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Where Did Israelites Go

Did the Israelites believe they went to heaven when they died?
B C V please!

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 ---1st_cliff on 12/18/13
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Heb 3:12-19 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day...For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end, While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. But with whom was he grieved forty years? [was it] not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
---micha9344 on 5/9/14


Did the Israelites believe they went to heaven when they died? B C V please!....Blog question.

Who could speak for every Israelite? They made every error in the book.
If one seeks an answer thru a prophet.....Samuel is prophet who died and speaks with Saul. Telling Saul he would be joining him!

1Sa 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed,......

1Sa 28:19 Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me:
---Trav on 3/28/14


Strongaxe, good points you made. I remember as a Catholic, I attended church very few times. During Easter I would attend at midnight mass. Then in Christmas and some other dates that I felt important. I confessed my sins about three times a year. I never carried my Bible. I depended on what the Church taught. And let me say they taught very little at mass. They read a verse and told a story about our lives. They spoke on the verse for about 15 min. and that was over. But you are correct. If I was to carry a bible with me, my friends would call me a holy roller and laugh, so I tried never to carry one.
---Mark_V. on 1/12/14


Cluny:

You wrote: Easter (properly, Pascha) is always on a Sunday. Remember?

Yes, but Easter was always considered much more of an obligation than normal Sundays, and missing Easter mass was considered a much greater sin than missing a normal Sunday mass. This is why you have so many "Easter and Christmas" Christians who typically attend church twice a year (and perhaps occasionally more, like during weddings and funerals).
---StrongAxe on 1/8/14


\\When I was growing up, I was taught that the church had certain "Holy Days of Obligation", which included every Sunday, but also others like Easter and Christmas, \\

Easter (properly, Pascha) is always on a Sunday. Remember?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 1/6/14




Cluny:

You asked: And what do you mean by "obligation day"? And what nonsense is justified by it?

When I was growing up, I was taught that the church had certain "Holy Days of Obligation", which included every Sunday, but also others like Easter and Christmas, where Catholics were obliged to attend mass. No doing (except when unable) so was considered a serious sin.
---StrongAxe on 1/3/14


Samuel,... when you answer and you are correct, I many times say the person is correct. If I believe someone is wrong, I answer and give a quote from Scripture. Why should I be against everything you say if many times you are right? It would not be fair. What I see here is that when someone disagrees with someone else, they attack you on all matters and topics even if you are right in some things. Our purpose to for the Truth. We should not take anything personal. If someone is wrong, we should tell them why they are wrong. Mark_V.

Thank you MarkV that is a good attitude and position I can respect. You do disagree with Christian on this point though. He says everything I say is wrong.

Agape to you. :)
---Samuelbb7 on 1/3/14


Trav,
You refuse to answer because you know where this will lead. .... If you can show they were Jews/Hebrews/Israelites you have a point.
Notice how I write complete sentences. What a novel idea!
---Warwick on 12/26/13

Watery weak sentences, lacking scriptural witnesses. Reflect on how scripture infuriates novella's who arrange for their own purposes. You teach Paul opposed to Christ and the Prophets regarding the ethno's/nations. Christ and prophets teach against your Star Wars doctrines.
Mat_10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Matt 15:24.
Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
---Trav on 1/2/14


Samuel, I want you to understand something, when you answer and you are correct, I many times say the person is correct. If I believe someone is wrong, I answer and give a quote from Scripture. It matters not who it is. Why should I be against everything you say if many times you are right? It would not be fair. What I see here is that when someone disagrees with someone else, they attack you on all matters and topics even if you are right in some things. Our purpose to for the Truth. We should not take anything personal. If someone is wrong, we should tell them why they are wrong. I never disagree with Christan because I agree with what he says all the time. We both have the same beliefs.
---Mark_V. on 1/2/14


\\So who's going to read scripture when mega indulgences can be accumulated simply by rote?
A clever ploy!
---1st_cliff on 1/1/14\\

Of course, there was a time when not everyone could read.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 1/1/14




"The indulgences for reading the bible 15 minutes a day were nothing compared to saying the Rosary." 1stCliff

Scripture never teaches indulgences! That's a pure and thoroughbred nonsense from the Vatican to satisfy their love for money. Which now to my surprise of some people of the orthodox faith seems to support and defend. Only to prove that their umbilical is still attached to that pagan practice in the Vatican.

Indulgences is tied to their doctrine of purgatory, which doesn't exist nor is taught in the Bible. So you're theory that the Bible was from the Vatican is pure rubbish. But what the RCs managed was to wedgie 5 books in between Malachi and Matthew, which today is in their Bible and not the rest.
---christan on 1/1/14


Christian, The indulgences for reading the bible 15 minutes a day were nothing compared to saying the Rosary. So who's going to read scripture when mega indulgences can be accumulated simply by rote?
A clever ploy!
---1st_cliff on 1/1/14


\\A committee of Roman Catholic priests designed and put together, as a single book, your bible!\\

Who was on this committee, 1stCliff?

When did it meet?

Where?

Who appointed the committee? If the pope, which one?

Why them and not others?

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 12/31/13


\\Here's why, I was born a cradle Catholic and for 43 years of my Catholic life, we were never taught to read from the Holy Bible but only verses that the Vatican picks out on obligation day to justify their nonsense.\\

Pope Pius X attached indulgences to reading the Bible. Did you know that?

And what do you mean by "obligation day"? And what nonsense is justified by it?

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 12/31/13


1stCliff, your complete ignorance and foolishness of the Holy Bible precedes your knowledge that "A committee of Roman Catholic priests designed and put together, as a single book, your bible!"

Here's why, I was born a cradle Catholic and for 43 years of my Catholic life, we were never taught to read from the Holy Bible but only verses that the Vatican picks out on obligation day to justify their nonsense.

If you were right in your comment, the Holy Bible to the common Catholics would have been their standard reading for the daily life but that's not even close.

From one lie, you just keep on piling more lies to your own faith. Well done there!
---christan on 12/31/13


Dear MarkV you better quit saying you agree with me on some points. Christian and others will start saying mean things about you. :)


{A committee of Roman Catholic priests designed and put together, as a single book, your bible! 1st_cliff}

That is RCC propaganda. Cluny would have a fit on that one. The Canon of the Bible was by scholars from all the church not just the little church in Rome.

Also they were approving more what had been set up by others before them. They were really working hard to stop false books that were being added by others. The History channel even has documentaries on this subject.

To all Happy New Year Agape.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/31/13


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Mark V, You are obviously not aware of just who put these books together to form the "bible".
A committee of Roman Catholic priests designed and put together, as a single book, your bible! Somehow you imagine God appointed this group to give the world His God breathed word! perfect and without error!
That's a big pill to swallow!
---1st_cliff on 12/31/13


This was Paul's message in his last epistle to Timothy which reads,

"I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom, Preach the word, be instant in season, out of season, reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears, And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."
2 Timothy 4:1-4

1stCliff, you would do well to harken unto these words.
---christan on 12/31/13


1Cliff, you say,
"Paul wrote 12 or 13 books that is his words." The books Paul wrote are in the Bible, the books that all others you mentioned are not in the Bible.
Then say: " Anyone can claim that God inspired them like EG White,Joseph Smith,Mary Baker Eddy etc. Why would you believe Paul and not the others?" Because all those people you mentioned are not in the Bible. If they were I would believe them. But they are not.
Samuel is correct, many write books not in the Bible with the truth mixed with lies not mentioned anywhere in Scripture. Those books are not inspired, if they were they would be in the Bible. The Bible is complete and finished. There is no additional new books.
---Mark_V. on 12/31/13


//We've been dealing with them for 1300 years--centuries before there was a USA.//
Didn't realize you were that old.
---michael_e on 12/30/13


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"The words of God are definitely contained in the bible (no controversy here) but not "everything written there is "God's word"..." 1stCliff

What truly amazes me is not you but the wonderful work of God in you to confess and deny His Word out-rightly when we were explicitly told in 2 Timothy 3:16,17,

"ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."

Honestly, I fear for your soul and that's because we are told, "...being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed" 1 Peter 2:8
---christan on 12/30/13


The words of Paul were accepted by the other apostles as the word of GOD. Which is why they made them part of the canon of scripture.

The words of Paul and the words of all scripture are in agreement.

But people take some words of Paul and throw out part of scripture to set up their own doctrine.

What did Paul teach that is false exactly?

I am a Seventh day Adventist so yes I do trust the Ellen G. White wrote words that agree with scripture.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/30/13


Mark V, The words of God are definitely contained in the bible (no controversy here) but not "everything written there is "God's word" IE Paul wrote 12 or 13 books that is his words. Anyone can claim that God inspired them like EG White,Joseph Smith,Mary Baker Eddy etc. Why would you believe Paul and not the others?
Is it because you think "everybody does" so it must be so?
More than a billion people believe the Quoran and you call them blind and stupid!
Why do you think what he wrote is scripture?
---1st_cliff on 12/30/13


1Cliff, you now say:
"Well if I was to tell you that if you blow yourself up (for the cause) you will be rewarded with 72 virgins in the next life ,would you think it truth or superstition? To the Muslim it's truth!" First, I am not a Muslim. Second, I am a Christian. Third, only someone blind and stupid would believe that. Those who are spiritually blind believe all sorts of things.
Listen, you do not have to believe in the word of God. I am ok with that. I cannot change you. Only God can change a heart. I am not about to try. What I do not understand is why you are here. What purpose would a man who doesn't believe in the word of God be doing here trying to discuss bible passages.
---Mark_V. on 12/30/13


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Cluny, Picky picky!
---1st_cliff on 12/30/13


\\No mark I'm not smart just "causcous as a serpent"\\

I didn't know that serpents ate couscous--middle Eastern pasta.

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 12/29/13


Mark V, I think you're beginning to see the light!
You say "what's superstition to you is truth to others"
Well if I was to tell you that if you blow yourself up (for the cause) you will be rewarded with 72 virgins in the next life ,would you think it truth or superstition? To the Muslim it's truth!
They are human beings like you and I ,the difference is their faith/religion!
Being sincere is fine but you can be sincerely wrong!
No mark I'm not smart just "causcous as a serpent", as Jesus said!
---1st_cliff on 12/29/13


"The churches being bombed and Christians being killed are mainly in Iraq,Egypt and the middle east ,these are not Americans!" 1stCliff

Superior knowledge I do not boast I have but those are from you, your very own words. As for "churches" being bombed, have you not read Paul's testimony in Acts 17:24,25 -

"God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, DWELLETH NOT IN TEMPLES MADE WITH HANDS, Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things,"

As clear as daylight you read not what the Word declares.
---christan on 12/29/13


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shira, I don't need YOU to tell me how mahometans treat Orthodox and other Eastern Christians, OK?

We've been dealing with them for 1300 years--centuries before there was a USA.

And I really doubt that members of your worldly denominational Baptist church would be able to stand up to them.

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 12/29/13


cluny, muslims make it clear they kill anyone and everyone who is not a muslim. if they can't make you a muslim, you are dead. you know their favorite way to kill their opponents don't you?
---shira4368 on 12/29/13


\\The Muslim does not kill a Christian because of Jesus, they kill because they hate what the American system stands for.\\

How does this apply to mahometans killing Christians in the Iraq, Syria, et al, who have been Christians since the times of the Apostles?

Trust me, there are ancient Christian churches there that were around centuries before there WAS an America.

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 12/29/13


1cliff, with your answers you confirmed what I believed about you.
You say:
'To say "every" word is God breathed is little more than superstition." What is superstition to you, is Truth to others. Then you say:
"You call it faith I call it credulity. It's up to you what you believe, since it's my life and my decision I just like to make sure!" It is not up to you concerning faith in God and His Word, it is up to God. Millions of people who believe they are so smart, have gone to hell already. Being smart does not help you receive faith in God, if that was the case, every smart person would be heading to heaven.
You should believe what Christan said concerning Muslims.
---Mark_V. on 12/29/13


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Christian, So much for your superior knowledge, The churches being bombed and Christians being killed are mainly in Iraq,Egypt and the middle east ,these are not Americans!
A "Jihad"is a holy (spiritual) war! An attempt to wipe out Christianity!
**all versions says the same thing** Oh really? Then why are there versions? dah!
---1st_cliff on 12/29/13


1stCliff, you claim to be a Christian and yet you're in slumber and worse still, in deep unbelief.

Your comparison of an appliance manual to the Holy Bible exposes your unconverted heart, though how much you want us to believe you're a Christian, your very own words says otherwise. As Christ puts it, "For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." Matthew 12:37

This is how Christ declared what is written in the Holy Bible truly is, "It is the spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing: THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK UNTO YOU, THEY ARE SPIRIT, AND THEY ARE LIFE." John 6:63 - guess what's missing in you?
---christan on 12/28/13


"If Christians are being killed by Muslims is this not a "spiritual" war?" 1stCliff

Your understanding of Ephesians 6 is erroneous. Paul explicitly wrote, "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

Muslims hates the American forceful way of democracy and their support of Israel. The Muslim does not kill a Christian because of Jesus, they kill because they hate what the American system stands for.

There are Christians all over the world, why do you think only the Americans have a target on their backs? Because of Christ?
---christan on 12/28/13


"Which version of the holy bible is "all truth"? meaning it's never been changed! I'll wait!" !stCliff

Wait no more, it's the part that says,

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself, but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." John 16:13 - and all versions says the same thing.

Question is, are you guided by the spirit man or by the Spirit of God? Here's a clue, "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." John 1:13
---chrustan on 12/28/13


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Mark, When you buy a new appliance it comes with an owners manual , you seem to think the bible is man's manual from God on how to live!
The bible is a collection of 66 separate books of which some of the writers are actually unknown,(could have been written by Nick the barber,who knows?)
To say "every" word is God breathed is little more than superstition.
You call it faith I call it credulity. It's up to you what you believe, since it's my life and my decision I just like to make sure!
Over a billion people believe the Quaran don't you think they shoud question it?
---1st_cliff on 12/28/13


Christian, If Christians are being killed by Muslims is this not a "spiritual" war?
Why else are they being targeted? Do they look different? (putting your foot in your mouth is common practice, huh!)
Which version of the holy bible is "all truth"? meaning it's never been changed!
I'll wait!
---1st_cliff on 12/28/13


1Cliff, you say,
"Satan is on the loose! The only thing God wrote was the 10 commandments,"
How do you know He wrote the Ten Commandments if you question Scripture? What you are doing is trying to be the barometer of what Truth is. You have to make up your mind, you either believe it is the Word of God or you don't.
All Scripture is God-breath. No Old Testament prophet, nor Jesus Christ, nor any New Testament writer gives any support for the idea that portions of Scripture having to do with space-time events contain error. But (prophesy never had it origin in the will of man, but man spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit' (2 Peter 1:21).
---Mark_V. on 12/28/13


1stCliff, you wrote: "We are in a spiritual war, what war has never had enemy infiltrators?" And in the following words, you continued "Don't say God would not allow it, hundreds of Christians are right now being killed by Muslim extremists (even bombing churches) and God is doing nothing!"

Aren't we fighting a spiritual war? And you say Christians are being killed by Muslims? How's that even spiritual? You can't even tell what's spiritual and physical!

"Could you spot an untruth in scripture? (planted by the enemy)" The Holy Bible is from God - ALL TRUTH, period. The only untrue things comes from you!
---christan on 12/27/13


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Luk 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
So, the Galileans and the 18 do not have eternal life?
---micha9344 on 12/27/13


"Why do you place the comma after "thee"? There was no punctuation 'till the 14th century." 1stCliff

First and foremost, everything in bold is DIRECT from the KJV Bible. If the comma is there, I assure you it's not I but the author of the KJV Bible, and that's God the Spirit.

Your UNBELIEF of the Scripture has nothing to do with punctuation here or there whatsoever. Christ said, "It is the spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." John 6:63

Simply put, ZERO Spirit.
---christan on 12/27/13


Samuelbb7, none of those verses you quoted support your understanding of "The soul dies the sprit returns to GOD the dead are asleep. See Conditionalism."

Based on your understanding, what you're implying is simply this: that what Christ taught in Luke 16:19-31 is all fiction and untrue, right? Since He specifically brought up the name of Abraham speaking to the rich man.

According to your understanding, Abraham shouldn't be even communicating since he's already dead some two thousand years earlier and "asleep".

Bottomline, you're calling Christ a liar? Let's hear from you, "But let your communication be, Yea, yea, Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil."
---christan on 12/27/13


Mark V, Why do you think we should not question what someone wrote? Satan is on the loose! The only thing God wrote was the 10 commandments, some He directly dictated to some of the saints! Some is history!

We are in a spiritual war, what war has never had enemy infiltrators? Could you spot an untruth in scripture? (planted by the enemy)
Don't say God would not allow it, hundreds of Christians are right now being killed by Muslim extremists (even bombing churches) and God is doing nothing!
Camouflage is as old as history!
---1st_cliff on 12/27/13


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Where do you think Abraham and the rest of the saints who have passed on, are right now? christen

Deu 31:16 2Sa 7:12 1Ki 1:21
Act 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
1Cr 15:6 ... but some are fallen asleep.
1Cr 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
Psa 88:10
Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
Eze 18:4 ... so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze 18:20


The soul dies the sprit returns to GOD the dead are asleep. See Conditionalism.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/27/13


Samuelbb7, you keep babbling Luke 16:19-31 to be a parable and yet you have a hard time explaining what the parable in your eyes are saying. Christian

Since I have posted my understanding of this parable at least four times and have answered questions on it more often. I do not understand your question.

Also this is not my understanding alone. Many people including scholars from different denominations hold this view. Look up Doctor Fudge and Conditionalism.

Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Perish means cease to exist die. On what basis do you say this is a lie by JESUS?
---Samuelbb7 on 12/27/13


1Cliff, what you do is bring doubt to the word of God. Maybe because in your wisdom, it just doesn't seem right. Is that not enough? There is nothing wrong with the Word of God. This is the only Word we have that is from God. It only has one meaning. It might have many applications but only one meaning. There is every thing wrong in how one interprets the passages. But if you do not have faith in His Word, what is the use of you even reading it?
What I see is you are playing games with the Word of God and not after the truth that comes from God. I am not saying you are not saved, I have no right to say that. But if someone questions the truth (the Word) how can it be possible for that person to be saved, since we are saved through His Word.
---Mark_V. on 12/27/13


Christian, Why do you place the comma after "thee"? There was no punctuation 'till the 14th century.
Your comma placement is your opinion to bolster the belief in the immortal soul! (scripture does not support this pagan belief)
---1st_cliff on 12/27/13


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Samuelbb7, you keep babbling Luke 16:19-31 to be a parable and yet you have a hard time explaining what the parable in your eyes are saying.

What did Christ say to the thief on the cross before he died? "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." Luke 23:43 - was Jesus telling the thief a parable?

"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom" - does this even sound like a parable to you? Sounds very real to me, when someone passes on from this world of what happens beyond what our eyes can see, isn,t it?

Where do you think Abraham and the rest of the saints who have passed on, are right now?
---christan on 12/26/13


"First Christian I did not say JESUS was lying. I said it was a parable. Not the same thing. Please do not make false accusation...So please tell me why the multitude of scripture are false in your sight?"-Samuelbb7 on 12/26/13
Interesting and ironic.
---micha9344 on 12/26/13


Mark V, Tell me one thing in my posts that is not true,OK? then I'll work on this point.
---1st_cliff on 12/26/13


First Christian I did not say JESUS was lying. I said it was a parable. Not the same thing. Please do not make false accusation. Second to both and Elder.

You teach that the dead are sprits/souls with no bodies. But the Parable says they have bodies. That makes the story contradict your doctrine.

Christian you say that the name of Lazarus used about a resurrection from the dead is a coincidence. Why? On what basis?

It seems that both of you base the doctrine of an immortal soul on two scriptures.

Whereas Conditionalism is based on over 50 scriptures and the Resurrection. See I Corinthians 15. So please tell me why the multitude of scripture are false in your sight?
---Samuelbb7 on 12/26/13


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1Cliff, you believe your wisdom is enough to confirm where Scripture is wrong. But really what you lack is faith, other wise you would not question Luke. Many books in the Bible don't have a writers name, that doesn't mean they are not true. Your education is the barometer of what truth is. But only in your own mind.

I don't understand many stories, but I know they are true because I believe it is the word of God and He speaks to us through His Word. Some things He has not revealed to me, yet has revealed them to others. What you need is faith. The stories are incredible sometimes, but they are true. If you seek you will find the Truth. If you do not seek the truth, then you will know why it says, Unbelievers do not seek after God.
---Mark_V. on 12/26/13


1stCliff, what separates you and MarkV is clearly the gift of God called "faith" which He has graciously given to MarkV and at this point in time, not given to you.

How do you even call yourself a Christian and say "how you know this is Jesus' story since Luke never met Jesus"??? How do you even know Luke never met Christ to begin with? Just because he isn't an apostle means his testimony is false? Is that also likewise for Paul, the one whom we got the majority of our epistles?

Yup, it's the "gift of God through faith" that's lacking in you for now and God-willing you don't die that way. May the Almighty Lord be merciful to your soul as He has with His people.
---christan on 12/25/13


"In the parable the rich man has a body as well as Lazarus having one too."
Samuelbb7

Luke 16:22 states something different than your view. The beggar and the rich man HAD bodies.

Notice three things in v22.
1. The beggar died,
2. was carried by angels into Abraham's bosom,
3. was buried.

As Paul said, To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, II Cor 5:8.

Remember, this account was presented before Jesus' resurrection. It can be considered Old Testament time.

The body goes to the grave. The spirit/soul goes to which ever place of departed spirits prepared for it.
---Elder on 12/25/13


Mark, Tell me how you know this is Jesus' story since Luke never met Jesus !Plus no one else tells it but all evangelicals use this one scripture as "proof".
If this is insight as to what happens at death, why does no one ,especially apostles, tell it?
---1st_cliff on 12/25/13


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Samuel, it does not contradict what I believe concerning the spirit of man when he dies. I mentioned to you that Jesus is God. And as God He sees the future. He can give a story of something that already happen, like after the resurrection. He could be talking about a story way in the future that He sees concerning one is hell and one not in hell. Second the Lazarus mentioned is not the same Lazarus spoken in John. Third, to suggest that Jesus was lying about the story is to call Him a liar. And I would be very careful doing that. If He is the Truth, how can He give a lie?
---Mark_V. on 12/25/13


I say Jesus was not lying. His story was a true story. Of course you can suggest He lied and made up a false tale. Mark_V.

I have already stated that the name Lazarus was used to point to the real Lazarus who would latter die and be raised from the dead.

Yes I understand you think the story is real to prove a doctrine not found in the Bible.

But if this story is real it would prove you doctrine false. For it would show not an immortal soul in hell but a physical body in hell. A point you refuse to face.

Agape.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/24/13


Samuel, first of all you do not know if the story Jesus told about the rich man and the beggar was a parable or not. What we know of the story, is that the man, Lazarus, was the only person Jesus ever name in one of His stories.
To suggest that Jesus made up a story of a man, and turn around and say, Jesus was lying, there was no such person, is to suggest Jesus was lying. You know He is God, right? And He can see the future, right? you have no way of authenticating that man never existed. If he was a person then the story is real.
I say Jesus was not lying. His story was a true story. Of course you can suggest He lied and made up a false tale.
---Mark_V. on 12/24/13


Look, the story Jesus told was a true story. If you do not think it was, then there is something wrong with your thinking Samuel. Mark_V.

Yes he is the truth. The Church has understood for two millennium that JESUS taught in Parables. But you disagree so that makes something wrong with me.

I point out you contradict your own doctrine of a soul having a body.

Look at the definition of Parable.

parable noun

1. a short allegorical story designed to illustrate or teach some truth, religious principle, or moral lesson.

2. a statement or comment that conveys a meaning indirectly by the use of comparison, analogy, or the like.

Synonyms
1. allegory, homily, apologue.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 12/23/13


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Samuel, you now say,
"Samuel Yes I agree. One is from the story. The other is the real."
So Jesus made up some story that was not true to make a point? What point would He make if He made up some story? That He could tells stories that were not true?
Look, the story Jesus told was a true story. If you do not think it was, then there is something wrong with your thinking Samuel. Have you forgotten that He is the Truth?
---Mark_V. on 12/23/13


The Lazarus mentioned in Luke 16: 20) who died in (v.22) is clearly not the same Lazarus in (John 11) who died at a later time. Mark_V.

Samuel Yes I agree. One is from the story. The other is the real.

If Abraham and the rich man mentioned were "communicating" after he died, separated by "a great gulf fixed", did not even exist after death according to you in his soul, Christ was a liar for even speaking about after death. christan

Since they had bodies it would have to be after the resurrection. Telling a story to prove a point is not lying. Nathan and David.

Yes the passage could be more referring to JESUS than Lazarus. Both are acceptable since both views negate your understanding.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/22/13


Samuel, you said,

JESUS knew that He would latter on resurrect Lazarus from the dead. So he was telling his listeners that a person will not believe scripture they will not believe even the resurrection of a dead man."


The Lazarus mentioned in Luke 16: 20) who died in (v.22) is clearly not the same Lazarus in (John 11) who died at a later time.
---Mark_V. on 12/21/13


samuelbb7, nice try about your explanation on Luke 16:19-31, especially on the part of the resurrection. Christ was not referring to Lazarus but Himself. For when He spoke He was yet to be crucified and resurrected.

Verse 31 was a classic statement of multitudes who are in unbelief in the final prophet God sent to the world, His Son Jesus Christ, who died and rose from the dead, it was not in reference to Lazarus. You are that such classic case of not believing this account is real.

If Abraham and the rich man mentioned were "communicating" after he died, separated by "a great gulf fixed", did not even exist after death according to you in his soul, Christ was a liar for even speaking about after death.
---christan on 12/20/13


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Actually Christian no. The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus (a point attested to by many scholars) was written to show false theology.

Sadducees and Pharisees taught being rich was a reward of GOD. Which is one of the reasons that the idea of a rich man being hard to save was surprising to the Apostles. Matt.19:24

In the parable the rich man has a body as well as Lazarus having one too. Yet the immortal soul doctrine has that there is no body. So it contradicts that doctrine.

JESUS knew that He would latter on resurrect Lazarus from the dead. So he was telling his listeners that a person will not believe scripture they will not believe even the resurrection of a dead man.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/20/13


Did the Israelites believe they went to heaven when they died? B C V please!----- Blog question

They knew they were promised another life.
Gen 50:24 Joseph said unto his brethren, I die: God will surely visit you, and bring you out of this land unto the land which he sware to Abraham, Isaac, and to Jacob.

Exo 13:19 Moses took the bones of Joseph with him: ....

Eze 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

Rev 21:1 I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away, and there was no more sea.
---Trav on 12/20/13


Christian, How does "come inherit the kingdom" translate into "going to heaven"?
A "Kingdom" is a king and subjects, What do you imagine is your part of this "Kingdom?"
Do you have high aspirations of ruling with Christ or being one of His subjects?
FYI It's Christ who chooses not you!
---1st_cliff on 12/20/13


1stCliff, you are the very reason the account of Abraham and the rich man in Luke 16 was written for of those who are in unbelief of Hades and Paradise.

"For I have five brethren, that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets, let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

And Abraham said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."


That's how serious your problem is in unbelief of the Word.
---christan on 12/20/13


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\\That mankind is destined for heaven or the fire is pagan mythology!
---1st_cliff on 12/19/13\\

With the exception of Job ("Though worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God"), there is no mention of resurrection or any kind of afterlife until the major and minor prophets, most of which were written during or after the First Exile.

Not even all Jews at the time of Christ believed in these things. Remember that the Saducees were said to not believe in angel or spirits or the Resurrection.

To say that Abraham and others were expecting to "go to heaven when they died" is to project a late idea onto an early period.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/19/13


Are you saying that Jesus Christ was a pagan? That's because He explicitly taught the following:

"Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels
."
Matthew 25:34,41
---christan on 12/19/13


The promises of God to them Isa.65.17-25 were definitely earthly. They had no notion of going to heaven!
Psl.115.16 "The highest heavens belong to the Lord but the earth He has given to man"!
That mankind is destined for heaven or the fire is pagan mythology!
---1st_cliff on 12/19/13


\\If Jews were not looking for heaven Jesus parables would not make any sense.
---Scott1 on 12/19/13\\

Actually, the Jews of Christ's earthly sojourn thought that the Messiah would be an EARTHLY rule, and that "Kingdom of Heaven" was a messianic EARTHLY age.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/19/13


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king david was part of the heritage of Jesus.
---shira4368 on 12/19/13


Not all israelites practiced the same religion, therefore their were different beliefs.

Bcv...Genesis 1:1 to Revelation of Jesus Christ 22:21.
---aka on 12/19/13


Yes that is why the Christ is called the Son of David. It is a reference to the golden age of Israel under David when the king lead the nation toward God. In Jesus's parables he calls heaven the Kingdom of God. If Jews were not looking for heaven Jesus parables would not make any sense.
---Scott1 on 12/19/13


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