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The Great Falling Away

It is written that there is to be a great falling away from the faith. What will cause you - personally - to fall away from the church? Remember, one must have faith to begin with before one can fall away. And for those who think they won't, think again.

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To Christ, the thought of the heart and the act itself are one and the same work.
"For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:"
"But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."

What the thief do? Did he not relinquish the malice in his heart for the innocent? "But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss."
---Nana on 1/6/14


"Yes I agree with Jacobus Arminius that a believer can lose his salvation." Samuelbb7

There you have it! The "great gulf" that separates you and I. While you profess that you're saved by "grace", your grace comes with the condition of works and that's unbiblical. Here's prove,

"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." Romans 11:6


"Do you believe that a believer can live in rebellion to GOD's law and hatred of others?"

"For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do." Romans 7:19
---christan on 1/6/14


So, tell us then, which side was the thief on the cross supposed to have been since he didn't produce any good works when Christ told him "Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."? christan

The Thief was saved and I am saved instantly by Grace. Works are produced as the result of being saved. So the thief if he had lived would have stopped stealing.

True Swindall does preach Lordship salvation. But he also preaches TULIP and has produces at least one book supporting it.

Yes I agree with Jacobus Arminius that a believer can lose his salvation.

Do you believe that a believer can live in rebellion to GOD's law and hatred of others?
---Samuelbb7 on 1/6/14


I didn't know chuck swindol was a calvanist. yes, we do have free will. but here on christianet that's an old subject and it has been beat to death. one thing for sure those who don't believe in free will and the trinity doesn't sway me one single bit.
---shira4368 on 1/5/14


1stCliff, do the masses believe in election and predestination? You're seriously deluded to what I believe in and sadly for you, majority including yourself mock at my believe. FYI, I can't be following the masses.




"The fruits a person produces shows which side they are on." Samuelbb7

So, tell us then, which side was the thief on the cross supposed to have been since he didn't produce any good works when Christ told him "Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."?

By the way, I have heard Chuck Swindall's sermons, he's an Arminian pretending to be a Calvinist. But let me ask you, can an elect lose his salvation?
---christan on 1/6/14




Steven, you should repent of your false teachings. Genuine believers, born of God are never lost. You quoted (Rev. 2:2-6) but avoided (v.2:7). It says,
"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God" Now who are the overcomers?
"For whoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcome the world, even our faith" (1 John 5:4).
"Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believed that Jesus is the Son of God" Steven, you do not have an ear to hear.
All those born of God are overcomers. So you are completely wrong.
---Mark_V. on 1/6/14


\\What's with this Rome and other past events falling away? It's written that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.\\

Especially is this talking about Easeangelicals.

\\Although the Spirit of God has been poured out throughout the world today, who is listening?\\

You're sure not. That's for certain.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 1/6/14


*****************



Cliff: "Jerry, There's nothing in scripture to indicate that the law including the ten commandments were meant for any other people but the Israelites."

You need to study your Bible more.

Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

There were no Israelites in the time of Abraham. Further, the text indicates that God's commandments, statutes, and laws were in existence before Abraham.

Cain was guilty because he broke one of the Ten Commandments.

*****************
---jerry6593 on 1/6/14


This statement made by you wreaks of works, just like the freewill doctrine. You judge a sinner by his works as to whether he's saved or not, talk about being judgmental. Don't you believe Paul when he wrote, Romans 11:6
christan on 1/3/14

Dear Christian first the word should be reeks. So neither of us is perfect.

No. The fruits a person produces shows which side they are on. Unless John is lying.
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. Also Read Romans 6. As well as Matthew 25.

Chuck Swindall a Calvinist agrees with me.

Works are the result of being in CHRIST. They are the fruit of being filled with the HOLY SPIRIT. Galatians 5
---Samuelbb7 on 1/5/14


Christian, You are supposed to be like sheep (according to the word) but you're like a lemming, follow the masses wherever!
Something like mass hysteria, follow the group who do your thinking for you.
You can't tell a single book from 66 individuals , because you don't want to ,your buddies pat you on the back and say "good job Christian" right?
---1st_cliff on 1/5/14




What's with this Rome and other past events falling away? It's written that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.

Although the Spirit of God has been poured out throughout the world today, who is listening? Is it not apparent that the seeds of the sower are falling by the wayside, upon stoney places, and among thorns?

Jesus said: "Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works, or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent." But who today is repenting?
---Steveng on 1/5/14


"Yes. Can you prove it isn't?" Cluny

How about you proving it was referring to your theory of "Rome fell away from Orthodoxy and the Protestant and Easeangelical churches".

At best Paul wrote "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

Where you got the idea that the falling away was "from Orthodoxy" when in verse 1 & 2, Paul referred to "by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ... as that the day of Christ is at hand"?

Christ is the head of the church. As for you, your Orthodoxy precedes Christ. Wow!
---christan on 1/5/14


Jerry, There's nothing in scripture to indicate that the law including the ten commandments were meant for any other people but the Israelites.
It was given to set them apart from all other nations, and lead them to Christ!
It is not divine "law" for 2014!
Since Jesus ransomed us we are simply under grace!
---1st_cliff on 1/5/14


***************

Cluny:"The Great Falling Away is when Rome fell away from Orthodoxy and the Protestant and Easeangelical [sic] churches fell even further."

No, it occurred before that when pseudo-Orthodoxy fell away from two original, Orthodox doctrines believed by Jesus and 100% of His followers. Namely, the literal 6-day Creation and the Seventh-day Sabbath.

********************

---jerry6593 on 1/5/14


\\Is this what Paul was prophesying in 2 Thessalonians 2 and is telling us what you're saying to be the interpretation to that chapter? Seriously? Wow!\\

Yes. Can you prove it isn't?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 1/5/14


"The Great Falling Away is when Rome fell away from Orthodoxy and the Protestant and Easeangelical churches fell even further." Cluny

Is this what Paul was prophesying in 2 Thessalonians 2 and is telling us what you're saying to be the interpretation to that chapter? Seriously? Wow!


"You rely on Paul's word and prophecy" 1stCliff

And O, most importantly I rely of the Holy Spirit as promised by Christ in John 16:13, which Paul confirms "But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God." 1 Corinthians 2:10 - o I forgot, you don't believe in Paul's writings.
---christan on 1/4/14


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The Great Falling Away is when Rome fell away from Orthodoxy and the Protestant and Easeangelical churches fell even further.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 1/4/14

From Archbishop Kallistos Ware:

There is only one Church, but there are many different ways of being related to this one Church . . All these facts must be taken into account: one cannot simply say that all non-Orthodox are outside the Church

'Such is the view of the more moderate party. But there also exists in the Orthodox Church a more rigorous group, who hold that since Orthodoxy is the Church, anyone who is not Orthodox cannot be a member of the Church . . .'

This must be the group you are from:)
---Ruben on 1/4/14


1stCliff, I have only this to say to you, if Genesis to Revelation (the 66 books of the Bible) is in doubt in your heart that "is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."

Why then do you even bother to call yourself a Christian? Or come to think of it, I haven't heard you say you're a Christian before. Well, that explains it then.

Truth be told, seems that the "faith from God" is what separates you and I from believing the 66 books as the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth.
---christan on 1/4/14


Christian, You rely on Paul's word and prophecy, can you give an example where Paul's prophecy has been fulfilled and come true?
---1st_cliff on 1/4/14


jerry6593, the salvation of the sinner (aka the elect) is predestined by God. Only the elect will receive "saving faith" from God (go read Ephesians 1 & 2).

As for 2 Thessalonians 2, Paul is telling the Christians that before the second coming of Christ, certain things must first happen. That's prophesied in verse 3, which is explicitly described in the very kind of office he will hold in verse 4. Prophesies in Scriptures confirms predestination.

As for the "falling away first" - "They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy, and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away." Luke 8:13
---christan on 1/4/14


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The Great Falling Away is when Rome fell away from Orthodoxy and the Protestant and Easeangelical churches fell even further.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 1/4/14


Samuel, when I said,
"Jesus said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you" How far can you run away from Christ? How much distance can you make, when someone will never leave you? Mark_V."
I was not off the topic as you suggested. It concerns the perseverance of those who belong to Christ, the sons of God. You see, all those who are sons of God are chasten by God. They are never lost.
"If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons, for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? (now listen to this)
But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons"
(Heb. 12:7,8).
---Mark_V. on 1/4/14


****************

christan, do you not open your eyes when you read the Bible?

Then just what, pray tell, was Paul talking about FALLING AWAY FROM if not from the faith (Christianity)?

And I thought that your predestination paradigm precluded the lost (sinners) from being given saving faith (salvation). Yet you just said "Saving FAITH is a "gift of God" and when He gives it to the sinner". So which is it? Predestination or salvation for sinners?

****************

---jerry6593 on 1/4/14


jerry6593, do you not open your eyes when you quote the Bible?

Where's the words steveng wrote "be a great falling away from the FAITH" found in 2 Thessalonians 2:3??? Faith was not even mentioned once in 2 Thessalonians 2 and that's because it was not the issue.

Again, Paul was not talking about faith but prophesying of the "son of perdition". With regards to faith, Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 3:2, "And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith."

Saving FAITH is a "gift of God" and when He gives it to the sinner, there's no way he will lose it and God will make sure of that, not the sinner.
---christan on 1/3/14


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"If a person walks in opposition to GOD and lives in hate or not caring. They are not saved." Samuelbb7

This statement made by you wreaks of works, just like the freewill doctrine. You judge a sinner by his works as to whether he's saved or not, talk about being judgmental. Don't you believe Paul when he wrote,

"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." Romans 11:6

By your confession, poor old King Solomon must be burning in Hades for he had 700 wives and 300 concubines to embarrass the meaning of adultery. And yet this saint wrote Proverbs. How's that?
---christan on 1/3/14


Romans 5:2 "By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God."
Romans 11:20 "Well, because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:..."

So then, from where would a christian fall away? A coconut tree?
2 Peter 1:10
Matthew 24:12
---Nana on 1/3/14


Dear MarkV


Jesus said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you" How far can you run away from Christ? How much distance can you make, when someone will never leave you? Mark_V.

I do not wish to get off topic here. You and I disagree on the Perseverance of the Saints. King Saul had the promises but GOD will not support rebellion. Just like he did to the angels. Jude.

If a person walks in opposition to GOD and lives in hate or not caring. They are not saved.

Can we agree on that point?
---Samuelbb7 on 1/3/14


Cluny: //Apparently you don't know the Bible as well as you think, MarkV// YES, you are right on this one. Even the meaning he has, of what he knows in the Bible is suspect. Mark_V quoted Matt.16:23 where the Lord said to Peter, "Get thee behind me Satan..." and claimed that Satan had nothing to do with what Peter said.
---Adetunji on 1/3/14


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steveng, 2 Thessalonians 2 is a prophesy by Paul of the, "son of perdition, Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." Paul was admonishing the Christians of this coming time.

The chapter does not teach, "Who is causing the christian to fall away" and that's because if you're a Christian, Christ declared, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

Your theory of faith is perverted.
---christan on 1/3/14


********************


//It's amazing what you people are discussing which is not even Scriptural. There's no such passage in the Bible that says "great falling away from the faith"! NO WHERE AT ALL!

---christan on 1/2/14 //


2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a FALLING AWAY first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,

********************

---jerry6593 on 1/3/14


Samuel, you say in the passage people have a choice once saved, that Jesus cannot sustain us. You just don't believe in the Word,
"..so that you are not lacking in any spiritual gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the Day of the Lord Jesus Christ.." (1 Cor. 1:7-9) Notice our guarantee:
"...For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and much assurance.." (1 Thess. 1:4,5).
You do not believe.
Jesus said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you" How far can you run away from Christ? How much distance can you make, when someone will never leave you?
---Mark_V. on 1/3/14


christan wrote: "It's amazing what you people are discussing which is not even Scriptural. There's no such passage in the Bible that says "great falling away from the faith"! NO WHERE AT ALL!"

You are trying to undertand the Word of God using worldly knowedge. Try learning by the Spirit and read 2 Thessalonians 2 very slowly and other chapters. Who is causing the christian to fall away? And with the problems of the world is coming to a head, Satan has only a short time left to turn the backs of man on God.
---Steveng on 1/2/14


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\\Unless you agree that the Orthodox have to go through the RCC to get saved ....\\

The Roman Church broke away from the other 4 Patriarchates (Orthodoxy).

**I am surprised at the fact that Popes who declared that the Orthodox were heretic and Anathema would merit your defense. **

Correcting wrong impressions of the Roman Catholic Church is not the same thing as defending them.

The main issues, such as Filioque, nobody here mentions because classical Protestantism and Easeangelicalism are infected with it.

One cannot discuss the real issues involved here in 125 words, especially when so many people here can't even understand English prose.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 1/2/14


Did not the Orthodox churches also declare that the RCC was Anathema? Was there not the Great Schism? Samuelbb7 1/1/14

I notice Cluny you missed my post. Above is part of it. Please go back and read the whole thing. Unless you agree that the Orthodox have to go through the RCC to get saved as they claim to be the only true church in this world.

Dear MarkV It is not saying GOD cannot sustain us. It is saying that GOD gives us freedom to choose. It is the difference between saying GOD forces or GOD allows choice.

In my understanding GOD allows choice and we are responsible for what we do.

Agape.
---Samuelbb7 on 1/2/14


It's amazing what you people are discussing which is not even Scriptural. There's no such passage in the Bible that says "great falling away from the faith"! NO WHERE AT ALL!
---christan on 1/2/14


\\Monk, you spoke but gave no Scripture to support what you said. Where do you get 500? and where do you get 125? And where do you get, many doubted?\\

1 Corinthians 15:6
After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once,

Acts 1:15
And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,) Ok. He was off by 5.

Matt 28:17
And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

Apparently you don't know the Bible as well as you think, MarkV
---Cluny on 1/2/14


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MarkV said: You deny Jesus can sustain a believer in Christ. You have no faith. And if you have no faith, it does not mean you had faith before but now you have fallen from the faith. You do not believe God can make you stand.

If you choose to believe that, it is up to you. You cannot read what is in my heart, you do not know my life and/or struggles. So fine--believe what you want.

The unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 1/2/14


Monk, you spoke but gave no Scripture to support what you said. Where do you get 500? and where do you get 125? And where do you get, many doubted? What are you trying to explain?
What you are claiming is that Jesus cannot sustain those He saves. But we are told,
"...So that you (believers) are not lacking in any spiritual gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, "who will sustain you to the end" guiltless in the Day of the Lord Jesus Christ. .." (1 Cor. 1"7-9).
You deny Jesus can sustain a believer in Christ. You have no faith. And if you have no faith, it does not mean you had faith before but now you have fallen from the faith. You do not believe God can make you stand.
---Mark_V. on 1/2/14


Cluny, is that the best you can do? Say I am wrong? And give no answer why I am wrong. Are you suggesting that the pope is not the head of the Catholic Church? Are you suggesting that Constantine was not the first person to be the head of the Universal Catholic Church? I say you are wrong.
In fact Jesus was replaced in many of their own traditions. They have a father who forgives sins, not Christ. Christ sacrifice on the cross was not sufficient enough to save anyone, it needs the works of man in order for them to be save. Mary became Mediator between God and man, replacing Christ. Worship is now for Mary, Jesus is a second thought.
---Mark_V. on 1/1/14


Steveng://What will cause you - personally - to fall away from the church? Remember, one must have faith to begin with before one can fall away. And for those who think they won't, think again// Your interest based on these question looks strange to me. Why are you interested in what would make someone to fall away from faith? Are you working for a group that helps people to fall away from faith?
---Adetunji on 1/1/14


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Pope ------>Vicar of Christ - Supreme headship of the Church on Earth ---------------> ( Wikipedia )
---RICHARDC on 1/1/14


Mark V said: "Falling away from the faith means people who are members of a church, which teaches the faith, and then leave, without being converted. They never had true faith. They are called apostates."

This is not correct. Falling away from the faith means just that, a believer that stops believing. Remember, when Jesus ascended into heaven there were more than 500 people, and even though they saw it, some doubted.

Ten days later only 125 were in the upper room when the Holy Spirit fell on them. What does that mean? Did they not receive the grace from God to believe that Jesus rose from the dead and ascended to heaven? Even though they had seen it with their own eyes?
---Monk_Brendan on 1/1/14


( Acts 2 v 38, Eph. 4 v 5 )

The trinity apostates Rev.17 v's 4 - 6 & those that worship the gods buddha - hindu - mohammed, other etc Don't apply.
---Lawrence on 1/1/14


Dear Cluny

I am surprised at the fact that Popes who declared that the Orthodox were heretic and Anathema would merit your defense.

A Pope may not have said the words about JESUS. But when they declared themselves the Vicar of Christ or the only representive of GOD on earth. Thus saying that only through the RCC could a person be saved that includes Orthodox Christians. They were in effect taking the place of JESUS.

According to Hebrews our High Priest is JESUS.

Did not the Orthodox churches also declare that the RCC was Anathema? Was there not the Great Schism?

True that is partially healed now. But Protestants have not forgotten history. Or at least some have not.
---Samuelbb7 on 1/1/14


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Scripture says christians should not bow down to any statue, yet in the orthodox and catholic churches they do. Now, before you go off at a tangent and say that you don't "worship" the statues, I didn't say "worship", the bible says "bow down."
---Steveng on 1/1/14


\\Universal church (Catholic Church) came to be, a Pope took the place of Jesus Christ as the Head of the Church.
---Mark_V. on 1/1/14\\

Wrong again.

**Mary changing God's diaper and suckling God on her breast is just stretching it a tad don't you think?
---1st_cliff on 1/1/14**

One of the ancient heretics said he refused to fall down and worship a baby in dirty diapers as God. (Only he didn't say, "dirty".)

But it's glory for Christians to do so.

++There are historical stories that books were piled on a table and those that fell off were not included as canon!++

What's your source for this urban legend?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 1/1/14


Cluny, what you said cannot be confirmed. You say,
"Whatever sins popes have committed, they have NEVER denied that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh, which is the spirit of Antichrist."
How could you possibly know what each pope believed in? It is not possible

( 1 John 2:18 tells us,
"Even now there are many antichrist" and (2 John 1:19) tells us, "These many antichrist "went out from us" meaning from within the visible church.
(1 John 2:26) says, "These antichrist are trying to seduce us away from Jesus Christ" and if you remember, when the Universal church (Catholic Church) came to be, a Pope took the place of Jesus Christ as the Head of the Church.
---Mark_V. on 1/1/14


Cluny, Although it's not mentioned in the bible, your explanation agrees with the Quoran that says Jesus was born fully conversant with those in the stable that night! If He was almighty God this would be possible!
Mary changing God's diaper and suckling God on her breast is just stretching it a tad don't you think?
---1st_cliff on 1/1/14


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Cluny,At the Council of Nicea 325 CE there were no Jewish scholars Just Roman bishops!
There are historical stories that books were piled on a table and those that fell off were not included as canon!
The final agreement of just what should be included in the NT was not reached for many years after.
at the Synod of Carthage397CE the 27 books were finally agreed upon.
St.Jerome and St.Augustine (both Catholic priests)were the most influential!
---1st_cliff on 1/1/14


\\Sounds familiar doesn't it, to who it's referencing?
---christan on 12/31/1\\

The Antichrist--probably a mahometan or Jew--who will be revealed at the beginning of the Tribulation.

I hope you're not so silly as to think this is talking about the Bishop of Rome. Whatever sins popes have committed, they have NEVER denied that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh, which is the spirit of Antichrist.

But it DOES sound like some of the people on here who think that Jesus is not fully God.

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 12/31/13


The statement made by the blogger of "great falling away from the faith" isn't the exact words used in the Holy Bible and neither is it in the context of faith.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition..."

Paul's prophesying a particular position in time in the following verse, "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

Sounds familiar doesn't it, to who it's referencing?
---christan on 12/31/13


In the Church I attend (a Melkite Catholic Church--look it up in Wikipedia) I know three men--brothers--whose uncle was hounded and chased down into his basement, and he was told to renounced Jesus or die! He would not renounce Jesus, so he was beheaded! May God give me the same grace if that choice is given to me.

But I do choose daily to follow my Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ, as God gives me grace to do so.
---Monk_Brendan on 12/31/13


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\\The child had no pre existence and life begins at that moment.
Christ "emptied" himself of his heavenly existence and became the seed in Mary's womb to begin life as a human!
Was this "creation"?\\

You are the one clouding the issue, 1st Cliff, but that's to be expected since you don't have spiritual discernment.

The exact genesis of Christ's human nature has not been revealed to us, save that in His human nature, He was born of a Virgin.

But He did not cease to be what He had always been--truly and fully God.

This is what Orthodoxy has always taught.

Christ is born! Glorify Him.
---Cluny on 12/31/13


I do not believe this verse is so much on a personal falling away. Where people lose their faith. But a great falling away of people in general.

I see this in two ways. Many who say they are Christians live like there is no GOD and no judgment day.

But also the number of people who state they do not believe in any god and the fact many are trying to spread atheism.

Any ideas?

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 12/31/13


Cluny, So then we need a comprehensive definition of "begotten" . Scripture indicates it to mean "sired"
When conception occurs a human being is "created" miraculously without human intervention, a child is "created" in mother's womb.
The child had no pre existence and life begins at that moment.
Christ "emptied" himself of his heavenly existence and became the seed in Mary's womb to begin life as a human!
Was this "creation"?
---1st_cliff on 12/31/13


"faith working through love" (in Galatians 5:6)

"Love never fails." (in 1 Corinthians 13:8)

"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment, because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

So, what faith are you talking about, if it can fail? How do we fail, if we are in faith working through love which cannot fail, and if we are "as He is" "in this world"? If we in His love are "as He is" "in this world" . . . can Jesus fail? If we are "as He is", can we fail?
---willie_c: on 12/31/13


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\\Cluny,The terms Essence and nature are too vague \\

Not to those who have the mind of Christ and can discern spiritual things.

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 12/30/13


\\Angels are also spirit beings having an essence or nature similar to God!\\

Angels do NOT the a nature similar to the Father because they are CREATED, not begotten.

Go back in the corner, and you don't get Christmas pie.

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 12/30/13


If one can fall away from faith, it's clearly obvious that the faith of yours to begin with, most definitely is not the "...faith ...it is the gift of God."

For Scriptures assures us, "God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord." 1 Corinthians 1:9, "Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it." 1 Thessalonians 5:24, "But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil." 2 Thessalonians 3:3

All giving credence to "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith".

Basically, if you were to fall away, you were the author of your own faith and not Christ.
---christan on 12/30/13


Cluny,The terms Essence and nature are too vague ,homoousios was invented to bamboozle lay people into thinking that God and Jesus were not seperate spirit beings .Angels are also spirit beings having an essence or nature similar to God!
I am of the same nature (flesh) as my father but I am not him!
---1st_cliff on 12/30/13


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\\Cluny, I believe what the scripture says that Jesus is God's Son not the Father, remember Jn 3 16 God "gave" His "only begotten Son",He did not give Himself!
That's the REAL Jesus!\\

Nobody but you said the Son is the Father.

The Council of Nicaea certainly did not.

What the Council and Christians teach--which you apparently deny--is that the Son is of the same NATURE or ESSENCE as the Father.

Too bad you don't believe in the real Jesus.

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 12/30/13


Steven, falling away from the faith does not mean a believer loses his salvation once he is saved by grace through faith.
Falling away from the faith means people who are members of a church, which teaches the faith, and then leave, without being converted. They never had true faith. They are called apostates. There is members in churches today that are not save, they belong to the faith, but do not have faith. They've never been saved. Those that leave were never one of us.
"They went out from us, but they were not of us, for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us, but they went out that they might be manifest, that none of them were of us"
Why do you preach a false doctrine Steven?
---Mark_V. on 12/30/13


Cluny, I believe what the scripture says that Jesus is God's Son not the Father, remember Jn 3 16 God "gave" His "only begotten Son",He did not give Himself!
That's the REAL Jesus!
---1st_cliff on 12/30/13


steveng, there is a great falling away but I think that scripture applies to the generations past present and future. it especially can apply to America today. It can also apply personally. I know I have experienced falling away. I have been sick for so long and when I miss even one sunday I can tell the difference how I feel. I know I am a born again believer and at times I feel like God is no where around me, even tho I know He is.
---shira4368 on 12/30/13


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\\They railroaded Arius, stomped on the truth and convinced the followers to accept the lie and it has persisted to this day!\\

So, you don't believe that the Son is of the same nature as the Father, but is created.

In other words, you don't believe in the REAL Jesus, but a false one. Therefore you don't believe in Jesus at all, and are still in your sins.

Repent!

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 12/29/13


Cluny, Yes I am quite knowledgeable of what happened in 325 CE .
They railroaded Arius, stomped on the truth and convinced the followers to accept the lie and it has persisted to this day!
It's like scripture says "satan appears as an angel of light"
---1st_cliff on 12/29/13


\\. What the Bible instructs us to do is to be watching and be ready for HIS coming.\\

Precisely.

And there is neither pre- nor mid- trip rapture.

**The great falling away took place in 325 CE. **

1st Cliff, do you have ANY idea what took place at the Council of Nicea?

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 12/29/13


wow, cluny, you must be one of a kind. does God tell you things about other believers so you can advise them? you sure carry a lot of clout but deep inside my heart we all know you don't know half of what you think you do. I have a son in law just like you. he thinks he knows everything about everything.
---shira4368 on 12/29/13


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Cluny...Not going to argue pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib with you. What the Bible instructs us to do is to be watching and be ready for HIS coming. Are you ready?
---KarenD on 12/29/13


The great falling away took place in 325 CE. When they left the truth to follow the lie!
Led by the priest of Sol himself Constantine!
Paganism has permeated every facet of Christendom.
When water is added to wine (to stretch it) it is no longer palatable wine!
---1st_cliff on 12/29/13


\\"The church" will always be here until the Lord returns for us.\\

That won't be till the END of the Tribulation.

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 12/28/13


Since I already know what it was like to have faith in the world (hopeless) and how hopeful faith in the Lord is, then why would I fall away from the faith? I believe that in a few years "the church" will be in homes and there will be no preachers in church buildings that are teaching the truth. "The church" will always be here until the Lord returns for us.
---KarenD on 12/28/13


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\\Basically I already believe most people don't know God and only pretend that they do. \\

You're one of those, Caleb.

God gave me cues to tell you that.

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 12/28/13


"Make every effort to enter the narrow gate, for wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction." Basically I already believe most people don't know God and only pretend that they do. It says, "Those that are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God." And, well, I don't know about you, but the more I follow God the less I see other people really, honestly, doing the same thing. I don't usually find people who are living by the Spirit, walking with God personally, following His cues in their lives. They do good things but not alot of them actually do what God wants them to do because none of them are actually asking, "God, what do you want me to do today?" (Read Matthew 21:28-44)
---Caleb on 12/28/13


\\And for those who think they won't, think again.\\

As Jesus said, "By your own words you will be justified, and by your own words you will be condemned."

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 12/28/13


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