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Pathogenic Organisms

If there was no sickness before the Fall, does that mean that pathogenic organisms appeared only after it? If this is so, would this not mean that God was NOT through with creating things on the 6th day?

Moderator - No it would not mean that. There are 500+ dogs today. God created a dog and it was in the dog's gene pool for micro evolution not macro evolution.

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 ---Cluny on 12/5/13
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Marc, funny....

Scripture tells us those things that happened OT, is a pattern for "our understanding".

When all Israel came out of Egypt under the blood, called the Passover, ALL came out......HOWEVER salvation is not coming out of Egypt, but ENTERING IN( Hebrews 3-4) the promise land.

how many died in the wilderness? How many did not ENTER IN having NO faith. The blood did NOT guarantee salvation for EVERYONE or force everyone INTO the promise land. But according to Markv, HE was forced into salvation, and faith was FORCED on him to enter in. Hebrews 10. You are only saved AFTER entering in, not before.

Well, so much for patterns of truth....Markv' s pattern is not scriptural.
---kathr4453 on 12/27/13


Here is another patters of truth. Joshua chapter 5. Those who entered the promise land WERE not circumcised until AFTER they entered. Showing that spiritual circumcision comes AFTER faith not before. Colossians 2. Markv claims his came before....WRONG.

So, Christan, Markv and Jospeh Smith believe God can do anything He wants believing these verses give THEM licenses to claim anything their little heart desires.

But NOT so. Salvation is OF the Jews religion! laid out by types shadows and patterns for our edification and understanding. So let's stand upon that ROCK , and know all else is sinking sand. Salvation is built upon the PROPHETS and APOSTLES, not John Calvin or Joseph Smith.
---kathr4453 on 12/27/13


Kathr, the atonement is limited to only for those who believe, the others remain condemned (John 3:18). Second, you gave
"2 Thessalonians 2:10
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish, because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."

What does the passage tell us? that when someone receives something, it comes from someone else right? He it says,
"BECAUSE they received not THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED." If they did not receive the love of the truth how could they possibly be saved?
"We love Him because He first loved us" (1 John 4:19). He has to love us first, before we receive the love of the Truth.
---Mark_V. on 12/27/13


"However, that would make God the cause of sin. How?" Marc

You need to learn the Sovereignty of God according to the Scriptures.

"Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass, I have purposed it, I will also do it." Isaiah 46:11

"And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" Daniel 4:35

"But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased." Psalm 115:3
---christan on 12/26/13


Kath,

MarkV is most certainly correct regarding atonement being limited. However, that would make God the cause of sin. How?

Well, John records Jesus saying that the Holy Spirit will convict the world of sin because they don't believe in Jesus (16:9). Now since, according to MarkV, God gives that faith only to a few, then God is responsible for purposely keeping people in sin by maintaining their unbelief. God then justifiably blames these unbelievers for God's upholding their unbelief.

Kath, this sounds both fair and logical. MarkV is right, as always, because he speaks for God...unlike us who don't have this highly privileged access to God.
---Marc on 12/26/13




Trav, your English is reminiscent of that spoken by Yoda!

One day you will stun me and actually answer a question!

You refuse to answer because you know where this will lead. Hebrews 8:10 specifically refers to the "house of Israel" while Romans 2: 14,15 refers to "Gentiles." Now unless you are claiming the Athenian Epicurean and Stoic philosophers, to whom Paul preached, are of "the house of Israel" then they are non-Jews, non-Israelites of no Hebrew tribe but "Gentiles" by definition. If you can show they were Jews/Hebrews/Israelites you have a point. But they are not, therefore you can't therefore you are wrong.

Notice how I write complete sentences. What a novel idea!
---Warwick on 12/26/13


trav: "it is often difficult to discern what you mean because of your truncated, garbled prose."
AMEN TO THAT!!!!!
---jerry6593 on 12/22/13

Then it is as intended. You two cannot discern scripture, so this is no surprise.

Your little holes and pits you dig, then fall in yourself. Scripture judges easily condemning types, who lack scriptural witnesses as evidence.
I post scriptural witnesses for what you two butchershop in scripture for your false doctrines.
When the scriptures hurt your pride or doctrine.....it is a sign to all that can see.

Psa_119:104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.
---Trav on 12/26/13


Trav,
Are you saying "house of Israel" has a specific meaning, yes or no?
---Warwick on 12/22/13

By asking this foolish question you are saying it doesn't.

We will let 4 of 282 specific scriptures answer foolishness.
Psa_98:3 He hath remembered his mercy and his truth toward the house of Israel: .....
Jer_10:1 Hear ye....
Jer_33:14 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah.
Eze_18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed, and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
---Trav on 12/26/13


2 Thessalonians 2:10
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish, because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

THIS REASON ALONE IS WHY PEOPLE ARE LOST...BECAUSE they received not THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED. This in no way says, because God withheld the Love of the truth to keep them from salvation.

Men today will go to hell because he did not receive Jesus Christ who gives that NEW LIFE to those who are baptized into His death and raised up a New Creature. The Blood, and Jesus death and resurrection make salvation for ALL possible.
---kathr4453 on 12/26/13


HEBREWS 2:9 Jesus suffered death, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for EVERYONE"

Markv, this is what you can't wrap your puny brain around. EVERYONE HERE means just that "EVERYONE".

But we have already uncovered your lack of understanding Hebrews 2 as you've previously blogged before.
---kathr4453 on 12/26/13




Markv again you are FREE to believe what you want. However ALL that had to do with everything including the Blood atonement was a pattern God gave Moses after those things in Heaven as clearly stated in Hebrews. NOWHERE IN HEBREWS is there any teaching whatsoever pointing to limited atonement. YOU simply do not understand what atonement means.

The only thing limited was that bulls and goats could not WASH AWAY once and for all sin. Only that in itself (the blood of bulls and goats) was limited in that it only covered and not completely did away with sin ONCE AND FOR ALL.
---kathr4453 on 12/26/13


Kathr, you disagreed on limited atonement, I believe it is limited, there is no types or shadows in my questions to you. If you do not believe the atonement is limited, then what you are saying is that all Jews will be saved? That it is not limited to the elect only, those with faith in God (Christ). There is no types are shadows to answer a simple question. Is it limited or not? Simple answer. If you are a Jew you should know.
If you are not a Jew then the same question is put to you, is the atonement limited to only those who place their faith in Christ only?
You do not need to write three post about the Old Testament to answer a simple question.
---Mark_V. on 12/26/13


Obviously you haven't been following the conversation Markv. The three posts weren't to you in the first place, however, the truth affected your false doctrine as well.

It was answering trav statement that only the tribe of Judah means Jew. I believe I showed scripture to state otherwise. If perhaps YOU got exposed as false doctrine as well, good, it needed to also be stated.

If as trav and others falsely believe that the other 10 lost tribes are other gentile nations ( I know this false teaching well) how did James and Peter's letters make it to America in 35- 65 ad. FedEx international????
---kathr4453 on 12/26/13


Markv, since you have no clue what types and shadows mean, Should I waste my time only to watch you spit on truth???? Here, let's do this...

Adam and Eve represent the church, as Paul shows in Ephesians 5-6. Bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh! a mystery. The church taken out of Christ side, re crucifixion, entering through the veil, that is to say his flesh. But this in no way states every human being ever born is a member of Christ's body.

So stop overplaying your imagination by saying the types and shadows through the Law, means universal salvation. That is just plain ignorance on your part. When you grasp what propitiation and atonement REALLY mean, not YOUR screwy definition, we'll talk.

But that won't happen.
---kathr4453 on 12/25/13


Kathr, so with all the three blogs you posted, you really wanted to tell us:

" There is no such thing as limited atonement in the Jews religion"

What that tells me is that, since you claim to be a Jew, you believe all Jews will be saved is that correct? That salvation is not limited to only those who believe in Jesus Christ? That no matter what they believe they all will be saved even though many have already died in their sins? Which really tells me that you believe their is another way into heaven other then through Christ, is that correct? I am listening, please tell us there is no limitations on the Jews.
---Mark_V. on 12/25/13


John 4:22
Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

Let's reiterate what Jesus said to a Gentile woman.

Also Calvinism is not OF THE JEWS. The day of atonement was for all the sin of ALL the people. The very foundation of the Jews Religion. There is no such thing as limited atonement in the Jews religion.
---kathr4453 on 12/24/13


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24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

REREAD Romans 11. The Gentiles were NEVER the natural branches, but were grafted in wild against nature. Then Paul states those of Israel who were broken off being the natural branches , how much MORE THEIR fullness.

The next verse says "this mystery" you should not be ignorant of, nor arrogant or high minded.

When Paul speaks of JEWS through out scripture, he is talking about ALL Israel, all 12 tribes. Just as James and Peter address ALL 12 tribes in the beginning of their epistles.
---kathr4453 on 12/24/13


For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:

Galatians 1:14
And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.


We see in Galatians Paul speaks of the JEWS religion, which is "The religion" of ALL 12 tribes, not just a couple.
Even Jesus said:
Salvation Is OF the Jews, not OF a couple tribes.
---kathr4453 on 12/24/13


It is possible when after Adam sinned God cursed the ground, not Adam, and it was with this curse that came upon the earth as well that we find disease. Also after the flood the whole of the atmosphere etc changed drastically, seeing even grapes fermented at an accelerated rate as did the aging of man itself. Believe it or not aging is caused by disease.
---kathr4453 on 12/23/13


Trav, you happen to give (Ps. 105:10) but did not continue what the everlasting covenant was talking about in that passage. (v. 10,11)
"And confirmed it to Jacob for a statue, to Israel as an everlasting covenant. Saying, to you I will give the land of Canaan as the allotment of your inheritance, when they were very few, and strangers in it" This passages are not talking about salvation, but a piece of land that was going to be given to them. Yes, they were His chosen people, to inherit a piece of land, according to the context of the passages.
---Mark_V. on 12/23/13


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Trav, you have complained when you think I have not answered a question but do not answer mine. Are you saying "house of Israel" has a specific meaning, yes or no?
---Warwick on 12/22/13


Trav, you claim your beliefs are supported by Scriptural witnesses while rejecting what Scripture says.

For example you reject 6 24hr day creation. You say Scripture interprets Scripture but if you were consistent you would accept 6-day creation because that is what all Scriptural witnesses say. However you are inconsistent only using those Scriptures you think support your non-Orthodox views.

It is clear Paul witnessed to those with no connection to "the house of Israel" i.e. Athenian Epicureans and Stoics. No one in their right mind would say these people were sons of Israel. As you claim Scripture alone is your witness where does Scripture say these people were from "the house of Israel"?
---Warwick on 12/22/13


trav: "it is often difficult to discern what you mean because of your truncated, garbled prose."


AMEN TO THAT!!!!!




---jerry6593 on 12/22/13


Trav,
Trav, you attempt to make Scripture conform to your cultic beliefs, but fail. Again Hebrews 8:10 specifically refers to the "house of Israel,"
---Warwick on 12/20/13


KML. Funniest thing you've ever said. Yeah,a cult of sheep. I guess if "Lost Sheep" are a cult it would fall apart for you.
Scripture smokes pagan logic. Perhaps you should stick to your native language.

Psa_78:5 For he established a testimony in Jacob, and appointed a law in Israel, which he commanded our fathers, that they should make them known to their children:
Psa_105:10 And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:
---Trav on 12/21/13


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Trav, you attempt to make Scripture conform to your cultic beliefs, but fail. Again Hebrews 8:10 specifically refers to the "house of Israel," however Romans 2: 14,15 refers to "Gentiles." Paul, not known to be vague, and writing under God's inspiration, would have used "house of Israel" if he meant this specific group but he didn't.

Your fable falls apart upon the rock of God's word which, for one example, says Paul preached the gospel to Epicurean and Stoic philosophers, who were definitely not of the "house of Israel."
---Warwick on 12/20/13


Trav, I wrote "...Hebrews 8:10 specifically refers to the "house of Israel," and you seem to disagree with this. I say seem as it is often difficult to discern what you mean because of your truncated, garbled prose.

Are you saying "house of Israel" has a specific meaning, yes or no?

If you really tried I am sure you could write proper English.
---Warwick on 12/20/13


Trav, I looked and looked and even wrote it down for you, and again, nowhere is the passage talking about the law written in their hearts. In the first part "For as many as have sinned without the law" this are Gentile who never had the opportunity to know God's moral laws (Ex. 20:1ff) will be judge on their disobedience in relationship to their limited knowledge, see (1:19,20). and "as many as have sinned in the law will be judge by the law" this are Jews and some Gentiles who had access to God's moral law will be accountable for their greater knowledge (Matt. 11:20-23: Heb. 6:4-6: 10:26-31).
---Mark_V. on 12/20/13


Trav, you changed the meaning of (Rom. 2:15) for nowhere does it state the laws written in their hearts.
Then say:
"Heb 8:10 ... covenant that I will make with the house of Israel ....I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: ...." that passage is true, but it has never happened.
---Mark_V.

Look again.
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts,....

"I will put" is a future prophecy by Jeremiah. Effective at Christ's death.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
---Trav on 12/20/13


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Trav, you changed the meaning of (Rom. 2:15) for nowhere does it state the laws written in their hearts.
"For as many as have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and as many sinned in the law will be judge by the law"
and you said:
"Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, ...." You changed the precept.
Then say:
"Heb 8:10 ... covenant that I will make with the house of Israel ....I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: ...." that passage is true, but it has never happened. It is a future event. He said,"covenant ..I will make" for Israel that has not happen.
---Mark_V. on 12/20/13


Trav,
.....Epicurean and Stoic philosophers.
You know, and I know, these last two groups are not members of the lost tribes of Israel.
---Warwick on 12/19/13

For the sought and seeking.
It is the "dispersed" among all that was sought. Divorced Nth House of 10 was scattered....everywhere especially among the Greek nations.
Joh 7:35 Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the "ethnos", and teach the "ethnos"?
Isa 66:19 I will set a sign among them, I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, ....
---Trav on 12/20/13


Trav, ...Hebrews 8:10 specifically refers to the "house of Israel," ....
---Warwick on 12/19/13

It is exactly as scripture proves by witness. Your lack of. Only GOD writes laws on the heart.
Act 19:7 And all the men were about twelve.
Act 26:7 Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come....

Isa 61:9 And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed which the LORD hath blessed.
(exception: wick-ed posers)
---Trav on 12/20/13


Trav, as pointed out earlier Hebrews 8:10 specifically refers to the "house of Israel," however Romans 2: 14,15 refers to "Gentiles." In Romans Paul would have used "House of Israel (very specific term) if this is what he meant. But he didnt, for good reason.

Acts 13:46 records Paul saying "we now turn to the Gentiles," and they did, e.g. visiting Athens preaching to Jews, God-fearing Greeks as well as Epicurean and Stoic philosophers. You know, and I know, these last two groups are not members of the lost tribes of Israel. Or do you say they were? Please answer.
---Warwick on 12/19/13


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(Rom. 2:14,15) is talking about the Gentiles. Not the house of Israel.
---Mark_V. on 12/18/13

It does appear that way....until it is uncovered by witnessing scripture and original language intent is revealed and applied. Naturally, accepted only by those who demand truth by GOD's established witnesses.

Precept upon precept.... here a little, there a little.
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, ....

Heb 8:10 ... covenant that I will make with the house of Israel ....I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: ....

Isa_28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, and there a little:
---Trav on 12/19/13


Warwick, you are correct, in that (Rom. 2:14,15) is talking about the Gentiles. Not the house of Israel.
In (Rom. 2:12)
"For as many as have sinned without the Law will also parish without the Law" This people are Gentiles who did not have the laws.
"and as many as have sinned in the law will be judge by the law" this was Israel, they had the Laws. And since they had the laws "for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified" If they obeyed perfectly the laws given to them, they would be justified.
Then (v.14,15) speak of the Gentiles who did not have the law.
---Mark_V. on 12/18/13


Trav, you are a confused little bunny aren't you! I have said I seek the advice of experts because I lack such expertise and you write "Here ya go again, over-qualifying yourself by experiences with "better" men." Truly bizarre.
---Warwick on 12/17/13

Ha. Wha's up doc? It's called "irony" pro-fessor.
Just post your betters contact info. Without even realizing it, you are posting that your borrowed input is weak, watered with others opinion's and a waste of time. Prophets easily prove this anyway.
My betters are Prophets...never posers for other men.

Mic 2:7 O house of Jacob, is the spirit of the LORD straitened? Are these his doings? do not my words do good to him that walketh uprightly?
---Trav on 12/18/13


Trav, your proof text (Hebrews 8:10) is addressed specifically to the "house of Israel" but Romans 2:14,15 isnt.
---Warwick on 12/17/13

The entire Bible is proof. You see it...but cannot acknowledge. Why I post for sheep.
Paul would not go against Christ's mission, nor will any "man from GOD", Matt 10:6/15:24/Heb8/Jer 31/Eze/.
The only penalty laws that can be broken are from GOD. He placed them. First on stone for Israel. Then on Israels heart. Any law you've recently learned/adopted was from Israel's relationship.
Any laws written on the heart are written by GOD....and he explains with who. To those who listen.

Exo 34:27 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words:......
---Trav on 12/18/13


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Trav, you are a confused little bunny aren't you! I have said I seek the advice of experts because I lack such expertise and you write "Here ya go again, over-qualifying yourself by experiences with "better" men." Truly bizarre.
---Warwick on 12/17/13


Trav, your proof text (Hebrews 8:10) is addressed specifically to the "house of Israel" but Romans 2:14,15 isnt. If Paul had wanted us to understand he was speaking of the house of Israel he would have written this. Therefore I am confident he was speaking of all mankind.

Acts 13:46 confirms this "we now turn to the Gentiles." In Athens (see Acts 17:16-34) Paul witnesses in Synagogues and the Areopagus. If Gentiles refers exclusively to the 10 missing tribes you are saying Athenians were part of these missing tribes! Is this what you claim?
---Warwick on 12/17/13


Michael I do not get your point.

I do not see where I have the concept wrong. You are saying he believes only those people descended from the 2 tribes (Judah and Benjamin) and the 10 lost tribes can be saved. Whether we call them Jews, Israelites, or Hebrews makes little difference as I see it.

What he is saying that the rest of us cannot be saved. Is he not?
---Warwick on 12/17/13


Trav, Michael has made a good point. Were the Romans a lost tribe of Israel. Yes or no?
---Warwick on 12/16/13

First, answer the question I've referenced to you in Romans 2:15, twice. The scripture u r running/hiding from. (As you should)
Is it written in scripture that the laws are found written on Israels heart?

(Here, since you will require some "educated" help)

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: I will be to them a God, they shall be to me a people:

Rom 7:2 ..... but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
---Trav on 12/17/13


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Yes I am experienced, well travelled, and knowledgeable but I turn to my betters to seek advice.
Your writing style does not suggest you are a learned man so I suggest you stop vaunting yourself above acknowledged experts .....
---Warwick on 12/16/13

Here ya go again, over-qualifying yourself by experiences with "better" men.

This does not impress this American...as wisdom. Your newly found language being english is flattering....but, does not purchase you any position of honor at my table.
Prophets are my betters. Men by your own words of admission are yours.
My betters, the Prophets always win....as you are aware now but, arrogantly, foolishly disregard anyway and prophetically.
---Trav on 12/17/13


Most of us here believe the Romans were not of the lost tribes of Israel.
People believe some silly things when not in sound doctrine.
---micha9344 on 12/16/13

But, having broadly stated, you don't provide scriptural/prophetical witnesses for your, supposed sound doctrine.
I easily provide multiple scriptures, prophets for the "sound" and found.
Lord states his cause as do all the prophets. Quote a prophet when establishing your authentic position.
Matt 10:6/15:24.
Rom_11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, ....

All, as in both houses...Heb 8:8.
as it is written by the prophets.
Would you....go against the prophets? Are you? Wide road required for "most".
---Trav on 12/17/13


For those of you wondering "what this is about Trav believes you have to be Jewish to be saved: that those referred to in Scripture as Goy/im (Hebrew) or Gentiles (Greek) are actually Jews."-Warwick on 12/16/13
This is inaccurate, Warwick.
Trav believes the Gentiles/Ethnos to be the lost Northern House of Israel, 10 tribes, as alluded to by the OT nations/Goyim. The Jews, he believes, are only from the 2 Southern tribes of Judah and Benjamin. Levi being mixed into both houses by geographical means.
These 2 Houses are the 2 branches of the OT and the wild and natural olive trees to be grafted back together in the NT.
It helps to understand where someone is coming from.
---micha9344 on 12/17/13


Trav, Michael has made a good point. Were the Romans a lost tribe of Israel. Yes or no?

Please read Acts chapter 17: 16-34 were these Athenians also a lost tribe of Israel?

The point you continue to miss is that I (unlike you) do not consider myself an expert on all things. Yes I am experienced, well travelled, and knowledgeable but I turn to my betters to seek advice. Your writing style does not suggest you are a learned man so I suggest you stop vaunting yourself above acknowledged experts and be humble enough to seek advice.

For those of you wondering what this is about Trav believes you have to be Jewish to be saved: that those referred to in Scripture as Goy/im (Hebrew) or Gentiles (Greek) are actually Jews.
---Warwick on 12/16/13


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Mat 20:19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles (Ethnos) to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.
Mat 27:2 And when they had bound him, they led him away, and delivered him to Pontius Pilate the governor.
Mat 27:26 Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified.
Mat 27:31 And after that they had mocked him, they took the robe off from him, and put his own raiment on him, and led him away to crucify him.
Most of us here believe the Romans were not of the lost tribes of Israel.
People believe some silly things when not in sound doctrine.
---micha9344 on 12/16/13


Trav, from the way you write I perceive your command of English is average at best. I have at least one advantage over you, ......
---Warwick on 12/14/13

Thanks! I'm thankful to GOD for this analysis from one such as your (LIOM)learned self.
Sheep can easily perceive your arrogance is in blind ignorance.... of the greater authority's of the prophets in sheepish "english".
You provide scriptural opportunity's, in that your testimony is of men rather than prophets appointed of GOD.
Amo_3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

For any sheep seeking. A noted lack of multiple scriptural witnesses is witness in itself.
---Trav on 12/16/13


Trav,
It is ignorant of you to place yourself above experts in the Biblical field.
Foolishly you think yourself better than them.
---Warwick on 12/14/13

Your so called "experts" did not willingly go against the prophets. They did so in blindness. Either by GOD or by choice. You go against willingly.....having been shown.
I do not consider myself better than your experts. I consider the scriptural prophets a more knowledgeable and wiser choice to side with. They win....every time.

Again: Rom 2:15, Heb 8:10/Jer 31:33 points to "who" has the laws "written in their hearts".
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you:
---Trav on 12/16/13


Gen 10:5 By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands, ....
Scripture will always discount those who are not doctrinally sound.
---micha9344 on 12/12/13

Thank you, scripture study will discount. Gentile in the O.T. was Hebrew word Goy and has a few choices for usage and meaning.
374 times it means, nations. It can mean heathen, people, etc.
Goyim as nations: Gen 25:23 could be interpreted that there are two Goyim, (heathen), foreigners,in your womb.
Nation is the only by witness choice. In the New Testament it is no different. The same logic using scriptural and prophetical witnesses apply. Using denominational misunderstanding or ignorance by laziness in study only keeps one in their confusion.
---Trav on 12/16/13


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Trav, from the way you write I perceive your command of English is average at best. Therefore your misunderstanding of Scripture comes from these poor linguistic skills. I have at least one advantage over you, that being I know my limitations and consider what trained, acclaimed experts say. It helps me to understand. And I think you need their assistance, possibly more than I do.

I do study God's word, and cover to cover as I have done for decades. So I believe my Biblical study allied to the study of what qualified experts say gives me a good understanding. It is ignorant of you to place yourself above experts in the Biblical field. Foolishly you think yourself better than them.
---Warwick on 12/14/13


Trav, I seek advice of the more knowledgeable-you don't, which says it all.
Consider Rom 2:14 ....
---Warwick on 12/12/13

Well your experts have exhibited NO answers that witness prophetically. Ur experts are nul/void.
The exclusive "experts" of the field are the Prophets.
Who you have never consulted. Blinding you along with your "world doctrine" false experts.

You neglect and reflect this sign of blindness by excluding Rom 2:15, and other scripture that points to "who" has these laws "written in their hearts". Heb8:10/Jer 31:33 and Ezekiel tell descriptively that Israel is the recipient of these laws written. The Northern House of 10 divorced of GOD.
---Trav on 12/14/13


Cluny: Why is it that you have posted so many blog questions trying to overturn the Bible version of Creation, and yet you cry like a little girl whenever I post one advocating the biblical version?




---jerry6593 on 12/13/13


Trav, I understand Scripture but do not consider myself an expert. I seek advice of the more knowledgeable-you don't, which says it all.

You insist 'ethnos' means Jews however Biblical dictionaries say it means "Gentiles, pagans", non-Jews! Consider Romans 2:14 "For when Gentiles (Gk. ethnos-Gentiles, pagans) who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves,..." Are you trying to tell us Jews, (because you insist 'ethnos' means Jews) no matter where they lived did "not have the law"? Surely not!

The reason you do not consult experts in the field is because they do not support your ideas.
---Warwick on 12/12/13


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Gen 10:5 By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands, every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.
Scripture will always discount those who are not doctrinally sound.
---micha9344 on 12/12/13


Trav,
....the NT was written by Jewish people, but not in their own language. That you need the assistance of those more learned.....
---Warwick on 12/9/13

Well, I'll stand but, not with your weak lil witnesses. I'll adhere to witnesses in multiples given by GOD through his prophets/apostles.
You don't understand scripture so you bring an unknown, usually very speculative "call a friend in on".
Gentile is a latin word, generated by the early R.C. church. Replacing the original greek words ethnos, or nations. And most usages in the N.T. refers to the divorced side of the ethnos of Israel. All can understand these two original words. You prefer confusion and are very blessed in that.
---Trav on 12/12/13


---Cluny on 12/8/13: 'So, the pathogens either evolved or devolved'

Cluny, it really depends on what you mean by 'evolved' and 'devolved'

If you say that Adam and Eve 'devolved' when they ate the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, you can say that pathogenic organisms did the same.

But I would not use that word, because in a biological sense there was no change - it was in the soul of Adam and Eve, and it was in the desire of the lion to now kill.

They were changes, I suspect, in the soul and desire, not in biology. There are some species where I can't really understand it all.

I know that my cat is happy to eat plenty of vegetable foods, so maybe before the fall the lion would eat fruit like a bear does?
---Peter on 12/9/13


Trav, one difference between us is that I do not consider myself an expert of all Scripture. I am knowledgeable about the law of the land but seek advice from experts in the field. You would not as you are your own expert.

There is far more to Scripture than we will ever understand because, e.g. most of the NT was written by Jewish people, but not in their own language. Their writings (of course inspired by God) reflect Jewish culture. There are those who have a life-long study of that culture and can give us great insight. That you reject them speaks to your arrogance.

That you need the assistance of those more learned is illustrated in your incorrect belief that "gentile" means Jewish people.
---Warwick on 12/9/13


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Sinful, imperfect man who was not there is their authority. They reinterpret Scripture through mans ever-changing ideas rejecting the truth of anything which contradicts their man-made nonBiblical religion. This is no new thing.
Why therefore should we listen to them?
---Warwick on 12/8/13

In the mirror this describes you.
If one looks back at the endless "experts", jewish fiends, matthew henry below, etc,etc,etc ....your whole testimony is men's interpretation other than scripture.
Scripture you seldom refer too. What a puffed poser.

Luk_1:16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
Luk_1:54 He hath holpen his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy,
---Trav on 12/9/13


Most likely there was no pain or stuggle before the so called fall and salmon made their jorney uptream by conveyor belts and elevators...

What fall? That you have to sweat for your food? Big deal.

2 Thesalonians 3:10 "For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat." A commandment is far removed from a curse.

Matthew 10:10 "Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat."

Was there sorrow before? We see, "I will greatly multiply thy sorrow". If sorrow was 0 there is no multiplication, is there...
---Nana on 12/9/13


Cluny: Where did disease causing germs come from?

It is possible that the germs did EXIST, but their function before the fall was different.

I had pointed out earlier that there are some things (I'd used the case of the tapeworm) where it would have to change quite a lot to change from something pleasant to what it is now.

But God, with the curse placed upon Adam and Eve, could do that by changing, not creating
---Peter on 12/8/13


No cluny, they already existed with the capacity. That does not mean they evolved. That means they started to exercise a different aspect of them that was already there. It's called potential.

So, this blog is really about evolution and your defense of it. Sorry cluny... I am an adult that developed good and bad. And so are you no matter how you deny this. You still have the potential to change your mind about evolution.
---aka on 12/8/13


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The truth of the matter is Jesus and the apostles always quoted from Genesis as sober history-should be good enough for any Christian. It's not good enough for some as God is not their ultimate authority. Sinful, imperfect man who was not there is their authority. They reinterpret Scripture through mans ever-changing ideas rejecting the truth of anything which contradicts their man-made nonBiblical religion. This is no new thing. Denominations which set out on this path to faithlessness long before them have worked their way through Scripture rejecting anything which contradicts their man-made religion. Today these denominations do not even believe Jesus died and rose again. Why therefore should we listen to them?
---Warwick on 12/8/13


\\They were already there. It was man's sin that released their destructive nature.\\

So, the pathogens either evolved or devolved.

Warwick, Matthew Henry is not the last word in Biblical exegesis.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/8/13


Cluny, chria and I gave plausible answers. They were already there. It was man's sin that released their destructive nature. Thorns and thistles to you is literal? If I had that problem I could go to the hardware store and get a machete and weed killer. Seems like God meant more than that.

btw Jesus gave witness to thorns in the parable of the sower the seed and he said directly what they are... cares of the world. It seems like there are a few pathogens now that causes great concern and care.
---aka on 12/8/13


Cluny, Matthew Henry says :There is an impurity, deformity, and infirmity, which has come upon the creature by the fall of man.....Sin has been, and is, the guilty cause of all the suffering that exists in the creation of God."

Are you unaware of the death and suffering God visited upon His world because of sin?

Consider the flood of Noah's time when God killed all land-dwelling animals and people except those on the ark. Do you imagine this God would baulk at changing the world because of Adam's rebellion, bringing death, disease and suffering upon His creation?

Did He baulk at sending His Son to be shamed, tortured and killed upon the cross as payment for sin? Don't you grasp the utter hatred God has for sin?
---Warwick on 12/8/13


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I have wondered about this.

Perhaps those microorganisms were created with another (good) purpose, since in a perfect(ed) world nothing could/can harm. They have some pretty amazing symbiotic relationships, and more microorganisms than not actually perform beneficial roles amongst each other as well as other species including man.
---Chria9396 on 12/7/13


So who created the pathogens, Warwick?

God, Satan, or evolution (devolution, if you prefer)?

Where did disease causing germs come from?

THAT is the question you have not yet answered, nor anyone else.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/7/13


Cluny, something makes me think pathogens already were made. Birth pangs already existed, but they wouldn't have been realized if Adam and Eve followed and waited for the lords instruction and guidance.

Do you think that maybe these pathogens are a subset of the "thorns and thistles" to which God alluded. We call them curses from God, but maybe they should be considered a resultant vector of what God already knew was there.
---aka on 12/7/13


Cluny, we know God's pre-sin creation was perfect so can be certain deadly pathogens, plants, animals and humans did not then exist. So trusting Gods word (as only God is the perfect eye-witness) we see all creation groans in bondage to sin and decay (Romans 8:22), via the curse God placed upon creation because of sin. And that God will restore things Acts 3:21 to perfection.

By faith we see perfection was destroyed, and mankind was booted out of paradise losing even their access to the tree of life-otherwise they would live forever, and that in the cursed world. So thinking hard what has occurred to destroy perfection and introduce death, disease and suffering into creation. The curse of course!
---Warwick on 12/7/13


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\\Now there are deadly pathogens, plants, animals and humans, which obviously, by definition did not exist in His perfect creation. They do now only because of Adam's sin.\\

So--where did these germs come from, Warwick? Were they created by Satan? Did they evolve? Or dod God create them after Adam's fall?

I can't think of a third alternative.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/6/13


Cluny, you scepticism owns you.

God's initial creation was perfect, as Deuteronomy 32:4 proves. Today our world is so far from perfect we cannot even imagine what absolute perfection is. What caused this? Bible-believers know this mess began with Adam's sin, which ushered in a new world where death, disease and suffering rule. Now there are deadly pathogens, plants, animals and humans, which obviously, by definition did not exist in His perfect creation. They do now only because of Adam's sin.

In Genesis 2:2 God says He "finished the work he had been doing" i.e. the creation of the universe and everything therein. This does not say God would never create anything after this.
---Warwick on 12/6/13


A number of what are called "pathogens" are harmless and part of the balance of nature . . . unless you eat them, somehow, by doing what you should not have done, or if you are weakened so they can effect you badly. So, these ones could have been created for good in the balance.

Also, I understand that a number of Jesus Christ's healings included tissue that was not present before the healing. So, I think there could have been creating, in such cases.

Now our Father is busy with creating the new Person of Christ in each of us who are His sheep > Galatians 4:19.
---willie_c: on 12/6/13


Maybe I should have made it clear that I'm talking about bacteria, viruses, and some yeasts and protozoa.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/5/13


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Look real close at the tapeworm and you will see that it's a worm IE micro evolution. The tapeworm will not turn into a whale which is macro evolution.
---Moderator on 12/5/13


But, Moderator, some organisms, would have to have changed a lot to have been harmless before. I doubt that could even vaguely been considered 'micro evolution'

Think, for example, of the tapeworm. The tapeworm group is a class (mammals are a class, as are fish). So saying tapeworms appeared my 'microevolution' is a biologic error.
---Peter on 12/5/13


Ask God Cluny. No one here knows for certain.
---Leon on 12/5/13


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