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Messianic Judaism The Church

Is Messianic Judaism the original church founded by Jesus Christ and the disciples?

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 ---Jed on 12/17/13
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I do, however, see a submission of Jesus to the Father, positional and relational.

micha9344

Very good point. JESUS was living as a man on earth. We are to be filled with the HOLY SPIRIT so we can live as JESUS lived in love and life to our Father.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/31/13


"Jesus also said that he could do nothing, but the Father working through Jesus. John 5:19"-Steveng on 12/28/13
Jhn 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
--Maybe I am wrong, but it looks like it says Jesus does what the Father does. I don't see any evidence in this verse of the Father working through Jesus.
I do, however, see a submission of Jesus to the Father, positional and relational.
---micha9344 on 12/30/13


steveng: With respect, it is YOU who does err! None of the scriptures that you quoted said to "worship the Father only." Jesus said to worship the Father, but did not exclude Himself. He also quoted Old Testament scripture (Deuteronmy and Samuel) that said to worship "the Lord thy God" only (as opposed to false gods). Since Jesus is part of the triune Godhead, He is also worthy of worship. Or do you (like Muslims and JW's) not believe that Jesus is God?




---jerry6593 on 12/29/13


"Who are we to worship? Jesus or the Father? ---Steveng on 12/27/13

jerry6593 replied: YES !!!!!!!"

You do err. Jesus said to worship the Father only.

John 4:21,23
Acts 24:14
Luke 4:8

And when we pray we pray to the Father, not to Jesus. The prayer example is to the Father. Jesus also said that he could do nothing, but the Father working through Jesus. John 5:19

Was Jesus a ventriloquist when a voice from heaven said, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."?

Was Jesus praying to himself?
---Steveng on 12/28/13


Who are we to worship? Jesus or the Father?

---Steveng on 12/27/13



YES !!!!!!!





---jerry6593 on 12/28/13




jerry6593, read and re-read slowly Colossians 1. the subject is about the Father, who is the Holy One of Israel.

Who are we to worship? Jesus or the Father?
---Steveng on 12/27/13


Steveng: "If this were true, then God and Jesus would be equal"

Why? That doesn't follow at all. I gave scriptures showing that Jesus was indeed the God of the Old Testament. Don't you believe Scripture? Yes, the Father is above Jesus, but that does not alter the fact that Jesus was the Creator, Lawgiver and the Glory in the Sanctuary of the OT.




---jerry6593 on 12/27/13


1Pe 2:10 Which in time past [were] not a people, ....
Different people
Different commands
Same God
---micha9344 on 12/26/13

Same people, as per prophets....with New Covenant" by the same Non Changing GOD.
1Peter is speaking to the divorced house of Israel. Note preceding verse: 1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people,
Deu_14:2 thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.
Deu_26:18 LORD hath avouched thee this day to be his peculiar people,....
Psa_135:4 For the LORD hath chosen Jacob unto himself, and Israel for his peculiar treasure.
---Trav on 12/26/13


where can I find the prophesy that God's Son will build His church?
---mike on 12/25/13

Since the ekkle & #772,sia is used in the N.Test Covenant to Israel. Look for this gathering of anointed ones in prophecy.
Here are a couple....
Isa 14:1 For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.
Isa 62:12 And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of the LORD: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken.

Eze 37:28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.
---Trav on 12/26/13


Dear Jerry

So you do not believe in the Trinity? Yes JESUS put the Father above himself while He was man here on earth.


Phl 2:6,7
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
---Samuelbb7 on 12/26/13




jerry6593 wrote: The fact is that Jesus IS the God of the Old Testament,"

If this were true, then God and Jesus would be equal, but Jesus exalts his Father saying, "...my Father is greater than I."

John 14:28
John 10:29
---Steveng on 12/26/13


Gen 17:10 This [is] my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee, Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, [Ye must] be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no [such] commandment:
1Pe 2:10 Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
Different people
Different commands
Same God
---micha9344 on 12/26/13


Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


SAME PEOPLE - SAME GOD!




---jerry6593 on 12/25/13


where can I find the prophesy that God's Son will build His church?
---mike on 12/25/13


Gen 9:13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.
Gen 17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
Exo 31:17 It [is] a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
John 13:35 By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
-Different people
-Different commands
-Same God
---micha9344 on 12/24/13


John 1:31 "I myself did not know Him"......and John 1:33 says the same about God's divine Spirit.

John the Baptist knew OF Jesus (jumped/kicked in the womb), but did not know Him AS the crucified Messiah. The Jews were never instructed to acknowledge and include God's Spirit as part of WORSHIP.

WE are told that "if you have not the Spirit, you are no part of me".

Every thing here is clearly specified in the R.S.V. (the RSV is probably the closest popular version to the original Greek).
---faithforfaith on 12/24/13


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The fact is that Jesus IS the God of the Old Testament, and thus the Hebrew and Christian religions are one and the same - only man-made variations separate them. Consider:

Joh 1:3, Joh 5:39, 1Co 10:4
jerry6593

Excellent point I agree. Thank you.

Merry Christmas to all.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/24/13


This is a great question Jed. Many of the responses show that there is great confusion amongst Christians as to the nature of the God of their religion. The fact is that Jesus IS the God of the Old Testament, and thus the Hebrew and Christian religions are one and the same - only man-made variations separate them. Consider:

Joh 1:3 All things were made by him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures, for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
---jerry6593 on 12/24/13


Dear Faithforfaith

I do not remember using the word confused but then I get forgetful and confused sometimes. I think of being confused as making a mistake not being judgmental.

The Church GOD's called out people and Israel is one body. As pointed out earlier the church is grafted in among Israel taking the place of the broken off branches. Romans 11 both our roots is JESUS. But now we are part of the commonwealth of Israel which has had our division done away with. Ephesians 2.

The New Covenant is made with Israel and to partake of the New Covenant we have to be join to Israel. Hebrews 8:8

Agape to all and Merry Christmas.
---Samuelb7 on 12/24/13


I apologize to STEVENG for getting his name wrong in my previous post. SAMUEL was the one with a post that was very judicial (DECIDING that I should receive the penalty of shame, "CONFUSED"). "DISCERN" does not mean the same as JUDGE/judgemental. It is common among the modern church of man for churchgoers to get on each other's case (I find that I must usually ignore that bad habit of the body, but I have recently come to realize that that is the reason so many of the body cannot LEARN (because you're always fighting, arguing, and contending with each other). I am not going to post the verse about the "shaking" (from the R.S.V.).
Hebrews 12:25 "See to it that you do not refuse him who is speaking".
---faithforfaith on 12/23/13


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faithforfaith wrote: "IF you do research of your own.., you will find that I am right about the O.T. not having Jesus OR God's Spirit."

To do a proper research, find a searchable KJV bible and search for the word "spirit" and you'll find that the God's spirit was, indeed, within man. Here are a few verses:

And I have filled him with the spirit of God,.. Exodus 31:3

Numbers 11:25
Numbers 24:2
Numbers 27:18
Judges 13:25
2 Samuel 23:2
Job 32:8, 18
Proverbs 1:23
Isaiah 40:7
Isaiah 63:11
Ezekiel 11:19
Ezekiel 36:27
Ezekiel 37:14
Daniel 4:18
Zechariah 12:10
Matthew 10:20
---Steveng on 12/22/13


Thank you Samuel and Christian for your PEACEFUL and NON-JUDGEMENTAL replies (you caused no shame or embarrassment for giving an answer that you didn't agree with (RARE INDEED! would have done the same....and we must conform to the image of HIS SON, not His BOOK).

IF you do research of your own (instead of asking a pator, priest, etc.), you will find that I am right about the O.T. not having Jesus OR God's Spirit.

---faithforfaith

Thank you.

I partially agree with your point. The HOLY SPIRIT is very restricted in the OT. I just do not know how much and do not like to speculate on that point.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/22/13


It's just ridiculous to claim that the God's Spirit was not on the O.T. prophets like Abraham, Moses, Isaiah, & Ezekiel. How can a prophet prophesy without direction of the Holy Spirit?
---Jed on 12/22/13


IF you do research of your own (instead of asking a pator, priest, etc.), you will find that I am right about the O.T. not having Jesus OR God's Spirit.
---faithforfaith on 12/21/13

But...your post was judgmental.
God's spirit was upon and in those he willed it too.
Gen_41:38 And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit of God is?
Exo_31:3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,
Num_11:29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD'S people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!
---Trav on 12/22/13


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Thank you Samuel and Christian for your PEACEFUL and NON-JUDGEMENTAL replies (you caused no shame or embarrassment for giving an answer that you didn't agree with (RARE INDEED! would have done the same....and we must conform to the image of HIS SON, not His BOOK).

IF you do research of your own (instead of asking a pator, priest, etc.), you will find that I am right about the O.T. not having Jesus OR God's Spirit.
---faithforfaith on 12/21/13


The "church of God" is the one that is REDEEMED by Jesus AND the ETERNAL HOLY SPIRIT (no one can actually be deemed PERFECT, so our heavenly Father "RE"deemed us.....and also gave us His divine Spirit to learn from (TWO things done for us by Jesus)......

...the MESSIAHship by itself is not enough to have life eternal..."it is the Spirit that gives life" (I will no longer make it a habit to specify verse numbers....the only way the Body of Christ will learn and grow is if you stop living by verse numbers and start living by the spirit (Romans 8:16 says that God's Spirit must be able to witness to YOUR SPIRIT in order for you to be a child of God...the SPIRIT "neither THIRST" Revelation 7:16.
---faithforfaith on 12/21/13



Jed is dead to me. Henceforth his posts shall be ignored.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

---Cluny on 12/20/13


Should I be devastated or something? You were already ignoring all my questions about those ridiculous claims you made.
---Jed on 12/21/13


/// "Christians are grafted into Israel." -Samuelbb7 on 12/20/13

--You keep writing this and it keeps being wrong.
You have been fed a lie to promote false doctrines.
---micha9344 on 12/20/13

Without verifying by GOD's own selected prophets we can all be guilty.
Hos 14:1 O Israel, return unto the LORD thy God, for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity.
Hos 14:4 I will heal their backsliding, ...
Hos 14:6 His branches shall spread, and his beauty shall be as the olive tree,...
Hos 14:9 Who is wise, and he shall understand these things? prudent, and he shall know them? ....
Jer 11:16 The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: ... and the branches of it are broken.
---Trav on 12/21/13


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Cluny wrote: "Jed is dead to me. Henceforth his posts shall be ignored."

In that case, God will ignore you.
---Steveng on 12/20/13



Jed is dead to me. Henceforth his posts shall be ignored.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

---Cluny on 12/20/13


Whaaaaaa! Let's go sit in the corner and cry! Boo hoo. I can't handle when someone challenges my false slanderous accusations of others which I can't defend. I'm used to getting away with bullying people, manipulating by quickly changing the subject to someone's spelling and lying about what they said. And I just can't handle it when someone like Jed calls me on my lies and forces me to defend what I said. Whaaaaa! I'm not talking to Jed anymore so I don't have to answer for what I say. I just can't handle these kinds of hard questions. Someone please give me my bottle now!
---Jed on 12/20/13


Jed is dead to me. Henceforth his posts shall be ignored.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/20/13


\\Why then did Jesus himself and the disciples continue to practice Jewish observances after they became Christians?\\

When did Jesus become a Christian, Jed?

Can you give us BCV to support your point?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/20/13


Grow up, Cluny! You're obviously avoiding answering questions now by picking apart a sentence. Typical Cluny behavior. You apparently have the understanding of a severly mentally handicapped person (I was going to say little kid, but even little kids can understand simple questions). I have asked you the question several times in different ways and broken it down for you to a level that even you should be able to understand.
---Jed on 12/20/13


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John 15:5
Who is Jesus talking to here? By your accord, would they not already be there as the natural olive tree?
Rom 11:16-21 "...wert graffed in among them..." Israel are branches,...
We all know who is the Root and the Vine, where we get our life from, and it is not Israel.
micha9344

Yes the Apostles were in but since the New Testament is written to the church it us who are being talked to. See Ephesian 2

Among and with them. read the whole verse. They are one now. Church and Israel.

Since I never said we get our live from Israel I do not understand your last comment. Salvation has always been from GOD to man.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/20/13


\\Why then did Jesus himself and the disciples continue to practice Jewish observances after they became Christians?\\

When did Jesus become a Christian, Jed?

Can you give us BCV to support your point?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/20/13


Cluny, these are your exact word, "According to Jesus, NOBODY (but very few) actually had the Holy Spirit in him until Pentecost, when He was poured out on ALL flesh."

For you to say "though you may not grasp the difference", I beg to differ that this is more in reference to yourself. Because, there's a great difference!

The definition of "NOBODY" is simply - no person, not anybody. By putting "but very few" next to "NOBODY" is a contradiction to what you're really trying to say. Which basically is NOTHING!

All I get from your statement is that it wreaks hypocrisy all over.
---christan on 12/20/13


"Christians are grafted into Israel." -Samuelbb7 on 12/20/13
--You keep writing this and it keeps being wrong.
John 15:5
Who is Jesus talking to here? A-His disciples, men of Israel. By your accord, would they not already be there as the natural olive tree?
Rom 11:16-21 "...wert graffed in among them..." Israel are branches, just as Gentiles are. Gentiles are not graffed in "to" them, they are graffed in "among" them.
We all know who is the Root and the Vine, where we get our life from, and it is not Israel.
You have been fed a lie to promote false doctrines.
---micha9344 on 12/20/13


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This is assuming you are using "Jew" as a religious designation and not an ethnic one.

Why then did Jesus himself and the disciples continue to practice Jewish observances after they became Christians? And if Christian means "follower of Christ", wouldn't a Christian practice the same observances that Jesus himeself practiced?
This is the only answer you're going to get. If you don't like it, that's your problem. Don't ask questions if you don't like the answers you get. ---Cluny on 12/19/13

In other words, you refuse to answer the question that was asked. The answer you gave had nothing to do with the question asked. You answered the question that YOU WANTED to be asked, but wasn't.
---Jed on 12/20/13


Long Ago John Calvin, Martin Luther and John Wesley made a set of rules of what to follow from the Old Testament.

First if it is a Moral law or part of the Ten Commandments keep it.

Second if it is about the rule of Israel Government that is not the job of the Government we live in.

Third if it was ceremonial and had to do with the Temple that is pointing to JESUS.

Many add one more. If it is a rule that is about health and living and eating correctly follow it. That will lead to a longer and healthier life.

Agape and Merry Christmas to all.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/20/13


It becomes quite complicated. To what extent should a believer follow the Torah, Books of Writings, and the Prophets?
---Rod4Him on 12/18/13

Having faced the complication myself. It becomes very uncomplicated if one verifies every doubt by witness of GOD's Prophets. Follow the only teacher Christ.
Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:22 ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
---Trav on 12/20/13


Please go back and re-read what I said, christan.

Note the words "very few", which is not the same thing as "absolutely no one," though you may not grasp the difference.

My point is that very few people in the OT had the Holy Spirit in them, but He is now available to dwell in ALL believers in Christ who have true faith.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/20/13


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CORRECTION:

Cluny, your understanding and believe that the Holy Spirit was only present in Pentecost and not in the OT or even before Pentecost is erroneous to say the least.

Don't you believe that ALL Christians are born of the Spirit by the will of God? And yes, that includes Abel, Noah, Abraham...
---christan on 12/20/13


If Messianic Jews means people of Jewish faith or ancestry have accepted JESUS as the Messiah. Then the original church was Messianic Judaism.

Christians are grafted into Israel.

Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Rom 11:16-21

For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree,
Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/20/13


\\\\ The question is whether Jesus and the disciples were Messianic Jews.\\

Jesus was hardly "messianic", as He is the Messiah Himself.

So try again.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/20/13


Cluny, your understanding and unbelief that the Holy Spirit was only present in Pentecost is erroneous to say the least.

Genesis 41:38,39 - "And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit of God is? And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, Forasmuch as God hath shewed thee all this, there is none so discreet and wise as thou art."

Exodus 31:3 - "And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship."

This is the Word of God, aka Jesus Christ.

There's more in the OT, and you were saying?
---christan on 12/20/13


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\\The very notion that the Spirit of God did not dwell in the OT saints is nothing short of one being declared an unbeliever by the Word, pretending to be a believer.
---christan on 12/19/13\\

According to Jesus, NOBODY (but very few) actually had the Holy Spirit in him until Pentecost, when He was poured out on ALL flesh.

Our Lord Himself said, "He was with you, but shall be IN you."

Who is right? You or Jesus?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/19/13


Why do people like to complicate things?

There are only three types of people: one, God's chosen people the Israelites/Jews, two, the unbelievers, three, the christians. Any other name was created by man.

The "churches" mentioned in the NT are 'locations' of a group of christians not based upon denominations or ideologies.

The commandments were never abolished at the cross.

The meaning of "church" is completely different today than in Jesus' time. One can tell just by the way the word is used.

The Spirit of God was always within man in both the OT and NT. Search for the word "spirit" in a searchable KJV bible.
---Steveng on 12/19/13


\\ The question is whether Jesus and the disciples were Messianic Jews.\\

First off, Jesus was more than a Jew. He is God Incarnate.

Second, the disciples were Jews who became Christians.

This is assuming you are using "Jew" as a religious designation and not an ethnic one.

This is the only answer you're going to get. If you don't like it, that's your problem. Don't ask questions if you don't like the answers you get.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/19/13


Do you not know that it was God who gave the instructions to the Levites on how the sacrifices were to be performed to ward away His wrath? To say they were "imperfect" is to say that God was "imperfect", and that's impossible and erroneous.

We today, by the revelation in the epistles, now know that God was concealing His Son Jesus Christ before the fullness of time when He had to come and be the one to fulfil the law that required the death of a sinless person, the final sacrifice that God would provide for His people.

"And almost all things are by the law purged with blood, and without shedding of blood is no remission." Hebrews 9:22 - for this Christ bled to death at Calvary.
---christan on 12/19/13


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Back when I was a kid, the word then for messianic judaism was judeo-christianity. 2000 years ago, those that practiced this falsehood were called judaizers.

judaism does not include belief in triunity
---aka on 12/19/13


Cluny, you didn't answer the question. You keep repeating that Messianic Judaism is an inauthentic hybrid. That is not the question. The question is whether Jesus and the disciples were Messianic Jews. You said no. I'm asking for an explanation of how you reached that conclusion. Not what you think of Messianic Judaism.
---Jed on 12/19/13


the old IMPERFECT law was the one about SIN (commandments and ordinances).

faithforfaith


Interesting statement not found in the Bible. It was the High Priest and sacrifices that were imperfect. Read Hebrews 7 & 8

First John 2, 3 say the law is still about sin. See Romans 3:31

Notice the New Covenant says GOD will write HIS law in our hearts. The Law of JESUS is the Law of GOD. For the basis of both laws is love of GOD and love or our Neighbor.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/19/13


"The worshipers in O.T. times did not have God's Spirit in their worship" faithforfaith

We were explicitly told by Christ, "God is a Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship him in spirit and in truth." So your statement above is most definitely false.

OT saints like Abel, Noah, Abraham etc most definitely were "born of the Spirit" or they would have worshiped a false god. Their worship of God was very true, just like the saints of the NT and today and the days to come.

The very notion that the Spirit of God did not dwell in the OT saints is nothing short of one being declared an unbeliever by the Word, pretending to be a believer.
---christan on 12/19/13


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The worshipers in O.T. times did not have God's Spirit in their worship (the first time the "H" in Holy Spirit is capitalized is in Matthew 1 when Mary is "found to be with child of the Holy Spirit". In fact, JOHN THE BAPTIST says "yet I myself did not know Him".

MESSIANIC worship is NOT what makes us have a true devotional relationship, it is THE SPIRIT added to MESSIANIC worship....

..."it is the spirit that gives life" (I don't have a bible available, so I can't tell you the verse number, look it up yourself in the RSV).
---faithforfaith on 12/19/13


Go to a bible search website (biblegateway, etc.) and look up words, phrases, terms etc. (called an ELECTRONIC CONCORDANCE).

Look up the phrase "ABOLISHING IN HIS FLESH"...
---faithforfaith on 12/19/13


\\I asked if Jesus and his Disciples were Messianic Jews. You said no, and then went on to call what they practiced an "inauthentic hybrid".\\

Pinocchio, I've already answered this question.

What is called "Messianic Judaism" TODAY is the inauthentic hybrid. That is what I said.

But what the Jewish Christians of 2000 years ago practiced was considered so inauthentic that most of the Jewish believers were expelled from the synagogues by 125 AD.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/19/13


The Bible says the opposite of the law being done away with.

Rom 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

1Jo 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Now as the council in Jerusalem pointed out there are changes. As Paul pointed out in Galations salvation is not through the law but through grace alone. If we try to use the law to save us we have left the true gospel.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/19/13


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Jed, I did not say that most Jews "ACCEPT" the Messiahship of Jesus (or ANY messiahship at all). I was talking about the Jews of Jesus's time, not the ones of today.

MOST Jews OF JESUS'S time "ACCEPTed" Jesus as MESSIAH, but they did not ALSO accept the divine Spirit (John 7:39, PLEASE READ CLEARLY in the R.S.V....if you don't, your lack of understanding will not be my fault)....if you are willing to have understanding, you will be given MORE understanding.

...those who have will be given more.

Some of THE JEWS OF TODAY (HASSIDM Jews) have a Rabbi in Brooklyn, NY as their messiah (they follow the bloodline of David).
---faithforfaith on 12/19/13



\\Are you denying that Jesus and his disciples practiced Jewish observances,\\

But the Gentiles were not required to. See Acts 15.

In fact, the whole book of Galatians said that is Gentiles judaized, Christ would do them no good.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

---Cluny on 12/18/13


I didn't ask about gentiles. I asked if Jesus and his Disciples were Messianic Jews. You said no, and then went on to call what they practiced an "inauthentic hybrid". Now please answer the question I asked you.
---Jed on 12/19/13


\\Are you denying that Jesus and his disciples practiced Jewish observances,\\

But the Gentiles were not required to. See Acts 15.

In fact, the whole book of Galatians said that is Gentiles judaized, Christ would do them no good.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/18/13


Faithorfaith, I think you are a little confused. You said most Jews accept Messiahship only. Actually, most Jews DO NOT accept "Messiahship" of Jesus at all! That is what separates Messianic Jews from other types of Jews.

Also, you said that "scripture clearly says that the law of commandments and ordinances was ABOLISHED in "HIS FLESH" on the cross." I would like to see the scripture that says this. The scripture I know says the law was fulfilled by Jesus, which is the opposite of abolished. If Jesus abolished Jewish observances, then why did he himself practice them and command the disciples to continue?
---Jed on 12/18/13


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To say that "There is only one Messianic Judaism" is like saying there is only one Christianity.
---Rod4Him on 12/18/13


I didn't get to reply yesterday. Jesus did TWO things for us.
1) became the blood sacrifice for SIN (commandment violations and Moses ORDINANCES violations)
2) Jesus also GAVE GOD'S SPIRIT to us when He ascended (was glorified, John 7:39).

Most Jews only accepted number 1 (MESSIAHSHIP ONLY). Some like Simeon, King David, etc. accepted the Messiahship of Jesus, but with LOVE (SPIRIT). In the RSV (likely the closest to the original Greek), scripture clearly says that the law of commandments and ordinances was ABOLISHED in "HIS FLESH" on the cross.

ALSO, James 1:25 and 2:12 clearly tells us that the JESUS LAW is the "PERFECT law", the old IMPERFECT law was the one about SIN (commandments and ordinances).
---faithforfaith on 12/18/13


Cluny, There is only one Messianic Judaism. As I already pointed out, it's the belief in Jesus as the Messiah coupled with the practice of the Jewish observances that Jesus himself observed.

You didn't answer my question. Are you denying that Jesus and his disciples practiced Jewish observances, or that they believed Jesus is the Messiah? Furthermore, since the term "Christian" actually means "follower of Christ", why would you discourage Christians from practicing the same observances that Christ practiced? Wouldn't a true Christian aim to be as much like Christ as possible? You have continued to claim that Messianic Judaism is an "inauthentic hybrid", but you haven't said why.
---Jed on 12/18/13


Today, the HASSIDM Jews (based in Bklyn. NY) believe that A MAN who lives in Bklyn. ( Rabbi) is their Messiah.
---faithforfaith on 12/18/13


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messianic Jews made up the Jerusalem assembly headed by the twelve, that followed Jesus in His earthly ministry, under Law
---michael_e on 12/18/13


My friends who are Jewish and have converted to Christianity refer to themselves as Messianic Jews. I will refer to them as this because it is a good term which clarifies who they are.
---KarenD on 12/18/13


The first christians were Jews so yes they were Messianic Jews.
important clarification:
The Judaizers like in Galatians believed and taught Jesus plus following the law lead to salvation. These people were not Messianic Jews.

Messianic Jews have Jesus and only Jesus for salvation but worship God/Jesus by picking and keeping many Jewish customs like dietary laws, saturday sabbath, etc as part of their heritage.
---Scott1 on 12/18/13


\\Some of our church service are done in Jewish style to accommodate the background of their youth. \\

What exactly do these churches do in "Jewish style," Samuel?

Jed, Judaism is NOT the same faith as Christianity. What is called "Messianic Judaism" today (which I though you were referring to) is an inauthentic hybrid.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/18/13


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The names of very few churches are found in the Bible. Many are descriptions of what that group stands for. If we wish to argue doctrines that is fine.

But putting down a group because you do not like what they call themselves is incorrect.

The Seventh day Adventist church has many Jewish members. Some of our church service are done in Jewish style to accommodate the background of their youth.

Yes Messianic Judaism was the early church how much it represents it now is unsure.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/18/13


The simple answer is, yes. The Jews then were mostly practicing Jews who believed that Jesus was the Messiah.

The Tanakh (Old Testament) did not have any capitals in Hebrew. Capitals were added in translation.

Apostle Paul in Acts seems to continue to follow Judaism. James seems to embrace some aspect of Judaism, and Hebrews appears to be speaking directly to Jews.

Current day Messianic Judaism in the States seems to be primarily some type of (as Cluny says) a hybrid.

However, if a person is a Jew, follows the Tanakh, and becomes a believer, they would be a Messianic Jew. That is a simple answer. It becomes quite complicated. To what extent should a believer follow the Torah, Books of Writings, and the Prophets?
---Rod4Him on 12/18/13


"And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch." Acts 11:26

Do you see anywhere in the Scriptures that even mention "Messianic Judaism".

Don't add on to the Word.
---christan on 12/18/13


Faithforfaith, are you suggesting Jesus and his disciples didn't have the Holy Spirit?
---Jed on 12/17/13


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"MESSIANIC" Judaism is what most Jews of Jesus's time (Judaizer Jews) decided to follow (they accepted the MESSIAHSHIP ONLY of Jesus (they did not accept the "Divine Spirit also"). John 7:39 "for as yet the Spirit had not been given". God's Spirit is so intense it lives (hence the capital "S").In the O.T., the "h" is not capital because God is not yet sharing His Spirit with humanity (capital at the first mention of Jesus BY NAME, Matthew chapter speaks of Jesus's birth). We MUST remember that salvation is ONLY in effect if we don"t have God's Spirit in the "INNER man" (our spirit must be TRAINED by HIS SPIRIT(Romans 8:16, also purifies our conscience, Hebrews 9:14).
---faithforfaith on 12/17/13


A Messianic Jew is one who both practices Jewish observances and believes that Jesus is the Messiah.

So Cluny, are you claiming that Jesus and his disciples weren't Jews? Or that they didn't believe Jesus is the Messiah?
---Jed on 12/17/13


By no means.

So called "Messianic Judaism" is no more than a hybrid (that's the nice word) of 20th century American evangelicalism and post-Christian rabbinism, usually taken from REFORM Judaism, with a heavy dose of Biblical epics such as THE TEN COMMANDMENTS.

Such a mash-up is faithful to neither Christianity nor Judaism.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/17/13


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