have also told you of my last church that closed down, their tax exempt status was revoked for preaching morality.
---Jed on 12/6/13\\

If everyone at your worldly denominational church was as loving to the poor as you, Jed, no wonder God allowed it to be closed down.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/8/13


TRISH, I'VE MISSED YOU!!!
---Jed on 12/7/13


\\When I worked at McDonalds 6 years ago, I took home $500/month and received no government assistance.//

Do I detect some jealousy or envy in your statement?

\\ If a person has high-speed internet and cable TV, they don't need food stamps, they need to cancle their TV subscription.\\

Big Jed want to control poor people, I see.

BTW, the word is spelled "canCEL".

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/8/13


\\Cluny: Well, you've been misinformed. $710 a month is not the most a person can collect while on Disability. I know someone whose benefit will be $2,000 on January 1st.
---Trish on \\

Oh, I know someone whose SSD is over 1000.

But my own SSID is only 710, and that's the maximum for which I qualify.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/7/13


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Trish, glad to have you back. When I was a kid I knew a man who received well over $1000 a month.
As I understand you receive based on what you put in.
Sometimes it is too late to cry about what SSI pays when someone didn't work to put money in for later.
---Elder on 12/7/13


Cluny: Well, you've been misinformed. $710 a month is not the most a person can collect while on Disability. I know someone whose benefit will be $2,000 on January 1st.
---Trish on 12/7/13



Jed, $710 is the most one can get on SSID.


Not even close to being true. Perhaps that is the most YOU are entitled to. I personally know people who are getting over $2,000/month on Disability.

Can YOU live on less than $25 a day? I doubt it.

When I worked at McDonalds 6 years ago, I took home $500/month and received no government assistance.

This is hardly income equality. Why do you begrudge it to me and others?

Used appropriately, welfare would be given only to individuals who are doing everything they can but still need help to meet their basic needs. If a person has high-speed internet and cable TV, they don't need food stamps, they need to cancle their TV subscription.

---Jed on 12/7/13


Steveng...Why do you keep asking the same questions over and over? You have yet to name a denomination that compromises the Gospel to keep its non-profit status.
---KarenD on 12/7/13


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Cluny: What does the I stand for?

The Social Security Administration has two programs, that I know of. SSD or SSDI: Social Security Disability Income. OR, SSI: Supplemental Security Income. Never heard of SSID.
---Trish on 12/7/13


The D is for Disability, Trish.

That's why I'm on it. I'm disabled.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/7/13


Cluny: What is SSID? I am on SSD, Social Security Disability. My nephew is on SSD, and SSI, Supplemental Security Income. I've never heard of SSID.
---Trish: on 12/6/13


\\Welfare is being used by liberal lawmakers and politicians to acheive income equality, rather than provide the basic necessities for the truly needy.\\

Jed, $710 is the most one can get on SSID.

Can YOU live on less than $25 a day? I doubt it.

This is hardly income equality. Why do you begrudge it to me and others?

And as I said elsewhere, I didn't vote for Obama--or Bush, for that matter.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/6/13


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cluny, what circles do you go in to know thousands of people are on welfare? I know some but not thousands. I don't think your brain can hold that much information.
---shira4368 on 12/6/13


And what exactly did you do about it, Jed
---Cluny on 12/6/13


I'm doing it now! Also, I did my part to help by voting against the man who is trying to advance the welfare state of this country! There was nothing I could do at the time, since they weren't breaking any laws. The welfare laws are designed to allow abuse of taxpayer money. Welfare is being used by liberal lawmakers and politicians to acheive income equality, rather than provide the basic necessities for the truly needy.
---Jed on 12/6/13


\\I have literally known THOUSANDS of people on welfare and/or disability who were perfectly capable of working and were living WAY better than I could off my 50 hr/week job! \\

And what exactly did you do about it, Jed?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/6/13


Jed: As usual, you twist my words. I was talking about my personal style of sharing the Gospel. I hear sermons about sin all the time at church. My pastors preach books of the Bible, and do not hesitate to preach on the sin issues that come up in those books.

Stop telling me what I do and don't like. You twist people's words, and jump to erroneous conclusions all the time.
---Grandma on 12/6/13


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Cluny, I have shared with you on the other blog that I worked for years as a social worker (case manager) for welfare and disability recipients. And that I actually visited each client in their homes for monthly evaluations. I have literally known THOUSANDS of people on welfare and/or disability who were perfectly capable of working and were living WAY better than I could off my 50 hr/week job! That was the case more than 90% of the time. Less than 10% actually needed the assistance they received. These are not isolated stories that I heard about. I saw with my own eyes. These cases are the norm, not the exception.

I have also told you of my last church that closed down, their tax exempt status was revoked for preaching morality.
---Jed on 12/6/13


\\Well, it seems you don't know much then. Just like you also don't know of any people who abuse the welfare system, right?
---Jed on 12/5/13\\

Jed, tell me how many churches you PERSONALLY KNOW whose tax status is being threatened by the government.

And tell me how many people you PERSONALLY KNOW who abuse welfare.

Stories you've heard on the 'net don't count. "Everybody knows about this" and similar statements don't count, either.

Steveng, you've yet to tell us how your worldly denominational church keeps its non-profit status.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/5/13


Jed:

You asked: Are you saying Churches should not preach against specific sins? Or that it is right that they can lose their non-profit status for doing so?

It isn't preaching that loses churches non-profit status. It's when they go beyond preaching - endorsing political candidates, making political by exhorting their members to vote for or against specific candidates or issues. The implied contract with the state is "you stay out our business, and we'll stay out of yours". If the church enters the political arena, it must pay for the privilege. Even Jesus distinguished church from state with "Render unto Caesar", and when people try to marry the two, it usually turns out to be a marriage made in hell.
---StrongAxe on 12/5/13



I've been doing a word study on the word Gospel. So far, the best example of preaching the gospel is Peter's message at Pentecost. So far, I haven't found evangelism being done while the preacher spoke against specific sins. My opinion, evangelizing while speaking against specific sins is not my style. I prefer to share how God changed my life.

---Grandma on 12/5/13


In other words, you prefer nice fluffy messages about God's grace with no need for repentance, leading people right into hell. Not surprising your church doesn't preach morality, you are a liberal after all.
---Jed on 12/5/13


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Cluny: 'Classically, there has been a perceived difference between evangelization and moral instruction.'

Classically, there was, yes.

I am not sure, however, if that should remain now as well. Evangelization has involves the preaching of salvation, but in this age, almost no-one knows they NEED salvation.

Why? Because most people assume 'whatever I do is OK'

So some moral teaching in evangelization may be necessary, at least for those who have this idea that everything is OK

Just an idea
---Peter on 12/5/13



The only church I know that was investigated by the IRS for what it preached is All Saints in Pasadena, CA, a church liberal even by Episcopal standards.
---Cluny on 12/5/13


Well, it seems you don't know much then. Just like you also don't know of any people who abuse the welfare system, right?
---Jed on 12/5/13


Are you saying Churches should not preach against specific sins? Or that it is right that they can lose their non-profit status for doing so?

---Jed on 12/4/13

No and No.

I was addressing the writer of the question.

Shira: I've been doing a word study on the word Gospel. So far, the best example of preaching the gospel is Peter's message at Pentecost. So far, I haven't found evangelism being done while the preacher spoke against specific sins. My opinion, evangelizing while speaking against specific sins is not my style. I prefer to share how God changed my life.
---Grandma on 12/5/13


\\And if preaching morality should be a disqualifier for non-profit status?\\

The only church I know that was investigated by the IRS for what it preached is All Saints in Pasadena, CA, a church liberal even by Episcopal standards.

The rector preached a sermon AGAINST the Iraq war and won the wrath of the Feds.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/5/13


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\\Are you saying Churches should not preach against specific sins? Or that it is right that they can lose their non-profit status for doing so?
---Jed on 12/4/13\\

Classically, there has been a perceived difference between evangelization and moral instruction.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

---Cluny on 12/5/13


I know that. That wasn't the question. The question was whether Grandma was suggesting that churches (with non-profit status) should allowed to evangelize only and not give moral instruction. And if preaching morality should be a disqualifier for non-profit status?
---Jed on 12/5/13


\\Are you saying Churches should not preach against specific sins? Or that it is right that they can lose their non-profit status for doing so?
---Jed on 12/4/13\\

Classically, there has been a perceived difference between evangelization and moral instruction.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/5/13



Preaching against specific sins is not the Gospel. The Gospel is the Good News of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection as payment for our sins.

---Grandma on 12/3/13


Are you saying Churches should not preach against specific sins? Or that it is right that they can lose their non-profit status for doing so?
---Jed on 12/4/13


grandma, the good news is also warning what is sin. I can't imagine a preacher not preaching on sin. why do you think we witness? is it to make someone feel good? no, we witness to try and keep some out of hell. hell is real and if people aren't saved, they will go there. that is what the good news is all about. even when we are saved, we are still in a battle. preachers should preach the truth without worrying about preaching that some call a hate crime. actually Christians should hate no one but we do hate what some are.
---shira4368 on 12/4/13


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Your question assumes that denominational churches do this, which has yet to be proven.

What does YOUR denominational church do, Steveng? (It is really denominational, you know.)

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/3/13


Then I will leave and find another church but until then I will give my all and follow the Lord's leading at my church.
---Scott1 on 12/4/13


The IRS doesn't dictate. They enforce the tax code, which was passed by Congress.

The Gospel is the message of salvation.

Preaching against specific sins is not the Gospel. The Gospel is the Good News of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection as payment for our sins.
---Grandma on 12/3/13


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