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Adam And Eve Fall

I realize that any answer to this question will be speculation. How long (or short) a period do you think elapsed between the creation of Adam and Eve and their fall?

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 ---Cluny on 3/24/14
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Acts 28:6: god him was

John 1:1: god was the word.

There is nothing to sort out. The Issue is the position of the noun ('theos'- god). As I've pointed out previously, the singular predicate noun 'theos' occurs before the verb in both verses above. Thus, the predicate noun is describing Paul and 'the Word' as 'a god'. The noun is not identifying the subject as 'ho theos' (or 'the God').

Nobody, not even Marc translates Acts 28:6 to read 'he (Paul) was God'. But regarding John 1:1, for the sake of the false trinity dogma and under instruction from apostates in the Vatican, Marc and his band of trinitarians throw away Greek grammar, ignore the context and say, 'the Word was God'.
---David8318 on 4/3/14


Cluny: I wish G4 would've began by telling us Adam's age at the time of Cain & Abel's birth. That would've closed the time lapse age gap considerably.

So, in conclusion Adam & Eve may have lived in the garden 1, 3, 7, 10 or somewhere between 40 days before they were booted out OR maybe (more realistically) it was more like 33.5 years ~ give or take a few years, approximately. "Most definitely" God alone knows. :)
---Leon on 4/2/14


A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion." (Pv. 18:2, ESV)

"A whip for the horse, a bridle for the donkey, and a rod for the back of fools. Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him yourself. Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes." (Pv. 26:3-5, ESV)

"If a wise man has an argument with a fool, the fool only rages and laughs, and there is no quiet." (Pv. 29:9)

I do wish the moderator(s) would do something constructive about the matter.
---Leon on 4/2/14


Marc, David isn't there He is busy worshiping his three Gods: God Almighty, Mighty God, and the little guy "a god."
---Warwick on 4/2/14


There is only one true God.
All other gods are false.
If certain organizations want to rely on a false god for their salvation, It is between them and God/god.
As for us that rely on only one God for our salvation, all we can do is preach and pray.
2Co 2:15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: To the one we are the savour of death unto death, and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things? For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.
---micha9344 on 4/2/14




The idea of God (who is not man but Spirit) being three separate Gods is not only impossible as God is omnipresent i.e. He is not limited to time and space as are we.

I believe the following explains the Trinity in terms we of limited knowledge and intelligence, can understand.

We live in a universe made up of 3 separate things-space, matter and time. No one confuses the substance of any of these with the other.

Matter is not space, nor is it time. Time is not matter or space and so on. Though being one entity they are three separate things.

Trinitarians do not believe in 3 separate Gods as David falsely says but one God (Spirit) who chooses to deal with us three separate persons.
---Warwick on 4/2/14


David, how come you can't think for yourself? How come you just write down everything Brooklyn tells you to?

David thinks Acts 28:6 and John 1:1 have the same construction. Do they? Let's read the word-for-word interlinear from the Greek.

Acts 28:6: god him was

John 1:1: god was the word.

Note the different syntax (in Greek) i.e. the position of the verb in relation to subject and verb. Also in Greek note the different forms of theos used.

Let's ask our resident Greek expert, David, to sort this out. David, are you there?
---marc on 4/2/14


'there's ONE Dave family & all 3 persons in the Dave family are 100%, equal'- Leon.

Leon again confirming his polytheism. Leon believes there is a "family" of Almighty God's: Father, Son and HolySpirit.

So in Leon's "family" who are all apparently 100% equal, Father and Mother Leon are the same age as Baby Leon! They also all have the same memories and experiences! This is of course complete nonsense and reveals the ridiculous levels to which trinitarians will stoop to 'explain' their equally riduculous false dogma.

What you preach Leon is Plato's philosophy of metaphysics which pagan Greek philosophers revelled in and to which Platonizing early church 'Fathers' were drawn to like flies to dung.
---David8318 on 4/2/14


'His unbiblical comments have completely derailed this blog. Again, I do wish the moderator(s) would do something constructive about the matter'- Leon.

I agree Leon. I wish cultic Elder would actually bring himself to comment on the theme of this blog rather than spout these lies:

1. 'God says Jesus is creator'. No where in the Bible does God say Jesus is creator.

2. 'God says He did (rise in his physical body)'. 1 Pe.3:18 says Christ was 'put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit' (ASV).

3. 'Only JW members will be saved'. Elder's spiritual impotence causes him to believe the un-Biblical trinity is the way to salvation! Jesus did not worship a trinity.

Elder's lies know no bounds!
---David8318 on 4/2/14


In David's cultic belief and indoctrination the false book, New World Translation teaches him the following lies.

1. Jesus is Michael the archangel who became man

(God says Jesus is creator.)

2. Jesus did not rise in His physical body

(God says He did)

3. Only JW members will be saved

(God says whosoever believes will be saved.)

So, when David posts or calls people names we know that is a lie also.
---Elder on 4/2/14




'Strongaxe you hypocrite!'

Strongaxe, I'll remind you of Jesus' words when he spoke out against apostates of his day.

'Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you resemble whitewashed graves...'- Matt.23:27.

When there is hypocrisy, I have no problem in following Jesus' example and point out that hypocrisy. There is nothing un-Christian about that.

You complained that I 'hijack' blogs (3/30/14) which is untrue. Your opening comment had no relevance to the theme of this blog yet you hypocritically point a bent finger at me!
---David8318 on 4/2/14


'His unbiblical comments have completely derailed this blog'- Leon.

This is exactly what you achieved in taking issue with the Bible at 1 Cor.15:45.

It was your trinitarian pride and arrogance Leon that took issue with the Bible when it compares Jesus to Adam.

I merely suggested that perhaps, just maybe as 'the last Adam' (Jesus) was 33.5 years old when he died, could the 'first Adam' have been 33.5 years old when he sinned?

It was you who "derailed" the blog by taking issue with 1 Cor.15:45 based on your own pernicious trinity dogma.
---David8318 on 4/2/14


"A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion." (Pv. 18:2, ESV)

"A whip for the horse, a bridle for the donkey, and a rod for the back of fools. Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him yourself. Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes." (Pv. 26:3-5, ESV)

"If a wise man has an argument with a fool, the fool only rages and laughs, and there is no quiet." (Pv. 29:9)


I have nothing further to say to David. His unbiblical comments have completely derailed this blog. Again, I do wish the moderator(s) would do something constructive about the matter.
---Leon on 4/2/14


'grammatical gymnastics concerning John 1:1'

Well its the same 'grammatical gymnastics' which is used at Acts 28:6. Paul was bitten by a snake. People thought he was sure to die. When he didnt, the people believed he was 'theos'. The same singular predicate 'theos' applied to 'the Word' at John 1:1.

Nobody, not even trinitarians translate Acts 28:6 to read 'he (Paul) was God'. Context and grammar demand the indefinite article at Acts 28:6 to read 'he was a god'.

The same rule of grammar is used at John 1:1, 'the Word was a god'. Warwick and his apostate band of trinitarians abandon context and grammar at John 1:1 for the sake of their false pagan trinity dogma.
---David8318 on 4/2/14


This is trinitarian polytheism." [?!!!]

No Dave! Because of your religious programming (indoctrinated confusion) you're trying very hard not to understand what I & others are plainly saying. :)

Many on CN have said & continue to say THERE'S ONLY "ONE GOD" & within the 1 Godhead there are 3 distinct persons.

Let's say there are 3 people in your ONE family surnamed DAVE. There's Father Dave (the head), Mother Dave (2nd in command) & you (Dave, Jr.).

So, there's ONE Dave family & all 3 persons in the Dave family are 100%, equal DAVE. There must be a hierarchy of authority because there can't be three heads in the family.
---Leon on 4/1/14


David8318:

You wrote: Strongaxe you hypocrite!

Now there is a loving, Christ-like response. Please justify it by explaining just what I am saying but doing otherwise.

I have commented on the theme of this thread. ... It was Leon who took the thread off theme ... introducing a trinitarian argument, not me. I couldn't care less what you people believe. ...

I commented, not because the trinitarian argument was hijacking this thead into unrelated subjects (because that happens frequently, by many people), but rather because one blog after another gets hijacked into an argument about trinitarianism. And your constant commenting on it at length shows you DO care what others believe.
---StrongAxe on 4/1/14


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David, your grammatical gymnastics concerning John 1:1 reminds me that you JW's have a trinity all of your own. How come? You of course believe in Jehovah who is Almighty God. You also believe Jesus is the Mighty God (Isaiah 9:6 but not Almighty God), and you believe Jesus is also a god as per John 1:1, as you have written below. So your trinity is Almighty God, Mighty God and trundling up the rear "a god." You are a Babylonian polytheist Trinitarian aren't you!
---Warwick on 4/1/14


David's reasoning:

1. If a specific word X is not mentioned in Bible, then X cannot exist e.g. Trinity is not mentioned, therefore the Trinity does not exist.

Try this one on for size, David:

1. The expression 'theocratic organisation' isn't specifically stated in the Bible, therefore the JWs can't be the "Lord's theocratic organisation' (as claimed in The Watchtower, Feb 1, 1952, p. 80) because it doesn't exist.

Oh, I can hear David already: "Stop it, stop it...your logic is confusing me."
---Marc on 4/1/14


"I wish the Mod(s) would take the initiative & not post blog comments from people IF they go 'OFF TOPIC'. Leon 3/31/14"

Leon - so do I and I am sure that, in the past, entries have suddenly disappeared from the blogs because they have caused serious offense. It would be better if they are removed before being posted but being removed after the uproar some of them cause is better than having them remain for others to see.

We should be able to post here in full knowledge that, anything offensive or heretic, could be removed.

Other websites with similar Qs and As format do it.
---Rita_H on 4/1/14


'Scripture makes it crystal clear the One Jehovah God exists in three distinct persons: Father, Son & Holy Spirit'- Leon (3/30/14)

This is trinitarian polytheism.

Christians on the otherhand worship the God Jesus worshipped ('YHWH' Mt.4:10).

Trinitarian rendering of John 1:1 confirms their polytheism. Jo.1:1 says in part, '...theos en ho logos' (god was the word). With a singular predicate noun occurring before the verb the noun can according to context describe the verb.

Thus, the singular predicate 'theos' (no def.article 'ho') at Jo.1:1 describes 'logos' as 'godlike', or 'a god'. It does not identify the logos as the God it 'is with'. Unless of course you're a polythesit trinitarian!
---David8318 on 4/1/14


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David, you
Believe what you will. You are confusing new Christians on this blog just like Markv did. You are too dumb if you think there is no Father, Son and Holy Ghost. people know that without reading the bible. Yes, elder does believe in the trinity because it's absolutely a fact. How did you get saved (if in fact you say u r)? It is impossible to be saved without the Holy Ghost. So don't tell me it isn't so, you can just say you don't believe it which doesn't mean anything.
---shira4368 on 4/1/14


David8318://You must be an "Elder" of the Stupid Brigade//

David, are you reflecting who JWs are by this abuse of Elder or you are broadcasting to all that you have a problem they can counsel you on.
---Adetunji on 4/1/14


Shira- if you think the word "trinity" is found in the King James Bible or in any translation, you like Elder are away with the fairies.

The confusion is all yours. 1000's are abandoning the mystery trinity doctrine in favour of Biblical truth. People are not as gullible and inept as you and Elder to be led astray by words of men.

Jesus did not worship a 'trinity'. He never uttered the word. Thus you do not follow Jesus, neither do you worship the God Jesus worshipped. Your salvation is in the lies promoted by the likes of Elder and Warwick.
---David8318 on 4/1/14


"You must be an "Elder" of the Stupid Brigade."David8318 / MarkV

If the statement were true you'd be my number 1 student. I'd have to keep you after school because of your learning disability.

Your post reveals what you are. You copy others because you can't think on your own.

You place Jesus on the same level as Satan. We've shown you the Scriptures teach Jesus is God Creator.

You don't believe them why would you believe us?

What power do you think the blood of Christ has? Did Jesus God come in the flesh or not?

Again, How come you are not on a JW cult site? Don't they have one?

How come you don't answer Luke's question?

Your post reveals your anti-Christ spirit.
---Elder on 4/1/14


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Elder, Warwick, etc.: Shake the dust off your feet & don't engage the serpent in conversation.

"A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion." (Pv. 18:2, ESV)

"A whip for the horse, a bridle for the donkey, and a rod for the back of fools. Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him yourself. Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes." (Pv. 26:3-5, ESV)

"If a wise man has an argument with a fool, the fool only rages and laughs, and there is no quiet." (Pv. 29:9)
---Leon on 4/1/14


Elder you like MarkV are a dead pagans walking. Your froth and bluster is meaningless and empty. But it is humerous at least. There's nothing better that gets a pagan trinitarian screaming like a banshee than the clear Biblical reasoning of a JW.

Yes, 1 Cor.15 does discuss the resurrection. But the resurrection is based on the death of the 'last Adam' (Jesus), 1 Cor.15:45. Both the first and last Adam's were created. You cannot (unless your name is Elder) compare God with a created being. God is not the 'last Adam'.

You must be an "Elder" of the Stupid Brigade. You and MarkV are both pagan trinitarians with the single purpose of creating mystery and misery around God's name and character.
---David8318 on 4/1/14


David, you are boringly repetitive.

As explained before God has written in terms we understand. We know a human son is equal in substance with his father. So when Jesus is called Son of man this refers to His humanity, born of Mary, of whom the coming Son of God (Son-therefore of equal substance with God) said "A body you prepared for me" Hebrews 10:5. This body is Jesus the man through whom the Word "became flesh" John 1:14-the incarnation.

Jesus is obviously flesh, and likewise God who is not flesh but Spirit.

Within this reality we have the Son of man, flesh, "the last Adam" who perished upon the cross, and rose again for our redemption.
---Warwick on 4/1/14


David, you argue that Jesus Christ is not God so you say all sorts of things against Him yet if you did not believe that Jesus Christ is God why does the charter of the Watchtower Society of Pennsylvania, state in Article 2,
"And for public Christian worship of Almighty God and Christ Jesus?"
If He is not God why does your charter advice Jehovah witnesses to worship Jesus Christ? Can you explain that?
The witnesses in history worshipped Jesus Christ, wrote how to worship Him and why. And here you claim He is not God. So why do you worship just a man as you say?
---Luke on 4/1/14


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Ahh, David. Welcome back.

So, where were we up to? That's right.

As we all know, JWs have to do works (e.g. knock on doors, attend meetings, not save their child's life by giving her a blood transfusion, not have an eye transplant to restore sight) in order to maybe, possibly, no way near certain, obtain eternal life. David and his gang have to add to Jesus' work on the cross (oh, sorry, that's another item added to the list...silly me...never say 'cross', say, 'torture stake')by bribing God, through an offering up of their own righteousness (read, self-righteousness).

I'm a simple man. I prefer to follow Paul's advice: Romans 4:1-8, rather than Brooklyn's.
---Marc on 4/1/14


David, the only way you understand the entity you call "jesus" is through the unholy and condemned neo-Arian Russell-Rutherford mystery of iniquity.

See? I can hurl brickbats, too.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/31/14


Warwick, and as I have pointed out many times with you before, the only way you understand Jesus is through Plato's pagan philosophy of metaphysics- 'nature and substance'. You are a Neo-platonic trinitarian. You are forced to explain Jesus in terms of nature and substance. "Jesus is the Son of God therefore he must be God" is your rehetoric. This is pure Neo-platonic thinking. If you deviate from it you'll be frog marched out of your cult C & MA outfit.

The common denominator with you trinitarians is that you all believe Jesus is eternal. You thus deny the death of Christ. This is where the trinity is antichrist. Jesus is the Christ, not Almighty God.
---David8318 on 3/31/14


Jesus Christ is the eternal Son of God! He is not a created being. He is the creator, Heb 1:2.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

For God to give us his Son he had to first have a Son.

Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

For God to send his Son, Christ must have been his Son in eternity past.

Do you need more?
---trey on 3/31/14


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"A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion." (Pv. 18:2, ESV)

"A whip for the horse, a bridle for the donkey, and a rod for the back of fools. Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him yourself. Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes." (Pv. 26:3-5, ESV)

"If a wise man has an argument with a fool, the fool only rages and laughs, and there is no quiet." (Pv. 29:9)
---Leon on 3/31/14


"A created being got us into sin and death, a created being will release us from sin and death- Ro.5:17."
David8318

The above David thought only comes from the preverted New World Translation and a non-christian.

I thought David didn't care what we believed. How come he is on a JW cult site? Don't they have one?

Jesus, God in the flesh. Angels, devils, His enemies and His friends/saved ones know it but David can't figure it out.
---Elder on 3/31/14


If created beings could release us from sin, the Jerusalem Temple would still be functioning.

\\I look forward to everlasting life on paradise earth as promised by Jesu\\

"Paradise earth"--another phrase you will find nowhere in the Bible.

I realize that's the best that Jehovah's False Witnesses can hope for: second-class salvation offered by a second class entity they call "jesus."

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/31/14


'If Jesus were a created being it would cause the God provided Salvation to lack a pure sacrifice'- Elder.

A created being got us into sin and death, a created being will release us from sin and death- Ro.5:17.

Elder doesn't have the faith that a created being can release man from sin and death. On the contrary, the Bible says Jesus was 'without sin' (Heb.4:15). Jesus the son of God was a perfect, sinless man and a perfect sacrifce. Jesus, the 'last Adam' releases us from the condemnation of the 'first Adam'- 1 Cor.15:45.

I look forward to everlasting life on paradise earth as promised by Jesus- Matt.5:5, Luke 23:43. Elder denies the death of Jesus saying 'Jesus is eternal'. Elder won't get anywhere with that belief.
---David8318 on 3/31/14


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Pete glad to have you back. I missed you. Call if you can. God Bless.

"I couldn't care less what you people believe."
MarkV as David8318 (same evil spirit)

Then why don't you crawl back into your viper pit and play somewhere else.

Tell us what time line for posting is Strongaxe supposed to go by. It's like saying, "Who invited you?" Well, who did?

The I Cor 15:45 contrast is between a spiritual and a natural body, a body of death and one immortal. I Cor 15 is about the resurrection.

Strongaxe just as well castigate one who is spiritually brain dead. What's he got to lose?


---Elder on 3/31/14


2John 1:9-10
9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him, 11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.
HI Elder I'm back
---Willow on 3/31/14


Strongaxe you hypocrite! I have commented on the theme of this thread. My opening comment dealt with the Bibles comparison between Adam and Jesus- 1 Cor.15:45.

It was Leon who took the thread off theme by taking issue with the Bible at 1 Cor.15:45 and introducing a trinitarian argument, not me. I couldn't care less what you people believe. The Bible speaks for itself... Jesus shares equality with the created man Adam.

You haven't commented on the theme of this thread whatsoever. Yet you hypocritically castigate those who have.
---David8318 on 3/31/14


'Neither is Kindgom Hall'

I didn't say 'Kingdom Hall' was a Bible word!
---David8318 on 3/31/14


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"...Why do you...hijack one blog after another to turn it into a forum to condemn trinitarianism...? If it offends you..., why not create another blog to discuss the subject specifically, rather than... divert...other blogs into pointless arguments... totally unrelated to the subject...?"
---StrongAxe on 3/30/14


'Axe: I agree wholeheartedly! However, people like David thrive on their father's "confusion". We can't expect such people to responsibly do as you suggested. Therefore, I wish the Mod(s) would take the initiative & not post blog comments from people IF they go "OFF TOPIC".

I pray God will lead the Mod(s) to put a hedge of protection around the blogs...
---Leon on 3/31/14


David, I've been saved a very long time and your comment is exactly why new Christians get confused. I don't know your beliefs but you can bet there is the trinity in my bible. Now if it isn't in yours I suggest you throw your heresy book in the trash and get you a King James Bible and start studying "Father", "Son" and "Holy Spirit".
---shira4368 on 3/31/14


"Bible" is not even a Bible word, for that matter.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/31/14


\\Its is not even a Bible word\\

Neither is Kindgom Hall.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/31/14


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Shira, trinity is not a Bible teaching. Its is not even a Bible word as you have demonstrated many times before in your inability to find the word trinity in the Bible.

'Trinity' is a man-made word to describe a man-made false doctrine. Jesus is God's son. The Bible equates Jesus Christ to the created being Adam. Jesus is 'the last Adam'- 1 Cor.15:45.
---David8318 on 3/31/14


David
John chapter 1:
-1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
-2 The same was in the beginning with God.
-3 All things were made by him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

-14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us

Gen 1:
-1 In the beginning God created... ("everything that was created")

Read it David even though you won't believe it.

The problem is you just can't connect the "spiritual" dots or you want to push false doctrine.

Either way your boat has a hole in it! Use wisdom, heed what folks are telling/showing you.
---Elder on 3/30/14


David8318:

You wrote: Oh dear... it didn't take very long for a Neo-platonic trinitarian in the form of elder to crawl out of the woodwork on this thread.

Why do you so often hijack one blog after another to turn it into a forum to condemn trinitarianism (which, by the way, happens to be the belief shared by most Christians, with a notable exception of Jehovah's Witnesses)? If it offends you so much, Why not create another blog to discuss tha subject specifically, rather than to divert so many other blogs into pointless arguments about this subject that is totally unrelated to the subject of those blogs?
---StrongAxe on 3/30/14


David: That really turned your crank & made you jump way out of the box, didn't it? Scripture makes it abundantly clear Jesus, the Son of God, is very God! Scripture makes it crystal clear the One Jehovah God exists in three distinct persons: Father, Son & Holy Spirit! The Bible plainly says Jesus, the Word of God, made all things that were made in the beginning! Jesus wasn't, He isn't a created being! He is the Creator who made for Himself an earthen vessel to inhabit during His earthly ministry. And yes, the Bible says Jesus is/has always been eternal.

What you say is fallacious! Elder didn't say Jesus didn't die! If your Jesus isn't the Jesus written of in the Bible, then like Cluny said, you believe in another Jesus.
---Leon on 3/30/14


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"Oh dear... it didn't take very long for a Neo-platonic trinitarian in the form of elder to crawl out of the woodwork on this thread."
David8318

And it didn't take long for the satanic MarkV servant of Lucifer to surface in the form of David8318 full of lies.

If Jesus were a created being it would cause the God provided Salvation to lack a pure sacrifice.

Your comment shows your lack of spiritual and biblical knowledge.

I John 2:22-23 & 4:1-3 describe you perfectly.

But if this Gospel is hid it is hid to those who are lost.

PS: Your only heaven is on earth so enjoy it while you can!
---Elder on 3/30/14


David, as I have pointed out before you are like a political party member manning an election booth. You must agree with the party (read Watchtower) line or be booted out of the party. As a JW you have no freedom to believe anything other than the WTS line. You are therefore a hostile witness.

We have covered this multiple times before as to Jesus but you end up promoting only (changing) JW dogma over Scripture. Jesus Son of Man (i.e. human) died and rose again now having His perfect resurrection body. Jesus the Son of God (i.e. God) cannot die, as He is eternal. This is what Scripture says however I will not bother giving quotes again as you ignore and reject anything which contradicts you indoctrinated beliefs.
---Warwick on 3/30/14


David, if you don't believe In The trinity, then how can you ever be a child of the King? The trinity is all thru the King James Bible and if you were to listen to bro elder you would learn something that you obviously do not know. God, Jesus, Holy Spirit are eternal and I have eternal life the moment I was born into the family of God.
---shira4368 on 3/30/14


\\"The Bible does this because Jesus shares equality not with God, but with Adam. Jesus is a created being (Col.1:15).
David8318\\

WRONG!

If you believe this, you're believing in a false Jesus, therefore you don't believe in Jesus at all and are still in your sins.

Repent!

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/30/14


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'Jesus is God, He is eternal and He created all that was created'- Elder.

Oh dear... it didn't take very long for a Neo-platonic trinitarian in the form of elder to crawl out of the woodwork on this thread.

Elder believes Jesus 'is eternal'- these are elder's words. Elder does not believe Jesus died. Elder believes Jesus is eternal. Trinitarianism has led elder into apostasy, denying the death of our Lord Jesus Christ, denying the redemptive value of Jesus' death. How sad.

Of course the Bible does not say 'Jesus is God'. No where in John 1 does it even remotely suggest Jesus is the Almighty God and creator... thats it!
---David8318 on 3/30/14


Thanks Elder for saving me the time. :)

"...Jesus purchases[ed] Adam's offspring. The 'last Adam' thus becomes a 'life giving spirit', our repurchaser- 1 Cor.15:45, Heb.9:12."
---David8318 on 3/29/14

David: If you mean Jesus is our "redeemer", I agree.

By the way, a 33.5 year old Adam might've meant he & Eve had about 30 years to be fruitful & multiply. Eve may have been able to easily have multiple babies (all girls) at a time. Whereas, we think 9 months to birth, maybe her gestation time was considerably less, e.g., 5 months.
---Leon on 3/30/14


"The Bible does this because Jesus shares equality not with God, but with Adam. Jesus is a created being (Col.1:15).
David8318

Col 1:15 doesn't even begin to indicate Jesus is a created being. Jesus is God, He is eternal and He created all that was created. He took on the flesh of mankind and is our sinless sacrifice for our sin.

There is no way you can study the Bible and come up with the false notion that Jesus is a created being.

John 1 is a good place to learn all that I have told you here. Jesus always was and took on flesh. He is not created but is Creator. That's it!
---Elder on 3/30/14


Leon... well done, I'm impressed with your reasoning. You have redeemed yourself. Of course you have every right to disagree with me as I do you.

You state: 'Should we really try & compare Jesus, the Creator, God-man, to Adam?'

Its not me who compares Jesus to Adam... the Bible does that. 1 Cor.15:45 clearly refers to Jesus as the 'last Adam'. The Bible does this because Jesus shares equality not with God, but with Adam. Jesus is a created being (Col.1:15). Created by his Father- Jehovah God. Jesus is his only-begotten son.

I agree Jesus did not have a wife. Rather, Jesus purchases Adam's offspring. The 'last Adam' thus becomes a 'life giving spirit', our repurchaser- 1 Cor.15:45, Heb.9:12.
---David8318 on 3/29/14


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"...for the length between Adam's creation & sin, Jesus is scripturally described as 'the last Adam'- 1 Cor. 15:45. [He] was 33.5 years old when [crucified]. Was the first Adam 33.5 years old when he sinned?"
---David8318 on 3/28/14


Dave, I think the more interesting question is: Since the 1st Adam had Eve did Jesus also have a wife (as some suppose she was Mary Magdalene)? No, I don't think so!

Should we really try & compare Jesus, the Creator, God-man, to Adam? Adam (the creature), as shown in Scripture, pales horribly in comparison to sinless Jesus. But, upon rethinking, I suppose your 33.5 age for Adam is plausible considering he was made a full grown, seed bearing, male! :)
---Leon on 3/29/14


"Leon, there's nothing wrong with reasoning on the scriptures. That's what this site is all about...You need to man up spiritually [:)?] & try to provide a scriptural point on the issue..."
---David8318 on 3/29/14


Dave: Your theory is fundamentally flawed because Scripture says God "RESTED" from creating the heavens & the earth. (G2:2) Rested is past tense as in something that was done. You cited Hebrews 4:10 which basically says God stopped working because it was complete & He "DID" (past tense) rest. That in no way implies nor means He is still resting. Afterall, God is Creator, not only of our world & galaxy, but of all other galaxies in the universe.
---Leon on 3/29/14


I forgot to mention that other ancient writers have proposed same day as their creation for their fall, 1 day, 3 days, 7 days, and 10 days.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/29/14


Leon... there is nothing wrong with reasoning on the scriptures. That's what this site is all about, isn't it? You need to man up spiritually and try to provide a scriptural point on the issue at hand.
---David8318 on 3/29/14


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David: I think maybe you're trying a little too hard dude. That's gotta really hurt the ol' noggin! Come on, deep breath!!! :)
---Leon on 3/28/14


Micha: HUH?! You pulled that rabbit out of G1:28? Well alrighty then. I think we'll have a really good laugh one day in heaven. :)
---Leon on 3/28/14


I think the more interesting question is: When after the creation of Adam did the 7th day begin?

Fundamentalists will say the 6th day is a 24 hour period as is the 7th day of God's rest period. But I believe God's day of rest is still ongoing and will last until the end of Christs 1000 year reign- Matt.12:8, Heb.4:10.

If we knew when God's 7th day of rest started we would know when Christ's 1000 yr reign would end... and thus when it will begin.

As for the length between Adams creation and sin, Jesus is scripturally described as 'the last Adam'- 1 Cor15:45. The 'last Adam' was 33 and a half years old when he was put to death. Was the first Adam 33.5 years old when he sinned?
---David8318 on 3/28/14


Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply
This is day 6. It would seem odd to tell this just to one of a kind.
Speaking of "kinds", that is what Adam named, because afterward they varied "after their kind".
So bats are bats, dogs are dogs, etc.
Our current Linnaeus classification would be somewhere around the "family."
God only brought the land and air animals to Adam to name.
That would only be in the "Chordata" phylum with the Aves, Mammalia, Reptilia, and maybe Amphibia as classes.
With about 70 Reptilia families, 148 mammals, 224 aves, and 49 amphibians, Adam would only have to name about 491 creatures.
Easy enough for a day.
---micha9344 on 3/28/14


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That's an interesting idea Cluny. I've never heard that one before. In my spirit however, I'm not connecting the Bible context dots with the idea. Sounds to me like yet another attempt to square peg a round hole. Maybe somebody else can expand upon it where it would come doctrinally clear to us.

Sleep well. Peace! :)
---Leon on 3/28/14


Lest anyone think I'm doing a drive-by posting and just trying to stir up strife, I'm ready to post an idea now.

Some ancient Christians have proposed that 40 days passed between Adam and Eve's creation and their fall.

Forty days is a significant period of time in the Bible. Moses was on the mountain for 40 days. The Savior was tempted for 40 days in the wilderness, and then remained on earth 40 days after the Resurrection.

This, however, is not a matter I spend sleepless nights worrying about.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/28/14


Speculate away to your heart's content Leon.
---Rita_H on 3/26/14

Translation: Speculate away to your heart is content, Leon.

-Arf, arf, arf, arf- Leon

Only a dog knows how to translate dog.
---aka on 3/27/14


"Speculate away to your heart's content Leon. I've already said what I wished to say on the subject."
---Rita_H on 3/26/14


Translation: Arf, arf, arf, arf, arf, arf...
---Leon on 3/27/14


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Speculate away to your heart's content Leon. I've already said what I wished to say on the subject.
---Rita_H on 3/26/14


"...Adam & Eve were made on the 6th day G1:27-28)... Adam named all the animals on the 6th day...Leon & I disagree..."---micha9344 on 3/25/14

Yes, we do disagree, significantly, Micha. :)

I.) G1:27 indicates Adam was made 1st (on the 6th day) with male & female (intersexual) attributes. Adam was, so to speak, the dominant outie & Eve (wombman) was his innie. God put "him" (singular: Adam) in the garden. (G2:15) "Then" God took the rib (bone, innie) & made Eve on a day following the 1st week.

Adam named ALL the living creatures on day six? If so, he only had time to name categories (mammal, fish, fowl, insects), not specific groups within categories.
---Leon on 3/26/14


"...I believe Satan appeared on the 7th day... Adam & the woman took her curse & subsequently, how she received her name,"the mother of all living."
---micha9344 on 3/25/14


II. The serpent snuck into the garden while God was resting (chillin' napping)? Bible chapter & verse please. :)

G1:28, God told Adam to be fruitful n multiply. Did Adam obey? Eve was called the mother of all living "because" of the G1:28 causation. She "WAS" at that very moment (G3:20) THE MOTHER OF ALL LIVING! That is, she already had children, likely all girls.

Micha: When God told Eve her child bearing was going to be increasingly difficult, she understood Him completely. :)
---Leon on 3/26/14


Leon and I have discussed this before on another thread and have varying thoughts on the matter.
I believe Satan appeared on the seventh day, the day God set apart as holy.
Adam and Eve were made on the sixth day(Gen 1:27-28), so Adam named all the animals on the sixth day.
Patience is a fruit of the Spirit and I don't believe Satan is blessed with it.
Where Leon and I disagree is how Adam and the woman took her curse and, subsequently, how she received her name,
"the mother of all living."
---micha9344 on 3/25/14


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Rita: Based upon what we know, from what the Bible says, we can pretty easily begin thinking outside the box in the matter. 1.) God gave Adam dominion over all the creatures He made before man. God then put Adam to work naming every land, air & sea creature. How long did that take in terms of days, weeks, months or years? God alone knows! 2.) In the interim, because man was alone, God performed surgery on him & made Eve for him. How long was it before the Adams started becoming fruitful & multiplied like God had commanded them? Do we really dare suppose Eve didn't have children in the Garden? After the fall, God spoke to Eve like she knew about pain in child bearing before the fall...How long? Does it matter? Maybe!
---Leon on 3/24/14


Cluny,FWIW, Satan had to get to them before Eve became pregnant in order to capture the whole human race.
If children were borne before they sinned they would not have been under the curse.
My guess is "short period!"
---1st_cliff on 3/24/14


I don't usually speculate, but I couldn't resist this one.

We don't really know how long Adam and Eve were in the garden before they fell, but we do know it was before the birth of Cain and Able. Adam and Eve were banished from the garden before the birth of Cain and Able, before God commanded them to be fruitful and multiply. Another piece of information that we do know is that Adam was one hundred and thirty years old when he had Seth which was sometime after the birth of Cain and Able.
---Steveng on 3/24/14


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