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Presbyterian Predestination

A Presbyterian I know well says we are predestined to be saved but when asked if all others are predestined to be lost says "No, it is their fault if lost because they refused to accept Christ as Saviour".

That makes no sense to me.
Explanations appreciated.

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 ---Rita_H on 1/22/14
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Why was the talent taken from the slacker and given to whom yielded the larger increase?
Matthew 25:28 "Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents."
Why is it that ONLY the workers of iniquity get put out?
Luke 13:27 "But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are, depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity."

In both intances, is it not man's actions the sole cause which convict and condemn the man?
A man who works no iniquity works righteousness. Matthew 25:37 "Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?"
---Nana on 1/29/14


Shira, no, you were born again and then you accepted Christ! Without faith we know it is impossible to please. God. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit. We are given the measure of faith when we are translated into the Kingdom of God's dear Son (regenerated). When we are born again, quickened by His Spirit, then we are able to act, accept Christ, etc.
---trey on 1/29/14


Mark Eaton , Because ALL are give a Chance -------

IF all are given a chance , That Man by some action can get himself saved , That means by some Works on his part, And the Bible makes it very clear, Not by works of righteousness can a man be saved , How do you get around That !
---RichardC on 1/29/14


Trey "No where in scripture will you ever find where action precedes life. We are always first born again and then we act."

I am not disagreeing or aguing with you or anyone else on this but some scripture verses to go with the above sentence from you would be greatly appreciated - not just by me but, I am sure, by other readers here. Thank you.
---Rita_H on 1/29/14


"If every human being were not a child of God, then he must, of necessity, be a child of another god. Do you indeed believe that there is another creator?" jerry6593

Is there even another god to begin with? How does Romans 9:8 tell you that there is a "two-god theory"? Was Paul implying that there's another god apart from the One and Almighty God according to the Scriptures?

It's obvious that the god you claim to believe in is most definitely not the same God Paul and I subscribe to. That is, a God that loves and hate as written in Romans 9. Your god does not say, "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

Whereas, that's the God Paul and I worship, period.
---christan on 1/29/14




Dear MarkV

Not all humanity is saved because GOD does not force them to be saved. TULIP teaches GOD forces some people to be saved and hates the rest.

But GOD loves everyone and can offer all a chance to be saved. He draws by love not force. Christian has even stated that some people who do not follow GOD will be saved in their hate because GOD has chosen them and then does not change them. So Christian has those not born again saved. This is taught by many who believe TULIP.

In my previous post I put a parable and some questions. Tell me what you think.
---Samuelbb7 on 1/29/14


Mark E, You say,
"God has made the way of salvation for every man, thru Jesus. Jesus died to save all of humanity." you are saying that God died to save all humanity, then why is not all humanity saved? What you are saying is that God failed, man defeated His mission by saying, no. If He left it up to each individual as you say, then He did not die for every individual. He died for those who would choose Him then.
What was the mission of Jesus? "For the Son of Man is come to seek and to save that which was lost" He actually saves, remember what it says?
"Thou shall call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins" Not try, but actually save them.
---Mark_V. on 1/29/14


Michael e, I could not find what you stated in the Bible,
"God has put each man on the spot, by offering justification and eternal life as a free gift, through Christ, who died for our sins clearly stated in Rom. 6:23"
You have added to the passages a different meaning. Here is the passage,
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Rom. 6:23).
Nothing there about God putting people on the spot by offering anything. What the passage is teaching is that we were slaves of sin "but now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness and the end, everlasting life." (Rom. 6:22)
---Mark_V. on 1/29/14


christen: "is everyone His child?"

Can't you see how far your godless theory of predestination has taken you? If every human being were not a child of God, then he must, of necessity, be a child of another god. Do you indeed believe that there is another creator?

You then cite Romans 9:8 as proof of your two-god theory. But, the context of Romans 9 is Israelites vs. Gentiles, not "the elect" vs. children of a lesser god. In this context, God's true children are those that keep His Law. That leaves YOU out, as you are a Law breaker, and thus one of the "unchosen".

You accusation of my being a LIAR and an HYPOCRITE is unfounded an unchristlike. Apologize!


---jerry6593 on 1/29/14


trey, please tell me how you are saved? when I was saved I accepted Christ so that makes me born again before any action. you must be born to live, whether it is spiritual or naturally.
---shira4368 on 1/29/14




God has put each man on the spot, by offering justification and eternal life as a free gift, through Christ, who died for our sins clearly stated in Rom. 6:23
Now the question is: Will you you cant just do nothing about a free gift which God offers for your acceptance now (II Cor. 6:2). If you don't accept it, you reject it.
God purposely puts us on the spot in this matter, for the consequences are great. As John 3:35,36: sates
Unbelievers aren't condemned only because they have sinned, but because they have rejected Gods grace and salvation through Christ, who died to save them. As it's written in John 3:18:
Which will you do, accept or reject Him and the free gift of salvation It's your choice
---michael_e on 1/28/14


Peter said: "But not all accept the evidence."

Not all accepted God's gift of salvation.

It's a free gift for every person in the worls to accept or deny. It's a free gift to all of mankind. Each person has a choice to accept the gift or reject it.

Genesis 4:7
Psalm 19:14
Psalm 119:108
Acts 10:35
Acts 20:31
Romans 14:18
2 Corinthians 8:12,17
1 Timothy 1:15
2 Timothy 2:19
Hebrews 11:35
James 1:14
1 Peter 2:20
1 Peter 4:10
---Steveng on 1/28/14


Mark_Eaton on 1/28/14 "He left it up to each person to choose His way, or choose their own way."

Mark, it is true that there is enough evidence for God's work, and so everyone has the evidence.

But not all accept the evidence.

In the past I wondered why God did not predestine ALL to be saved. But now I can only say that God has a righteous reason, but I do not know it!
---Peter on 1/28/14


jerry6593, you said, "that God considers some of His children" - is everyone His child?Romans 9:8 declares, "That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God". What contradiction!

Secondly, "created for no other purpose but to torture in fire", this is Romans 9:21,22 for people like you, "Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction."

You're what Christ would call a HYPOCRITE and A LIAR.
---christan on 1/28/14


what you are saying is He has to save every sinful men in order to be righteous, and that is not true.
---Mark_V. on 1/26/14

Sorry to take so long answering, I have been ill the last few days.

God has made the way of salvation for every man, thru Jesus. Jesus died to save all of humanity.

God is just and loving by providing to all mankind a way to be reconciled to Himself. He left it up to each person to choose His way, or choose their own way.

No one will be able to say on the Day of Judgment "you never gave me a chance" because ALL are given a chance.
---Mark_Eaton on 1/28/14


Parable. JESUS is sitting and a group of women come to have Him bless their children. The Disciples tell them to go away. But JESUS says no. Let that one in and that other one. But the rest of them are just pottery prepared for the ovens and are of no value.

This is what TULIP says the Bible should say. Yes we are all from clay and GOD created us. But all humans were created in the image of GOD who is love.
1Pe 1:17

And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

GOD has the ability and the power to give everyone a choice. Unless you teach that GOD cannot do that? Do you teach GOD cannot give us a choice?
---Samuelbb7 on 1/28/14


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Jerry, just because you do not believe God has a right to choose whom He wills, you don't have to call Him a monster. You say,
"I can't conceive of anyone praying "Our Father which art in heaven" to such a cruel monster as you claim to worship."
Monster you call Him. God is the Potter, we are nothing but clay, and He forms one for honor and the other for dishonor. Who are you to call the Potter a monster?
"But indeed O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to Him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this? Does not the Potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?' (Rom. 20,21).
---Mark_V. on 1/28/14


RitaH, our salvation is not based on our acceptance of Christ as Savior. It is based on Christ making us accepted in the beloved. No where in scripture will you ever find where action precedes life. We are always first born again and then we act.
---trey on 1/27/14


And God offers them a gift of salvation, getting out of prison free, right? And the person has a choice to accept or reject the offer right? Would that not mean that the lost with more wisdom, who accepts the offer is smarter then the one who doesn't? That would mean that only the lost with wisdom and knowledge who are smart would be saved. That is what I am hearing. The smart ones get saved, the others don't. Which would mean only smart people are going to be in heaven. Is that possible?
Mark_V.

Those with more heavenly wisdom for the world says they are foolish. So those who are willing to submit to GOD will say yes. But Tulip teaches people have no choice that GOD has made them go to hell. Which is worse?
---Samuelbb7 on 1/27/14


Mark V - I cannot answer someone who shouts into my face. I switched off after reading 'right' for the third time. If you would care to rephrase what you wished to say please try again but your style does not work on me.
---Rita_H on 1/27/14


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RichardC: "Repent - Baptized , Repenting and water baptism , Are Good Works a Believer does,"

These are NOT works. Do an online KJV bible search for the following words: "one another," "each other," "comfort," "encourag," and "exhort." But these are only the ones we treat each other as christians.

The other part is feeding the poor, clothing the naked, helping the fatherless, and quenching the thirst of non-believers. Faith without these works is dead faith. Contrary what other christians believe, these works are what happens AFTER we are saved and is not a condition of salvation.
---Steveng on 1/27/14


All people are sinners. Preachers, teachers, apostles, and christians are to go out into the world and preach the gospel - the soon to come Kingdom of God - to as many people who are willing to listen, repent, and be baptised. If people are already destined to hell then what's the purpose of Jesus coming to earth? of preachers? of teachers? of prophets? of christians going out into the world to help save sinners? Jesus came not to preach to the already saved, but to all the other sinners - to save them from the second death.

There are two resurrections - the first for the believers and the second for the non-believers. The non-believers will be judged according to their works. Blessed are those that rise in the first resurrection.
---Steveng on 1/27/14


// ---Rita_H on 1/26/14
I agree - It (salvation) is a gift but a gift must be accepted for it to be of any use but I don't believe the gift is withheld from some, it is that SOME reject it.//

totally correct, some reject through ignorance. We were all ignorant at one time.
1 Tim 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
---michael_e on 1/27/14


Cluny, thanks for correcting me, I should have mentioned that Jesus Christ was not under the curse since He was incarnated and without sin.
But all others are under the curse, they are condemned already, heading to hell. Everyone who does not believe in Jesus Christ, is condemned already. No amount of words, or works, can release that person from condemnation. Only God can draw that condemned person to Himself and make a new creation out of that person.
"But God who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ by grace we have been saved"
---Mark_V. on 1/27/14


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Rita, after hearing your comment and others, I would like you to contemplate this question,
We know that everyone lost is condemned already otherwise they would not need salvation right? They are under the curse heading to hell right?
And God offers them a gift of salvation, getting out of prison free, right? And the person has a choice to accept or reject the offer right? Would that not mean that the lost with more wisdom, who accepts the offer is smarter then the one who doesn't? That would mean that only the lost with wisdom and knowledge who are smart would be saved. That is what I am hearing. The smart ones get saved, the others don't. Which would mean only smart people are going to be in heaven. Is that possible?
---Mark_V. on 1/27/14


Blogger: "God picks individuals to be in his own family and co-siblings with Christ for his own reasons, those who are non-select are simply expendable chaff."

You, christan and MarkV believe that God considers some of His children as "expendable chaff", created for no other purpose but to torture in fire. What a monster your god is! Do you also torture your children?

This kind of thinking stems from your belief in the atheistic creation account of Charles Darwin rather than the loving account of our ancestry from God in the Bible.

I can't conceive of anyone praying "Our Father which art in heaven" to such a cruel monster as you claim to worship.



---jerry6593 on 1/27/14


Steven , Those who Believe in Predestination ,

The Word Predestination is in the Bible Four times,

Repent - Baptized , Repenting and water baptism , Are Good Works a Believer does, And a person can not be saved by there own works of Righteousness, - Titus 3:5 - Galatians 2:16 - When someone is born-again - SpirItual Baptism - This is what saves , the act of God working in there life - there sins have been cover- 1 John 3:9 They are a new creature,

Your coming from the side of - your own Obedience, Good works are saving you ,

The Predestination side is coming from - Totally by Grace - Doing Good Works does not save the person, It's a part of faith , God conforms the person,
---RichardC on 1/26/14


Michael e "Christ's sacrifice will cleanse ONLY those who believe (Paul's gospel 1 Cor 15:1-4) that He died for our sins and rose again, but the sacrifice is available to all people for the sins of all people."

I agree - It (salvation) is a gift but a gift must be accepted for it to be of any use but I don't believe the gift is withheld from some, it is that SOME reject it.
---Rita_H on 1/26/14


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steven and Michael, amen to you both. everyword you said is absolutely in context to the real meaning of predestination. thanks.
---shira4368 on 1/26/14


The perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ's shed blood was sufficient to cover all sins of all people.
confirmed in 2 Cor 5:14-15, "... if one (Jesus Christ) died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again." Also 1 Tim 2:5-6 For the shed blood of Jesus Christ to be applied, one must have faith. Phil 3:8-9 "... I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,.." Christ's sacrifice will cleanse ONLY those who believe (Paul's gospel 1 Cor 15:1-4) that He died for our sins and rose again, but the sacrifice is available to all people for the sins of all people.
---michael_e on 1/25/14


Mark_V. said: "All descendants of Adam are born under the curse."

Cluny said: "According to Luke's genealogy, Jesus is a descendant of Adam. Try again."

Old Testament prophets said that there is to be one to come who will break the curse.
---Steveng on 1/25/14


It's so obvious that many of you have not taken up my suggestion to simply use the bible as its own reference concerning the words "chose", "choose". Do an online KJV bible search for the following words: "chose", "choose", "desire", "exhort", "fav", "elect".

As for being saved:

Jesus is THE savior, but christians are able to save others from hell.

And for those of you who believe in predestination:

you are a lazy bunch for if you do not give a wicked person no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life, the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood will God require at your hand.
---Steveng on 1/25/14


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Mark E, you asked,
" How will God be shown to be Righteous and Just to those He does not choose?"
What you are saying is, if God does not choose all sinful men He is not righteous.
Before anyone is born God knows they are going to sin against Him. And God decides to save some and not all, you are saying He is obligated to save everyone otherwise He is not righteous. God sets the laws. Everyone is guilty, no one deserves mercy. No one. The unchosen are guilty just as much as those chosen. Why should God be obligated to those others? God answers to no one. He can do whatsoever He wants to do with His creation. what you are saying is He has to save every sinful men in order to be righteous, and that is not true.
---Mark_V. on 1/26/14


Cluny, I though you knew Jesus was without sin. I was not speaking of Jesus. You knew that already. I was speaking of all human being who broke the law.
All descendants accept for Christ are under the curse.
"Curse is everyone that continued not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them" (Gal. 3:10). When human beings are born physically, they are under the law.
"For by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified" (Rom. 3:20).
Every person who is under the law is bound by infinite obligations to obey it, without the slightest deviation from it throughout the whole of his existence. When men transgress it, they incurre it' penalty and fall under the curse.
---Mark_V. on 1/26/14


"free will does not mean we think we can go over God" shira

O really? But doesn't your freewill say that the man can choose to accept or reject God's only Son out of his own freewill and not depend on God for His Almighty grace?

Now isn't that a definition of "going over God" in His will to want to save the sinner, that the man can choose to "reject" Him (not that there's any truth in this doctrine whatsoever as confirmed in 1 Peter 2:8)?

You standby freewill and you don't even know what it means at all. Talk about being stupid! Stand in front of your mirror and say it again.
---christan on 1/26/14


Christian, how many times does one have to tell you for you to understand? free will does not mean we think we can go over God. that is the most stupid thing you have ever said. no one on this blog respects you or any of your predestination friends and co-harts.
---shira4368 on 1/25/14


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Romans 10:13
Acts 2:21
1 Peter 2:24
John 3:16
John 10:28
John 6:47
John 11: 25-26
---Rita_H on 1/25/14


\\All descendants of Adam are born under the curse. \\

According to Luke's genealogy, Jesus is a descendant of Adam.

Try again.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 1/25/14


"I tried sharing the message of Gods irresistible grace, but it seems some people are able to resist it." michael_e

Really? And you got that from the Scripture? Didn't you read 1 Peter 2:8? Peter explicitly said, "being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed".

To say that the fallen man can resist God's grace in salvation is to say that God has no power over the creature He created. Now how absurd is that? Paul declared, "for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth".

That's why the freewill doctrine is perverted, for it declares that the sinner can overpower the Creator. Could Paul overpower Christ when He came calling for him? IMPOSSIBLE!
---christan on 1/25/14


Rita,
"You say "The one's not elected or chosen, are condemned because they have broken the laws of God and have rebelled against God."
When the elect of God are born physically, they are born in sin, condemned just like everyone else, they need to be born of the Spirit in order to become children of God. When God elected them to salvation before the foundation of the world didn't mean they were saved already. They need to be born physically, then Spiritually.
All descendants of Adam are born under the curse. The curse under which sinners have fallen, cannot be removed nor the transgressor released until full satisfaction has been made. Such satisfaction the sinner himself is utterly unable to render (Rom. 3:20).
---Mark_V. on 1/25/14


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I am only able to accept presedstination as a view that is accepted. I do not feign to explain how this was taken to be the best view, mostly because I cannot explain it myself. It seems reasonable, but not something that I can explain.
---Peter on 1/24/14


RichardC: "God not capable of saving every body if he wishes? Am Sorry, but that's crazy - God can't make everybody born again ? put a new spirit in everybody in the world , Give everybody a new heart, if he so desires ! - make everybody A new creature in Christ !"

God desires ALL his creation to repent and be baptised. He doesn't want anyone to go to hell (die a second death). God has already poured out his spirit thoughout the world, but few are taking advantage of God's grace to come back to him. God wants each person to follow him, but will not force that person to follow. Each person must decide for himself to follow God.
---Steveng on 1/25/14


No one knows if they are the elect unless they study books on Calvinism. Then everybody thinks they are.
I tried sharing the message of Gods irresistible grace, but it seems some people are able to resist it. Calvin would suggest that Gods grace must not be given to those people.
this is the system created by Calvins election. A system without hope to the predestined sinner, without grace to those who need it most, without personal responsibility to the saint, and without the preaching of the cross for salvation.
Biblical election concerns God choosing Christ to die for the sins responsible to mans account. God chose to create man. Man chose to reject God. God chose to die for man. It's now mans responsibility to choose.
---michael_e on 1/24/14


\\chris science\\

We see how well read you are.

Christian Science do not believe that Jesus is God Incarnate, hence they are not trinitarians.

Doesn't it bother you to pop off about things of which you know nothing?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 1/24/14


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"God would not have predestined someone to sin and break His laws. That would not be the action of a God of Love." Rita H

"For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all." Romans 11:32, "And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed." 1 Peter 2:8 - explicitly predestination.

No one's arguing the truth that God indeed is love. However, to say that God loves everyone He created would be a lie. For He declared, "As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." Everyone? I think not.
---christan on 1/24/14


Mark Eaton , calls the entire world to repentance ,

Now come the question is repentance / obedience, is this why a person is saved , A Person can not be saved by there own righteousness - Titus 3:5 - Galatians 2:16 -

2 Timothy 2:9 - Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus Before The World Began ,
---RichardC on 1/24/14


\\Rita, let me clear something, God has elected some to be saved, which means He did not elect all. The one's not elected or chosen, are condemned because they have broken the laws of God and have rebelled against God\\

Have you been elected to be saved, MarkV?

Why or why not?

How do you know?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 1/24/14


Mark Eaton, I agree with you.

Mark V I do not agree with you.

You say "The one's not elected or chosen, are condemned because they have broken the laws of God and have rebelled against God." That is NOT the same as God having 'predestined' them to hell. They did not sin or break the law before they were created did they?. God would not have predestined someone to sin and break His laws. That would not be the action of a God of Love.

You are going round in circles on this subject just as the person referred to in my question does.
---Rita_H on 1/24/14


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Nana, you have failed miserably to understand the following Scripture, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:10

The verses you quoted in Romans 2:10,11, Matthew 7:23, Matthew 25:45,46 are action specific and not choice specific. Meaning, a reprobate can never ever do anything to please God. Whereas the elect will always please God. And you know what stands between the reprobate and the elect?

"For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God." - yes, "FAITH", and this is gift from God.
---christan on 1/24/14


Rita, let me clear something, God has elected some to be saved, which means He did not elect all. The one's not elected or chosen, are condemned because they have broken the laws of God and have rebelled against God. (Romans 1:18-32) tells us why the wrath of God is on them. Now we can say that the elect also broke the laws of God and rebelled against God, but God, because of His love and mercy drew some to Himself of those going to hell, and made them alive together with Christ. He did not do that to all. What people don't like to hear is, why God chose some and not all. That it isn't fair. The answer is, God is not obligated to sinful men.
That's why we are told, He is the Potter and we are the lump of clay. He molds us the way He wants.
---Mark_V. on 1/24/14


Mark 16 v 16, Acts 2 v 38, The Church of The Living God.

The author of the trinity 2nd.Cor.11 v 14, Rev. 17 v's 4 - 6 the roman cath - church. Her offspring churches & not in correct order, cath - luth - presby - aog - naz - 7th day advent - cog - metho - chris science - mormans - episco etc trin - churches.
---Lawrence on 1/24/14


God's desire is for everyone in the whole world to be saved.
---Steveng on 1/23/14

I agree with this post.

For the predestination crowd, please answer me this one question: How will God be shown to be Righteous and Just to those He does not choose?

For myself, the answer is clear. "Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it"

God calls the entire world to repentance and reconciliation. He gives everyone a chance to come. Only the few choose His salvation.
---Mark_Eaton on 1/24/14


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Steveng : God desire is for everyone in the Whole world to be save ?

God not capable of saving every body if he wishes? Am Sorry, but that's crazy - God can't make everybody born again ? put a new spirit in everybody in the world , Give everybody a new heart, if he so desires ! - make everybody A new creature in Christ !

John 17:9 - I pray for them, I pray not for the World, but for them which thou hast given me: for they are thine,
---RichardC on 1/23/14


My comment on 23rd was in response to Lidia's of 22nd, she said 'they don't believe in hell either!'

I DO believe in HELL and know that the presbyterian to whom I refer does also but does not accept that, if one is predestined to Heaven, others must be predestined to hell and says that they still deserve Hell because they did not accept Christ. That is what makes no sense to me. That is what we keep going round in circles about. He cannot understand why "I don't 'get it'."

All I am trying to say, from then onwards, is that anyone not believing in Hell must believe that those not going to Heaven are anihilated. This is not my belief but it is the only logical conclusion I can draw about the beliefs of such people.
---Rita_H on 1/24/14


Steven, you have no clue what you are talking about. You say,
"Anyone can be a christian,"
So what you are saying is that anyone who choses Christ can be a Christian. Suggesting those who don't were not smart enough as you. so I guess been smart gets you saved. Shear nonsense.
If you are heading to hell, guilty and condemned already, you suggest that person can change his own course all by himself if he so wishes. From death to life, all by himself. Sorry, but it is not up to you, it is up to God. All you deserve is death. Instead of going on line, you should read the Bible.
---Mark_V. on 1/24/14


Samuel, after the reformation of the Church all protestant churches taught the Sovereignty of God. The election of God, eternal death, where the worm does not die. It was not until years after that many denominations introduce the free will doctrine they followed before the reformation, that was taught by the RCC. Right now that same old teaching is alive and well because everyone loves it, to have the right of salvation over God. And now many teach there is no eternal death in hell. But they are wrong. They will wish the punishment to end, but it won't.
---Mark_V. on 1/24/14


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Romans 2:5_11...

Romans 2:10_11 "But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
For there is no respect of persons with God."


Matthew 7:23 "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

Matthew 25:45_46 "Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Not only for what a man does but also for what he fails to do!
---Nana on 1/24/14


Samuelbb7, where does it even say in the Bible that God chooses someone because of what they have done? Haven't you read what Paul wrote in Romans 9:11 with regards to God choosing Jacob and rejecting Esau?

"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth." - it's explicit that His election is an unconditional election.

"The other point I disagree with is about hell lasting for all eternity." - "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" Matthew 25:41 - know the meaning of "everlasting"?
---christan on 1/23/14


God's desire is for everyone in the whole world to be saved.

When a non-christian becomes a christian that christian becomes part of the elect.

Anyone can be a christian, but God chooses certain christians whose faith is strong to accomplish certain tasks that weak christians cannot perform.

As for the meaning of "chose" and "choose" simply use the bible as its own reference. Do an online KJV bible search for the following words: "chose", "choose", "desire", "fav", "elect".
---Steveng on 1/23/14


Rita, here is what I got from what you said,
"however, NOT believing in Hell would make it easier (for these people) to accept that others are predestined to NOT be saved - just anihilated."
Here you were giving your opinion when you said (for this people) talking about those who believe in predestination. Then you said "just anhilated" giving the impression that they believe in annihilation.
I just want to make it clear they do believe in eternal judgment. That was all. Thank you.

Samuel, your problem is that you are stuck with the tulip in your hand. Or may I say, in your mind, and every time you answer, you try to answer against the tulip not Scripture.
---Mark_V. on 1/23/14


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Mark V please read my post again - which you have misunderstood.

I think that, if you do so a few times, you will realise what I WAS actually saying.
---Rita_H on 1/23/14


Actually MarkV most Protestants teach that GOD sought us and pursues us. Which means that draws all men to JESUS who said that He would draw all men to him. So your biblical statement about Romans 3 is correct and we agree with you on that.

Where we disagree is that GOD is a respecter of persons and only chooses some people.

The other point I disagree with is about hell lasting for all eternity.

I believe that hell will exist and in its fires the wicked will die the second death. But that Eternal life is not promised to the wicked. That only the saved will live forever. Remember the wages of sin is death.
---Samuelbb7 on 1/23/14


\\NOT believing in Hell would make it easier (for these people) to accept that others are predestined to NOT be saved - just anihilated.
---Rita_H on 1/23/14\\

Non sequituur.

There are several other alternatives here, which will not interest you.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 1/23/14


Rita, to correct you, those who believe in Predestination believe in hell, they do not believe in annihilation, but eternal death separated from God.
The gospel says, all who are born are under the curse of God. They have been found guilty already. No one can escape the path they are heading, and that is to hell. Without a supernatural act of God they continue their path. No matter how much everyone hates to hear it, it's the gospel Truth. God set the rules,
Those preaching free will, believe they are free to chose Christ if they so want, yet were told no one lost seeks after God.
"There is none who understand, There is none who seek after God" (Rom. 3:11) But all of you insist they do, contrary to the Word of God.
---Mark_V. on 1/23/14


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Nana and Brian, thank you very much for your input here, very helpful. Lidia, I have never heard this person say that they don't believe in Hell, maybe they are not consistent on this, however, NOT believing in Hell would make it easier (for these people) to accept that others are predestined to NOT be saved - just anihilated.
---Rita_H on 1/23/14


\\Cluny, the person goes round in circles and we get nowhere with this.\\

Then why waste your time trying to understand a statement that the very speaker apparently did not?

\\ Your last sentence was not appreciated one little bit.\\

Too bad. I don't say things to be appreciated. I say things to get people to think--a frequently fruitless task here.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 1/22/14


B9211 : Your explanation certainly simplifies religion!
Neither bible, preaching, churches denominations etc mean anything.
One is destined to be saved or lost at birth.
Why is there a "Presbyterian" church?
Is it just to announce to the world this nonsensical belief?
---1st_cliff on 1/22/14


Hello,Sis.Rita,was at Presbyterian church and we really did NOT study much,.they mostly talk a little like this predistination( don't make sense) to me.They do not believe in Hell,either! We had prayer hardly none.

They do help alot in the community and political stuff,Not much Bible..15 min. NOT saying they ALL like that
( God help) but No, we did not get too,much Bible,nor real.prayer.

Love of Jesus!
---Lidia4796 on 1/22/14


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Blogger wrote, "YHWH God selected every person...prior starting the creation process billions of years ago."

Would you care to explain where you read in the Bible that God started the creation process billions of years ago. For the life of me I can't see such a statement anywhere in God's Word. But maybe, just maybe, I've overlooked a coded message I can't read.
---Marc on 1/22/14


Cluny, the person goes round in circles and we get nowhere with this. Your last sentence was not appreciated one little bit. You really should stop assuming things of others.

Darlene, I feel exactly as you do on this subject.

Blogger 9211 - where does 2 Peter 3:9 fit into this then?

If we are all predestined to either be saved or lost what is the point in witnessing, encouraging people to attend church, read their bibles etc? If predestined to be saved won't they just all know to do these things anyway?

What about sin, are we predestined to sin? I think not. I do believe in God's foreknowledge of all things but that is not predestination.
---Rita_H on 1/22/14


If you have become a believer in Christ Jesus. Who was the one who selected you? Who is the one who called you? Who is the one who gave you his all? Who. See the point here we are all call by Jesus there is not one of us who was to not call by Jesus those who hear answered the call. Our job is to pray for those who have trouble hearing this. Cause there is a god of this world who BLINDS their eyes of the unbelievers We are to pray that their eyes be open. So stop with the believing them to hell and start believing and doing as Jesus said,"Pray that their eyes be opened to the truth of the Gospel".
---BRYAN on 1/22/14


John 17:20 "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word..."
Future believers that is! Even of those Christ refered to in John 17:9, He said "For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me, and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me."
The word is given, faith is born. Paul puts it as, "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent?...."
---Nana on 1/22/14


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As an Elder in the Presbyterian_(USA) I will clarify the answer. YHWH God selected every person he would give his irresistible grace to prior starting the creation process billions of years ago. Free Will means nothing you have no choice in your salvation it is strictly up to YHWH God. God picks individuals to be in his own family and co-siblings with Christ for his own reasons, those who are non-select are simply expendable chaff. Read carefully John chapter 17 Jesus was not concerned with all the people in the world rather his only concern was for those that YHWH had given him and those are the only ones his crucifixion redeemed. Saying a sinners prayer means nothing as well as any other prayer some makes for their personal salvation.
---Blogger9211 on 1/22/14


Rita H as I see it what was predestinated was that Jesus would die and make a way for there to be forgiveness of sin. It was every persons ability to repent and turn from their sinful ways and have a relationship with God. It was not that all people as individuals are either saved or lost already. Every one has the equal right to accept God and whether they accept or reject is their choice not God's preordered plan. Remember God created man for fellowship with him,he doesn't need or want forced followers,he wants those who want and need Him and take joy in the fellowship they have with God. People who love Him more than the world and themselves.
---Darlene_1 on 1/22/14


Wouldn't it be better to ask your Presbyterian friend to explain his views?

He will know more what he meant than anyone here.

Or did you simply want to hang him out to dry?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 1/22/14


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