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Is Wine A Sin

Is taking wine a sin? Why did jesus changed water into it?

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 ---Michael_mutethia on 3/8/14
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Is taking wine a sin? Why did jesus changed water into it?
---Michael_mutethia on 3/8/14

Lest any be "Puffed" Col 2:8.
Col_2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Rom_14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not, let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

Col 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
---Trav on 4/7/14


Your correct Warwick. But I am using this passage in addition to other passages.

Alcohol is a legal narcotic a depressant. It clouds a person's ability to think. It leads to the death of thousands of people. As Mothers Against Drunk Drivers and others sources can tell you even small amounts will impair you.

Coffee tends to make the mind sharper. But it still something to use wisely.

I have alcoholics on both my Fathers and Mothers side of my family.

I have seen great evil come from drinking alcohol and see no good thing. With more drugs becoming legal this argument that in small amounts they are okay will become more prevalent.

I also do not believe Christians should smoke cigarettes.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 4/4/14


Samuel, thank you for your answer.

In reality the verses you gave are absolutely no argument against the consumption of alcohol. They simply say that for someone undertaking a Nazarite vow, for a time, nothing from the grape vine is to be consumed. If it was a general argument against the consumption of alcohol it would also be an argument against drinking grape juice, and eating fresh grapes or raisins. BTW the Jews had raisins, as the verses show. They are after all only dried grapes.

Sleeping tablets are mind-altering drugs, and can have serious side effects.

I take no legal or illegal drugs, other than the very occasional aspro, a little good red wine, and of course good strong coffee.
---Warwick on 4/4/14


grapes don't make one drunk and act like a fool.
---shira4368 on 4/3/14


Do you also abstain from grapes, grape-juice, and raisins? Surely you must if the verses you quote are to be taken the way you do.

Do you abstain from them?
Warwick

Sorry I have not been here for awhile. No I drink Grape Juice and eat raisins. I am not sure the Jews had raisins but that is not the point.

You are correct this is not a perfect verse saying drinking wine is a sin. But it is part of a pattern.

Now as for a sleeping pill being a Mind altering drug that is a bit of a reach.

Mind Altering drugs change your ability to think and act rationally. For Example LSD. Do you think that it is okay to take drugs like LSD? Or to take depressants?

Some others have made good points also.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/3/14




Anything which makes us behave in a way not fitting for a Christian to behave is best not taken.

We should be good witnesses for Christ and know our own limits on everything. Being a glutton will be a bad witness and the bible speaks of that also.

My father would not touch alcohol because of the effects he saw it have on his own father (and my father was not a Christian) . I have never touched it for the same reason and, since becoming a Christian, realise that there are many things we should abstain from if they will affect our witness.
---Rita_H on 4/1/14


Samuel, that you have not ventured an answer to my question is solid evidence that you do not have an answer. The lack of an answer should show you that your belief is incorrect. But I am sure that fact will not alter your emotional anti-wine belief.

You,of course can prove me wrong if you do have a good answer, can't you?
---Warwick on 3/31/14


Cluny - I Know that - I wrote those verses down for the fact if anyone wanted to know were some people get the idea, that a christian should not drink at all, Over the years I heard people say a Christian should not drink - but they didn't know why - or the verses, it took me a while to find out were they got it from,
---RichardC on 3/29/14


\\( These are verses are used for saying why a believer should not drink )
---RichardC on 3/28/14\\

And elsewhere, God is described as having a cup of wine in His hands which He gives to the blessed, but pours out the dregs on the damned.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/29/14


Samuel how about an answer?
---Warwick on 3/28/14




Proverbs 31:4 - It is not for Kings , OLemuel , it is not for Kings to drink wine: nor princes strong drink.

Revelation 1:6 - And has made us kings and priests unto God and his Father: to him be the glory and dominion for ever and ever, Amen.

( These are verses are used for saying why a believer should not drink )
---RichardC on 3/28/14


"I am saying that taking a Mind Altering drug to make yourself feel better and to quit thinking is a sin."-Samuelbb7 on 3/28/14
-This is opinion and also vague since "mind altering" can have its line drawn just about anywhere.
Sleeping meds are "mind altering", even pain relievers, since they do nothing but make one "feel better" and have little to do with the actual "healing."
So, what does the Bible have to say about making one "feel better"?
Proverbs 31:6-7 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.
-The first and only biblical pain reliever.
---micha9344 on 3/28/14


\\Lev 10:9

Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation,..\\

Samuel, it's not just wine that the priests were to abstain from when they ministered.

Modesty prevents my being more specific.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/28/14


People use the teaching that if you drink strong wine then you can drink Brandy, Tequila, Vodka and EverClear.

Are these a sin to drink?

All these are mind altering drugs some with a lethal potential in small amounts.

New Wine was not fermented and as pointed out fermented wine was mixed with water.

I am saying that taking a Mind Altering drug to make yourself feel better and to quit thinking is a sin.

But if you are ill then drugs that help heal you are fine.

The Bible does have some ambiguity on the subject. But we should understand that today what is drunk is not the same as then.

Also what is not of faith or puts a stumbling block in the way of others is a sin.
---Samuelbb7 on 3/28/14


Samuel, Judges 13:4,14 concern Nazarite vows-abstention for a period. These verses do not say others must abstain from wine.

Leviticus 10:9 concerns Levites abstaining from wine for a time, for a purpose.

Numbers 6:3,4 also speaks to the Nazarite vow, in more detail, i.e. the vow-maker must abstain, for a period, "from wine, strong drink, vinegar, grape juice or even fresh grapes or raisins!

If God's command to the vow-maker to abstain from wine means drinking wine is sinful, then likewise eating grapes etc must be sinful.

Do you also abstain from grapes, grape-juice, and raisins? Surely you must if the verses you quote are to be taken the way you do.

Do you abstain from them?
---Warwick on 3/27/14


Daniel...I agree but many try to minimize the alcoholic content of wine in jesus' day or some other justification instead of saying that excess is the sin.

As jesus said...it is not what goes in...it is what (words and actions) comes out that defile.

Good luck on drinking to excess and not sinning. Good luck on any drinking for some and not sinning.
---aka on 3/27/14


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The question seems misleading since you ask the question and then answer it yourself.

Wine is significant to medicine and the Symbolic purpose of drinking wine to represent Christ's remembrance, and is what born again, saved people are purely supposed to do with it.

However, as a man of God one should full know to drink excess wine, this will cause you to get drunk if it is fermented. Therefore, drinking to get drunk is a sin.
---Carla on 3/27/14


Correct Cluny a Seventh day Adventist did invent Corn Flakes.

But there is a difference between taking a mind altering drug and eating something that is supposed to be good for you.

So I am saying that the modern alcoholic drinks are causes of major problems and millions of deaths.

Lev 10:9

Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation,..

We are to walk in the presence of the Lord every day.

Judges 13:14

She may not eat of any thing that cometh of the vine, neither let her drink wine or strong drink, nor eat any unclean thing: all that I commanded her let her observe.

See Fetal Alcohol syndrome.
---Samuelbb7 on 3/27/14


Honestly the bible says nothing about alcohol being a sin. It says being a drunkard is a sin. Jesus had wine. Was and is He not perfect? Are you saying He sinned? Read Luke 22:15-18.
---daniel on 3/27/14


Cluny: "Alcohol does not make one an alcoholic. It merely reveals the physical and psychological weaknesses that are already there."

Are you saying that it is God's fault that people have these weaknesses, and thus become alcoholics?



---jerry6593 on 3/27/14


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Samuel, some people are allergic to peanut butter and wheat.

Does that mean it's a sin per se to eat wheat flakes with milk--something invented by an SDA, if I'm not mistaken?

Are you saying that this risk of gluten or wheat reaction is something that NOBODY should take?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/26/14


Cluny, you can rationalize alcohol anyway you want, but it is sin. Society says it's an illness, bible says sin. Which one do I believe?
---shira4368 on 3/26/14


As our genetic problems are part of the curse they are the result of sin. Today some people die if they eat peanuts. Others are made ill by such as gluten or dairy-foods. Allergies and food intolerances are today very common. We older people can remember a time when such allergies or intolerances were almost unknown.

Physically we are on the downhill slide with the number of genetic disorders increasing rapidly. Currently there are c3,500, and increasing. Therefore such problems as alcoholism are genetic problems, the result of sin.

Considering the above I am convinced that peanuts, gluten, dairy products, and alcohol (for example) are dangerous for some people but are not in themselves sinful.
---Warwick on 3/26/14


It is not wine, or any other form of alcohol, which is the sin - it is the inability of some people to not be able to control their consumption of it.

From my own personal choice I do not touch alcohol except that which is sometimes found in prescribed medication.

I work for a charity which has a great amount of contact with alcoholics and drug addicts. Most alcholics wish that they had never had that first drink.

I would not refuse alcoholic communion wine but our own church uses non-alcoholic and most churches I have visited do the same.
---Rita_H on 3/26/14


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Rom 14:10,13-17 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ....Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in [his] brother's way. I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that [there is] nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him [it is] unclean. But if thy brother be grieved with [thy] meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died. Let not then your good be evil spoken of: For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink, but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost
---micha9344 on 3/26/14


Alcohol does not make one an alcoholic. It merely reveals the physical and psychological weaknesses that are already there.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

---Cluny

Which is a very good reason to tell people not to drink alcohol. Some people are also allergic to it and can die after a modest amount.

But also every year people die of Alcohol toxicity. There was in fact a recent new case where a little girl was drinking Tequila shots her mother gave her and she almost died.

So why is taking a risk lie you point out Cluny a good thing?
---Samuelbb7 on 3/26/14


1Co 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
RSV "All things are lawful for me," but not all things are helpful. "All things are lawful for me," but I will not be enslaved by anything.
---micha9344 on 3/25/14


For shira's benefit, I will repeat what I said on 22 March.

\\But it wasn't alcohol that made them alcoholics, shira.

You didn't think it was, did you?

There is a biochemichal, possibly a genetic, and definitely a psychological ingredient in alcoholism.\\

Alcohol does not make one an alcoholic. It merely reveals the physical and psychological weaknesses that are already there.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/25/14


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\\Cluny, what do you think causes one to become alcoholics? It sure isn't sweet tea or cola.
---shira4368 on 3/23/14\\

I've already answered this question, shira.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/24/14


Well is taking mind altering drugs for fun that hurt the body reduce our ability to think, reason and cause massive social problems a sin?
---Samuelbb7 on 3/24/14


I have a friend whose obesity is threatening his life. It was caused by his excessive eating, especially of chocolate. Does this make eating chocolate a sin?
---Warwick on 3/24/14


Cluny, what do you think causes one to become alcoholics? It sure isn't sweet tea or cola.
---shira4368 on 3/23/14


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>But it wasn't alcohol that made them alcoholics, shira.

You didn't think it was, did you?

There is a biochemichal, possibly a genetic, and definitely a psychological ingredient in alcoholism.

All this, of course, provides good reasons for alcoholics to abstain permanently.

It does not make drinking wine a sin in itself.

I know a lady who had a bad problem with overeating, but discovered she had two triggers that would set her on an eating binge: wheat (in any form) and sugar.

It was difficult to come up with a diet that helped her control things, but with God's help, she did.

Does this mean that wheat and sugar are sins?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/22/14


"To me drinking alchol is generally a sin. Just like taking any mind altering drug.

---Samuelbb7on 3/19/14

Coffee and tea have a mind altering drug in it. SDAs used to prohibit caffeine. now I think it is of personal choice in your denomination.
---aka on 3/22/14


How well I know Shira! :)
---Leon on 3/22/14


leon, take a look at the alcoholic. they all started with one drink.
---shira4368 on 3/22/14


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Michael: Jesus, who changed water into wine, was not a sinner. Therefore, there's nothing inherently evil about drinking wine. However, drinking too much wine (drunkedness), eating too much food (glutony), doing too much of anything carnal can be a contributing factor for people to sin.

Using myself as an example, I don't drink fermented beverages because I'm a recovered alcoholic. Drinking wine could be a real problem for me even if I were to do so in church communion.
---Leon on 3/21/14


\\It shows that wine then used was a lot less alchol then is being drunk today. \\

The wine itself still starts out at 10-12% alcohol

The water dilutes the percentage only slightly.

If you don't want to drink wine, Samuel, you don't have to.

I don't because alcoholic beverages mess up my blood sugar, not because their consumption is per se sinful. It isn't.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/19/14


Thanks for the point about water being added to wine for most in the past.

It shows that wine then used was a lot less alchol then is being drunk today.

To me drinking alchol is generally a sin. Just like taking any mind altering drug.
---Samuelbb7 on 3/19/14


\\ I am not sure if that was done in Israel, I know it was done in Greece, do dilute wine with water before drinking.\\

Quite right. I forgot to mention that.

This is one reason why the pre-Reformation rites for the Eucharist call for some water to be added to the wine.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/15/14


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Cluny: 'Wine has always been 10-12% alcohol.'

That is true for wine 'as made'. However, in Revelation 14:10, there is a comment about drinking 'full strength' the wine of God's wrath, and in many countries there was a custom, I am not sure if that was done in Israel, I know it was done in Greece, do dilute wine with water before drinking.

What I'm saying is not proof, only that it might be. There are a couple of passages in both the Odyssey about mixing water with wine, and I think there is something in the Aeneid as well.

But yes, when you ferment grape juice, grapes have about 10-12% sugar, so you get 10-12% alcohol - and then yeast dies.
---Peter on 3/15/14


\\, and vinegar.
I had thought strong drink to be distilled, but I could be wrong.\\

Not all vinegars are distilled. Mostly, they are just wines that have gone sour because of bacterial action, which is not the same thing as fermentation, though there are some distilled vinegars, especially white ones.

Spirits, of course, are distilled.

But it is actually undesirable to drink partially fermented wine.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/15/14


Trey, you have raised a good point. Acts 2:15 "For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day." Do you notice Peter did not say they were not drunk because they do not drink wine but that they do not start drinking so early in the day!
---Warwick on 3/15/14


"Wine has always been 10-12% alcohol"-Cluny on 3/14/14
"It was around 2% alcohol unlike the wine we drink today."-trey on 3/13/14
I was under the impression that the fruit of the vine was consumed at all stages of fermentation for various reasons, thus having new wine, old wine, and vinegar.
I had thought strong drink to be distilled, but I could be wrong.
---micha9344 on 3/14/14


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\\It was around 2% alcohol unlike the wine we drink today. \\

Wrong, trey.

Wine has always been 10-12% alcohol.

Above that level, the alcohol kills the yeast and stops fermentation.

I don't know where and how the urban legend that "wine back then wasn't as strong as wine today."

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/14/14


Concerning wine:
1Tim5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

The water in biblical times wasn't Dasani, and it was not strong drink. It was around 2% alcohol unlike the wine we drink today. That is why the scripture say:
Pr23:30 They that tarry long at the wine, they that go to seek mixed wine.
And that is why Peter said:
Ac2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

It took a lot more of it to get drunk.
---trey on 3/13/14


Scott, True, but if an Alien happen to come by and see a human trailing a dog on a lead and stooping down to pick up after it....wouldn't they wonder just who's in charge???
---1st_cliff on 3/13/14


//Dogs have owners, cats have staff!
---1st_cliff on 3/11/14

Really, but a cat can take care of itself. Dogs need wash, walk, pick-up, feed, etc. Cats - hunt, clean, themselves.
---Scott1 on 3/13/14


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To 1st Cliff, Thanks for the little
tid bits, we need a little chuckle once in a while.. with all respect Bro.Aka good see ya! Be happy,brother.
Smiles..

Love of Jesus!
---Lidia4796 on 3/12/14


Hello,Cluny,great about how wine is made, as for the cats Bro.Cluny I had many cats through the years..never did I have a complaint from anyone.
The cats are to be kept in his apt. I told him,I am very ill ....he is on crack cocaine Cluny, you mean well.

people who use drugs they do not care about anyone unless they get off drugs and get help! These people are completely out of reality,

5 sets of folks with cats and dogs..they never let their cats out to use my area for the potty! I know you are very intelligent,you read alot but this is not good for me to be worried like this and this neighbor feel he can take advantage!

Love of Jesus!

I plan to move anyway..soon as possible or pray they move.
---Lidia4796 on 3/11/14


Dogs have owners, cats have staff!
---1st_cliff on 3/11/14


\\the bible talks about the wine ( strong drink) is a mocker! \\

Strong drink are distilled beverages. Wine is fermented. They are not the same.

Distillation was know about millennia ago at the time the Bible was written.

I have a friend who cooks delicious roasts marinated and braised in wine. Of course, the alcohol disappears during the cooking process.

If cats go outside, you cannot train them NOT to go into certain areas, like you can dogs. Kitties have their own agenda.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/11/14


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Hello,well, I tell you..wine sure do not make thiings anyways good in some instance,alcohol and drugs.

I am see "red" bout right now! My neighbor upstairs lives in a bottle and he ain't no genie!

He stays drunk & his wife have lost all respect..the bible talks about the wine ( strong drink) is a mocker!

They let cats in my area messing all over.. he cursed me out, I was left a notice to clean it .

had no idea the others complain. I do not go out much.

I got mad, he hit me. it didn't hurt, I want God deal with him,
he did NOT care I am sick!

he NEED keep his cats his side not filthy mine. God speak to his heart. I been a good neighbor.

On God I stand.. Ps.37 Ps.91:1
---Lidia4796 on 3/11/14


Thanks Cluny my "spell check" is not working right now!
---1st_cliff on 3/10/14


\\A Greek Orthodox church was built here some 20 years ago but now is in dire financial straights!(loosing members)
---1st_cliff on 3/10/14\\

The word you're looking for is spelled "straits". There is no gh in it.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/10/14


1st Cliff said: One Pentecostal Pastor here sued his congregation for $80,000 for wrongful dismissal! ($40.000 yearly plus benefits

Ah, but Cliff, that is a Protestant minister, not a Catholic or Orthodox priest. While (for the most part) Roman Catholic parishes will usually supply a rectory, most other Eastern Catholic and Orthodox Churches here in America can't afford it.

Even my bishop does not have the money to pay for a monastery, so we have to pay rent, utilities, etc., just like normal people

Pray for me!
the unworthy monk Brendan
---Monk_Brendan on 3/10/14


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Before answering that question, let me state that I do not drink any alcoholic beverages. There is very little mentioned in the Bible about total abstinence. It does state a lot about moderation. Wine is a valid drink when taken in moderation. I have some missionary friends who point out that they were in places where it was safer to drink the local wine than the water. The best way to drink wine is with the meal and with moderation. I had a brother who died at 63 who was a wino, so you can drink too much. Christ did make real wine - this can be noted in the fact that wedding guest noticed it tasted better than what was first severed - which is not the way it's usually done. Usually the best wine is severed first.
---wivv on 3/10/14


Cluny, I have no idea what it's like "all over the world" and neither do you!
I only described what it's like here!
A couple of old mainline churches have folded for dwindling membership but the charismatics are booming!
Christian Science has disappeared all together! JWs have stagnated, as well as SDA!
A Greek Orthodox church was built here some 20 years ago but now is in dire financial straights!(loosing members)
---1st_cliff on 3/10/14


\\Cluny, It does not bother me to "pop off" about conditions in my area.\\

And obviously, where you are is typical of conditions all over the world, right?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/10/14


1stCliff....Not all pastors live that way. We have no reserved parking because we walk across the parking lot from the parsonage to church. This means people think we are available 24/7. We live in a 100-year old adobe house which is constantly needing repair which my husband does. Although the church is financially solid we take no salary by our choice. We retired from secular jobs to do the Lord's work full-time at an age when most are retiring from the ministry. So, you see, not all pastors are out for the money.
---KarenD on 3/10/14


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Cluny, It does not bother me to "pop off" about conditions in my area. What it's like where you live I have no knowledge!
I was commenting on conditions in the majority of cases in this area. Not exactly affluent but neither poor! One Pentecostal Pastor here sued his congregation for $80,000 for wrongful dismissal! ($40.000 yearly plus benefits)
---1st_cliff on 3/10/14


\\Living in a "Manse" (nice home) supplied by the church. drawing a weekly salary!\\

Our pastor and his wife live in a condominium they bought themselves from his salary when he had a secular job, and he's living on the pension he acquired from it.

Many pastors (both Orthodox and denominational) can tell you that the manse/parsonage/pastrium/rectory was usually in bad shape, furnished with castoffs from the members.

Doesn't it bother you to pop off about things you know nothing about?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/10/14


If you accept a little wine for pleasure (ps 104:15) but deny kids the joy of an Easter egg hunt that is pretty selfish.
---Scott on 3/10/14


Thanks for the spelling lesson.im always willing to learn.
---shira4368 on 3/9/14


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Rita. Pastors here must be very different than in UK.
Here they have a reserved sign on the Church close to the door "Pastor Parking".
Living in a "Manse" (nice home) supplied by the church. drawing a weekly salary!
Like the Rabbis of Jesus' day like the front seats at any event!(and be called "Reverend")
Even the Pastor's wife, of a large Pentecostal church here, is called "Reverend Maureen"

---1st_cliff on 3/9/14


Jesus was setting an example for christians to follow like emersing oneself into water to get baptised. If Jesus did not believe in drinking wine then he would have said so, but he didn't. Doesn't the bible say to do things in moderation?
---Steveng on 3/9/14


One glass of wine no more makes a person a drunkard than one bite of food makes the average person a glutton.

Note the proper spelling, shira.

How many people at your church have you advised to kill themselves?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/9/14


\\cluny, you are making a blanket statement about evangelicals.\\

People here make negative blanket statements about non-Protestant, that is Pre-Reformation, Christians all the time, and you are silent, shira.

Why?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/9/14


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cluny, you are making a blanket statement about evangelicals. you suggest they are all glutens. I love dinner on the grounds. they are always fun.
---shira4368 on 3/8/14


"Is taking wine a sin?" No.
"Why did jesus changed water into it?"
Because His mother expected Him to. Jhn 2:3
And "What Jesus did here in Cana of Galilee was the first of the signs through which he revealed his glory, and his disciples believed in him." Jhn 2:11 NIV
---josef on 3/9/14


Cluny had to once more get his insults in. I do believe if one is a gluten it will show thru lbs. not a very good blanket statement. Cluny do you have fat people in your church. I had a friend who kept telling me stuff like "lipstick has never touched my lips" and " make up has never touched my skin" but she weighs about 350 lbs and she was judging me because I like make up, blush, lipstick. Oh well we see these kinds of people everywhere don't we?
---shira4368 on 3/9/14


Having just seen Cluny's answer here I am left wondering if Evangelicals in U.S. are a different breed of people from Evangelicals in U.K.

Most evangelicals known by me personally (I accept that there a many I don't know) don't touch alcohol in any form and are far from being gluttonous.

They are generous to people who have little, are very hospitable - regardless of how humble (and poor) their own home is.

They pull out all the stops to help people find information, practical help and items needed (for example after being homeless for a period).

I don't recognise what Cluny has to say here at all, it is totally alien and makes me glad I'm 'here' and not 'there'.
---Rita_H on 3/9/14


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"Judge not, that ye be not judged.

For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?" Matthew 7:1-3, KJV
---Leon on 3/9/14


Wine is good if taken for the stomach. The bible tells us to only be drunk with the Holy ghost. Jesus changed water into wine because that was the norm of the day. He had not yet left us the helper, who is the Holy ghost.Whom He left us after dieing and resurrecting.
---Lydia on 3/9/14


No, not per se.

OTOH, most Evangelicals have very little self-control regarding food, as you can see at any dinner on the grounds or church pot luck.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/8/14


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