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What Is Paradise

Jesus told the thief on the cross, "Today you will be with me in paradise". What do you believe he meant by "paradise"?

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 ---David on 12/5/13
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Jerry, you have proven nothing. Jesus is God and He is Spirit. He came in the form of man. At the Cross before He died, He gave up His spirit. If He didn't give up His Spirit to the Father as we are told, then you are calling God's Word a lie. And without shame you call His spirit a spook. You condemn yourself.
You, a worker of the law.
---Mark_V. on 12/29/13


MarkV: "when you make jokes on the spirit of Jesus you go to [That's 'too' markie] far."

No Markie, the joke is on you. I don't believe that Jesus ever existed as a spook, but you do. And this in spite of the numerous scriptures you've been shown to the contrary.




---jerry6593 on 12/28/13


So, our spirit, which contain our memories, is in heaven waiting to be (re)united with our glorified bodies?
micha9344

Not just the righteous only. But the Spirit of all people awaiting the two resurrections.


Luk 14:14
And thou shalt be blessed, for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

Act 24:15
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

We receive our reward at the resurrection of the just.

agape
---Samuelbb7 on 12/27/13


Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
"The Spirit is the Breath of life but more then that it is us who we are all our memories..."-Samuelbb7 on 12/24/13
So, our spirit, which contain our memories, is in heaven waiting to be (re)united with our glorified bodies?
---micha9344 on 12/26/13


Where is our Spirit now?
micha9344


Ecc 12:7

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The Spirit is the Breath of life but more then that it is us who we are all our memories. But it is not an independent part. To be a soul which is what we are body and spirit must be reunited.

This is why in the New Testament the Resurrection of the dead both righteous and wicked is mentioned and talked about so much.

When I die I go to sleep and then to me immediately I wake up and see My LORD and SAVIOUR coming in the clouds to take us home. For me to die is to be with JESUS. We will all get our new bodies First Corinthians 15.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/24/13




"Our Spirit will be united with our New Body and we will become a soul a living being again. Praise the LORD."-Samuelbb7 on 12/23/13
Where is our Spirit now?
---micha9344 on 12/24/13


"...the Trinity were all Spirit."-Samuelbb7 on 12/22/13
Jesus is not Spirit anymore?

---micha9344

Amen and Amen

Our LORD JESUS CHRIST is risen from the grave in his new body. Some day he will come back and raise us from the dead and take us to heaven. First Corinthians 15.

Our Spirit will be united with our New Body and we will become a soul a living being again. Praise the LORD.

JESUS promised we would be resurrected let us keep that in our minds, our hopes and what we teach.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/23/13


Jerry, you have always been a person who likes to criticize others but when you make jokes on the spirit of Jesus you go to far. Do you think you bring blessings to yourself for calling the spirit of Christ a spook? You should not use those kinds of words when you speak about God, they only bring condemnation on you.
(Gen. 2:7) "and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living being." a soul. When a child is born he too becomes a soul, a living being. But we were talking about the spirit. Jesus had a body, soul and a spirit. Jesus was like all humans in His humanity. When He was about to die, He gave up His human spirit to the Father.
---Mark_V. on 12/23/13


"...the Trinity were all Spirit."-Samuelbb7 on 12/22/13
Jesus is not Spirit anymore?
---micha9344 on 12/23/13


What was Jesus before He became flesh and dwelt among us? micha9344

Yes Micha9344 the Trinity were all Spirit. So I did not state myself correctly. No where is our Spirit spoken of as being alive apart from our body.

The Discussion in the New testament is about the resurrection of the Dead not an immortal soul which is never mentioned.


Luk 14:14

And thou shalt be blessed, for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

Luke 20:27

Then came to him certain of the Sadducees, which deny that there is any resurrection, and they asked him,
---Samuelbb7 on 12/22/13




\The Greek word "pneuma" translated "spirit" in Luk 23:46 literally means "breath" or "puff of air".\-jerry6593 on 12/18/13
\What it does not say is that the Spirit thinks or is a living thing. The HOLY SPIRIT is but ours is not.\-Samuelbb7 on 12/20/13
\But you believe that Jesus continued to live as a non-corporeal entity (a SPOOK)\-jerry6593 on 12/18/13
John 4:24 God [is] a Spirit(pnuema, a non-corporeal entity): and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost(pneuma, non corporeal entity)...
God and the Holy Ghost must be spooks as well.
What was Jesus before He became flesh and dwelt among us?
---micha9344 on 12/20/13


It is man's window to God. When Adam fail, he and all descendants of Adam lost the ability to communicate with God. That is the reason they need to be born of the Spirit.
Mark_V.

Sounds right. Good point. What it does not say is that the Spirit thinks or is a living thing. The HOLY SPIRIT is but ours is not.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/20/13


MarkV: "The spirit is the element in man which gives him the ability to think of God."

The Bible says:

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

Even a child can reason that the "breath of life" is a component of the soul and not the soul itself. The soul is the living person - not the breath within him. Your spook concept has its origin in paganism - not the Bible. None of you biblical references support your thesis.





---jerry6593 on 12/20/13


Jerry, the word "spirit" has several meanings depending on context, but of course you don't care to know. "Pneuma" relates to breath, blow, primarily denotes the wind, the spirit which, like the wind (John 3:8) is invisible and powerful. It means the immaterial invisible part of man (Luke 8:55: 23:46: Acts 7:59: 1 Cor. 5:3-6: Heb. 12:23: James 2:26 and many more. The spirit is the element in man which gives him the ability to think of God. It is man's window to God. When Adam fail, he and all descendants of Adam lost the ability to communicate with God. That is the reason they need to be born of the Spirit.
You want to make a joke of the spirit of Christ. The Holy Spirit testifies of Christ, that has not happen to you.
---Mark_V. on 12/19/13


Markie: The Greek word "pneuma" translated "spirit" in Luk 23:46 literally means "breath" or "puff of air". We get our word pneumatic (as in tires) from it. But you believe that Jesus continued to live as a non-corporeal entity (a SPOOK) and went immediately to heaven (with the good thief). This in spite of the FACT that He told Mary He had not been to heaven, and He told Thomas that He was actual, physical flesh and bones. YOU have called Jesus a SPOOK and a LIAR.

Why do you fight so hard against the Word of God? Are your man-made doctrines that comforting to you?




---jerry6593 on 12/18/13


Jerry, with your corrupt mind you make a very stupid comment concerning the spirit of Christ.
You say:
"You insist that His "pneuma" (breath) given up on the cross was Himself in the form of a spook which went immediately to heaven"

Did I say His breath went to heaven? NO. His spirit:
"Father into Your hands I commit My spirit" Having said this, He breathed His last" (Luke 23:46).
Jesus clearly committed His spirit to the Father right before He died. You are calling the spirit of Jesus "a spook" it is proof of your fruits, and a clear indication of your lost condition. . Your denomination has helped in keeping you blind.
---Mark_V. on 12/17/13


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Before His ascension. His Spirit was with the Father, read (Rev. 22:1-3)--Mark v

Mark
What exactly makes you think this event took place before the Lords ascension?
Could you underline the key words and explain why you underlined them?
Make your evidence irrefutable so we can all see.
---David on 12/17/13


Markie: "Jerry, those passages you gave proof nothing?"

The word you are looking for is prove - not proof. You obviously don't believe the Bible or the words of Jesus himself, and continue to call Him a liar. You insist that His "pneuma" (breath) given up on the cross was Himself in the form of a spook which went immediately to heaven. This in spite of the FACT that He told Mary He had not been to heaven, and He told Thomas that He was actual, physical flesh and bones.

Why do you fight so hard against the Word of God? Are your man-made doctrines that comforting to you?




---jerry6593 on 12/17/13


micha, you said:
The Father and the Holy Ghost can be omnipresent, but the Son cannot?" The Son has always been the Son, He is also omnipresent. When He came, in His humanity, He was just like us, yet in His divine nature He was still the Son. When His physical body died, He remained the Son in His divine nature. He never became the Son, He has always been the Son. After His resurrection, He remains the Son but also has a physical gloried body, and is also omnipresent.
We are also told that His Spirit is within us. It is the Spirit of God, His divine nature. We are also told the Holy Spirit indwells believers, it is the same divine nature of Christ and the Father.
---Mark_V. on 12/17/13


The Father and the Holy Ghost can be omnipresent, but the Son cannot?
The Holy Ghost is Spirit, in-dwells men and is living.
We are made in the image of God, but only as finite as we are created.
Jesus, though not created, became finite, as some would believe.
Jesus, though created and finite, was a sufficient sacrifice to appease an infinite God, others would believe.
Jesus, not created, nor able to be destroyed, became the perfect sacrifice, yet others believe.
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
---micha9344 on 12/16/13


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Jerry, those passages you gave proof nothing? We were talking about Jesus physically here, and His Spirit with the Father. Before His ascension. His Spirit was with the Father, read (Rev. 22:1-3)
"And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the "Throne of God and of the Lamb" Jesus is the Lamb. Yet how does anything you say oppose what Jesus said?
"Unto Your hands I commit MY spirit" Second, you also forget that God seats on the Throne but is also Omnipresent, there is no place where He is not. All your talk is nonsense. I give you Scripture and you give nothing but arguments. Maybe because you do not believe He is not only human but also God.
---Mark_V. on 12/16/13


MarkV: You are still calling Jesus a liar. I offer Scripture, while you offer only delusional speculation.


(1) God the Father's throne is in heaven. Psa 11:4

(2) The river of life flows from His throne. Rev 22:1

(3) The Tree of Life spans this very river. Rev 22:2

(4) The tree of life is in PARADISE! Rev 2:7

(5) Thus, from the Bible only, PROOF that PARADISE is in Heaven, and thus PROOF that neither Jesus nor the repentant thief went there on Crucifixion Friday.



---jerry6593 on 12/16/13


It was the place where the saints of the old testament went before the new covenant was set up. Their sin had not be washed away by Jesus yet, it was just covered by the blood of animal sacrifices. Paradise was a place, but not any more it, cause now when you die you go right into the presents of God or strait to hell. God knows either knows you or he doesn't. Cause the ones he don't know don't make it to heaven.
---BRYAN on 12/15/13


Trey and Richard
You both make a good argument with 2 Corinthians, but have either of you found any other scripture which clearly says Jesus went to heaven the day he died on the cross?

If you do I would be interested to see it.
---David on 12/15/13


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"Paradise is the Third Heaven, the eternal abode of God.
2 Cor 12:2 & 4."
---trey on 12/15/13


True Trey. Also see Strong's Concordance, Greek Dictionary of the New Testament, 3857: Paradisos, a park, i.e., (specifically) Eden
(place of future happiness, "paradise"):- paradise.

I personally believe paradise is Abraham's Bosom, the place (Eden: paradise lost) where Abraham & Lazarus were very likely awaiting the resurrection of Jesus in Luke 16:19-31.
---Leon on 12/15/13


Jerry, your denying that His human spirit went back to God. Jesus in His humanity was Body, soul and spirit, like all humans. Just before He died a physical death, He said:
"In to Your hands I commit My spirit" His human spirit went to be with God the Father. Your calling Jesus a liar.
Then say:
"Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto My Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God." When Jesus resurrected He resurrected in His glorified body, in His physical glorified body He had not ascend to His Father. But His human spirit was already with the Father. His ascension was a physical one.
---Mark_V. on 12/15/13


Paradise is the Third Heaven, the eternal abode of God.
2 Cor 12:2 & 4.
---trey on 12/15/13


The Bible talks about more than One heaven - you had a third heaven, - 2 Corinthains 12:2 - The Highest Heaven ' were God would be - Refer - Deuteronomy 10:14 - ( NASB ) and 1 Kings - 8:27 ( NASB )
---RICHARDC on 12/14/13


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MarkV: "So that very day they both were in heaven."

You are calling Jesus a liar! Two days after the cross Jesus said:

Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God.



---jerry6593 on 12/14/13


Mark
According to the Peter, where did Jesus go after he was made alive in the spirit?
(1 Peter 3:18-20)
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.
---David on 12/14/13


David, the reason you do not believe that the spirits of the saints are in heaven, is because you believe when the person dies, the spirit and soul die. But again if you look at (Hebrews 12:22-24) where it speaks of God's heavenly Kingdom.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the Firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the judge of all, "to the spirits of just men made perfect," to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel"
---Mark_V. on 12/14/13


David 2: you said:
"Side note: If you believe Jesus is God the father, how can you believe he is the Son of God?"
Christ in His humanity is called Jesus. In His divine nature He and the Father are One in nature. Jesus in His divine nature is also One with the Holy Spirit. All Three are One Divine God, called the Godhead. The Father gave the Son to die a physical death, but in His divine nature He is God. We have One God in three Persons. I know you don't believe this either, but it was just for your information, which you already know. You do not have to believe that, it has to be revealed to you by God through faith. Many here are not convince by faith. The Bible is full with evidence.
---Mark_V. on 12/14/13


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Matthew 22:42-45 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, [The Son] of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
---micha9344 on 12/13/13


David, you now asked:
"Mark
What does Today, mean to you?
What's your contention in this matter?"

My contention is that today means today, this very day, not tomorrow or the next week.
You then want to know how that applies to Jesus since He died a physical death and how could He be in Heaven at the same time,
"And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said "Father, unto your hands I commit My spirit" (Luke 23:46). That very moment He died physically, His spirit was with the Lord. The same holds true for the thief that believed, his spirit went back to God. So that very day they both were in heaven.
---Mark_V. on 12/13/13


Mark
What does Today, mean to you?
What's your contention in this matter?

If Jesus didn't mean Today, why did he say today?
Are all the translators who translated this verse, wrong?
Did Jesus go to heaven, with the thief, the day he died on the cross?
Or did Jesus merely lie to the man when he said today?
If you believe Jesus went to heaven with the thief, the day he died on the cross, could you give us some clear evidence of this?

Side note: If you believe Jesus is God the father, how can you believe he is the Son of God?
---David on 12/13/13


David, concerning your question, Jesus did say, "today you will be with Me in paradise" Both were going to die a physical death that day, and since Jesus Christ is God in His godly nature, the thief who believed in him by faith, was spiritually going to be with Christ that day in paradise. But you do not believe, because you do not believe Jesus is God. In His human nature He was like any of us. The body that died was the human body. And He resurrected in His glorified body. He can be in heaven next to the Father, and in the hearts of all believers at the very exact time, spiritually.
---Mark_V. on 12/12/13


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"I don't let someone else do my thinking , do you?"-1st_cliff on 12/11/13
Christ.
2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ,
--Oh, but that is Paul writing this truth, so it must not be truth.
Jos 1:8 This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth, but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.
1Ti 4:15 Meditate upon these things, give thyself wholly to them, that thy profiting may appear to all.
--Oops, Paul again...
---micha9344 on 12/12/13


Cliff:

"Leon, If Paul was a legitimate apostle I would embrace him as you do!"

The other Apostles embraced him. Are you smarter than they?


"The OT "is" the bible. Jesus affirmed this!"

Then why don't you believe:

Exo 20:8,11 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
.... For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.



---jerry6593 on 12/12/13


"I don't let someone else do my thinking , do you?"-1st_cliff on 12/11/13
Christ.
2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ,
--Oh, but that is Paul writing this truth, so it must not be truth.
Jos 1:8 This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth, but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.
1Ti 4:15 Meditate upon these things, give thyself wholly to them, that thy profiting may appear to all.
--Oops, Paul again...
---micha9344 on 12/12/13


Agh..... Paradise is something you play a gambling game with in Vegas and Alantic City.
---Elder on 12/11/13


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Micha, The OT "is" the bible. Jesus affirmed this!
The gospels are about the life of Christ.
A committee felt that Paul's 13 letters were inspired ,I don't!
The Syrian bible excludes Revelation,2 Peter,Jude,2-3 John you see it ain't just me!
Protestant bible exclude the Apocrypha !
Being of the majority opinion is not my strong suit!
I don't let someone else do my thinking , do you?
---1st_cliff on 12/11/13


Again I ask- 1stCliff: How many books are in your Bible?
You seem to exclude most of the New Testament.
Do you include Hebrews?
2nd Peter must be out.
Are there any Old Testament writings, other than Genesis, which you do not believe?
Maybe Esther or Job?
How about those silly Israelites that crossed the Red Sea and the Jordan on dry land? hardly believable.
I'd be interested to hear your Bible book count.
---micha9344 on 12/11/13


"Leon, How many followers does Joseph Smith have ?
How many followers does Mary Baker Eddy have?
How many followers does Ellen G White have?
Let's get big Here =
How many followers does Muhammad have?
How many followers does Paul have?? can you not see it?
Jesus has the few that's left! That gate is very narrow!"
---1st_cliff on 12/10/13


This is your typical barrage of garbage. Again, please answer my question! Paul was talking about people like you. Is that why you're so bent out of shape at him?

Also, if you're right then the Apostle Peter & others were wrong about Paul. Right?!
---Leon on 12/11/13


Leon, How many followers does Joseph Smith have ?
How many followers does Mary Baker Eddy have?
How many followers does Ellen G White have?
Let's get big Here =
How many followers does Muhammad have?
How many followers does Paul have?? can you not see it?
Jesus has the few that's left! That gate is very narrow!
---1st_cliff on 12/10/13


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1Cliff, don't you realize you do not believe in most of the New Testament? When you speak against Paul. What you feel against Paul really doesn't matter to any believer. Because we believe in the Word of God by faith. Faith you do not have. you question everything in it. Paul taught the same gospel the Jesus taught him. Anyone can try to look for holes in the Word of God. That is what you try to do, to discredit the Word of God. Then you come on line to get a joy asking the questions you ask. You must still be a Jehovah Witness, you never really left them.
---Mark_V. on 12/11/13


Leon, If Paul was a legitimate apostle I would embrace him as you do!
He has led you and millions into a whole new religion.
Giving the impression that God is leading him (just like dozens of televangelists today)
Christ set us free from the "law" ,along comes Paul with a whole new set of laws and regulations setting up churches...etc!
Phariseeism with a Christian flavor! The way I see it!
---1st_cliff on 12/10/13


"Leon, Tell me about "new Jerusalem," since you believe it's a literal city!"
---1st_cliff on 12/10/13


You've determined whatever is in the Bible that you don't want to believe, it therefore must not be real, eh? Get real Cliff! :)
---Leon on 12/10/13


Cliff: Answer my question first! Paul was talking about people like you. Is that why you're so bent out of shape at him?
---Leon on 12/10/13


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Leon, Tell me about "new Jerusalem," since you believe it's a literal city!
---1st_cliff on 12/10/13


12:4 - How that he was caught up into paradise , and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter,-RICHARDC on 12/9/13

Nice find Richard, and I thanks for sharing that.
You bring up a good point through the passaage,
but what about the word, "Today"?

As I said, paradise does not mean the same thing for everyone. Some would consider what I call paradise boring.

Just a side note, do you think the man Paul knew, who was called up in the third heaven, was John? And Revelation was his third heaven experience?
I don't know, just asking for your thoughts.
---David on 12/10/13


1Cliff, you David ask questions as the world does. How can you understand anything spiritual? It's impossible. Jesus said to Nicodemus:
"We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive our witness. If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?" (John 3:11,12). The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, "For they are foolishness to him, nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Cor. 2:14).
Example, were told Jesus is setting at the right hand of the Father, yet we know He lives in our hearts, how can you make sense of that? Not possible.
---Mark_V. on 12/10/13


Cliff: Then why are you arguing with me? Paradise is in heaven, and yes, revelation is 100% true - it's just highly symbolic.

The blog question is flawed. Jesus did not say "Today you will be with me in Paradise". He said on Good Friday "You will be with me in Paradise." And he will, whenever Jesus returns to resurrect him and take him to heaven.




---jerry6593 on 12/10/13


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Cliff, Cliff, Cliff!!! :) I know you don't believe Paul was a credible Apostle, even though the Holy Spirit led Apostle Peter & others received & validated him as such. Nevertheless, Paul spoke God's truth when he penned 1 Corinthians 2:14 (But the natural [fleshly] man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.).

Paul talking about people like you. Is that why you're so bent out of shape at him? Don't hate the messenger!

Likewise, God's truth overflows in 2 Cor. 5:17 (Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature [born again]: old things are passed away, behold, all things are become new.).
---Leon on 12/9/13


2 Corinthains 12:2 - I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, ( whether in the body , I can not tell , or whether out of the body, I can not tell, God Knoweth, such an one caught up to the third heaven,
12:3 - And I knew such a man ( whether in the body or out of the body, I can not tell God Knoweth:)
12:4 - How that he was caught up into paradise , and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter,
---RICHARDC on 12/9/13


revelation is not TRUE? where did you get that from?
---shira4368 on 12/9/13


Jerry, I don't believe in spooks any more than you do!
#1 Very little of Revelation is "literal" true?
The trees of Revelation are all symbolic!
#2 When Jesus told the thief they would see each other in paradise He did not say "when" (contrary to public opinion) thanks to the miss placed comma!
Paradise has NEVER been a hole in the ground!
---1st_cliff on 12/9/13


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Leon, You're one of the brighter lights on here surely you can tell the difference between literal and figurative!
New Jerusalem ,if literal is 1500 miles cubed. The space station is a mere 300. so this "city" would be 1200 miles above the SS.???
The elevator ride up into the stratosphere could be a tourist attraction huh?
Surely there would not be just stairs???? Don't forget your oxygen mask!!
---1st_cliff on 12/9/13


"...Trees are indigenous to earth ONLY!"
---1st_cliff on 12/8/13


Not so Clifford: REV. 21:2 (I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God...), 10, 24 ~ 22:2 (In the midst of the street of it, & on either side of the river, was there the tree of life...)

"...no way could I see anything through 6' of dirt piled on top of me..."
---1st_cliff on 12/7/13


There you go again, always focusing on your flesh & denying the existence of your spirit man (Rev. 21:10). It's your flesh man that dies & knows (sees) nothing! Your spirit man, whether dead (unregenerated, lost) or alive (regenerated, quickened, saved), is very much aware.
---Leon on 12/8/13


Cliff: "Your calling "general consensus of opinion" Proof??"

What? I never said that! Here's PROOF from the Bible:

(1) God the Father's throne is in heaven. Psa 11:4

(2) The river of life flows from His throne. Rev 22:1

(3) The Tree of Life spans this very river. Rev 22:2

(4) The tree of life is in PARADISE! Rev 2:7

(5) Thus, from the Bible only, PROOF that PARADISE is in Heaven, and thus PROOF that neither Jesus nor the repentant thief went there on Crucifixion Friday.

I thought that you didn't believe that DEATH is LIFE as a spook. Why are you arguing for the other side?



---jerry6593 on 12/9/13


yea, its too hard to dig out of 6' of dirt. Ill will take a digging tool with me.
---shira4368 on 12/8/13


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Jerry :**As a rudimentary knowledge of scripture will attest**
Your calling "general consensus of opinion" Proof??
Jesus would have just said "heaven" here instead of using a Persian word for park ie garden with trees!
Trees are indigenous to earth only!
---1st_cliff on 12/8/13


Leon, Oh I can see the trees OK, but no way could I see anything through 6' of dirt piled on top of me.
I doubt you could see the hand in front of your face!
Maybe something like Mary Semple McPherson who had a working telephone installed in her coffin. (just in case)
---1st_cliff on 12/7/13


Leon: "Jerry: He didn't?! Are you absolutely sure?"

Yup! That's what He said. Otherwise, you are calling Him a liar. The Paradise of God is indeed in heaven and nowhere else, as a rudimentary knowledge of scripture will attest.




---jerry6593 on 12/8/13


"Leon: "I'd rather stay with what's written in the Bible."

Good. Then you'll appreciate the fact that Jesus did NOT go to Paradise on Resurrection [GOOD] Friday, but waited until [RESURRECTION] Sunday, as His own words testify.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God."
---jerry6593 on 12/7/13


Jerry: He didn't?! Are you absolutely sure?

You confuse "paradise" (a park, an Eden, i.e., Abraham's bosom) with "heaven" (the abode of God).
---Leon on 12/7/13


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"...Why do you assume "Abraham's bosom" is heaven? Bible doesn't say that!...The near proximity of hell to heaven (your version) proves it's not literal.IE
How many feet down the driveway can we hold a conversation? 75? 100?(if we shout)
That's the distance between heaven and hell??? Leon!"
---1st_cliff on 12/7/13


Clifford: I neither assume nor did I say "Abraham's bosom" is heaven. You're one of many shameless brainiac who are hellbent on trying to prove the Parable of the Rich Man & Lazarus isn't real! It's truly unfortunate people like you are too smart (intellectual: wise in your own eyes) for your own good! That's why you can't see the forest for the trees. :)
---Leon on 12/7/13


The thief on the cross brought Jesus comfort with his words. And Jesus gave comfort to the thief with his words, "Today you will be with me in paradise".

If the thief believed Jesus, these words would have brought him comfort.
The thief thought he would hang there for days, and for such a man, in this situation, Death would be his paradise.

Jesus knew that the guards would break the thief's legs, so that they would both die on the same day.

Paradise is a place where we leave our worldly troubles behind. That's exactly what death does.

For me, Paradise is a mountain cabin, deep in the woods, next to a trout stream.
---David on 12/7/13


Leon, You're pretty good at step dancing, the way you tippy toe around the subject,
Why do you assume "Abraham's bosom" is heaven ? Bible doesn't say that!
At the last supper the apostles jostled with each other for Christ's "bosom position" (to sit next to him)
Read the foot note in the NIV and note the explanation of "paradise" I did not make this up. Making up scripture is more your style as noted before!
The near proximity of hell to heaven (your version) proves it's not literal.IE
How many feet down the driveway can we hold a conversation? 75? 100?(if we shout)
That's the distance between heaven and hell??? Leon!
---1st_cliff on 12/7/13


Leon: "I'd rather stay with what's written in the Bible."

Good. Then you'll appreciate the fact that Jesus did NOT go to Paradise on Resurrection Friday, but waited until Sunday, as His own words testify.

Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God.



---jerry6593 on 12/7/13


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"The key is 'today'...obviously he meant like 'I'm telling you right now, you're going to be with me in paradise'. Shortened to 'I tell you today',...Did Jesus go to a park like setting that day? No...Let's stay with what is written[comma], OK?"
---1st_cliff on 12/6/13


Clifford: "Obviously", you're very adept at reading self-serving foolishness into Scripture to try & spin what Jesus said. YES, I'd rather stay with what's written in the Bible. "Obviously" you aren't! :) You reject Jesus' parable of Abraham's bosom (where Abe & Lazarus were), "in a park like setting" with a bay & creek (ahhhh ~ WATER) versus the near proximity hell the rich man was in.
---Leon on 12/6/13


Paradise does not mean the same thing for everybody.
For example, If you see a pool of water with a few palm trees around it, do you see paradise?
Probably not, but to a man who is hasn't had a drink of water in a few days..., to him it would be a paradise.

What do you think the thief on a cross, a man who was in a lot of pain, see as paradise, a man who was expecting to hang on that cross for a few days?
---David on 12/6/13


Leon, The key here is "today"
Paradise is hardly a hole in the ground now is it?
So obviously he meant like "I'm telling you right now, you're going to be with me in paradise"
Shortened to "I tell you today", ah,,, the misplaced comma! changes everything.
Did Jesus go to a park like setting that day? No He went in the ground!
How long did He remain there? You know and I know it wasn't 5 minutes !but Friday to sunday!
Let's stay with what is written OK?
---1st_cliff on 12/6/13


"The word 'paradise' in this verse is not Greek but Persian and means park or garden with trees! Alluding...to the 'New Earth' part of God's Kingdom where righteousness will dwell!
Jesus was in fact promising the thief a resurrection.
Promised 'this day' (the day of Christ's death). A guarantee!"
---1st_cliff on 12/5/13



That's quite a subjective stretch of your imagination Cliff. :) You're saying on the day of Jesus' crucifixion, He promised (guaranteed) the also dying thief he'd "one day" be resurrected to live in a New Earth kingdom. What a spin!

Why would Jesus say "TODAY (present tense)" if He actually meant "someday (future tense)"?
---Leon on 12/6/13


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I stand in agreement with 1st Cliff's post.
---joseph on 12/6/13


I asked this question because many people believe the Thief on the cross, is an example of "Grace" being the Unmerited favor of God.

This belief would be viable, if Jesus had gone to heaven the day he died on the cross. But as we all know, Jesus did not go to heaven the day he died on the cross. He went many days after he had died.

So what do you believe Jesus meant by the word "Paradise", when he told the thief, "Today you will be with me, in Paradise"?
---David on 12/6/13


The word "paradise" in this verse is not Greek but Persian and means park or garden with trees!
Alluding , of course. to the "New Earth" part of God's Kingdom where righteousness will dwell!
Jesus was in fact promising the thief a resurrection.
Promised "this day" (the day of Christ's death). A guarantee!
---1st_cliff on 12/5/13


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