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Exist Without God

If we go by the Word of God only, Mat_4:4!
And Isa_45:7, Col_1:16 and Col_1:17 all agree and states!
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Can you state without question, anything that was created, exist or came-about without God?
Peace

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 ---TheSeg on 12/9/13
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TheSeg: //The very fact that God did talk about something above your space should be clear to you!
// There is firmament above the earth and above the clouds(water) which still belong to the earth planet. A. Paul talked about somebody caught up to 3rd heaven in 2 Cor.12:2-5. Is it this 3rd heaven that Gen.1 is talking about?
---Adetunji on 12/30/13


Adetunji, you argue with,
" The Lord said "get behind me Satan(the spirit in the children of disobedience)" because it was Satan that influenced Peter to speak contrary to God's plan at that moment."
Where does it say satan influence Peter? Nowhere. What Peter was doing was he was being a mouthpiece for Satan when he said,
"Far be it from You, Lord, this shall not happen to You"
Since Jesus death was part of God's sovereign plan (Acts 2:23: 4:27,28). It pleased the Lord to bruise Him (Is. 53:10). Because Christ came with the express purpose of dying as an atonement for sin.
When anyone speaks against something God ordains, they are being a mouthpiece for Satan and not for God.
---Mark_V. on 12/30/13


Mark_V: //Satan does not make you lie, ... Jesus told Peter, "Get behind Me Satan" (Matt. 16:23) because he was speaking for the enemy// Please find yourself a Bible believing church where the Lord Jesus is truly the Lord to fellowship. You quote scriptures a lot but your interpretations are usually bent. The Lord said "get behind me Satan(the spirit in the children of disobedience)" because it was Satan that influenced Peter to speak contrary to God's plan at that moment. Just as people speak under influence of the Holy Spirit so do some speak under the influence of Satan. The Lord Jesus said,"..for he is a liar and the father of it" Jn.8:44. Your statement "satan does not make you lie" is satanic.
---Adetunji on 12/29/13


Adetunji, I am still waiting for your explanation of the waters (above the heaven you speak of.)

//TheSeg: Gen.1:1 is not talking about the creation of the Heaven where God dwells. It is about the heaven above the soil here on earth. Gen.2:4 that you also quoted confirms my point, it continues in verse 5 to talk about creation of earthly things not creation of Angels.//

Verse 2 And the Spirit of God (moved) upon the face of the waters.
Descended!

Verse 7 and divided the waters which were (under the firmament) from the waters which were (above the firmament)
Verse 8 God called this firmament heaven.
The very fact that God did talk about something above your space should be clear to you!
Peace
---TheSeg on 12/29/13


Adetunji, Satan is not God. He exist by permission of God as an instrument of God. What Satan does, is his own work, God does not make him do anything, but permits him to do as much as God allows him to do. I do not exonerate him, he is guilty of sin as you and I. His actions are his own actions, our actions are our own. We answer for our own sin, not for what he does. When a person without Christ sins, he is doing the desires of their father the devil. They do not even know they have Satan as their father. Satan does not make you lie, you lie because you want to. When you make comments as you did, you are speaking for him. Jesus told Peter, "Get behind Me Satan" (Matt. 16:23) because he was speaking for the enemy.
---Mark_V. on 12/28/13




Mark_V: Examine your doctrine critically. In John 8:44 that you & Christan loves to quote, the Lord Jesus told us that "the devil is the father of lying/lies". This means he participated in all lies you & I have ever told. But you want to exonerate satan from all disobediences, this is unbiblical. The disobedience of Eve & Adam was engineered by who? God will not spare man for agreeing with satan to disobey Him but to excuse satan and state that "sinning is purposed by 'God'" is an Anti-Christ & satanic doctrine. Satan is the engineer of all man's disobedience to God Ephesians 2:2.
---Adetunji on 12/27/13


Adetunji, when you said:
"Is this a veiled defence of the devil? Is this the real thing behind you & Christan's doctrine "God purposes sin", to declare that Satan has no fault?" you pretended like you were defending God in some way, when it fact you are upset to hear that it is God who saves individuals who are guilty for rebelling against God. And as many here, you jump at the chance to throw the devil in the conversations. But let me tell you that what you said did not come from God. For the devil has no place in a believers life.
If you want to discuss the things of God, leave the devil in your mind, not in your heart, for the mouth speaks what is in your heart.
---Mark_V. on 12/27/13


Adetunji
In Gen_1:1 two things are created (Heaven and the earth!)
God says (only the earth is) without form, and void. Not Heaven, its done.
Now God goes on to talk about a division of light and dark. Deal with it, he did!

Still no firmament in the midst of the waters! There are waters (above and below this firmament!) Gen_1:6 this firmament will be your outer space and your sky, anything above the earth.
Gen_1:8 God called this firmament Heaven or do you think there are waters above God's Heaven?

Remember there are waters above this firmament/haven!
Gen_1:9 Earth! From the water under the firmament are now called heaven!
You don't believe God told you everything, right?
Peace
---TheSeg on 12/26/13


Adetunji, did it make you feel better saying what you said?
" Is this a veiled defence of the devil? Is this the real thing behind you & Christan's doctrine "God purposes sin", to declare that Satan has no fault?" We teach that God saves individuals. We teach that man is responsible for his own sin. Concerning the lost we teach what Jesus taught:
"you are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand on the Truth." He also said,
And if I tell you the truth why do you not believe Me? He who is of God hears God's words, therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God" (John 8:44: 47).
---Mark_V. on 12/26/13


Mark_V://They do not know they are doing the desires of their father the devil. He is not doing anything. He is just washing them do things for him.// Is this a veiled defence of the devil? Is this the real thing behind you & Christan's doctrine "God purposes sin", to declare that Satan has no fault? Are you disguised Satanists discussing with Christians on Christianet ? What is your aim of trying to exonerate Satan that his is the spirit working in the children of disobedience as Apostle Paul clearly stated it in Ephesians 2:2?
---Adetunji on 12/25/13




Adjunji, you gave (Eph. 2:2) to argue that it is Satan who is working in the lives of those who are lost. What Paul was teaching concerning walking to the course of this world, was referring to the world order, humanity's values and standards apart from God. People walk doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind and are by nature children of wrath. They do not know they are doing the desires of their father the devil. He is not doing anything. He is just washing them do things for him. They need to be set free. They need for God to bring them spiritually alive together with Christ. And that is all done by the grace of God while they are still dead in trespasses.
---Mark_V. on 12/25/13


micha9334://Do you believe God had to have an abode before He existed? Or did He exist apart from where He dwells?// The area of your question is not the intent of my previous comment. It was to emphasize that Gen.1 addresses the creation of planet earth and the things it contains not about ALL what exists before the earth's creation.
---Adetunji on 12/25/13


Adejunti, Do you believe God had to have an abode before He existed? Or did He exist apart from where He dwells?
If He exists, then ALL things were created by Him.
---micha9334 on 12/24/13


TheSeg: Gen.1:1 is not talking about the creation of the Heaven where God dwells. It is about the heaven above the soil here on earth. Gen.2:4 that you also quoted confirms my point, it continues in verse 5 to talk about creation of earthly things not creation of Angels.

Christan: You still seem not to believe what Apostle Paul said in Eph.2:2 because it contradicts your belief that God purposes sin. The word of God stands, make-up doctrines must fall.
---Adetunji on 12/23/13


Trav, for your information and just to remind you, you are speaking of an everlasting covenant, I was speaking of an eternal covenant. Without beginning or end. In eternity pass, there was God the Father, the Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. There were no Jews yet born. No one to talk to on earth since there was no earth. There was nothing. How about before the foundation of the world.
And everlasting covenant is one that is given to man lasting forever from the time it is given if the two sides met the conditions of the Covenant, Israel always failed the conditions.
In the eternal covenant, the Father met His, the Son met His and so did the Holy Spirit.
---Mark_V. on 12/23/13


Adetunji, you asked:

And the writer of Hebrews refers to "the blood of an eternal covenant" (Heb. 13:20). A covenant made between the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.
---Mark_V. on 12/19/13

I don't see where he asked. But you should....ask a prophet.

Eternal covenant was with Abraham and his miracle offspring.
Gen_17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
1Ch_16:17 And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant,
---Trav on 12/21/13


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Adetunji, harden not your heart...

"And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" Daniel 4:35

"And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation..." Acts 17:26

"Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." Revelation 4:11
---christan on 12/20/13


Am I making it up? No, everything was foreordained! He also goes on to say (just so you'll know) how much was foreordained, at the same time, listen!

Gen_2:4These are the generations of the (heavens and of the earth) when they were created, (in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,)
Gen_2:5And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

So //at what point of God's existence did HE decide that HE will come in the flesh to save mankind from sin?//
Luk_14:28-35! Peace Bro
---TheSeg on 12/20/13


Gen_1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen_1:2 And the earth was without form, and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
What part of Gen_1:1-2 don't you understand?

God created the (heaven and the earth,) only the earth was without form, and void!
Sounds like you believe one came first, then the other?
Heaven never existed without the earth!
Gen_1:5 And the evening and the morning were the first day!

He goes on to say:
Gen_1:6 Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters!
Gen_1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. (also!)
Gen_2:1 Thus (the heavens) and the earth were finished
Peace
---TheSeg on 12/20/13


Christan: I referred you to Ephesians 2:2 but you read it wrongly as 1 Peter 2:8. Is this deliberate twisting or an error on your part? A.Paul said in Eph.2:2, "..., according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:" From this you can see it is not God that appoints or leads people into disobedience but Satan.
---Adetunji on 12/20/13


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TheSeg:// .do you believe Christ was before the very beginning, not chosen, not made?// Jesus and the Father are one & eternal, the first & the last. Now if you know better, please answer, at what point of God's existence did HE decide that HE will come in the flesh to save mankind from sin? Was it before Lucifer was created or after Lucifer sinned? Note the L.Jesus' parable in Matt.21:33-39, we can infer from it that the coming of the Lord as Lamb is a solution-providing act. Lucifer created the sin problem.
---Adetunji on 12/20/13


"It is the evil one that appoints people into disobedience" Adetunji

It was? What was Solomon then saying when he wrote, "The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil."???

How about Job? "Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?" Did Job credit satan or God for the evil that fell on him? Here's the kicker, "In all this did not Job sin with his lips."

And where does it say in 1 Peter 2:8 that satan was the appointee of the unbelief? Stop making up stories.
---christan on 12/19/13


OK Adetunji let's just go by what you say.
//If one has given his/her life totally to the Lord Jesus Christ and HE is now abiding in one truly (John 14:23), then one will no longer continue to sin like in the past.//

Like in the past, so "If one has given his/her life totally to the Lord Jesus Christ" There is now a different way of sinning, two ways of sinning?
Please! We'll get back to this at a later time.

But right now I feel this foreordained thing is so much more important.
That you understand what foreordained mean for you and me!
First do you believe Christ was before the very beginning, not chosen, not made? If you say no please/explain.
Peace
---TheSeg on 12/19/13


Adetunji, you asked:
"We do not know at what point before the creation of man when Christ was chosen as the Lamb of God, was it before Lucifer sinned or after?"
He has always been the Lamb of God.
"He was foreknown as a sacrifice for sin before the creation of the world," (1 Peter 1:20) not before the creation of man. Before God created anything it was decided (an eternal covenant)that the Son would be sacrifice for the redemption of man. Paul speaks of the eternal purpose which was purposed in Jesus Christ our Lord (Eph. 3:11). And the writer of Hebrews refers to "the blood of an eternal covenant" (Heb. 13:20). A covenant made between the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.
---Mark_V. on 12/19/13


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TheSeg://Do you think you and I, will not continue to sin?// If one has given his/her life totally to the Lord Jesus Christ and HE is now abiding in one truly (John 14:23), then one will no longer continue to sin like in the past. A Christian is a vessel in whom God dwells Eph.2:22.
---Adetunji on 12/19/13


"Mark_V: We do not know at what point before the creation of man when Christ was chosen as the Lamb of God, was it before Lucifer sinned or after?"-Adetunji on 12/18/13
The assumption that Lucifer fell before Creation was made cannot be established.
The opinion that Christ had to be "chosen", as from a group, is also erroneous at best.
Christ is the Son eternal, which also makes him the Lamb eternal. His sacrifice took place "in the fullness of time", but the need for that sacrifice was known to the omniscient One ever since He became omniscient. But since God has always been such, Christ was never chosen to be, He just was (John 8:58)
---micha9344 on 12/18/13


Adetunji
//Is Paul judging anybody in those verses?//
This is from the Holy Word. 1Co_6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? How much more things that pertain to this life?
Why Yes! He is judging everybody in the same way God, has already judged everybody. And quests what, everyone has been found guilty!


//Do you want to partake in Satan sins?//
Are you giving me a choice? Did God give you a choice?
Or do you now believe, I am asking you to sin?
Rom_3:8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

Do you think you and I, will not continue to sin?
Peace
---TheSeg on 12/18/13


TheSeg: Did you read (1) 1Cor.11:1, "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ" (2) & in 1 Tim.5:22 ".. neither be a partaker of other men's sins..." Is Paul judging anybody in those verses? Do you want to partake in Satan sins?
---Adetunji on 12/18/13


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Mark_V & Christan: I sent comment to your previous questions addressed to me but they were not listed.
Mark_V: We do not know at what point before the creation of man when Christ was chosen as the Lamb of God, was it before Lucifer sinned or after?
Christan: It is the evil one that appoints people into disobedience ( not God, as you have been made to believe in error).Apostle Paul confirms this point in Ephesians 2:2. please read it.
---Adetunji on 12/18/13


We are only to obey as those in authority obey God.
Adetunji

Psa_143:2 And enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight (believe him) shall no man living be justified.
Rom_3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

If this is really what you believe! Then why, haven't you done it!
Or I'm I talking to one of the righteous? Who believe they are, have or can?

Right here, you are standing before a very simple man. Telling him he must obey! When you know no one can or will. Rom_3:20, Gal_2:16! Literally shutting the door set before us.

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God!
Yet, it was your Father who gave you these! Why?
Peace
---TheSeg on 12/17/13


The Seg, the passage of Pharaoh tells us many things:
"Rom_9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth."
Nothing could happen to Pharaoh, for him to be at the place where God wanted him to be at some point in time. In that time he killed thousands, yet God kept him alive so that through him God would show His power throughout the earth. With the promotion of free will, I wonder if those people who died in slavery had free will? Maybe only those in the New Testament were created with free will. Because only the smart ones who exercise their free will are saved we are told here.
---Mark_V. on 12/17/13


TheSeg: It's not I that says Lucifer was specially endowed, God revealed that through His prophets Isaiah & Ezekiel.
>>Rom.13:1 we are to submit to higher power that are not acting contrary to the will of God. Rom.6, Ex.23:2, 1Cor.11:1, we are only to obey as those in authority obey God.
---Adetunji on 12/17/13


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Adetunji, I'm glad you see Lucifer was imperfect!
You go on saying Lucifer was specially endowed & empowered. But you didn't say with what?

Are you clamming God gave Lucifer some kind of powers, far beyond those of mortal men like superman? Just joking!
Rom_13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

One could say the same things of Pharaoh!
Rom_9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Understand without question everything is of God!
Peace
---TheSeg on 12/16/13


Adetunji, you now state,
"the Bible states some functions God created Lucifer for (singing/praise, covering Eze.28:13-14) & disobedience of God was not part of God's design for him." If Satan's disobedience was not part of the plan of God, then why was Jesus foreknown as a sacrifice for sin before the foundation of the world? Can you explain that? I would like to hear what you have to say. We are talking before any of the creation had started. Waiting patiently for your answer.
---Mark_V. on 12/16/13


Adetunji: you said "disobedience of God was not part of God's design for him" - now wrap your head around this very teaching by Peter about the disobedience of mankind in this world, "being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed". Appointed by who?

And Paul sings the same song of God Almighty, "For God hath concluded them all in unbelief". But nothing beats the raw words found in Isaiah 46:11,

"Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass, I have purposed it, I will also do it."

What say you?
---christan on 12/16/13


Christan: Contrary to your last opinion, the Bible states some functions God created Lucifer for (singing/praise, covering Eze.28:13-14) & disobedience of God was not part of God's design for him. Lucifer invented disobedience Eze.28:15.

TheSeg: In my previous comment, I did not claim that Lucifer was perfect but the Bible tells us he was specially endowed & empowered Eze.28:13-14.
---Adetunji on 12/16/13


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Adetunji, up to the point you said, "God created Lucifer", you were right.

You obviously have no understanding of what is sin, do you? Let me enlighten you, sin is not a created being like Lucifer or man. Sin is an act of disobedience toward God, that's why it's called sin. But don't take my word for it, go check your dictionary. Better still, the Scripture,

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Romans 3:20

"The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." Proverbs 16:4 - now you know why Lucifer was created?
---christan on 12/14/13


Adetunji let me guess, to you this says Lucifer was created perfect? Right!
Even though it reads "you were perfect in your ways." Not you were created perfect!

If Satan was created perfect God would have wrote:
Gen_1:31 And God saw everything that he had made (Except for Lucifer), and, behold, it was very good. (But Lucifer was perfect!)

Yet Christ said
Joh_8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

So who should we listen too?
Peace
---TheSeg on 12/14/13


TheSeg: God created Lucifer, Lucifer created sin & became Satan. Satan was not created by God - Evangelist Job ALABI, but Lucifer transformed himself into Satan misusing the high level of endowments given him by God Ezekiel 28:14-19.
---Adetunji on 12/14/13


Scott 1, could sin enter the world without the tree of knowledge of good and evil? After all God had the right to make whatever tree He so desired. God could have chosen
1. not create that tree,
2. Not given Adam a command not to eat from it,
3. create man to remain godly,
4. prevent the serpent from entering the garden,
5. Chosen not to put the curse on serpent and mankind. All with a purpose in the plan of God. All events that were predicted in detail by Old T. prophets centuries before they came to pass were absolutely certain in the foreordained plan of God. Yet while foreordained, they were carried out by people who were ignorant of the fact that they were fulfilling the divine decrees (Acts 13:27,29: 3:17).
---Mark_V. on 12/14/13


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Far be it from me to tell you anything, right Nana?

But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ, or, lo, he is there, believe him not: For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Hey Nana, did the Angels sin against God before or after, Adam?
So did sin exist before or after, Adam?
Peace
---TheSeg on 12/13/13


"The four and twenty elders fall down before Him that sat on the throne, and worship Him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."
Revelation 4:10,11

"For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen." Romans 11:36
---christan on 12/13/13


"If sin did not already exist man would have been incapable of sinning. It wouldn't have existed!"
---TheSeg on 12/13/13

Where was the sin you speak of existing? It wasn't mentioned in the creation narrative. The same with the names Adam gave to the animals, they did not exist before : "And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air, and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof."

What is it that you are saying, that God created sin?
---Nana on 12/13/13


Becoming: "the process of coming to be something or of passing into a state."
Nana

process of coming is not here!
Genesis 3:22 "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"

If God didn't not have a clear definition of what sin was/is/will-be!
Man could not have sinned in the eyes of God! God was/is/will-be the only one who can say this is or this isn't sin. If sin did not already exist man would have been incapable of sinning. It wouldn't have existed!

Not just some things, but Joh_1:3 All things!
Everything!
Peace
---TheSeg on 12/13/13


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"All things were made by him, and without him was not anything made that was made."

Genesis 3:22 "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:..."

Becoming: "the process of coming to be something or of passing into a state."

Man did not create or define what is good or evil, however, he came into that knowledge by his capacity to aknowledge and to take or strive- he became, came into that knowledge.
Neither God or man made or create Sin.
---Nana on 12/13/13


Scott1
Luk_24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

// The only thing I am talking about is the creation of sin, that is what I mean by not relevant, not that Christ is not important.//
And so am I! And yes I know you believe Christ is important!

But if sin wasn't foreordained by God, to be in the world!
Why, would God foreordain Christ to die for the sins of the world?
Before there was even a world, I mean really!
Foreordained is not a maybe, but a fact!

Joh_1:3 All things were made by him, and without him was not anything made that was made.
That's all I'm saying.
Peace
---TheSeg on 12/13/13


g, I did not turn anything around I answered your comment to me when you said,
"MarkV,Instead of getting into a debate with you, Just go to God. He answers those very simple questions in the Bible. Seek and ye shall find."
So I said to you to study how to interpret passages and then come back and debate. It was a simple answer. Your dusting your shoes comment, is a good one to give when your doctrine is wrong. Dust you shoes with it, what you said about the gospel is wrong. No child of God is ever lost. You have them going to hell. Wrong doctrines you bring. I am glad you are leaving, that would help so that we don't get anyone confused.
---Mark_V. on 12/13/13


////The fact that Christ was foreordained to die is not relevant to my discussion.//
See but that's just the point, you have to leave Christ out. I never will!//

Great if you want to talk about salvation then I am all for the foreordaination of Christ to die. The only thing I am talking about is the creation of sin, that is what I mean by not relevant, not that Christ is not important. You like your predestination arguments so much that any discussion other than predestination is wrong and/or incomplete. I admit that I have done the same with MarkV in trying to explain resistable grace.
---Scott1 on 12/13/13


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OK Scott1, if you want to call what God called good, perfection! Hey that's really up to you, isn't it? But know this nothing could be made perfect, without Christ. He was foreordained by God!

//The fact that Christ was foreordained to die is not relevant to my discussion.//
See but that's just the point, you have to leave Christ out. I never will!

Even the fact that God put a tree of the knowledge of good and evil does not speak to you. Clearly the tree is knowledge of good and evil. Evil already exist and man has not sinned! And you want to talk about man rebellion? What the angels rebellion is not enough for you to understand it was not perfect?
Peace
---TheSeg on 12/12/13


MarkV,
See what I mean. You took what I said about the questions you asked me to answer and turned them around to say I need to study.
Dusting my feet off :-)

I am sure you know what that means right?
Or do I need to show scripture on that also even though you won't accept it?
---g on 12/12/13


God did it all the time.
Hosea, any parable by Jesus when he said Master or King is a model of God in the image of man.

As far as perfection in Gen 1-2. "It is good" means perfection without sin, Rev CH 22. Gen 1:2,3 is about creation and order not about good vs evil. John 1 is good vs evil in the image of light (Jesus) and darkenss (sin).

The only claim I have made is that sin is created when we have/are/will rebel. That is why I have created a parable to show that sin comes from children/us and does not come from the parent/God. I do not disagree with you in that Christ was foreordained or that God was surprised when we did sin. The fact that Christ was forordained to die is not relevant to my discussion.
---Scott1 on 12/12/13


Mark_V, How are you doing Brother!
I know the way it looks. But looks are deceiving!

I was talking to Scott1. If what Scott1 said was true (then) the answer would be NO and he would be right! But since what Scott1 said (was false) and the answer is definitely yes. He is wrong!
Because Christ was definitely foreordained to die for the sin of the world! While yet, there was no sin in the world. So God is saying there will be sin in the world. But not only will there be sin, but everyone will be a sinner!

Still many will say NO, I am not a sinner. You know the righteous!
But thanks continue to keep me on my toes!
Peace Bro
---TheSeg on 12/12/13


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Scott1 are you talking about the Bible where it says:
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
And the earth was without form, and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

Scott1, is there light in darkness? No right!
Gen_1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
So the answer is Yes!
Joh_1:5 And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehended it not.

Then you ask me "Do you have kids?" why yes!
But my ways and your ways are not, God's ways!
So why ask about our children?
Please stop comparing God to man!

Just one more thing, were in Genesis, did God say everything was perfect?
I missed that!
Peace
---TheSeg on 12/12/13


g, you great answer was:
"MarkV,
Instead of getting into a debate with you, Just go to God. He answers those very simple questions in the Bible. Seek and ye shall find."
.
I believe it is better for you not to debate until you learn how to interpret Scripture. It takes a little work by you, but it will benefit you a whole lot, then you can come on line and debate. If I followed your teachings I would never learn anything.

For no one lost has faith in Christ. "but the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned"
---Mark_V. on 12/12/13


//answer is NO then you would be right!//Seg

i will push back with Gen CH. 1-2 in which God created perfection in all things. For God said that it was good. My point is this if God created perfection why would we rebel from that perfection. However, we are made in the image of God to choose rebellion or submission to God. In this rebellion we created sin. Did God know that we would sin? yes. Did he know that he foreordained himself to die to cleanse that sin? Yes. Did he create and love us anyway? Yes.
Do you have kids? Did you know that they would rebel against you? Did you teach them to rebel against you? Did you know that you would have to correct, make-up for them? God does likewise.
---Scott1 on 12/12/13


The Seg, you must have made a mistake when you said:
"Was Christ foreordained to die (before the foundations of the world) for the sins of the world?
If your answer is NO then you would be right!"

You got that backwards, if they answer "yes" they have it right.
"Him (Christ) being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death" (Acts 2:23). For we are told that Christ was "foreknown indeed (as a sacrifice for sin) before the foundation of the world" (1 Peter 1:20). Paul also speaks of the "eternal purpose" which was purposed in Jesus Christ our Lord. (Eph. 3:11).
---Mark_V. on 12/12/13


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MarkV,
Instead of getting into a debate with you, Just go to God. He answers those very simple questions in the Bible. Seek and ye shall find.

Sin was alive before the Garden.
Paul teaches that one can fall from Grace. Christ teaches that one CAN be made alive by accepting his gift.
It was presented to ALL mankind. You say it doesn't just to hang onto your false teachings.
You teach contrary to the Word of God.

My suggestion is to ask God to show the answers to what you ask because you will refuse the truth if I or anyone else post. In fact many have posted it and you still refuse and hang onto to false teaching.
So, in the end, ask God, he will surely answer you.
---g on 12/12/13


Seg who created satan?
BRYAN
If you had read the whole Bible or Blog!
You would not be asking me, who!

Peter
TheSeg on 12/11/13: 'Sin did not come from God.' (I did not say this, Scott1 did)
Is sin a thing? I would venture to say, in some way, that is NOT obeying God, and so sin is a non-entity:

A non-entity! That's good to know Peter!
So then sin has not reigned unto death Rom_5:21. But it did!
And sin has not reign in your mortal body Rom_6:12. But it does
Sin never had dominion over us Rom_6:14. Dominion!
And without question in some of us, it still does!

Imagine That, it's just a thing.
As White Feather would say.
Peace Bro
---TheSeg on 12/12/13


The word of God only?
I guess Lisa considers "The Reformed Doctrine Of Predestination" by Loraine Boettner D.D. the word of God verbatim!

Isaiah 54:15 "Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake."

If he says "but not by me", that's what it means, it needs no rocket science.
---Nana on 12/12/13


TheSeg on 12/11/13: 'Sin did not come from God.'

True..... BUT

Is sin a thing? I would venture to say, in some way, that is NOT obeying God, and so sin is a non-entity:

Obeying God is obedience (a thing, a fact), while sin is a not obeying God, thus not a fact (a non-entity)

just an idea, maybe over doing it
---Peter on 12/11/13


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Seg who created satan?
---BRYAN on 12/11/13


The Seg, that is the begin beginning of knowledge of the truth. All thing good or evil it all came from God. Keep this in mind and read Mark chapter 4.
BRYAN

BRYAN, I've spoken to you before and gave up!
What you are saying makes no sense to me. Sorry!
If you commenting on the Blog then do so!
Keep this in mind, read the whole Bible first or at least the whole Blog.
Peace
---TheSeg on 12/11/13


The Seg, that is the begin of knowledge of the truth. All thing good or evil it all came from God. Keep this in mind and read Mark chapter 4.
---BRYAN on 12/11/13


Sin did not come from God. For sin is rebellion from God and cannot come from God because then it would go against his nature of being holy and perfect.
Scott1

Was Christ foreordained to die (before the foundations of the world) for the sins of the world?
If your answer is NO then you would be right!

But if Christ was foreordained to die for the sins of the world, before there was sin in the world.
Well then God is saying there will be sin in the world. Isn't he?
And Adam and Eve don't even exist yet!

Without question!
1Pe_1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Say on
Peace
---TheSeg on 12/11/13


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Scott 1, think, even the works of Satan are so controlled and limited that they serve God's purposes? While Satan desires the destruction of the wicked and diligently works to bring it about, yet the destruction proceeds from God. It is, in the first place God who decrees that the wicked shall suffer, and Satan is merely permitted to lay the punishment upon them, even though their motives are infinitely different. God willed the destruction of Jerusalem, Satan also desired the same, yet for different reasons. All things find their unity in the eternal plan of God.
God wills with a good will that which Satan wills with an evil will.
Sometimes God uses the wicked wills and passions of men, rather than the good wills of His own servants.
---Mark_V. on 12/11/13


Can you state without question, anything that was created, exist or came-about without God?

Sin did not come from God. For sin is rebellion from God and cannot come from God because then it would go against his nature of being holy and perfect. But when "desire (by our fleshy nature v14) is conceived it gives birth (creation) to sin, and sin when fully grown bring forth death." (James 1:15)
---Scott1 on 12/11/13



And to me, it is reasonable
willie_c:

just because God knows something is going to happen does not mean that he ordains those things to happen.
Scott1

Again the word of God (The Bible) says he did. Without question!
Col_1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Just because you're having a hard time believing (what The Bible says) God has done! Does not mean you have the right to change or just dismiss it. And say these things came in to existence without God.

Now if you have something, without question!
Say on, Peace
---TheSeg on 12/10/13


Yes, Scott, but if God knows what will happen, this can mean He is in control of exactly what evil will be allowed to do.

"Of course, you could say that God knows exactly how evil will react when God does what He knows He will do . . . like how in a football game a coach can know the future actions of the other team, if he knows how they will react to his team's moves."

Oh - - I didn't think of this (c:
---willie_c: on 12/10/13


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Scott 1, your hostile feelings against me only clouds your thoughts on spiritual matters. Here is what
God said to the transgressors,
"Remember the formers things of old, For I Am God, and there is none like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure, calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass, I have purposed it, I will also do it" (Isaiah 46:8-11). And there is much more concerning Almighty God who is not only Omniscient, but Omnipotent.
---Mark_V. on 12/10/13


//Who was the One who created the angels? Who created Lucifer? Are we not told that Jesus Christ was foreknown as a sacrifice for sin before the foundation of the world? And who put the curse on mankind for Adam's sin?//

just because God knows something is going to happen does not mean that he ordains those things to happen.
---Scott1 on 12/10/13


"Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?" (Romans 9:21)

I understand, Seg, that our Father has made all people, and He decides who serves Him as a "vessel for honor". Humans do not take this on themselves, because of their own sinful wills' character dictating that they don't. And to me, it is reasonable that God who is all good did not bring into existence "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience," (in Ephesians 2:2) but He does have control to organize it in vessels (who are Lucifer and his angels and children) for taking it to the flaming sewer.
---willie_c: on 12/10/13


g, can you tell us who was it that planted the tree of Knowledge of good and evil?
Who was the One who created the angels? Who created Lucifer? Are we not told that Jesus Christ was foreknown as a sacrifice for sin before the foundation of the world? And who put the curse on mankind for Adam's sin?
And where are we ever told that God's gift of salvation, when He saves someone by grace through faith, can be rejected? Can someone who is dead in sins, made alive by God the Spirit, refuse to be alive together with Christ, and go back to been dead and a child of wrath? I believe you need to read the Bible more offend and ask God to give you faith in His Word. Maybe He will and maybe He won't. Your answers will tell the difference.
---Mark_V. on 12/10/13


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(Yes, God created all "things".)
(But creating can use material that already exists in an unformed state.) WHAT?
God used material that already exists in an unformed state.

Do I believe? No, no! Can you state without question!
I take this as a no I cant!


(The same spirit that caused the devil to fall is the same one that caused man to fall.)
So God created a Spirit that caused the devil to fall?
Yea, I take this as a no also!

If I said there are two roads you can walk on!
First thing I would have to do, is make the two roads.
Otherwise there would only be one road, or no roads.

Again, Can you state without question!
Thanks guys
Peace
---TheSeg on 12/9/13


The same spirit that caused the devil to fall is the same one that caused man to fall.

The Word of God is very clear in John chapter 1. God created everything.
Satan chose to disobey God and then he passed it onto man when he deceived Eve in the garden causing man to fall.
It is called sin meaning to disobey.

Those who harp on "no free will" don't understand what caused sin. The desire to go after your own wants instead of what God wants.
God isn't the one that stops man from opening the gift of salvation (Christ), its man that stops himself.
God gave the gift(Christ), people choose everyday not to open the gift(Accept Christ). It doesn't mean that the gift isn't still there because it is. Christ lives!
---g on 12/9/13


Yes, God created all "things". But creating can use material that already exists in an unformed state.

Do you believe that God who is good brought into existence "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience"? (in Ephesians 2:2)

Do you think that His creation that was "very good" would of its own nature bring sin and the spirit of evil into existence?

I'm not sure that God who is love and all-good could have brought what is inferior into existence, but He could have formed inferior "substances" into "things", for the sake of keeping them in order.
---willie_c: on 12/9/13


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