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Two Second Comings Of Jesus

Some seem to believe there is two second comings of Christ. 1. Jesus comes to gather the church. 2. Jesus will come on the Day of the Lord. Are these two comings or just one? Give Scripture.

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Gentiles dont need to be included in Israel. In fact, the opposite is true, Gentiles are saved by faith in Christ without being included in Israel. Thats one of Pauls big points in Romans and Galatians Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians are united, not in Israel, but in the promises to Abraham and ultimately in Christ.

The root of the olive tree in Romans 11:17-24 doesnt stand for Israel, but for Gods promises of salvation given to Abraham, who is not only the father of Israel but the father of many nations, see Romans 4. This is what Paul reiterates in Galatians as well.
---kathr4453 on 1/3/14


Trav, your scriptures in rev is so true. Christains today are not Jews either, as so many want to spiritualized away as well. Seeing these letters are to the church! and we see in these last days so many denominations wanting to be a wanna b Jew. Just like so many messianic Jews who are actually 99% Gentiles being put back under the Law, and traditions, celebrating feast days etc. revisit Colossians 2 for that mistake.


Thanks for sharing those verses. The NEW creature we are clearly told is NEITHER Jew or gentile!
---kathr4453 on 1/3/14


The new creature is never referred to as Israel or the New Israel or the Israel of God.
---kathr4453 on 1/3/14

The scriptures, and every prophet, by your misunderstanding of Galatians, rebukes your position and attempt of teaching.
Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law,....
Calling oneself a "jew", more properly Judean is dangerous sometimes, applicable marks given scripturally.
Rev_2:9 I know thy works, tribulation, poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Rev_3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie, behold, I will make them ....
---Trav on 1/3/14


Ruben, I believe the answer is found in these verses.

Isaiah 9:5-7

5 For every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood, but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire.

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
---kathr4453 on 1/3/14


//---michael_e on 1/3/14//.
//kathr4453 on 1/3/14//

Respectably, I will take this into consideration.

I do see all In - Christ become - One Body - just as a husband and wife are consider - One.

My thoughts are that there is an order of operation.
A bride and a groom - then the marriage - becoming one only at consummation.
All things of Israel as (Wife forsaken) - cleansed and forgiven for her groom as a - Virgin bride.

*Wife(Lambs wife)/bride:Israel
*Groom/Husband: Body of Christ
*Become One at marriage/consumation

Isa 54:5-8, Is 61:10-11 Is62:3-5, Ps45:9, Jer31:3-12,Rev21,Eph 2:15

Jn17(all)

Thank-you both for your insight.I will study further.

Shalom
---char on 1/3/14




Yes Kathr Paul does not use the words you say. But he does say that the root of Israel is JESUS. That branches of Israel were broken off that gentiles might be grafted in. What are they grafted into? It has to be something that already exists. What were we grafted into :
Eph 2:12

That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, ...

Israel gave Birth to JESUS in revelation then they continue on and they are mentioned as having the faith of JESUS. What group was persecuted by haters of GOD. The Church. Yes Calvinists do believe in replacement theory. That is where the SDA got it from.
---Samuelb77 on 1/3/14


The remnant of her seed, Israel's seed, meaning there is/will be a remnant in Israel who are faithful to God just as there is now today. Romans 11.
---kathr4453 on 1/2/14

Kathr,

Is This verse talking about Jesus, Yes or No?

" She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and his throne." ( Rev 12:5 )

If the answer is Yes and it should, Who gave birth to Jesus???
---Ruben on 1/3/14


Paul announces something kept secret, separate from Israel and separate from the purpose of prophecy, the boC the church (Col 1:27, 1 Cor 12:13).

Paul says there is neither Jew nor Greek in Christ (Gal 3:28). The grace of God is offered freely on the merits of the death and resurrection of Christ. The righteousness of God comes by faith in Christ (Rom 3:21-24).

Instead of becoming part of or replacing Israel, Paul announces a new creature, the boC. Eph 2:15
Out of two groups, Jews and Gentiles, Christ made a new man and agency for salvation. This is what we become when we are saved today.
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away, behold, all things are become new. 2 Cor 5:17
---michael_e on 1/3/14


I will have to clarify to some here that I do not believe in "Replacement Theology", that is that the Church REPLACED the promises given to Earthly Israel for end times.

I believe the Church, a wholly NEW THING IN CHRIST and the Promises to the Church have nothing to do with those everlasting Promises God gave to Earthly Israel including His coming as KING and the 1000 year reign.

The Church was never promised LAND

The Church will NEVER have to be driven in the wilderness and fear it may happen on the Sabbath among other things.

Replacement Theology is held by RCC, SDA, Mormonism, Calvinism, and JW's.
---kathr4453 on 1/3/14


Samuel, let's put this another way, looking through my eyes. I am Jewish. I am Born Again. I am not Israel. I am an individual who is saved. I am a new creature in Christ.

You ( a gentile) are saved. You do not become Israel. If I don't remain Israel then you certainly do not become Israel. So says Galatians.

The new creature is never referred to as Israel or the New Israel or the Israel of God. Remember in Galatians the word AND precedes the Israel of God, meaning in addition to the new creation.
---kathr4453 on 1/3/14




Kathr, the Remnant of God is the Church. Those "called out from Israel, and those called out from the Gentiles." They are both one. In the Old T., only those remaining by faith from apostate Israel, in the New T. those remaining by faith.
"The children of Promise" are those who receive the promise of the Spirit through faith" (Gal. 3:14). Paul reveals that Ishmael represents unbelieving Jews, while Isaac represents Jews and Gentiles who have faith in Christ.
"now we brethren (as believers in Christ, as Isaac was, are children of promise" (Gal. 4:28). The children of the flesh these are not the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as the seed" (Rom. 9:8).
---Mark_V. on 1/3/14


Samuel, the definition of a remnant is that which is left of the original. Like a remnant of a bolt of fabric.

One would have to be a part of the real thing to be a remnant. Just because one claims to be saved, doesn't technically make him part of the original. So with that, the true CHURCH can never have a remnant.

Israel and the church did not become one. Israel when stated as Israel means the whole nation. Individual saved Jews are not called Israel. The NATION as the whole is called Israel. Saved Jews are a NEW creature IN Christ, totally severed from Israel.
---kathr4453 on 1/2/14


The church is never referred to as a remnant, but a whole NEW thing.

The church "as a whole" can't be driven into the wilderness for 3 1/2 years. But most telling is the church is not the remnant of Israel's seed.
kathr4453

After the Birth of JESUS the church and Israel became one. Those who had the faith of JESUS were Christians whether of Jewish descent or not. This passage is not literal and not Mary. On that we seem to agree.

GOD made the New Covenant with Israel. Hebrews 8:8

So unless the Church is joined to Israel we cannot be believers.

Of all those who claim to be Christians only a small group or remnant will be saved.
---Samuelbb7 on 1/2/14


Ruben, the WOMAN who rides the beast is not Mary, or a singular person either. So here we know it is symbolic of something.

To make war with the remnant of Mary's seed??? Who exactly is Mary's seed. HER SEED is Israel, the Seed of Abraham the seed of David. It cannot literally mean Mary's physical seed, as women have no seed. Is Jesus really referred to as the seed of Mary? If so, please show at least one other verse using the term "seed of MARY".

Mary doesn't have a REMNANT and "the REMNANT" is always referring to Israel.

The remnant of her seed, Israel's seed, meaning there is/will be a remnant in Israel who are faithful to God just as there is now today. Romans 11.
---kathr4453 on 1/2/14


Ruben, Kathr is correct, the woman mentioned in (Rev. 12:1) is not Mary. In the context it is Israel. It was not an actual woman but a symbolic representation of Israel,
---Mark_V. on 1/2/14

If it is a symbolic then the male son who will rule all nations is also symbolic???( Rev 12:5)
---Ruben on 1/2/14


To put Mary's mane in ALL verses that say woman makes no sense.
---kathr4453 on 1/2/14

Kathr,

Why not, God and Jesus did?

" And I will put enmity between you and the woman"( Gen3:15)

" Dear woman, why do you involve me, Jesus replied" (Jhn 2:4) -NIV

" Woman, behold your son" ( Jhn 19:26)

And Rev 12: 1-5...
---Ruben on 1/2/14


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//kathr4453 on 1/2/14/
I Agree.
Isa 14:1 Eze 37:28, Rev21
Gen49(all)"And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, "Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.Gather yourselves together, and hear, ye sons of Jacob, and hearken unto Israel your father."

Witness:Israel as(wife-forgiven - new bride) Ps45.Is 61,Rev 21
The chosen people the Seed of Ysha (YHVH) would come - called in Isaac.Gen21:12,
Seed - Jesus Christ (YHVH Savior) of all people (Jn3:15-16)
Rom9:7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Heb 11
18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

Shalom
---char on 1/2/14


Mark V, The Second Coming of Yahushua (JESUS CHRIST) is made up of different events.
The main Second Coming, the one most people think of when the term is mentioned, is the literal and physical return of King Yahushua back to the Earth, to reign as King for 1,000 years.

But, Yahushua is coming for His Bride, via the Rapture of the Bride.
If someone wants to call that a "second coming", then, they really need to be more specific in their terminology.
The Rapture and the literal Second Coming of Yahushua to the Earth to reign are two different events.
'Course, you remember, you and I already hit on this before.
But, distinctive terms ought to be used, for the sake of clarification.
---Gordon on 1/2/14


Again Ruben , it's. OT Mary! but Israel. Mary was never or will ever be given two wings like an eagle. This again goes back to the OT concerning Israel. To put Mary's mane in ALL verses that say woman makes no sense. This is reiterating what Daniel prophesied. And it concerns earthly Israel . NOT the church/body of Christ.

It also most likely concerns Jacob's prophecies over his sons in Genesis 49 concerning the LAST days.
---kathr4453 on 1/2/14


Ruben, Kathr is correct, the woman mentioned in (Rev. 12:1) is not Mary. In the context it is Israel. It was not an actual woman but a symbolic representation of Israel, pictured in the Old T. as the wife of God (Is. 54:5,6: Jer. 3:6-8: 31:32: Ez. 16:32: Hos. 2:16). It does not represent the church or Mary from the context. Because "Clothed with the Sun, moon under her feet, with the twelve stars" Is found in (Gen. 37:9-11) representing Joseph's dream.
In Revelation there is three other symbolic woman mentioned.
1. Jezebel who represents paganism (2:20)
2. The Scarlet woman (17:3-6) who represents the apostate Church.
3. the wife of the Lamb (19:7) symbolizing the true church.
---Mark_V. on 1/2/14


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Actually Ruben, Israel did bring in the messiah. Israel is called the wife of The Lord.
---kathr4453 on 12/31/13

But who gave birth to the messiah?

Mary or Israel?

"Do not be afraid Mary, You will be with a child and give birth to a son, and you will give him the name of Jesus.

" He will be great and will be called the Son of God , The Lord of God will give him the throne..(LK 1: 29-33)

" She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations..her child was snatch up to God and his throne."(rev 12,5)
---Ruben on 1/1/14


The Church is called" "the called out" one's. All who are called out by God make up the church of Christ. Christ is the Head of the Church. Matters not who these people are, or where they come from. Every single person that is called by God from the Old Testament to the New Testament make up the Church of Christ. There is no two different Churches of Christ but One. Each individual is spiritually baptized into One body and is one part of the body of Christ Church. When the believers in Christ are gathered at the Second Coming, the Church goes to be with Christ. There is never another Church after that event.
There is only One spiritual Church of Christ, and only One Second Coming.
---Mark_V. on 1/1/14


Actually Ruben, Israel did bring in the messiah. Israel is called the wife of The Lord.
---kathr4453 on 12/31/13


Happy New year everyone!

Yes Samuel, the Woman Israel here does have the testimony of Jesus Christ, the remnant of Israel who at that time the faithful. Possibly those 144,000 of the 12 tribes, and those the 144,000 witness to.

The church is never referred to as a remnant, but a whole NEW thing.

The church "as a whole" can't be driven into the wilderness for 3 1/2 years. But most telling is the church is not the remnant of Israel's seed.

I see later on too they sang the songs of Moses, going back to OT Israel.
---kathr4453 on 12/31/13


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The Woman is NOT Mary, as Mary did NOT give birth to the 12 Apostles OR the 12 tribes of Israel.

Several scriptures in the OT also qualify The WOMAN as being Israel.
---kathr4453 on 12/31/13

But scriptures says:

" SHE gave birth to a man, a male child, who will rule all the nationsRev 12:5)

israel never gave born to a male child but Mary sure did!!!
---Ruben on 12/31/13


Dear Kathr

I hope you will have a nice New Year.

Yes the Women pictured is Israel. And if the verse on the women ended in verse 6 you could say that the church is not Israel. But if you keep reading:
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony, and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The whole chapter is about the women. She has the testimony of JESUS CHRIST.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 12/31/13


Jesus says "immediately after the tribulation of those days" (Matthew 24:29) > He will come "with the great sound of a trumpet" (Matthew 24:31) > angels "will gather together His elect". Paul says "at the last trumpet" (1 Corinthians 15:52). The last trumpet Jesus mentions is "immediately after" the trib.

We resurrected "will shine forth as the sun" (Matthew 13:43), with us He will come down, clean away all evil, and resurrect the earth into our "glorious liberty" (Romans 8:21). Then we the "New Jerusalem" (Revelation 21:2) "prepared as a bride for her husband", come down to stay on the resurrectionally glorified earth.
---willie_c: on 12/31/13


Kathr: "Because I believe the church is not Israel"

Then who do you think the woman of Rev 12 represents?

---jerry6593 on 12/31/13

Jerry I believe the woman is Israel. not the church. here's why. The 12 stars are the 12 tribes of Israel. The sun and moon referred to in Joseph's dream in Genesis is also referring to Israel. Go back and look what Jacob said concerning Joseph's dream re sun and moon. Jacob qualifies that statement as being himself and Rachael.

The Woman is NOT Mary, as Mary did NOT give birth to the 12 Apostles OR the 12 tribes of Israel.

Several scriptures in the OT also qualify The WOMAN as being Israel.
---kathr4453 on 12/31/13


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Kathr, I posted the question for the simple reason of discussion. I heard your view and discussed what you said to what the Bible tells us. I even put down the passages. You on the other hand have provide nothing but your opinion. I asked if they were two comings or one. You say there is two and give no scripture that they are two. If you post something be prepared for someone to answer your post if they have Scripture to answer with.
If you don't like people answering you, you should not post.
---Mark_V. on 12/31/13


Kathr: "Because I believe the church is not Israel"

Then who do you think the woman of Rev 12 represents?

Rev 12:1-5 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And there appeared another wonder in heaven, and behold a great red dragon, ... and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.



---jerry6593 on 12/31/13


Kathr 2: you don't want me to answer yet keep using my name to make your point across on other blogs. You said:
"But according to Markv, HE was forced into salvation, and faith was FORCED on him to enter in."
God forces no one, another lie from you. You tell me, when God took you out of the path heading to hell, did He force you, or did He show His mercy? What you are saying is you do not want mercy, because showing mercy God is forcing you. And you do not want to be force out of your path to hell, you want to continue heading to hell because you have rights, you can reject His mercy with your own free will.
God does as He desires. You just don't believe that. You want your right to choose. Have at it.
---Mark_V. on 12/31/13


Hi Samuel, what I do know is the Church was not revealed in the OT, but was/is the mystery revealed in the New. So Daniel is not about the church but Israel. Also, there are those who after studying Daniel wondered why he was not also in the furnace. Some suggest that too is a type, of Daniel representing the church who will not be part of the great tribulation.

Because I believe the church is not Israel and no OT promises given to earthly Israel apply to the NT church, but to Israel alone, is probably where we will always have different viewpoints here. The 70th week, still to be fulfilled is something Paul never taught as addressing the church. He does speak about the day of The Lord , but says we will be translated out before then.
---kathr4453 on 12/30/13


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Samuel, Happy New year to you too.

This is a great discussion. Now my understanding is, the majority of Christianity does believe in the rapture of the church? WHEN is where there are many views about it. Although I'm not 100% sure myself when that will take place! since I flip flop between two views, pre and mid, as both have good points, yet both have issues as well.

Maybe many things God just has not revealed at this time and won't until the time of his choosing, it's good not to become dogmatic on this issue.

Praise God Jesus IS coming and you know YOU will be with Him, whenever that time is. Always looking, always prepared no matter what.
---kathr4453 on 12/30/13


Happy New Year Kathr

The two points we seem to disagree on are that the Church and Israel is one.

That the rapture is not the Second coming.

Yes men and women and jews are still different groups. But we are in one church. I have pointed out that we are the branches that are broken off. That we are one as in Ephesians.

But we have not discussed the Seventy weeks of Daniel 9. The two different ways of understanding this passage is the main argument for the church not being Israel. Yet many people do not know it. What do you know about it?

Agape.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/30/13


Markv, let's be clear here. there are several views on end times. YOU do not believe in the rapture, so that is YOUR VIEW, not mine. I am giving my view as I understand it.

You have a right to your view, and I have a right to mine.

It's not open here for ARGUING, as I was having a NICE discussion with Samuel who understands my view is also different from his.

If you want to start a fight markv, go on another blog. not here.
---kathr4453 on 12/30/13


Kathr, Colossians 3 explains nothing. Then say,
" to answer your statement that the WHOLE world is going to hear the trump and Jesus voice, seems to be in conflict to your own belief that only those who are saved can hear God's voice."
Where did I ever say that? Nowhere. When the Second Coming comes everyone will hear. It will be the loudest noise anyone heard. The Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout. On that Day of the Lord, we should be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, "For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through the Lord Jesus Christ"
Here again, we are told God did not appoint us to wrath, meaning He appointed many to wrath.
---Mark_V. on 12/30/13


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Right here Markv .

Colossians 3:1-4
3 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
---kathr4453 on 12/29/13


Well, Markv, to answer your statement that the WHOLE world is going to hear the trump and Jesus voice, seems to be in conflict to your own belief that only those who are saved can hear God's voice. And if the last trump is the 7th trump spoken in Revelation 10( 7 being complete, and it seems there is no 8,9,10 trumpets mentioned) will those also be heard? So many today seem to believe we are already in the Great Tribulation. My question is, how many trumps have you personally heard, and which one are we on now?

When Paul was struck down on the road to Damascus, .....did those who were with him hear every word spoken to Paul and were they too also blinded?
---kathr4453 on 12/29/13


Kathr, after all those post that no one can answer because they are too many, I will answer one you put down:
"The Rapture, according to Scripture, will be an instantaneous, hidden event.
1 Corinthians 15:50-54"
Where does it say it will be hidden? Read (1 Thess. 4:16-18) is it hidden? Or silent? Not at all,
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God" (v. 4:16). sounds like a very loud noise. In fact everyone will know. If you continue reading (1 Thess. 5:1-9) this Day of the Lord comes with sudden destruction and no one left shall escape. It will be like the days of Noah.
---Mark_V. on 12/28/13


Ok, let's recap. Herod, who had converted to Judaism (who was originally an Edomite) was placed as king over Israel by Rome.

Now I have always wondered if this was not some clue to who anti-Christ would be in our time. Herod certainly was in that age. Many want to say that the anti-Christ who sits in the temple as though he were god who makes a covenant with Israel would have to be a Jew to pull it off......BUT we see Herod, who was a proselyte actually and not a literal descendent of any of Jacob's tribes take that place, order the murder of Jews 2 and under as well as Jesus....well, Just a thought.
---kathr4453 on 12/28/13


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Samuel, here is the verses you asked for.

Isaiah 28:15
Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement, when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

Isaiah 28:18
And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand, when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

This has yet to come to pass, but has to do with end times and another reason why God's wrath comes on Israel.
---kathr4453 on 12/28/13


John 1:49 - Nathanael answered and saith unto him Rabbi thou art the Son of God, thou art King of Israel.
John 1:50 - Jesus answered and saith unto him, Because I said unto thee , I saw thee under the fig tree , Believest Thou? thou shalt see greater things than these,
---RICHARDC on 12/27/13


Another important fact many may not see was the crown of thorns which said "KING OF THE JEWS". This was to mock Jesus.

When Herod who was a Jew ((but not from the line of Judah)) heard about the birth if Jesus Herod KNEW his scriptures, and was scared to death because he know the promise of the KING of Israel promised, having all the male sons 2 years and under killed. Herod placed there by Rome was not and did not have any authority from GOD to rule as a King over Israel.

Herod wasn't afraid of a savior of the world. but he was afraid of the KING promised. Jesus stating to Herod...My Kingdom is not of this world. So here we see two kingdoms. One earthly, one heavenly.
---kathr4453 on 12/27/13


#2 Acts 1:6-7 the apostles ask, before Jesus ascended INTO HEAVEN....ARE YOU AT THIS TIME GOING TO RESTORE THE KINGDOM TO ISRAEL. Jesus answered...Only the FATHER knows when that day will be. AGAIN LOOK AT VERSE 11. So NO, the Kingdom promised to Israel was NOT restored after and with Pentecost.

NOW LOOK AT MATTHEW 24-25...ONLY THE FATHER KNOWS...but also look at what is happening in Matthew 24-25 compare to Revelation, compare to Zechariah 12-14. and Isaiah 14.

It's not hard to understand if you rightly divide the word of Truth and don't spiritualize away those promises to Israel by saying they got absorbed spiritually into the Church.
---kathr4453 on 12/27/13


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Romans 2:28 - For he is not a Jew which is one Outwardly , neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh ,
Romans 2:29 - But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly, and the circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, not in the letter, whose praise is not men, but of God,
---RICHARDC on 12/27/13


Samuelbb7 on 12/27/13

The church is not Israel. the Church are those from Pentecost to now who have a mystical union with Jesus Christ as His Body/bride called the NEW CREATION. Old things pass away, and ALL things become NEW.

John the Baptist announced the earthly Kingdom to Israel promised through the old testament. These promises were NOT done away at the cross, but only through the Cross could they come to pass. Yet, that took a back seat until Jesus died and rose again. The Church is formed during this dispensation of GRACE, and after it is complete/finished, Rev 10:7, the GLORIFIED Christ will return to set up His earthly Kingdom for 1000 years as promised. Rev 11 to the end see. alsosee Zechariah 12-14.
---kathr4453 on 12/27/13


Samuel, the Body of Christ is not called Israel. Israel was the name given to Jacob as head of the earthly descendants of God's chosen people. Israel today are enemies of the Church, yet they are beloved of the Father....See Romans 11.

After the Rapture the Gospel of the KINDGOM will be preached. The Gospel of the Kingdom is to Israel, as John the Baptist preached.

This is why Judas turned on Jesus. Judas believed right then Jesus was going to overthrow Rome and set up His earthly Kingdom as promised, right then. Jesus left Glory to be born of a virgin, He wasn't born Glorified to grow up then to be King. His Glorification came after His resurrection. therefore the earthly Kingdom comes AFTER His resurrection.
---kathr4453 on 12/27/13


"The Church one body of overcomers (Israel). Ephesians 2"-Samuelbb7 on 12/27/13
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us,
-How does breaking down the wall suck Gentiles into Israel?
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
-Answer: It doesn't.
Male doesn't become female nor female, male.
Greek doesn't become Jew nor Jew, Greek.
All are one in Christ.
1Co 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
3 groups
---micha9344 on 12/27/13


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The Church did not replace Israel,..
Samuel, I would ask, ...why would God hold the body of Christ guilty...? WRATH upon the Nation of Israel also because they make a covenant with anti-Christ... The Church made out of both Jew and Gentile... kathr4453

Agreed the Church is not punished for the sins of Israel, never said that. The Church one body of overcomers (Israel). Ephesians 2, will not suffer wrath. We will be see it. Israel already was punished for the Golden Calf read Exodus.

Now the doctrine of Futurism which says the nation Israel will make a covenant with the antichrist. Please show me where the bible says that? Do you know the Seventy weeks of Daniel doctrine on which Futurism is based and can you explain it?
---Samuelbb7 on 12/27/13


now the question is....during what part of the great tribulation will the saints be translated out. Since He is "coming WITH His saints" as stated more than one place. kathr4453

One possibility is this refers to the Great White Throne Judgment which has the saints in the New Jerusalem here on earth as the wicked are judged then executed.

Since the word also means Holy Ones it could refer to Angels. I have only found it once in First Thessalonians.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/27/13


\\but there is no reason the new creature of the new creation must go through the great trib\\

Aside from the fact that Jesus said so.

"I pray that You NOT take them out of the world, but that You keep them safe from the evil one."

The Rapturist prays, "Don't listen to Jesus! You take us OUT of this world!"

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 12/27/13


The Rapture, according to Scripture, will be an instantaneous, hidden event.
1 Corinthians 15:50-54


The Second Coming, according to Scripture, will be seen by everyone.
Revelation 1:7

there is only ONE second coming not two. The Rapture of the church is not called the second coming.
---kathr4453 on 12/27/13


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JamesL, no the rapture has not happened, but there is no reason the new creature of the new creation must go through the great trib. We now as we speak have already spiritually been translated out of this present evil age Into the kingdom of His dear Son ( my kingdom is not of this world) through much tribulation. So when the GREAT trib happens, which has to do with this earthly old old creation dealing with those of this old creation, who are still part of this old creation, why does the new creature who is already part of the new creation IN Christ have to endure the wrath of God?

Christian suffering is not a matter of the will, but a matter of fact. Salvation is a surrendered of your will. It's not an option after the fact.
---kathr4453 on 12/27/13


faithforhim, if what you say:
"I FEEL that His second coming already happened (TO ME) when He came into my heart {as I sought to "draw near")."
If that is what you believe the Second Coming of Christ means, then it is your own believe. Not the One mentioned in Scripture. Second, no one lost seeks after God, you said you sought to draw near. We are told:
"There is none who understands, there is none who seeks after God" (Rom. 3:11). You might also believe while lost you sought to draw near Him, but that too is not what the Bible says.
The Second Coming is only one event. Not two, not three.
---Mark_V. on 12/27/13


Colossians 1:12-14
12 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

and according to Ephesians we are already seated with Christ in Heavenly places in Christ. SOOO there is no reason for us to be here.

now the question is....during what part of the great tribulation will the saints be translated out. Since He is "coming WITH His saints" as stated more than one place....

Possibly Revelation 10:7 when the "MYSTERY OF GOD" is finished. "THE MYSTERY OF GOD" stated only one other time is in Colossians 2, meaning the CHURCH.
---kathr4453 on 12/27/13


Kathr,
Rev 7:4-8 accounts the sealing of the 144,000 from Israel, then:

7:9-14
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes....
These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


These are clearly NOT Israel. Do you think there will be a second church?

Also, wrath is for the wicked, but

Dan 7:21 & Rev 13:7
The antichrist will make war with the Saints, and prevail

THAT is tribulation, for saints
---James_L on 12/26/13


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yes, John said the Lords day. The Lords day is that of the NEW creation, not old....\\
---kathr4453 on 12/26/13

But you said earlier that the Lord's Day is the day of rapture.

Since John was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, does that mean that a rapture has already happened?


Also, I have never said that we choose our suffering, or fabricate it, or anything like that

Suffering is a matter of the will. That's not the same thing

When Jesus said, "Not My will, but Thine" He wasn't saying "I choose this"

In fact, He prayed "Let this cup pass from Me"

He laid down His will. THAT was a "matter" of the will.
---James_L on 12/26/13


But the Children of Israel did not suffer the wrath of GOD during the Exodus which is what is going to happen to the Church. Moses was a type of JESUS. After the plagues fall on those around us then JESUS comes in the clouds Matthew 24,25 and all his get to go home.//

Samuel, Moses is not a type of GRACE or the New Creature. Moses was not even allowed to enter the promise land. That in no way suggests he lost his salvation, but the type pointing to Grace would be Joshua.

The Church did not replace Israel, Nor will the Church have to pay for the sin of the Nation Israel which God did say would be revisited upon them because of the Golden Calf.
---kathr4453 on 12/26/13


Samuel, first I would like to ask, ...why would God hold the body of Christ who's sin is forgiven once and for all, past present and future, accountable for Israel the Nations sin? that goes completely against scripture. God's "wrath" are "the bowls spoken of in Revelation starting chapter 11. God's WRATH upon the Nation of Israel is also because they make a covenant with anti-Christ called the covenant of hell. This has nothing to do with the Church called the Body of Christ. The Church made out of both Jew and Gentile will not be held accountable for any sin, since we are forgiven of sin or anyone past sin, who rejected Jesus 2000 years ago.
---kathr4453 on 12/26/13


How could there be....

TWO 2nd comings?

Mathematically, one is called a "SECOND coming"...
and the other a "THIRD coming".

...(how many temples do you believe there are?...JESUS is our worship temple John 2:19 and 21).


Devotion should be PERSONAL. If anyone would be so inclined to think of the SECOND coming as when Jesus came into their heart, soul, and mind,then do you think that God would hold that against them (even if THEY ARE WRONG?).

TRUE DEVOTION/WORSHIP IS NOT ABOUT RIGHT AND WRONG, it's about LOVING GOD.
---faithforfaith on 12/26/13


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There's no reason for any born again Christian who is the very BODY of Christ to endure the wrath of God. God will NEVER endure His wrath on his very own person.
kathr4453

Correct Kathr

But the Children of Israel did not suffer the wrath of GOD during the Exodus which is what is going to happen to the Church. Moses was a type of JESUS. After the plagues fall on those around us then JESUS comes in the clouds Matthew 24,25 and all his get to go home.

By the way. Sunday is never called the LORD's day. that came about a couple of hundred years after the Bible was written. JESUS said He was LORD of the Sabbath. Matt. 12:8

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 12/26/13


JamesL, yes, John said the Lords day. The Lords day is that of the NEW creation, not old. Those born from above can say ...this is the day that The Lord has made! we will REJOICE and be glad in it. The resurrection of Christ began a new day. That's why we worship on Sunday, not Saturday. The Lords day vs the sabbath day.

Can't say that about the DAY of THE LORD, stated many times through out the OT as the day of his WRATH.
---kathr4453 on 12/26/13


JamesL, Christians suffer from the moment of salvation. The great trib is the wrath of God, and scripture states we are saved "from" the wrath to come. Not saved "through" it. In Thessalonians , because of their sufferings, they were told then it was the great trib, but Paul says no, that there will first be a falling away, WE will meet Christ in the clouds, and then when the anti_christ sits in the temple as though he were God, ( only address Jews since we are not looking for Jesus to sit in any temple)), ((only Israel is looking for their earthly King)) this alone is why God's wrath is to come upon a Israel, also called the day of Jacob's trouble ...is for Israel's chastisement. None of this applies to the church.
---kathr4453 on 12/25/13


JamesL, the wrath of God is not the fellowship of His sufferings. The only way to know this is if you've experienced the fellowship of his sufferings conforming you to the image of Jesus Christ.

There's no reason for any born again Christian who is the very BODY of Christ to endure the wrath of God. God will NEVER endure His wrath on his very own person.

You think suffering is a choice to get rewards in the end, yet God says the fellowship of His sufferings belongs to EVERY member baptized into His death.

I believe this is where we differ, and why we come to different conclusions re being translated out. Just as Enoch was translated out before the flood, so will we. Those saved during the great trib represent Noah.
---kathr4453 on 12/25/13


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Kathr4453:

\\ The Lord's Day or the Day of Christ, or the Day of our Lord Jesus Christ is addressed to the Church as the Day of the Rapture or the catching away. \\

John was in the spirit on the Lord's day in Revelation 1:10

Does that mean a rapture has already happened ?


\\ Yes there are two comings of Jesus Christ. \\

I disagree

I don't see any scriptural warrant for believing that the saints will not endure the Great Tribulation

We have been called for the very purpose of suffering with Christ (1Peter 2:20-21). He left us that example to follow

I find it impossible to believe that we would be removed from the ultimate fulfillment of that calling
---James_L on 12/25/13


Faithforhim, my question was simple. If you know how many times Christ is coming again. Two times or three times or just one. That was the question. You are preaching that about what is important concerning Christ. I was not asking what is important when a person is saved or not, it was just a simple question. You do not have to answer if you do not know. That is ok. Some believe in one Second Coming, so what do you believe? If the question does not matter to you, you do not have to answer.
---Mark_V. on 12/25/13


His First coming, A babe wrapped in swaddling clothes & was laid in a manger.
His 2nd coming, the day of The Lord.

When He comes to gather His Own - called by His name Acts 2 v 38, will be in the clouds.
---Lawrence on 12/25/13


However you wish to believe (there is only one "TRUTH" about something, "TRUTH" can only be "KNOWN", but "BE-LIEf" means whatever is accepted as true will BE a LIE) does not really matter [IN WORSHIP].

GOD WORSHIP is all about LOVE FOR GOD (love GOD beyond all wisdom and knowledge)......do not love humanity for divine things (God is a jealous God).

IF YOU LOVE GOD BEYOND ALL WISDOM AND KNOWLEDGE, THEN IT WILL NOT MATTER TO YOU IF YOU BELIEVE WRONG ABOUT THE SECOND COMING. God never told me if I'm wrong (PERHAPS HE IS TOO BUSY BLUSHING).
---faithforfaith on 12/24/13


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The Day of the Lord is the Day of His WRATH, stated many many times in scripture.

The Lord's Day or the Day of Christ, or the Day of our Lord Jesus Christ is addressed to the Church as the Day of the Rapture or the catching away.

One will meet Jesus in the Clouds, and the other Jesus will touch down on the mount of Olives as stated in Zechariah 12-14 when His saints will be "with Him".


Yes there are two comings of Jesus Christ.
---kathr4453 on 12/24/13


Faithforhim, the Spirit brings us to spiritual life, it indwells us, it Spiritually baptizes us into one body in Christ, the Spirit seals us, But when He comes at His Second Coming, He will change us forever with a body prepared for heaven. It will be the consummation of our salvation.
---Mark_V. on 12/24/13


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Zec 14:5 ...and the LORD my God shall come, [and] all the saints with thee.
Jude 1:14 ...Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Zech 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives...
---micha9344 on 12/24/13


Each person's devotion (a PERSONAL worship is "acceptable worship") should contain parts/elements of their heart and soul. I FEEL that His second coming already happened (TO ME) when He came into my heart {as I sought to "draw near"). Ever since then, my heart and my mind have been ENRAPTURED by Him.

Song of Solomon 3:2
"I will seek whom my SOUL loves" (we should be like that maiden).

Today's body of Christ needs to offer "acceptable worship" and not be part of the "son of perdition (Jesus told His Father that all who were given to Him are safe...AND NONE IS LOST...."but the son of perdition".
---faithforfaith on 12/23/13


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What Cliff is teaching is the doctrine that is often called the Pre trib rapture. It was made popular by Hal Lindsy and the Left behind movies.

It is based on Futurism, the church & Israel are two different entities and dispensationalism.

Since I disagree with all three parts then I cannot approve of this teaching.

Most who follow it do not know how they arrive at their understanding.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/23/13


Mark V,
Mat.24.3 "tell us when will this happen what will be the sign of your coming (paousia/presense )

Rev.1.7 Look He is coming in clouds and every eye will see Him Epiphania (revealing)

1Thes.5.3 "While people are saying peace and safety sudden destruction will come (Apocalypse) final revelation!
---1st_cliff on 12/23/13


1Cliff, I am not surprised you answered. I know you love this subjects. But you fail to give Scripture. How about some passages to back-up what you are coming out with?
---Mark_V. on 12/23/13


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