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When Was The Beginning

When was " IN THE BEGINNING" . In the beginning was the Word and the word was with God and the Word was God. Is IN THE BEGINNING Only 6000 years ago as some want to insist.

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 ---kathr4453 on 3/1/14
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\\Central to Ambrose is the virginity of Mary and her role as Mother of God.\\

And who is Jesus, if not God Incarnate?

From where did He get His human nature, if not from the Virgin Mary?

Don't forget that inspired by the Holy Spirit, her aged cousin St. Elizabeth called her "Mother of my Lord," in effect, "Mother of YHVH." And Who else is Lord besides God?

And can you give a quote where St. Ambrose was a universalist?

BTW, he never wrote a bllk called The powerful Mariology of Ambrose of Milan.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/10/14


"The earth is one of the four elements...brought into being by God, out of nothing on the first day."-John of Damascus, St. (675-749AD)
"In the beginning was the Word. What means this In the beginning was? He ranges backward over the spaces of time, centuries are left behind, ages are cancelled. Fix in your mind what date you will for this beginning, you miss the mark, for even then He, of Whom we are speaking, was. Survey the universe, note well what is written of it, In the beginning God made the heaven and the earth. This word beginning fixes the moment of creation, you can assign its date to an event which is definitely stated to have happened in the beginning."-Hilary of Poitiers, St. (300-368AD)
---micha9344 on 3/10/14


I'll be glad to Micha. Where does this nonsense talk come from anyway. I don't care if it means the Holy Spirit was Surfing on the waters or water skiing on the waters no such scripture exists that it means "purification of the earth" as a result of the Surfing expo. No such scripture paints such a picture, UNLESS perhaps the earth needed purification. AND that would only be because it was defiled to begin with and this was the RECREATION of the first. But again scripture STILL makes no such statement if YOU believe this was the one and only first creation of the earth.
---kathr4453 on 3/10/14


//The Spirit was borne upon the waters. And well in the beginning of creation is there set forth the figure of baptism whereby the creature had to be purified.//

I don't know what your RCC belief is concerning baptism, but Peter gives a good one concerning Noah's flood, and likes it to life out of death. Also our baptism is life out of death. So did God create a DEAD or Dead in sin earth to begin with that the Holy Spirit needed to baptize it resurrecting it a New Earth?
---kathr4453 on 3/10/14


Ambrose's writings is that he was a Christian universalist.
The powerful Mariology of Ambrose of Milan influenced contemporary Popes like Pope Damasus and Siricius and later, Pope Leo the Great. Central to Ambrose is the virginity of Mary and her role as Mother of God.

So Micha, you believe these old fossils huh?

Are there any LIVING WATERS coming up from YOU or is the only truth you know from pagan sun god worshipping Romans dressed in Drag calling themselves the CHURCH of God? Oh Please!
---kathr4453 on 3/10/14




borne: carried, drifted, rode.
As opposed to:
born: brought forth, delivered, gave birth to.
creature: animal, entity, living thing, in context- human
earth: not a creature
Could you please read the whole statement carefully before jumping to conclusions and throwing accusations?
You may now continue with another 3 or 4 post rant.
---micha9344 on 3/10/14


\\Ambrose was a student of Origen beliefs:

Origen taught such things as the pre-existence of souls, the final reconciliation of all creatures, the subordination of the Son of God to God the Father, later became controversial among Christian theologians.\\

But St. Ambrose himself neither believed nor taught these and other condemned propositions of Origen.

Try again.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/10/14


"For if any one takes good heed he will recognize in the beginning both the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. For of the Father it is written: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Of the Spirit it is said: The Spirit was borne upon the waters. And well in the beginning of creation is there set forth the figure of baptism whereby the creature had to be purified. And of the Son we read that He it is Who divided light from darkness, for there is one God the Father Who speaks, and one God the Son Who acts."-Ambrose (304-397AD)

---micha9344 on 3/10/14

Just more CRAP micha.
Why would the earth need to be purified if it was created perfect to begin with? and the Holy Spirit was NOT born upon the waters.
---kathr4453 on 3/10/14


Ambrose was a student of Origen beliefs:

Origen taught such things as the pre-existence of souls, the final reconciliation of all creatures, the subordination of the Son of God to God the Father, later became controversial among Christian theologians.
---kathr4453 on 3/10/14


Global Cooling. In the 19th century, the renowned physicist and inventor Lord Kelvin (William Thomson) was the first to point out that if the earth began in a white-hot molten state, it would have cooled to its current temperature billions of years sooner than the 4.6 billion years accepted today. Since then, old-earth advocates have pointed out that radioactive decay within the earth would greatly slow down the cooling process. Young-earth advocates respond that, even given liberal assumptions concerning the amount of heat produced by radioactive decay, the earth would still cool to its current temperature much sooner than old-earth advocates allow.


Here is the UNBIBLICAL NONSENSE argued between young earth and old earth.
---kathr4453 on 3/10/14




Warwick, answer this question you have evaded from the beginning.

Did angels exist before the foundation of the world? Did they or did they not witness God laying the foundation of the world? If you can't or won't honestly answer yes or no, the ONLY one here jawing on here is you. Do you believe Job 38 or not. Give your reason why you answer yes or no.

---kathr4453 on 3/9/14
AND your MISTAKE led you to say ungodly things....I want an apology! Not an OOOPS, my mistake.


Now answer this question and we'll see who denies scripture or not.

I KNOW WHY you refuse to answer.
---kathr4453 on 3/10/14


"For if any one takes good heed he will recognize in the beginning both the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. For of the Father it is written: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Of the Spirit it is said: The Spirit was borne upon the waters. And well in the beginning of creation is there set forth the figure of baptism whereby the creature had to be purified. And of the Son we read that He it is Who divided light from darkness, for there is one God the Father Who speaks, and one God the Son Who acts."-Ambrose (304-397AD)
---micha9344 on 3/10/14


Kath, I have never abused you, only pointed out the consequences of your nonBiblival views, and evasion. You are obviously annoyed, not because I have been abusive, (I haven't) but because I have exposed your previously hidden Biblical compromise-embarrassing for you. You hypocritically accuse me of abuse then say I have a "twisted mind."

Again-what Scripture have I denied?

I saw that you wrote "I gave you a possibility between Adam and Noah, and WHY I don't believe before Noah can be accurately carbon dated," but did not recognize this as an answer to my Fossil Record question. My mistake. I believe most of the fossils were deposited during Noahs flood. Where else would a Bible believer place them?
---Warwick on 3/10/14


---- I gave you a possibility between Adam and Noah, and WHY I don't believe before Noah can be accurately carbon dated, ---
---kathr4453 on 3/6/14

So again, Warwick saw this the first second third forth and fifth time! but lied and said he did not get an answer.

So tell us Warwick! where do You place them, before Adam or AFTER Noah?

So we have 3 options here
1)Before Adam
2)Between Adam and Noah
3)After Noah

I said #2 several times on various posts and here again on the 6th.

I believe you have other issues Warwick. And maybe one is you are not really reading anything I am saying. Or maybe your not Warwick, but someone else using that name. I don't know who you are. Maybe your Markv.
---kathr4453 on 3/9/14


And anyone who would accuse me of being Leej , or accusing Leej of using my name I have had for over 10 years here, has to be so totally irrational in their thinking to begin with. Anyone who can be so stupid as to say it, really has me wondering even more if you have any common sense to begin with.

Leej and I hardly ever agreed on anything! and he was also abusive as you are here.

I am NOT sensitive to anything you say. Just because YOUR twisted mind thought so, doesn't make it so. But your using that as an excuse for something not there to begin with, let's me know you use these words on those who disagree with you as a weapon.

I have lost ALL respect for you. Bullies should never be allowed in anyone's pulpit.
---kathr4453 on 3/9/14


We see Micha excavated that old fossil Theophilius, and surely those remains can be carbonated to 168ad or so, but what cannot be seen in those old fossil remains is TRUTH.

We also see that Warwick doesn't understand the words "between Adam and Noah" and is still asking the same ol same ol question.

God's TRUTH can never be found in dead fossils, as I have just pointed out, but can only be found in the LIVING God through Jesus Christ, who is not a word of God, or His Word, but THE WORD. 1st John chapter 1.

The only rambling here is you and Micha, Warwick. Using Theophilius gnostic pagan philosophy as Truth you endorse.
---kathr4453 on 3/9/14


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Although Theophilus cites the opening of the Gospel of St. John (1:1), he does not speak of the incarnation of the Word in the person Jesus of Nazareth. Theophilus makes no mention of the name of Jesus or use the word Christ or the phrase Son of God. There is no explicit reference to a historical person Jesus or to the concept of the atoning sacrificial death of the Son of God.

Theophilus explains the meaning of the term Christian as follows:
Someone who is anointed by the oil of God.

WOW where did such an idea come from? Not scripture.

But if he believed in a young earth....THAT is all that matters to Micha and Warwick.
---kathr4453 on 3/9/14


Warwick, answer this question you have evaded from the beginning.

Did angels exist before the foundation of the world? Did they or did they not witness God laying the foundation of the world? If you can't or won't honestly answer yes or no, the ONLY one here jawing on here is you. Do you believe Job 38 or not. Give your reason why you answer yes or no.
---kathr4453 on 3/9/14


Kath, I have been away and see you are still rambling on. What Scripture have I denied?

In non-reply to my many-times asked question you wrote "I have not place any fossil records anywhere because I don't have them in hand to place anywhere." I believe that is best described as equivocation. However by demonstrating your need to equivocate you have more than adequately answered the question.

Now I am picking upon you because you are female? Do you imagine using the name Kath proves you are female? Your style resembles that of Lee who said he was male. He wandered through a few aliases until last heard of he/she appeared as Leonia. I do think you have shown you are a little too sensitive-male or female!
---Warwick on 3/9/14


from the first day I saw Michael's name appear on these pages I have noted his consistent support of Scripture, ---
-----blablablablabla ---with your nonBiblical imaginings. ----
---Warwick on 3/5/14


If telling the truth makes me nasty, if exposing lies makes me nasty...so be it. Micha used scripture calling me foolish and a fool. I have "never" used scripture in this way to curse another, and use it as a weapon to hurt another, as I have on many occasion call that behavior demonic.

Judge not lest ye be judged. So we now see who's foot that verse really fits.

Tell us Warwick....is Sophia returning?
---kathr4453 on 3/9/14


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Just an FYI for all.....

The Bible does not teach that Sophia is the goddess of wisdom. In fact, no one by the name of Sophia is even mentioned in the Bible. While relying heavily on the book of Proverbs and verses that evangelicals point to as evidence for the Incarnation, adherents to the Sophia goddess movement are gaining numbers by the thousands as conferences are held, books are published, and, most profane of all, worship services for Sophia in the name of Jesus Christ are held each year across the United States and around the world.
---kathr4453 on 3/9/14


1 Corinthians 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness,24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Read AGAIN 2 Cor 4:6, with the above, again the ONLY wisdom and knowledge undefiled are revealed through Jesus Christ alone to those In Christ Alone.

EVERYTHING was made by Him and For Him and without HIM nothing is made.

So ASK God for this wisdom and knowledge..so says James. Ask the one who IS the beginning and end, first and last, alpha and omega.

Unless you don't know how to!
---kathr4453 on 3/8/14


Theophilus does not use the words "the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" to describe the Trinity. Rather, Theophilus himself puts it as "God, his Word (Logos) and his Wisdom (Sophia)." (Genesis chapters 1-3). According to Theophilus, the sun is the image of God, the moon of man, whose death and resurrection are prefigured by the monthly changes of that luminary.

Sorry, but just knowing this about Theophilus, says he was still holding on to his pagan upbringing and sun god worshipping and probably how Gnosticism was continuing to be taught that Paul warned about.

Can't eat that one either Micha. Warwick is certainly welcome to defend this as truth. I won't.
---kathr4453 on 3/8/14


You promote Gnosticism Micha.

According to one Gnostic myth the shaping of the material world was the result of Sophia, who was often decribed as an emanation of eternal light, an "immaculate mirror of God's activity," and as "the spouse of the Lord." Through her desire to "know the Father", she was cast out of the Pleroma (the gnostic heaven) and her desire gave birth to the God who created the material world. Although she was eventually restored to the Pleroma, bits of her divinity remain in the material world.

The inferior God created by Sophia's desire, also referred to as the Demiurge, is the Creator God of the Old Testament.
---kathr4453 on 3/8/14


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/the Word of God by him (Moses) as by an instrument, says, In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. First he named the beginning, and creation, then he thus introduced God...and that [it might be known that] by His Word God created the heavens and the earth, and all that is therein, he said, In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Then having spoken of their creation, he explains to us: And the earth was without form, and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God moved upon the water. This, sacred Scripture teaches at the outset, to show that matter, from which God made and fashioned the world, was in some manner created, being produced by God.\-Theophilus of Antioch. [a.d. 115-183.]
---micha9344 on 3/7/14


#2
/Indeed, how full and complete is the meaning of these words: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth, but the earth was without form, and void,the very same earth, no doubt, which God made, and of which the Scripture had been speaking at that very moment. For that very but is inserted into the narrative like a clasp, (in its function) of a conjunctive particle, to connect the two sentences indissolubly together: But the earth. This word carries back the mind to that earth of which mention had just been made, and binds the sense thereunto.\-Tertullian (160-225 a.d.)
---micha9344 on 3/7/14


A myth exists that if one is not a Calvinist they are an Arminians. But narrow-minded folks can't grasp that there is a third...NEITHER. But to those who can't think outside their own box, THATS where the name calling begins.

I HATE LABELS OF ANYKIND. So please DON'T put me in a box YOU have labeled. So for the LABELED BOXES ,YEC's ID, and various GAP's , after reading the ingredients on the outside of those boxes, WOULD NOT purchase and swallow. All the above have worldly wisdom MIXED, and misrepresentation of scripture, omitting other scriptures as well. Don't eat as Eve believing you now KNOW as God KNOWS. You don't. Any you WON'T until The Lord Himself reveals these mysteries.
---kathr4453 on 3/7/14


2 Corinthians 4:6
For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

If you don't understand this, you will NEVER understand Genesis.

So Warwick, stop your railing. Or maybe go pick on one of the MEN here who don't hold your views. You're beginning to look like an abuser of women. Your "oh you're too sensitive" comment gave you away, as this IS the exact words an abusers uses.
---kathr4453 on 3/7/14


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"In the beginning was the Word"

The passage teaches that when the beginning started the Word was there. The Word did not begin in the beginning.

I do not see Warwick angry, or mad at anyone. No one is angry, everyone is giving their opinions, some with the word of God and some without the Word of God. It is important to have faith in the word of God, and trust in the word of God, and not an opinion for opinions are many and mostly all different.
If I offend anyone, please forgive me.
---Luke on 3/7/14


Warwick, no I meant deep seeded. Seeds of arrogance that have sprung up within you, believing yourself to be the defender of absolute truth. Again arrogance on your part thinking you are correcting me...

I have not place any fossil records anywhere because I don't have them in hand to place anywhere. I gave you a possibility between Adam and Noah, and WHY I don't believe before Noah can be accurately carbon dated, but that doesn't seem to be the answer you are looking for. Since I am no scientist, and MY faith is not science based, but scripturally based, no carcasses are necessary for me before I can conclude ANGELS were created before man. I do not have any jaw bones of an ass on my bookcase. But we do see one here in person.
---kathr4453 on 3/6/14


I too am very passionate about the truth Warwick. So please come down off your Tower of Babel, believing you have reached God and all the answers to life and the universe, through your self efforts and man made doctrines built on philosophy and vein deceit. I know exactly who and what you all stand for now, that I did not several days ago. I thank God for opening my eyes to an area I had never really spent that much time on. I do see how this will in the end will bring more division among Christians along with cutting off the ears of the unsaved by being so dogmatic about Your version of Genesis.

I have no use for those who deny scripture as you have. And this is a well known fact about the YEC dogma.
---kathr4453 on 3/6/14


Kath, I think you meant deep -seated.

I am a passionate supporter of the truth of God's word and will challenge anyone whom I believe is promoting nonBiblcal views. I did challenge you and repeatedly asked you one question which would expose the truth, however you have repeatedly refused to answer the question. You even said you had answered but that is untrue. But where is the "anger"? It is in your mind because I have annoyed you by exposing your nonBiblical beliefs. It is therefore you who is angry, as your words show.

I will happily give you one more chance to answer the simple question: Where do you place the fossil record in Scripture?
---Warwick on 3/6/14


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I would like to take this time to apologize for any personal attacks I have made or inferred.
Scripture is not meant for that and I am still being perfected in Christ.
This does not, however, negate any validity in the Truth that scripture holds.
Stars are physical. They were made on day 4. Morning started on day 1 with physical light divided. Morning stars (Job 38)are a reference to the spiritual.
Gen 1 talks about the creation of the physical realm, most notably the Earth, created for man to inhabit.
Psa 115:16 The heaven, [even] the heavens, [are] the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.
Isa 45:18 ...he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited...
---micha9344 on 3/6/14


For decades Scientist taught the steady state universe and that Christianity was wrong there was no beginning of the Universe.

Then the Big Bang theory was advanced. When it was finally accepted as being true. It was stated that Scientist climbed the mountain of knowledge to find Theologians already sitting there.

Yes Luke we who believe in the Gap between in the Beginning and this worlds creation. We are not evolutionists.

At the same token those who teach intelligent Design are not my enemies.

Agape to all.
---Samuelbb7 on 3/6/14


It is humorous that even YEC with their geologists scientists, shovels, philosophy and pitch forks are looking for God in the dirt, and clay of this old earth. They too are looking for truth in dead carcusses, where the god of this world has blinded their eyes to the most awesome truths of all....GOD. He's not down here in the dirt folks. Yet they want to define GOD through the material, and philosophical of unregenerate man and the supposed laws of nature. These are not even YOUNG MEN in Christ who have overcome the evil one, to be able to see from God's perspective being UP and looking down, but still down here desperately trying to look up.

Good luck with that.
---kathr4453 on 3/6/14


The fallen man= without form and void with darkness upon us.

The Holy Spirit moves upon this formless mass, before LIGHT shines into us.

Eve taken from Adam's rib, is a shadow of the Church..Ephesians..bone of his bone! flesh of His Flesh.

This is want the unregenerate mind cannot see or understand. From Genesis to revelation is about JESUS CHRIST. The types and shadows of the tabernacle AGAIN is revealed in the NT IS about Jesus Christ.

Without the mind of Christ, you can never KNOW God from the beginning, 1st John, are spiritually immature children in understanding and will never make it to fatherhood ...1st John.
---kathr4453 on 3/6/14


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Charles Spurgeon:

What is truly notable is that during his time on earth, the age of the earth was receiving a lot of attention due to scientific discoveries in the 1800's. He did not believe that a millions of years old earth contradicted Genesis, and he clearly thought this issue had no impact upon any key doctrines of the Bible (contrary to the position of YEC's today (see Spurgeon and the Age of the Earth).
Spurgeons sermons are public domain and can be read by all.

Be careful who you curse Warwick .
---kathr4453 on 3/6/14


Warwick, and Micha are the angry ones who throw the first stones over and over where I have not.

But as you said Micha like yourself are seriously grounded in Words and thoughts like " the laws of nature" you call scripturally centered, WRONG..while calling me horrible names as you just did again.

May want to read my other post on how this country was NOT founded on religious freedom and how legalistic narrow minded RELIGION, not Christianity, like yourself , murdered, persecuted, and used words exactly as you just have Warwick. Legalists are the most evil people on earth, who are I fact the real MURDERERS. Just to think YOU all desperately want to bring this country back under your murdering mentality.
---kathr4453 on 3/6/14


The real deep seeded anger from Warwick here is politically motivated, not spiritually motivated. It's the "Politics" of young earth creationists, disagreeing with their own selves, where many are not Christians to begin with, and based on "THEIR scientific facts" ....hypocrites .....don't even know who their enemy is.....EVOLUTION.
Those who believe In a gap between Gen 1:1-2 are NOT EVOLUTIONISTS.

They have twisted Romans 5 to reread creation and NOT JESUS CHRIST, RIGHTEOUSNESS AND REDEMPTION,PERIOD.

They're the ones who have hi-jacked scripture for their own AGENDA, twisting scripture omitting others to fit in with THEIR supposed absolute truth. Same cult behavior, just different names.
---kathr4553 on 3/6/14


Micha, your understanding of the word of God is very sound. Your answers with Scripture all tell the story correctly. Very good points you gave. There is many theories but they are just theories. The beginning of all things begin on day one. There is no other beginning anywhere in the Bible. Our eternal God always existed, and creation started on day 1.
---Luke on 3/6/14


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Kath, from the first day I saw Michael's name appear on these pages I have noted his consistent support of Scripture, as written, and his gentlemanly approach. Compared to him you are but an angry compromising hypocrite.

Initially you portrayed yourself as a Bible believer, generally pleasant in the way you wrote to others. But you are now exposed as someone who feels the need to denigrate anyone who disagrees with your nonBiblical imaginings. The true nasty Kath is exposed for all to see.
---Warwick on 3/5/14


Yes Micha your comments are foolish, as we all believe Jesus IS GOD who was also in the BEGINNING. But "in the beginning" in John 1 is not the First day as God has no beginning or end.

And again calling GOD a liar in Job is also foolishness. Angels existed before the first day.

Hopefully you, like Job did, will throw yourself in the dirt, confessing you uttered things you know nothing of. Don't wait until it's too late to do so.
---kathr4453 on 3/5/14


Questions about Gods relation to time involve many of the most perplexing topics in metaphysics. These include the nature of the fundamental structures of the universe as well as the nature of Gods own life. It is not surprising that the questions are still open even after over two millennia of careful inquiry. While philosophers often come to conclusions that are reasonably settled in their mind, they are wise to hold such conclusions with an open hand.

Micha, who's philosophy of metaphysics do you follow? There are just so many, but I failed to read one who has/ had the mind of Christ.

Now that YOU'VE used scripture to curse others with, a cult tactic used out of pride, not humility, GOOD-DAY to you.
---kathr4453 on 3/5/14


"Remember you say NOTHING but NOTHING existed before the 6 days also saying Jesus Christ did not exist before the 6 days."-kathr4453 on 3/5/14
"John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word...
The Word was also already there, not being bound by time."-micha9344 on 3/3/14
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us...
Nothing but God existed before day 1.
Pro 15:2 The tongue of the wise useth knowledge aright: but the mouth of fools poureth out foolishness.
There is a lot of pouring going on here.
---micha9344 on 3/5/14


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There are two competing theories of Laws of Nature. The Regularity Theory, Laws of Nature are statements of the uniformities or regularities in the world, they are mere descriptions of the way the world is. On the other account, the Necessitarian Theory, Laws of Nature are the "principles" which govern the natural phenomena of the world. That is, the natural world obeys the Laws of Nature. This seemingly innocuous difference marks one of the most profound gulfs within contemporary philosophy, and has quite unexpected, and wide-ranging, implications.

Perhaps the most important implication of each theory is whether the universe is a cosmic coincidence OR driven by specific, eternal laws of nature.
what has this to do with GOD?
---kathr4453 on 3/5/14


//Space is a creation of God. God is not influenced nor restricted by it in any means, just as time.
Space is not eternal. Neither are the laws of nature that influence space, matter, time, and energy.//

Here we have " the laws of nature" as being totally separated from God himself. The laws of nature is just another way of saying GOD, HELLO!

But WHERE did this philosophy come from....young earth creationists? So they dabble in pholosophy...another no no....

Beware or philosophy vein deceit, fables etc. this idea MUST BE backed up through scripture.

When God parted the sea, GOD parted it BAM! Nothing said about God USING any laws of nature to do it and the land was dry INSTANTLY for them to cross.
---kathr4553 on 3/5/14


Here's the point Micha. If our sun died, we would be totally without energy. Life, animals and plants would die.

In the new heaven and earth NO SUN at all. God IS the Light. We also see fruit trees etc. you say the new heaven and earth will have no energy. OR is God the very source of energy, and always has been?

When was God's throne in the Holy of Holies created. During the 6 days? Prove it.
Revelation give us something of a picture of it. Is "space" available there? Or is this a place only in the imagination of God?
---kathr4463 on 3/5/14


Now here is a FACT Micha. Jesus was for-ordained BEFORE the foundation of the world to take away sin. So now let's jump to Leviticus and Hebrews. Everything God told Moses to build "the tabernacle," "mercy seat," "Holy of Holies" etc, was AFTER a pattern of things in heaven. So you say ALL was created those 6 days. So when in heaven did the REAL exist that was copied in an earthly manner pointing to Jesus who in the reality of the REAL tabernacle is Jesus Christ Himself.

Remember you say NOTHING but NOTHING existed before the 6 days also saying Jesus Christ did not exist before the 6 days.

Be careful!
---kathr4453 on 3/5/14


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Cluny: "God never said it did not rain on the earth until Noah."

Gen 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
Gen 2:6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

Is there any limit to your biblical ignorance?



---jerry6593 on 3/5/14


\\Hebrews 1:2
hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds,\\

The Hebrew word here is AIONOI, which means "ages", not KOSMOI.

Alas, the KJV mistranslated AINOI as "world". This is just one such place.

Glory to jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/5/14


Hebrews 1:2
hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds,

Hebrews 11:3
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.. Now that should keep the scientists scratching their heads forever.

let's also keep in mind "WORLDS" ( plural) does not mean other planets or solar systems.

As Genesis clarifies ...." These are the GENERATIONS OF THE EARTH." Again these are = plural....generations= plural.
---kathr4453 on 3/4/14


Micha, your's sound more like philosophy with no scripture to back up your philosophical comments here. This is YOU or someone else's theory based on what...science or Philosophy, or carnal human understanding.

So prove through scripture ALONE the issues stated here.....and not some philosophical smoke screen dancing around God's Word. You accused me of fantasy believing angels were created before man...but your last post is nothing but your fantasy of what you think, or something one might have heard Plato say in the past called Gnosticism, with no evidence, not even scripture to back it up.
---kathr4453 on 3/4/14


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When was " IN THE BEGINNING?"

In the beginning, of course.

Kidding aside, and that's all we need to know to live a faithful and christian lifestyle through our loving deeds.
---Steveng on 3/4/14


Space is a creation of God. God is not influenced nor restricted by it in any means, just as time.
Space is not eternal. Neither are the laws of nature that influence space, matter, time, and energy.
They all had a beginning. God, on the other hand, did not.
God created space, just as He created time, matter, and energy.
He did this on day 1, the beginning.
Most reasonable people start at 1 when they begin counting.
Day 1 was the first day of existence of anything, but God
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible... all things were created by him, and for him:
God can and does exist outside the physical realm.
---micha9344 on 3/4/14


Yes Aka, Genesis 2:5.

Water as in dew etc came up from the earth.

Angels and stars clapping as they witnessed the foundation of the earth being laid, Job 38 tells us Angels and stars were in fact created before the first day of TIME. There is no way around it, as countless Teachers of the Word have pointed to this for generations and generations.
---kathr4453 on 3/4/14


Genesis 2:6 says, "But streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground." Before the Flood *Genesis chapters 6-9*, the earth was surrounded by a "firmament" or canopy of water, creating almost a greenhouse effect on the earths climate. These are the waters that God released, causing the Flood. It seems that before the Flood the dew and ample water supply were enough to keep creation watered.

Also we see rainbow's every somewhere around the world after it's rained...not just flooded. But for the very FIRST TIME A rainbow appeared, God's Covenant with Man that He would never again flood the earth. If rainbows were common place after the rain, it would have meant nothing special.
---kathr4453 on 3/4/14


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Cluny, After saying (Gen.2.5) that "God had not yet sent rain" it says twice how the earth was watered, v.6 streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground! Vs. 10 a river watering the garden flowed from Eden...!
There would be no need to mention this IF it had rained!
Is it that vague that you can't figure it out ??
---1st_cliff on 3/4/14


other planets in our solar system and other galaxies are NOT subject to our (TIME). The Earth is NOT the center of the universe.

Time, with one sun, and one moon was given to US for days and Seasons concerning US only. God Himself is also not subject to OUR TIME, as subjected to days and hours and seasons.

To say there also was no SPACE until the first day of (time) is saying God lived in a vacuum.

To even suggest God laid dormant in a black hole for all eternity until (TIME) was given to man, who didn't even have a Throne of His own until time was given to man is utter nonsense.
---kathr4453 on 3/4/14


The Bible is unique among books as Christ was among men, in that it is the only book that claims repeatedly and consistently to be the truth.
It begins with the words: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. It does not argue the case, it simply states it. We tend to argue it.
---michael_e on 3/4/14


Job 38 is His command of the earth.
vv4-6 cf. Gen 1:1-2 the foundation was laid. formless-who can measure it?
v7 morning stars-physical or spiritual?
vv8-11 cf. G 1:6-10 the sea and the sky.
v12 morning/days-time -dayspring-sun cf. G1:14-17
v19 light and darkness cf. G1:3-5
v23-30 snow/hail/rain thunder/frost-post-flood
v26 NKJV: To cause it to rain on a land where there is no one, A wilderness in which there is no man,
v27 The desolate areas get rain also-post-flood
v31-33 the stars cf: G1:14-17
v34-35,37 clouds/rain
v36 man
v39 land animals
v41 birds
None of Job 38 has anything to do with an illusionary pre-established earth.
---micha9344 on 3/4/14


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\\GOD ALSO SAID: it did not rain on the earth until Noah when millions maybe billions of men WERE on the earth. This FACT does not involve anything but FAITH.\\

God never said it did not rain on the earth until Noah.

There is just no mention that it did rain, which proves nothing.

You cannot get by logic from "There is no mention of X happening" to "X didn't happen."

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/4/14


GOD ALSO SAID: it did not rain on the earth until Noah when millions maybe billions of men WERE on the earth. Kath

I cannot find this. Can you help me here?
---aka on 3/4/14


I'm talking about God's WORD ALONE, without ANY scientific this or that appealing to the carnality mind called FAITH alone in God's word alone. What is faith again? It's believing GOD and His WORD and evidence of things not seen. You can't PROVE faith scientifically. We believe because HIS WORD says so. God sees this faith and is DELIGHTED with those who ask HIM wisdom and not the world.

GOD HIMSELF SAID, HE caused it to rain on the earth before man was on the earth. GOD ALSO SAID: it did not rain on the earth until Noah when millions maybe billions of men WERE on the earth. This FACT does not involve anything but FAITH.

Now apply James 1 ONLY....ask God to unravel. God never contradicts Himself. We contradict God.
---kathr4453 on 3/4/14


-God created the heaven(space), the earth(matter) and light(enrgy) all on the first day of (time).

---micha9344 on 3/3/14

in Job 38' we see that lighting and thunder are in fact (energy) before (time) And the CREATION of angels (before time) took energy...the very same creative energy used ( in time).

For it to rain to bring forth herbs on the original earth (before time) took energy.

So now prove energy did not exist before (time). Then you're saying God Himself did not exist before (time).
---kathr4453 on 3/4/14


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Gen 1:1-5 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
-God created the heaven(space), the earth(matter) and light(enrgy) all on the first day of (time).
"The Particle Physics program seeks to explore the fundamental nature of matter, energy, space, and time."-National Science Foundation
---micha9344 on 3/3/14


\\Do you NOTICE a flaw in your reasoning?...

How can God be 6000 years old if He's timeless?"...\\

If you think that God didn't come into existence before the universe did, I'm not the one with flawed reasoning.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/3/14


Job 38:
25-----or a way for the lightning of thunder,26 to cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is,on the wilderness, wherein there is no man,27 to satisfy the desolate and waste ground,and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?

Here again is a direct contradiction to Genesis 2:5. When it did rain on the earth for the first time MAN was plenty on the earth. But job says a time rained in the earth when there was NO man. Again showing an original earth with NO man. And clouds bring rain, those clouds satan said I will ascend ABOVE the clouds, exalting himself as thou he were God, leading to his fall.

Some want to sweep under the carpet and admit they do not believe in EVERY word of God.
---kathr4453 on 3/3/14


Do you NOTICE a flaw in your reasoning?...

How can God be 6000 years old if He's timeless?"...

THIS IS MAN'S WISDOM and REASONING (this is also understood with EARTHLY WORDS)...do you know why GOD's wisdom is expressed with "TONGUES" (I personally don't believe in the human beings use of tongues, but you can clearly see a principle that God's wisdom/expressions cannot be understood/expressed in a human understanding).

Romans 6
"I speak to you in human terms because of your natural limitations".
---faithforfaith on 3/3/14


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The Word was also already there, not being bound by time.
Anything that happened between Gen 1:1 and 1:2 is man-made fantasy.
---micha9344 on 3/3/14

Actually that is a contradiction in thought. no verse says, and God created a 24 hour day calling it the first day called the Beginning and then created the heavens and earth.
Correct Cluny, no one knows or can put a time or date on IN THE BEGINNING. there are many beginnings in Scripture...Paul uses one and defines it: In the Beginning of the Gospel .Or in the OT, "In the beginning of so and so's reign, but Genesis 1:1 does not say in the beginning of creation. It just says in the Beginning, Just as John 1:1 also state "In the Beginning" not bound by time.
---kathr4453 on 3/3/14


\\God and Jesus being only 6000 years old has nothing to do with Egypts this or that.\\

How can God be 6000 years old if He's timeless?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/3/14


The answer is -yes.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God...
God was already there, since He created time and started it for us.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word...
The Word was also already there, not being bound by time.
Anything that happened between Gen 1:1 and 1:2 is man-made fantasy.
One can also read the strata as to what was killed and covered by the flood of Noah, which better supports scripture.
The same scientists that accept evolutionary principle also accept long-ages.
Some here discredit one, but give full heed to the other.
---micha9344 on 3/3/14


"Christianity" is not in the bible(a fact worth taking SERIOUS). Believers" were not taught to be "worshipers" but simply "believe" just like satan wishes it to be (satan knows the weaknesses of humanity are it's WORDS).

Neither is the word "bible" in the "bible"/scripture (yet this doesn't alarm anyone who claims to be dedicated to the truth...(you can't just LIKE the truth, you must "LOVE" the truth, 1 Thessalonians 2).

Oh well, since you'd rather quibble about TIME and man's knowledge/understanding called WISDOM, realize that you are disobeying/ignoring Mark 12:31 ("LOVE GOD with all your HEART, MIND,...".
---faithforfaith on 3/3/14


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God and Jesus being only 6000 years old has nothing to do with Egypts this or that.

When was the BEGINNING? is God and Jesus really only 6000 years old? OR like scripture teaches, God has no Beginning and End? So when was "IN the beginning was the Word".

If that BEGINNING is the exact same time as IN THE BEGINNING God Created the heaven and earth, then God is only 6000 years old. WRONG. So fact is, no one really knows when IN the beginning was exactly.

Why didn't God open up saying, " "the heaven and earth were created by God in 6 days? Here's what happened on those 6 days.
---kathr4453 on 3/3/14


\\Look up FOMENKO NEW CHRONOLOGY at Wikipedia.\\

The Wikipedia article calls it a "fringe theory."

A foil hat should protect you from such.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/1/14


Archeologists can read the earth's strata like a book, the same way tree rings tell age!
artifacts found at each level tell a story of man's history!
---1st_cliff on 3/1/14


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