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World Flooded With Water

Do you believe verse 1:2 of Genesis describes an earth flooded with water that is greater than Noah's flood?

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 ---lionel on 1/17/14
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I do not want to argue about this. Yes GOD created the Universe and this earth.

Geologist and most Scientist teach that the Earth is 4.5 billion years old. If you do a little research or even listen to the recent Debate with Bill Nye. You can hear a lot of their evidence.

Many in the Church used to be dogmatic about the Sun circled the earth. I do not intend to make that mistake.

Agape to all.
---Samuelbb7 on 2/19/14


Warwick, I realize even amount those who believe in a Gap Theory, there are different views as to whether the earth was inhabited at that time.

I am also taking other things in mind that I just posted. SIN entered the universe long before the creation of man. SIN was allowed into the Garden,

In the NEW Heaven and earth SIN and DEATH will never enter in.

So The New Creation was God's for thought even before the creation of man and Jesus was for-ordained to take away SIN, not only now but that which happened from the beginning, long before 6000 years ago.

You look at only a few facts, but are not looking at the WHOLE plan of redemption

Next
---kathr4453 on 2/19/14


Warwick, please meditate on these verses.

Romans 8:19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that[h] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God

Who is US! Angels are not children of God, WE ARE.
---kathr4453 on 2/19/14


Warwick, there is an awesome CD called Ordinary Planet, showing earth anything but ordinary, put together by none other than SCIENTISTS. Wow, should they be trusted?

You say the Gap Theory was invented recently, however the Young Earth Theory was invented not so very long ago itself.

if man created after the image of God existed on an earth before Adam & Eve, we would not even be needed. They would have been the redeemed ones.
---kathr4453 on 2/19/14


Kath, you write "we have proof it is older" than c6,000yrs. Please spell out such proof, in detail.

You ignore that Scripture says nothing about a gap.

Formless and empty: formless simply means without shape-a perfect description as it was indeed initially formless, being covered in water. Genesis 1:9,10 shows when its shape appeared.

It was also obviously empty as no plant or creature had yet been made. Again read on in Genesis.

You also ignore that your belief undermines the gospel which says death was the result of Adam's sin while the fossil record is full of death of man and animal.

Who is correct? Man or God?
---Warwick on 2/19/14




Kath you wrote "even the Jews knew /know there is no beginning." Genesis, both in the underlying Hebrew and English etc says-In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth... Therefore Genesis ch. 1 is talking about all things which were created in six-days, not about God's beginning, He who has no beginning. Have you ever carefully read through the chapter or have you imposed man's opinions upon what is written? Have you looked at it in the light of Exodus 20:11 "for in six days the Lord made the havens and the earth and all that is in them." Either He did or He didn't. Either He wrote the truth with His finger, or He didn't? Why will you not believe Him?
---Warwick on 2/19/14


Yes even the unfallen ones. We are joint heirs with Christ! seated with Christ in heavenly places! HIS body. And just as Eve was taken from the side of Adam, the Church is taken from the side of Christ. We enter through the veil, that is to say His Flesh. We are the begotten sons of God through Jesus Christ. Not even an angel can claim that place. And to which angel did God ever say, sit here at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool. When did this enmity begin? When was hell created. In the first 6 days? After? Or before?

All this God knew and planned before the foundation of the world. The plan to redeem man, NOT ANGELS, is what this great mystery laid out in Ephesians and elsewhere is about.
---kathr4453 on 2/19/14


In the new heaven and earth, Revelation says, there will be no sun or moon, for The Lord will be the light of it. God is light, and in Him is no darkness.

"Darkness" in scripture, is that which is without God. " I will throw you into outter
darkness" things done in darkness and on and on.

Now let's take water. Now exactly what day was water created? Or does it appear it was already on the scene in Genesis 1 when the Spirit of The Lord moved upon it? Yet some say NOTHING existed prior to 6000 years ago?

And if some say God created darkness, rather than darkness being the absence of light, when then was darkness created?

Much to ponder here. The BEGINNING did not begin 6000 years ago.
---kathr4453 on 2/19/14


---Warwick on 2/16/14
Thanks for your input. I dont see a conflict.
'and' being used throughout does not negate what joseph stated about Gen 1:1 standing on its own, a complete statement.
A complete creation.
Interesting that 'and' is translated in Gen 1:1
H853 - 'eth
Whereas, according to biblehub vs 2 the phrase "and the earth" is translated erets with no given translation for the single word 'and'. Additionally, several versions of the bible do not use ''and' at the beginning of verse 2, rather stating "The earth", and some versions use "now" at the beginning of the verse. Also, some version uses ''then'' at the beginning of vs 3 rather than 'and'
...more...
---chria9396 on 2/19/14


Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof,

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

We see here that the Angles were already in existence before the earth.

These Are the generationS... Is not referring to the 6 days of creation. Is this a typo?
Next
---kathr4453 on 2/18/14




Warwick, through out history, even before Christianity, the understanding of the gap Theory has always been held by the Jewish community.

God had His Throne and was worshipped by his Holy Angles long before the earth was first created. Are you saying God sat in the dark until the heavens and earth were created only 6000 years ago.

In the beginning.....yet even the Jews knew /know there is no beginning, God has no BEGINNING or ending. So in the beginning what, when? A PERFECT God does not create something without form and void with DARKNESS upon it. There was no DARKNESS in the beginning until darkness entered, just as sin entered bringing darkness AGAIN, and the LIGHT of Jesus came into this dark world.

More later.
---kathr4453 on 2/18/14


"The gap theory existed long before Darwin or any evolution theory! but held by Christians for eons."
-This is a lie
"satan rebelled, and was already a fallen creature before Adam and Eve were created"
-Was he?
"WHY in the end the church will one day have a place in heaven ABOVE the angels."
-Even the "unfallen" ones?
So Satan's actions put a curse on the whole lot?
"...the earth is only 6000 years old when we have proof it is older." -kathr4453 on 2/18/14
You have no proof.
You are relying on the wisdom of man over God.
Trying to add fantasy between vv1+2 will get you nowhere.
---micha9344 on 2/18/14


Kath the Gap Theory was invented by Thomas Chalmers in the 19th century. It was in the foot notes of the Scofield Reference Bible in 1917. It was aimed at fitting the preexisting long-ages/evolutionary idea into Scripture.

The gap is 'fored' into Genesis 1: there is no mention of it there, nor anywhere in Scripture. It was created to defend Scripture against the idea that the fossil record catalogues eons of time before Adam. Had they more trusted God than man they would have believed the deep sedimentary layers containing fossils were created during the world-wide flood of Noah's time.

In reality it undermines Scripture (placing death before sin contrary to the gospel) and does not fit with the long-ages view.
---Warwick on 2/18/14


//---kathr4453 on 2/18/14//

Another good point -

bless you sister,

Shalom
---char on 2/18/14


//-micha9344 on 2/17/14//
Praise Elohyim if ones desire is to act only on Elohyims Word - He confirms.
//-Applying this to a theoretical "gap" between vv1+2[...]-micha9344 on 2/17/14//

The Hebrew mind does not.

//[...]Hebrew mind expresses cycles of events. The concept of time being circular not linear- within YHVH timeless existence---char on 2/16/14//


//---kathr4453 on 2/17/14//

Love this - Good point Kathr,

Bereshyth- Hebrew meaning Inbeginning or a beginning
In the Hebrew mind there is no beginning to end -A generation is time from one birth to the birth of the next generation- circular.

The very word for 'generation' in Hebrew is [Dr] defined - orDeR.

Shalom
---char on 2/18/14


//---joseph on 2/16/14//

Thank you brother for the scriptures you have provided.

Elohyim wisdom flows out of Him (like a river) His strength trembles the earth-

He exist ([olam]- beyond the horizon)

I will Praise Him in[yirah] - with you.

Zech 4:6 "Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the Lord of hosts."

1Jn5(all)
7There are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood, and these three agree. If we receive human testimony, the testimony of God is greater, for this is the testimony of God that he has testified to his Son.

God bless you,
Shalom
---char on 2/18/14


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The gap theory existed long before Darwin or any evolution theory! but held by Christians for eons. So those who may reject the creationists new earth theory are not ALL evolutionists.

This doctrine is of the belief that this verse points to a time when satan rebelled, and was already a fallen creature before Adam and Eve were created AND WHY only Adam and Eve were created after the image of God, and WHY in the end the church will one day have a place in heaven ABOVE the angels.

Without that understanding, you may be limiting your own understanding, and God's desire to take you to a deeper understanding of something far more important than trying to prove the earth is only 6000 years old when we have proof it is older.
---kathr4453 on 2/18/14


Joseph, I asked you,regarding your belief in an earlier creation-"Can you supply any Scripture to support your idea?" How about an answer?

You say all points of view are "valid and indispensable." I am not sure what you mean but I believe our opinions are rather valueless in comparison to the only Truth, that which comes from God. What do you mean by your comments? I would like an answer!

You also write about truth that resides within us but no such thing exists as God says we are devious and wicked. Please explain.
---Warwick on 2/17/14


"And that truth is not found within us, as the Eastern Mystics teach. Rather it is found ONLY in the unerring Word of God."
True. That Truth is the Spirit of our Lord Jesus, The Christ, The Word. And The Spirit of Truth is, within us.
---joseph on 2/17/14


Jer 4:23 I beheld the earth...
24 I beheld the mountains...
25 I beheld ...no man ...birds ...fled...
26 I beheld ...fruitful place ...wilderness ...cities ...broken down at the presence of the LORD...
27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate, yet will I not make a full end.
28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.
-Sounds more like a future judgment, than a past one.
-Applying this to a theoretical "gap" between vv1+2 is nigh on heretical.
-I do enjoy char's understanding of the Hebrew, but I believe his application here leaves much to be desired.
---micha9344 on 2/17/14


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"These are (Plural) the generationS of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,"
Gen 2:4

"These are(Plural) the generations of Noah---Gen 6:9

The two verses above clarify twice in the same sentences the words THESE ARE not this is, and "generations" with an S is defined as a line of descent. The Bible says there will be yet another generation of the heavens and Earth at the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ:
This explains the Gap Theory. Darkness is the absence of light. Darkness FELL UPON. Yet God is LIGHT and in Him is no darkness. Something dreadful happened between Genesis 1:1 and verse 2.
---kathr4453 on 2/17/14


joseph: "All points of view are valid and indispensable, If we are to find and embrace truth within ourselves."

I disagree. While everyone is entitled to his own opinion and is granted the FREE WILL (That was for MarkV.) to believe it, there many, many varieties of error, but only ONE truth. And that truth is not found within us, as the Eastern Mystics teach. Rather it is found ONLY in the unerring Word of God.



---jerry6593 on 2/17/14


Char blessing to you as well. Thank you for clarifying and connecting the points I have attempted to make. Your additional insight on this matter, as well as all others perplexing matters is much appreciated. " Iron sharpens Iron". I thank the Father for you, Chria, Samuel, MarkV, and other's, to many to mention by name with the word limit:o) We are here by Father's grace to aid in one another's growth in Him. To Him be all the glory. Warwick, thank you for the challenge, and keeping me on my toes:o) Always feel free to correct any perceived error coming from me. All points of view are valid and indispensable, If we are to find and embrace truth within ourselves.
---joseph on 2/16/14


//joseph on 2/13/14// Bless you.

Flood: the action - mixing, the function is dysfunctional (chaos), state of being is babel(confusion)

2 Pet3:5 "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:"
2Pet 3:6 "Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:"
Jer 4:25 "I beheld, and, lo,

(there was no man),

and all the birds of the heavens were fled."
[...]
23 "I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void, and the heavens, and they had no light."

This overflow event:(there was no man)
(and the heavens,[...]they had no light.)
---char on 2/16/14


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You're a blessing, Brother Joseph

Hebrew expresses events within circles

*Adam(blood) from adamah - flesh/clay forms/molds - being the [tselem] shadow/representation of our original state.
*Original state of being(when created from nothing)is[ruach] spirit

Elohyim knows/sees - breaths into clay forms/molds -

Calls: World/ion into World/ion.
Door - functions as entering and existing - swing back and forth
One is called - enters/into - drawn once in

Ps 104:30 "Thou sendest forth Thy Spirit, they are (created[bara]): And Thou renewest the face of the earth

Born - From Above - All souls belong to Elohyim ...
Gen2:7, Ecc12:7, Jer1:4-5, Eph1:3-5,Rom9:11-23

Shalom
---char on 2/16/14


//joseph on 2/13/14//
-jerry6593 on 2/14/14//
Blessing brothers, Understood.
I to do not believe in evolution.

I see the purpose and plan of deliverance Job38:7,Rev12:4

Instructions(Torah)Language based on - state of being, action and function.
Bereshyth:beginnings or a beginning - not the Beginning.
asah (worked) stg6213 six days - fattening/filling then separating/dividing
- nothing is left unsorted [al,la]

Hebrew mind expresses cycles of events. The concept of time being circular not linear- within YHVH timeless existence
Elohyim gives a parallel and dual witness. The invisible through the visible -
Image/shadow of the original source which is spirit - witnessed/represented in the tangible.
---char on 2/16/14


//joseph on 2/13/14// Bless you.

But with the Event 'Overflow of water' in Noahs flood,

*There Was man - "Noah and His family"

*No mention of darkness indicating during the overflow the heavens remained blackened

2 Peter 2:5 "And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly,"

We are children of "Light"
Looking at all prophesy of 'Light'

Not Lunar.
---char on 2/16/14


Lionel - No, this is not describing a flood at all but tells us what the earth was like before God began His work of Creation, making the earth habitable to various life forms.
---Rita_H on 2/16/14


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Chria, from what I have read Genesis in Hebrew is one very long sentence joined by 'and' about 90 times. It is therefore the unfolding story of one creation. This is in accord with what is written elsewhere. For example reflecting Genesis 1:1 ("In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth") Exodus 20:8-11 reads "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth." Genesis 2:2 tells us God finished His creation in six days. Put all of this in context and you can see there is only one meaning-that the heavens and the earth, "and all that is in them" (Exodus 20:11) was made in 6 days. Exodus 20:8,9 shows they were ordinary 24hr days.
---Warwick on 2/16/14


---joseph on 2/9/14

"Chri9396 I noticed that no one attempted to address this question. The answer is it cannot be, this was not a creation, but rather a bringing forth of that which previously existed. "AFTER ITS KIND" can have only one meaning, there was a pre-existing kind, species, sort, or breed."
Thanks. Your reply is same as I thought when written.

Also this really is of interest:
"Consider this, the statement was "Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind", as opposed to let the living creature I created bringing forth more living creatures after his kind." (addition of bold type mine).
---chria9396 on 2/15/14


"As the prof. said - a word taken out of context is a pretext!":oD)))Ok.
---joseph on 2/15/14


Joseph I have been in the wilds without internet access.

As regards Genesis 1:1 (an earlier creation) you are entitled to believe whatever you will. However the test for Christians is whether the belief is supported by Scripture. Can you supply any Scripture to support your idea?

Also as regarding "formless and void" we need to follow the normal rule of context, as words are defined by context. The context is this: in its created state the earth was without form, being covered with water. Its form appeared when God commanded "let the dry ground appear" vs9. It was also empty because it yet had no vegetation, animals or humans upon it. As the prof. said - a word taken out of context is a pretext!
---Warwick on 2/15/14


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Samuel: "So there was the six days of creation of this earth only not the entire universe."

That's not what the Bible says:

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth


---jerry6593 on 2/15/14


"...GOD gave Moses a vision that he wrote down to get more accurate."-Samuelbb7 on 2/14/14
Exo 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend...
Num 12:6-8 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, [I] the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, [and] will speak unto him in a dream. My servant Moses [is] not so, who [is] faithful in all mine house. With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches...
Samuel, may I ask why you believe to be a lapse between Gen 1:1 and 2?
It is one complete thought. Notice the word "and" beginning v2?
I also must remind people that the original text had no chapters nor verses.
---michael.bradley on 2/14/14


Thank everyone for continuing to discuss this so nicely. I cannot say beyond a doubt that any of you are wrong. This is just mine and a number of others take on the events.

First there was nothing then GOD created the universe. At some time latter in six days he reformed the earth and placed humans and all animals on it.

I believe this was passed down as a legend but GOD gave Moses a vision that he wrote down to get more accurate.

The earth in a waste form had existed and was covered with water. Then GOD made it habitable and to Moses the sun and stars appeared. So Moses wrote as he saw in vision. So there was the six days of creation of this earth only not the entire universe.

Agape to all.
---Samuelbb7 on 2/14/14


char: Thanks for referencing Heb 11:3 in connection with the Genesis Creation. Most people can't get their mind around the FACT that the creation of all matter was a supernatural event. The atheist creation myth of Big Bang - Nebular Hypothesis - Evolution also begins with matter already present, and is then reformed by natural forces. But, God not only created matter, but He sustains it as well:

Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Even the Gap theory posits a pre-existent earth. But God Himself writes:

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth



---jerry6593 on 2/14/14


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Blessings to you Char. Thank you.
"Gen 1:2 "And the earth [hayah] without form, and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep." And the earth
([Hayah stgs 1961 Became...without form and void..."

Exactly Char. Also consider, as I am sure you have, that the same word "Tohuw", meaning "without form or formless" is used in Isa. 45:18 Created not "in vain or formless" >Gen 1:2 "without form" and Jer 4:23 "without form".
The word translated "void" in both Gen 1:2 and Jer. 4:23 is the word "bohuw" meaning emptiness, or waste. Bohuw used in conjunction with Tohuw has the connotation, from their root, of lying in waste and chaotic.
---joseph on 2/13/14


\\That between verse 1 which deals with the Creation of everything and verse two which is talking about the earth only.\\

How about later verses that talk about the sun, moon, and stars?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/13/14


In the Beginning the Universe was created from nothing. Scientist call it the Big Bang and are still trying to figure out where it came from.

But the Bible says:
Gen 1:2

And the earth was without form, and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

For there to be a deep and water there had to be a base planet there. What I understand is sometime called the Genesis gap theory. That between verse 1 which deals with the Creation of everything and verse two which is talking about the earth only. This is just my understanding.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 2/13/14


Blessings Joseph,love your post.
Continued'

Hebrew is function based (concrete) and event orientated - told in cycles -
Words for time and space are used for direction.
Elohyim who Exist Timeless(Jn1:1) spoke out His Word from within Him.
His very Word framed the Worlds/ions.
His very Word that was to be (written down)by letter - was designed by Elohyim from within Him.Ex31:18

Gen1:1 bereshyt bar Elohyim et[...]
bereshyt-Inbeginnings
bar-filled
et- Aleph Tav

Aleph to Tav defined is - beginning to end.
Word Spoken framed the Worlds/ions

Heb11:3Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
---char on 2/11/14


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/joseph on 2/9/14/ Blessings-

He created it not in vain

Isa 45:18, "For thus saith the Lord That created the heavens, God Himself That formed the earth and made it, He hath established it (He created it not in vain, He formed it to be inhabited:) "I am the Lord, and there is none else."

Became:[Hayah]stgs 1961

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man (stgs 1961[Hayah]-Became) a living soul.
Gen 19:26 She[Hayah-Became] a pillar of salt
Gen 1:2 "And the earth [hayah] without form, and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep."
And the earth

([Hayah stgs 1961 Became...without form and void...
---char on 2/10/14


The word "void" in Gen 1:2 is the Hebrew, "bohuw" and means either,
1. An undistinguishable ruin, or,
2. to be empty/emptiness/void.

To break up/come to nought/cause to cease/to be dissolved/cause to cease/break asunder, comes from the Hebrew word "parar."

Had there been a former earth created the word "Parar" would have been used in Gen 1:2 and not "Bohuw". It is not! So, simply there was not an earlier earth.
---Elder on 2/11/14


I believe Genesis 1:2 describes an earth that was without form and void!
---trey on 2/10/14


I believe this verse refers to the Earth before the flood. When there was no dry land yet to be flooded. We do not know how many thousands of years the earth was in this state before GOD formed the earth more as we see it now.

Dogs are related to wolves so we must recognize that Kind is a loose term. So not all the different types of dogs were created by GOD. They are due to breeding by humans. Of course evolutionists say that we have 100's of different types of dogs prove evolution. But so far they still get dogs not a new genus.
---Samuelbb7 on 2/10/14


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Thanks all. "There was no evolution from monkey to man." Elder, I would never imply that there was.
"...all creation would produce only the same kind. Humans bear humans, elephants bear elephants etc." Rita_H, with this I agree.
"Genesis 1:1 shows there was nothing before God created the heavens and the earth." Warwick with this I also agree. What I do not agree with is that this creation was a part of the "evening and morning" of "the first day" of this dispensation of time. I believe that "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" stands on its own as a completed statement, and that the period added by the translators is valid.
---joseph on 2/9/14


Joseph - people don't speak exactly the same way that they did centuries ago and words change usage. My guess is that God created the first OF IT'S KIND and all that followed would be AFTER IT'S KIND. I think that what is meant is that all creation would produce only the same kind. Humans bear humans, elephants bear elephants etc.
---Rita_H on 2/9/14


Joseph, Genesis 1:1 shows there was nothing before God created the heavens and the earth, on day 1.

"After its kind" doesn't refer to some previous unmentioned creation but to the fact that God created all living things to reproduce according to their kind i.e dogs to produce dogs, birds to produce birds and so on. This is in effect an anti-evolution statement as we do see the various kinds reproducing themselves with progeny of the same kind.

The New Living Translation spells it out well Genesis 1:24 "Then God said, "Let the earth produce every sort of animal, each producing offspring of the same kind..."
---Warwick on 2/9/14


"...if this is the first creation of each kind, then how can it be AFTER ITS KIND if that is an accurate understanding." The answer is it cannot be, this was not a creation, but rather a bringing forth of that which previously existed."
joseph

That is not so joseph. After its kind simply means that each species brought forth after its kind. There was no evolution from monkey to man.

Monkeys beget monkeys, fish beget fish none of them or anything else turns into any thing else.

Yea Cluny I understand the Butterfly. Just like I understand babies turning into adults.... (In some cases.)
---Elder on 2/9/14


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A question from the "God created the animals blog" now closed" "However, if this is the first creation of each kind, then how can it be AFTER ITS KIND if that is an accurate understanding." Chri9396 I noticed that no one attempted to address this question. The answer is it cannot be, this was not a creation, but rather a bringing forth of that which previously existed. "AFTER ITS KIND" can have only one meaning, there was a pre-existing kind, species, sort, or breed. Consider this, the statement was "Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind", as opposed to let the living creature I created bringing forth more living creatures after his kind.
---joseph on 2/9/14


"What a blessing you are."
Thank you so much Char, same to you. Blessing is always my intent, not all will receive it as such, but then all I can do is share what I have been given on the level that the Father has brought me to. Thank you a well for sharing your insight. Be blessed.
---joseph on 2/1/14


//"To create is to bring forth something 'tangible' from nothing 'tangible'."

---joseph on 1/23/14//

What a blessing you are.


Image: Shadow [tselem] stgs 6754 , a shadow is a representation of an original source.
Rev 5:6(all)[...]Lamb as it had been slain[...]

Hebrew perspective:
'event oriented' expressed 'in cycles' and defined with the same words for directions.
[qedem] stgs 6924 "the direction of the rising sun" - "past" - literally "East"

To the ancient Hebrew mind 'the past' is something one can see, therefore- 'the past' is "in-front of them".
---char on 1/28/14


//joseph on 1/23/14// Bless you brother.

Elohyim declares cycles of events from the (Shadow of origin)

Image: Shadow [tselem] stgs 6754 , shadow represent the original source.
Rev 5:6
Bere-shyt:
Bara defined - to fatten or to fill

Elohyim alone is the beginning and ending - Origin - of all things within- Him.

Gen 3:24
So He drove the man out, and at the EAST of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which (turned every direction) to guard the way to the tree of life.

{the flaming sword which (turned every direction)}
qedem and aharit - past and future...

(to guard --- the way - to - the tree of life)



Glory to God,
Shalom
---char on 1/28/14


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Warwick, thanks for the exchange. You are a blessing to this community, and I admire your steadfastness concerning your beliefs. I am sure Father speaks with you, through the Spirit of His Word, as He does me, why our understanding of this differs, I do not know. What I do know is that Father gives us what we need. We, as individual beings, will probably debate something though out eternity:o) It is all good:o) These type of questions and exchanges are simply things to keep us mentally and spiritually focused on The Father and His Christ. Be blessed. P.S. Correction to previous post, this line should read "To create is to bring forth something 'tangible' from nothing 'tangible'."
---joseph on 1/23/14


micha, those were very good applications to the passages in (Gen. 6:1,2).
---Mark_V. on 1/24/14


Gen 6:1-2 was a sight displeasing to God. It is another example the Bible uses for judgment and our need for the Saviour, which is the Good News.
It also is a picture of being unequally yoked, believer and unbeliever.
---micha9344 on 1/23/14


I do not believe Genesis 6:1,2 has any part to play in the gospel, therefore unimportant. Warwick

Warwick
I totally agree, but these verses have stumped many over the years. When they are stumped, they turn to those who write bible commentaries, which in some cases, as in this one, read like the funny papers.
---David on 1/23/14


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David, Adam was the first man's name while applied to Jesus it isn't a name but refers to what He came to do, to overturn the curse, the result of Adams sin. See 1 Corinthians 15:21,22 and Romans 5:12, 17.

Luke 3:38 does not call Adam the Son of God, but the son of God a great difference as Adam was only human whilst Jesus, was Son of Man, born of woman, a human. And also the uncreated Son of God therefore God eternal.

I do not believe Genesis 6:1,2 has any part to play in the gospel, therefore unimportant. I would venture to say this is not about the sons of God being aliens or angels.
---Warwick on 1/22/14


David, do you believe Jesus is called Adam in the same sense and context Adam was? Warwick on 1/21/14

Warwick
No, not to the point of saying they were one and the same. However, they were both the first of there kind, the seed of those who would be called the Sons of God.

Many people don't catch what is written in (Luke 3:38), where we are told Adam was the Son of God.
Since you know this, do you believe those sons of God written about in (Genesis 6:1 & 2), were the direct descendants of Adam and Eve?
If not, where did these sons of God come from?
---David on 1/22/14


The earth was covered by water before man came forth. Gods spirit moved over the face of the deep Water is deep ground would just be earth. God separated the waters a called forth ground.
---BRYAN on 1/21/14


David, do you believe Jesus is called Adam in the same sense and context Adam was?

BTW Adam is called the son of God in Luke 3:38 he being the offspring of God by creation. However Adam is not to be equated with Jesus the Son of God who had a body prepared for Him (Hebrews 10:5) He who was God manifest in the flesh 1 Timothy 3:16.
---Warwick on 1/21/14


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"I ask this, because it could further illustrate the Sons of God in (Genesis 6:1-2), were the descendants of the Adam created in the Garden of Eden."-David on 1/21/14
Whether this be true or not may be good for another thread. The point being Mark 10:6 directly referenced Adam and Eve. It did not need to be stated due to its context and reference to Gen 1 and 2.
And even that is a sidetrack of the posted question, which looks quite similar to the Gap theory.
---micha9344 on 1/21/14


Warwick
Jesus is also called Adam in (1 Corinthians 15:45).
Do you believe the Adam created in the Garden of Eden was a Son of God too?

I ask this, because it could further illustrate the Sons of God in (Genesis 6:1-2), were the descendants of the Adam created in the Garden of Eden.
---David on 1/21/14


David, 1 Corinthians 15:45 calls the first man created Adam.

In Mark 10:5 Jesus says 'But at the beginning of creation "God made them male and female"' quoting from Genesis 1:27. I think it certain "them" is "the first man Adam", so named by God, and his wife who Adam named Eve-"the mother of all living" Genesis 3:20.
---Warwick on 1/20/14


Joseph, Exodus 20:11 covers the 6-day creation as per Genesis 1:1-1:31 "there was evening and there was morning-the sixth day." This is the first heaven and earth which is to be destroyed at the end of time-Rev. 21:1. There can be nothing before the first and no mention of "renewal" here!

Psalm 104:6 is either referring to the waters which initially covered the just created earth (Genesis ch.1) or the waters of Noahs flood which later also covered the earth. I cannot see how verse 30 supports your case.

Two Peter ch.3 does speak of future and past but that past (vs. 5,6) speaks of the cataclysmic destruction of the world by the waters of Noahs flood.
---Warwick on 1/20/14


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I believe the earth at the time of Genesis was totally covered with water. Not as a flood but because GOD had not yet brought forth dry land.

Scientist are still trying to figure out where all the water came from.
---Samuelbb7 on 1/20/14


You may be correct. Please do not view my post as arguing your beliefs, simply as an explanation of my own. 2 Peter and Jer. 4 speaks both of the past and the future. The past destruction of the earth by water, and the future destruction of the earth by fire. Destroyed for the same reason, the blatant rebellion of those He created, due to the deception and influence of Satan. To create is to bring forth something from nothing. To make is to form from existing materials. Gen. 1:1 documents the creation of both Heaven and Earth. For he spake, and it was done, he commanded, and it stood fast. Psa. 33:6-9. Exd 20:11 documents the renewal of both Heaven and Earth. When The Father renewed the Face or surface of the Earth by His Spirit. Psa 104:30
---joseph on 1/20/14


Also Jesus, the Creator said Adam was made at Creations one and only beginning Mark 10:6. ---Warwick on 1/20/14

Warwick
Which Bible version are you reading from? I don't see Adams name mentioned in (Mark:6).
---David on 1/20/14


Joseph, Jeremiah is describing Israel/Jerusalem after the Babylonian destruction as if the day of the Lord (2 Peter 3:10) had come, likening Israel's appearance to the uncompleted earths "formless and empty" (Genesis 1:2) before the dry land appeared or life had been created.

There was nothing.
Then God created the heavens.
And the earth formless- covered in water.
And empty because no vegetation or creature had yet been created.

We must remember God has said "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them,..." Exodus 20:11. This covers the 6 days from Genesis 1:1 to 31.

Also Jesus, the Creator said Adam was made at Creations one and only beginning Mark 10:6.
---Warwick on 1/20/14


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"There is no biblical support for a Gen 1:2 flood."
The flood did not occur in Gen. 1:2. That was the result of a previous flood. "I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void, and the heavens, and they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger. For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate, yet will I not make a full end." Jer 4:23-28. Gen. 1:3-31 documents a restoration, not a creation.
---joseph on 1/19/14


Joseph, if you have been following what Michael has written for a long as I have you will know God's word is always his authority. He is obviously not led astray by man's constantly changing stories. From God's word He has conclusively shown that 2 Peter 3:5-7 is referring to Noah's flood, as 2 Peter 2:5 shows.

I cannot follow how you can connect 2 Peter 3:5-7 to Genesis 1:2 where no flood is even hinted at and where the whole creation was finished in 6 ordinary earth-rotation days! It must have been a very quick flood!
---Warwick on 1/19/14


2Pet 2:5 And spared not the old world(kosmos), but saved Noah the eighth [person], a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world(kosmos) of the ungodly,
2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world (kosmos) that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
Peter is referring to the flood of Noah's day.
There is no biblical support for a Gen 1:2 flood.
---Micha9344 on 1/19/14


"Do you believe verse 1:2 of Genesis describes an earth flooded with water that is greater than Noah's flood?" Yes
"For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens [that] were of old, and the earth, [was] standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the 'world' (Kosmos) that then was, being overflowed with water, 'perished'- (Strongs G#622 apollymi to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put to an end, to ruin, to render useless). But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men." 2Pe 3:5,6,-7
---joseph on 1/18/14


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God flooded the world with water first. That killed all mankind except a few. Then he gave the small people his word. Then the greatest flood of all is now, He has flooded the world with his word. Now that is a flood for sure that wash away your sin or wash you away.
---BRYAN on 1/18/14


Lionel there is no mention of a flood in Genesis 1:2 or of such a flood anywhere else in Scripture. So I guess it is a non-starter.

This verse is simply part of God's description of what He created on day one, the earth created covered with water, therefore formless. It did not take form until God caused "dry ground" to appear on day three. It was also created empty as no vegetation or living creatures had yet been created.

I suppose we could consider the initial water-covered earth flooded but it was not something negative and destructive like the universal flood of Noah's day, just a stage in God's "very good" creation of all there is.
---Warwick on 1/17/14


Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void, and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
I don't see where it says or even implies "flood" here.
I do see a status report of what the Earth looked like when God created it from v1.
It was without form, as liquid is, so God formed it, vv6-10.
It was empty, void, so God filled it, vv11-12,20-28.
It was dark, so God gave it light, vv3-5,14-18.
To be "flooded" implies dryness prior and the dry land did not appear until v1:9.
---micha9344 on 1/17/14


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