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How To Survive Rapture

The never ending debate whether there is or isn't a Rapture continues to divide Christians. When there isn't a Rapture how will a person know the beginning and the end of the tribulation period? How will you survive for seven years when you aren't Raptured?

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Samuel I have tried and tried to show you verses and chapters. I tried to get you to see what question Jesus answered in Matt 24.

You want a verse that says Matt 24 is not about the Rapture when it explains that itself.

There is very little more I can do. If you are not convinced by the word meanings in the Bible I can't convince you.

But I will tell you and Cluny the Rapture takes place in between Rev 3:22 and 4:1.

The 2nd Coming is in Ch 19. They are two different events.
---Elder on 4/13/14


Hello!

Jubilees since:

~560 BC Cyrus the Great

+ 70 AD = 630 years...

- 490 - 49 - 49 - 42 = 0.

~70 AD + 7 : 13 Jubilees...77 AD.

490 x 4 = 4 cycles: ~2037 AD,

But, if the cycle is measured from about 1406 BC - 490 - 490 - 490 = 64 AD

64 + 490 + 490 + 490 + 490 = +-2024...

50 years x 2 = 100///

1406/50 = 28.12

1406 + 2014 = 3420,/50 = 68.4

68 AD + {50 x 2}20 = 2068,

- 50 = 2018...
---Johannes_Davsidon on 4/13/14


//We are gathered to escort Him to earth as He returns as Judge at the end of the Tribulation.//
And your scripture for this erroneous statement is found in what commentary?
Are you one who still has Christ hanging on a cross?
---michael_e on 4/13/14


\\"then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air"(AND MAKE A U-TURN AND RETURN TO EARTH??)\\

EXACTLY!

You don't think the Lord makes a U-turn in mid air, do you?

We are gathered to escort Him to earth as He returns as Judge at the end of the Tribulation.

You didn't think it was any other way, did you?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/13/14


Dear shira Elder is a nice person and I respect him. But I need scripture to prove my doctrine. Not because He does not think so. Also you are correct just reading the Bible does not prove you know all of it. But posting what the Bible says and not just saying words about no it does not mean what it says. Proves nothing.

At the Rapture the Saints are resurrected. At the Second Coming all the saints are resurrected. Do the dead saints go back into the ground so the can be resurrected twice?

How is Christ Coming to get his saints not the Second coming? Is it not JESUS coming the second time? True He does not touch the earth then. But then Matthew 24 does not say he touches the earth then.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/13/14




//There's still not a pre-trib rapture for anybody.//
"then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air"(AND MAKE A U-TURN AND RETURN TO EARTH??)
Your commentaries have been wrong before
---michael_e on 4/13/14


\\"then WE which are alive and remain shall be caught up"
We are believers\\

There's still not a pre-trib rapture for anybody.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/12/14


I present to you all a simple outline that may help folks divide what is really going to happen according to the Revelation.

Chapter & Theme of Chapter
1 Christ Revealed

2-3 The Churches Revealed

4 The Rapture Revealed

5-18 The Tribulation Revealed

19 The 2nd Coming Revealed

20 The Millennium & Final
Judgment Revealed

21-22 The New Heaven & Earth
Revealed
---Elder on 4/13/14


I know there are many folks who believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture.

If you are one of them, can you please tell me how you fit what is written in(Revelation 20:4-6) into the teaching?
---David on 4/13/14


//And what does the Bible say will happen to those who say, "Peace and safety"?//
"For when THEY shall say, Peace and safety,"
They are unbelievers
"then WE which are alive and remain shall be caught up"
We are believers
---michael_e on 4/12/14




Samuel, it doesn't matter if you read the bible thru a thousand times. that does not mean anything. you still need context. bro elder is sharp on the bible, listen to him.
---shira4368 on 4/12/14


Samuel
My mistake. I thought you believed in the pre-trib rapture teaching and wanted to know how (Revelation 20:4-6) fit into the teaching.
---David on 4/12/14


You will know, like everyone else, because all of the nations will go to war with the false prophet gog beast from the earth as written.

This is the time of the commerce war with the world in the implementation of the mark of the beast {number of the name of the beast from the earth with the image of the beast from the sea} which is 666.

Isaac is He who Laughs.

To Mock is?
---Johannes_Davsidon on 4/11/14


Samuelbb7 you say "1. Both Matt24 and Mark 13 are a catching away. Same thing."

->They are not the same thing, even the words are different. If they were the same the words would mean the same thing.

"3. At Second Coming."
->Nope. The marriage supper takes place in Heaven with the Church Age Saints called the Bride of Christ. This occurs while the Tribulation is going on on the earth.

"4. Agreed. They are kept from the wrath while here on earth like Israel in Egypt."

->The Church will not be on earth during the Tribulation.

After Rev 3:22 we see that the Church has been removed.
---Elder on 4/11/14


//Again, the Church Saints will not go through God's wrath.
You are not "connecting the dots."
---Elder on 4/11/14 //
Elder you are 100% correct.
What most fail to realize, is that although all the Bible is written for us, it is not all written to us.
---michael_e on 4/11/14


There's no such thing as a pre-trib pre-mill rapture.

Those expecting it will be the first to fall down and worship Antichrist.

"After all, how can this sweet man possibly be Antichrist? We're still here so the Rapture hasn't taken place yet. Once saved always saved, secure for time and eternity. I've got peace and safety."

And what does the Bible say will happen to those who say, "Peace and safety"?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/11/14


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Thanks.

62 x 7 = 434

434 was a Greek mina in grams./years...

7 x 7 = 49...

483... BC since The King Cyrus the Great.

+ 70 = 553...

Thus, the gap between in still 70, and possibly, plus 7 = 560.

576 - 560 = 16 years.

77 + 16 = 93 which is 100 - 7. One last 7, as written.

70 + 16 = 86.., + 14 Jacob...

If King Solomon was in the year ~1029 BC - 490 - 490 = 49 = 7 x 7.

606 + 21 Kings and 423 years...BC

~1029 + 40 Saul = 1069, + 2 Saul's Son = 1072 BC.

434 - 423 = 11 years Apostles...

So, 1072 + 70 Vespasian = 1142 years.

+ 2014 = 3,156 years. - 42 King Saul = 3114 Aztecan calendar as BC.
---Johannes_Davsidon on 4/11/14


1.A catching away/rapture and gathering of believers are two different groups and events.

2. You must understand who is being spoke to and who is being spoke about.

3. When do you think the Marriage Supper of the Lamb takes place and where? When does Bema Judgment take place?

4. Again, the Church Saints will not go through God's wrath.

You are not "connecting the dots." Elder

1. Both Matt24 and Mark 13 are a catching away. Same thing.

2. Agreed.

3. At Second Coming.

4. Agreed. They are kept from the wrath while here on earth like Israel in Egypt.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/11/14


~ means approximately

~483 could mean 4 or 3 or 10 or -3 or so what does that do to the 4 years.

Nice fit of something that is a very raw approximation.
---aka on 4/11/14


2014-(the year you were born)-(your age this past Dec 31) = 1 Because there is only one you.
Pick a group of numbers that have significance, throw around some mathematical functions until they match.
Eureka!! It must be true!!
---micha9344 on 4/11/14


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I never said there were three resurrections. (But there have been more than that in the Bible.) Elder

Oops missed this one.

You have three resurrections in your theology.

Rapture: Resurrection of all saints.

Second coming catching up into the clouds of all saints and resurrection of all saints. So you have this part twice.

After the thousand years change of living saints and resurrection of the wicked.

Do you know your template for the Seventh Weeks?
---Samuelbb7 on 4/11/14


560 Cyrus the Great - 490 = 70.

70 Cyrus the Great BC + 70 Vespasian AD = 120 Noah + 20 Yeshua.

33.655 - 20 Joshua = 13.655

years...

Extra month form: .655 = plus 1.86 extra months~ in the 6th month...

1.86 x 30 = 55.8 days...
\
1260 + 30 = 1290 in the middle of the week as written.

55.8 - 45~ days = 10.8 days.
---Johannes_Davsidon on 4/11/14


I believe that Darby was correct for this reason...

~483 BC + 70 + 7 = 560 BC

Which is 4 years into the Reign of King Cyrus of Persia as written in Daniel, Nehemiah, and Ezra.

Gap theory: 70 x 7 = 490 years, x 4 = 1960, + 49 years {7x7} = 2009...

46 BC The Temple Of Herod BC...

+ 3 = 49...

2009 + 33 .655 for the Ministry of Messiah = 2042.655...

- 21 Joshua = 2021.655~

Also notice: 666 x 10% = 66 2/3 which is the number of Books in the Canon.

666 x 3 = 1998...

24 hours/elders

1998 + 24 = 2022~...
---Johannes_Davsidon on 4/11/14


Samuelbb, I see why you don't understand. You read into comments.

I never said there were three resurrections. (But there have been more than that in the Bible.)

You can read all the books you want and still not receive the truth of the matter if you don't see the laid out plan.

A catching away/rapture and gathering of believers are two different groups and events.

You must understand who is being spoke to and who is being spoke about.

When do you think the Marriage Supper of the Lamb takes place and where? When does Bema Judgment take place?

Again, the Church Saints will not go through God's wrath.

You are not "connecting the dots."
---Elder on 4/11/14


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War will continue until the end is written.

1-4 plus 5, Fulfilled to the completion during the time of the false prophet gog is the Prophecy who rules for 1335 days or 3.655 years or 44 1/2 months along with 10 rulers. They will make commerce wars with the whole world is written. Then, 1-7 Seals/Trumpets/Bowls. Then, The Millennium. Then, The Second Resurrection.
---Johannes_Davsidon on 4/11/14


Elder I have read the Bible many times and have read books on both sides. What books have you read that oppose your viewpoint?
Until Darby the Rapture and the Second Coming were one. What source says two.
Correct the upper room was not a rapture.
We can tell which is symbolic by using the Old Testament prophets. For instance the Book of Daniel.
IIThess, Matthew 24, and Mark 13 all talk about the catching of the saints to meet JESUS in the air. These passages do not say JESUS sets his feet on the earth. JESUS comes back for his church is the Second Coming. Latter he does sit his feet on the earth for the Judgment at the resurrection of the wicked.

The Bible speaks of only two resurrections. Where do you get three?
---Samuelbb7 on 4/11/14


How can there be a pre-trib resurrection, if there are only two, and the first resurrection happens during the tribulation period?

This would mean, those in the first resurrection, are not all resurrected at the same time. David

David

There is no pre-tribulation
resurrection. Since the First Resurrection and Second Coming are the same event.

You are correct if there were about your statement. Which is why the Resurrection is at the end of the Tribulation when JESUS returns and takes his people to Heaven.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 4/11/14


Johannes_Davsidon, your views present major concerns. The 144,000, the riders that appear and Armageddon is a battle/war that take place during the Great Tribulation.

The Church Age/Bride of Christ is protected during this time.

Jesus promised and Paul wrote about being delivered from the wrath to come, I Thess 1.

God's wrath is poured out on the unrighteous never on the righteous.

Throughout the Bible there are 3 principles that are seen.
1. There is a preached or prophetic warning given.

2. The righteous is removed to safety/made safe.

3. The judgment/wrath of God falls on the unrighteous.

Your pattern doesn't fit the mold!
---Elder on 4/11/14


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Samuel
I don't understand.
You agree there are only two resurrections, and the First is during the tribulation period, as written in(Revelation 20:4-6).

How can there be a pre-trib resurrection, if there are only two, and the first resurrection happens during the tribulation period?

Also notice, those written about in (Revelation 6:9-11) have been killed, and they are waiting for others to be killed during the tribulation.
This would mean, those in the first resurrection, are not all resurrected at the same time.
---David on 4/11/14


The.rapture is written as part of The trumpets/bowls after the ridership of the false prophet as the Gathering Feast for the Armageddon..
---Johannes_Davsidon on 4/10/14


I Believe that The catching up occurs during the sealing of the 144,000 in accordance with the 6th Seal.

Armageddon is also mentioned as Bowl 6. Then 7 comes.
---Johannes_Davsidon on 4/10/14


"You ignore 2nd Thessalonians"
Samuelbb7

I don't ignore II Thess. I understand what it teaches.

At the 2nd Coming Jesus comes and stands on the earth again.
This does not happen at the Rapture.

If the Revelation is mostly symbolic how do we tell which is which? Is the White Horse in Rev 6 white or something else?

At the Rapture there are saints resurrected this does not happen at the Matt 24 gathering.
Was the 120 "gathered" in the Upper Room in Acts considered a rapture? (NO!)

You have to study the entire Bible and not just read some liberal book or Internet study.

The Rapture was well spoke a long time before Darby also.
---Elder on 4/10/14


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Thank you David some very good points. There are only two resurrections mentioned in the Bible. The first is of all the Saints including those who died in the tribulation.

The Secret Rapture has two raptures since there are two resurrections of the saints.

The word Rapture has more then one meaning. The Theological one is :To take (someone) off the Earth and bring (them) to Heaven as part of the Rapture.

Since at the Second Coming as the verse in Matthew 24 states JESUS will take his saints off the earth this is a rapture/Second Coming.

They are the first Resurrection. Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 these chapters deal with the Temple and the Second Coming which is the rapture.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 4/10/14


Samuel
Isn't the rapture, a resurrection of the dead?
Please take note of (Revelation 20:4-6).

There it clearly tells us who will be in the First Resurrection.
Please notice that these folks are killed during the Tribulation, when the Mark of the Beast is being given.

If the pre-trib rapture teaching is true, why is Revelation teaching us, those who are killed during this period will be in the 1000 year reign?
---David on 4/10/14


Dear Samuel,
I believe that the passages in (Matthew 24:36-44) is speaking of the Second Coming of Christ. On that "day" which means the Second Coming is mentioned beginning in (v.36). The passage does say,
"But of that day and hour no one know, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be."
No rapture is mentioned on the passage, but it does not mean that just because it is not mentioned, that it has not occurred already when that day does come.
Matthew 24:1- speaks of something that was going to happen at that time, and it did happen. Agape
---Luke on 4/9/14


Dear Elder you say that Matt 24 and Mark are not about the rapture. But the rapture is when JESUS comes to gather His saints. Which is what both passages are about.

The disciples never heard of the rapture as you teach it because no one until John Darby invented it had ever heard of it.

You take the coming of JESUS to rapture the church and say it is not the Second Coming. But is it not JESUS coming here a second time?

You do not show how it is not the Second coming. You ignore 2nd Thessalonians.

Much of Revelations is symbolic.

Do you believe in Dispensationalism, Futurism and the Seventy Week Gap theory. Because these are the foundation of the Darby doctrine not what is written in Revelation?
---Samuelbb7 on 4/9/14


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Samuelbb7, again Matt 24 is about the 2nd Coming not the Rapture.

Matt 24:3, the disciples asked the question, "... what shall be the sign of thy coming...?" This is the 2nd Coming!

They did not ask about the Rapture.

In your reference to Mark 13:27 also read v24. Note the words "after the tribulation."

The 2nd Coming of Christ occurs after the Great Tribulation not before.

There is a Rapture of the Church but it is not in Matt 24 or Mark 13.

An example of it's occuring is between Rev 3:22 and 4:1.
---Elder on 4/9/14


Matt 24 speaks of Jesus' Second Coming not a Rapture/Catching Away.

Remenber it is The Second Coming, not the third, forth... Elder


Mat 24:31

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is a catching away or rapture. See Mark 13:27

All of the Christians are gathered once. Not twice. Read 2 Thessalonians.

I know this is a hard doctrine to give up. But I have seen others come to realize it is false. Believing it will not cost your salvation. But will leave you unprepared.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 4/9/14


There will be a rapture, though not like the one in the "Left Behind" movie.

In (Revelation 20:4-6) it tells us about those in the First Resurrection. They were beheaded because they did not get the mark of the beast on their forehead or hand.
This Mark is only given during the tribulation period.

If this Mark is given during the tribulation period, and those who are killed because they did not get this Mark are the first to be resurrected, how can there be a pre-trib resurrection(Rapture)?

If there was pre-trib rapture, wouldn't that have been called the First Resurrection?
---David on 4/9/14


Jesus ministry in Matthew-John was to the lost sheep of the house of ISRAEL (Mat 15:24). His ministry to the circumcision confirmed the covenant promises to the nation Israel (Rom 15:8).

Jesus is speaking to his covenant people according to prophecy.

Matt 24 salvation received through endurance (Mat 24:13). salvation today rests on the finished work of Christ and provides salvation now. Rom 5:11

Gods message to covenant Israel in Matt-John was that the Messiah had arrived and the promised kingdom was coming (Mark 1:14-15). different from Gods message of grace concerning the free justification and reconciliation that he provides by Christs' blood .
(Mat 24:16). most of the church today does not live in Judaea.
---michael_e on 4/8/14


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Samuel, we must determine who the "they" is in Rev 11:11. We can do this by reading v3-11.

Rev 11 is very plain who these two are and the events dealing with them.

The "they" is the two witnesses that preach during the Great Tribulation.

They are murdered and lay in the street 3 days then v-11 occurs. This is a rapture not a Second Coming.

Matt 24 speaks of Jesus' Second Coming not a Rapture/Catching Away.

Remenber it is The Second Coming, not the third, forth and so on.

Jesus came to earth the first time as a lowely servant. He comes to earth the second time as All Mighty God.

---Elder on 4/8/14


Rev 11:12

And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies beheld them.

Well this sounds like Mark 13:26,27 where all See JESUS and his elect is Gathered. Also Matt 24:30,31. This is the Second Coming and all people see JESUS.

You say it is other places. But if it refers to the gathering of the saints it is always the Second Coming.

Read Matthew 24 and see what JESUS says about those who says he comes in secret.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 4/8/14


Trey
Thank you for helping me understand your view.
You said these events in (Matthew 24) have already taken place.

(Matthew 24:30-31) says, "All the people of the Earth", will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds.
If this event has already taken place, it must be recorded somewhere.

Is this event recorded in the Bible? If it is, where can I find it?
---David on 4/8/14


Matt 24:1 Christ speaking to his disciples. He had many disciples. He tells them of the destruction of the temple which was destroyed by the Romans in 70A.D.
Matt 24:16 he is speaking of fleeing to the mountains. At Christ's return we won't need to flee to the mountains.
Matt 24: 25-27 Christ mentions the coming of the Son of Man. This is speaking of His coming judgement upon the nation of Israel.
Matt 24:28 The eagle was the symbol for the Romans.
Matt 24:29 The old law service is done away with completely with the destruction of Jerusalem.
Matt 24:31 His angles (ministers) are gathering the people together. Christ's second coming he will gather us together.
24:31 Generation = 40 years.
---trey on 4/7/14


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For whom was Matthew 24 written?
Matt 24 was spoken by the Lord Himself to the 12 as representatives of Israel. Matt 24 is all tribulation.
1 Thess 4 written to the church, the boC
Two different groups, two different subjects.
---michael_e on 4/7/14


Dear Cluny the sixth seal has not been opened yet.

One of the problems with the Secret Rapture theory is that it actually makes two second comings.

Many make a difference between JESUS coming for his church and Jesus coming for judgment. But they are both JESUS coming.

Mar 13:26-27

And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

JESUS gathers his elect at the second coming. Read Mark 13 as well as Matthew 24.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/7/14


In Matt 24 Jesus was asked about His Second coming not the great catching away/Rapture.

He did not speak of a rapture because that is not what He was asked.

To see or get a rapture out of Matt 24 is error.

There is a rapture in Rev 11:12, and other places in Scripture, so it can not be truthfully said, "There is no such thing as a rapture."

Rev 11 was written way before the 1800s.
---Elder on 4/7/14


The events in Matthew 24, the book of Daniel and most of the book of the Revelation of Christ have already taken place.---trey on 4/5/14

Trey
I agree, the Rapture story is nothing but a fable meant to create fear, rather than the hope, the return of Christ was meant to bring to the believer.

But I do not agree that which Jesus taught in (Matthew 24) is in our past.
If you believe this, when do you believe the event, which takes place in (Matthew 24:29-31), happened?
---David on 4/6/14


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1st Corinthians chapter 15 and 1st Thessalonians chapter 4 give us the clearest picture as concerning the return of Christ.

The word rapture is not a biblical term.

The doctrine of the rapture was not taught by the early Christians. This theory of the rapture was developed due to false teachers who were not able to rightly divide the word. They always run to Matt 24, the book of the Revelation, and the book of Daniel in an attempt to create false beliefs and scare little lambs to death. (Christ never brought forth a message of fear for his people.) The events in Matthew 24, the book of Daniel and most of the book of the Revalation of Christ have already taken place.
---trey on 4/5/14


Cluny
Also, take note of what happens in (Matthew 24:31) is taking place in (Revelation 7:1).
---David on 4/5/14


Mathematics is awesome.
You can pick two unrelated numbers that have significance, decide to add/subtract/multiply/divide to get number that you apply a significance to it. it is very masterful.
It gets more fun and easier to apply when geometric functions are used.
It reminds me of when my ,then, 2 year old got all excited when he was able to stack multiple blocks on top of each other without falling.
Look, Dad, come see!!
---micha9344 on 4/4/14


Cluny
In (Matthew 24:29-30) Jesus tells us what will happen just before he appears in the clouds.

And the very same thing Jesus talks about in (Matthew 24),happens when the sixth seal is opened in (Revelation 6:12-17).
---David on 4/4/14


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The false prophet gog {beast from the earth} will conquer the empires on the earth and set up the mark of the image of the name of the beast as commerce worship/war. He will rule along with 10 rulers for 1335 days, until the end with the trumpets/bowls is poured out upon him.

Forefathers: 1335 ~ BC Moses + 450 in Egypt + 100 Jacob + 120 Isaac + 100 Abraham + 70 Terah = 2175~ BC...

+ 2014 = 4189~ years.

7069 before the flood /4189 = 1.6875 1492 00286464550011936022917 = ~ 1.7

1.7 - 1.68751492 = 52.299999999999999999998500600719... States?
---yohannes_davsidon on 4/4/14


This is written in Daniel and Revelation as 42 months which is 1260 days or 3 1/2 years...

1260 + 72 {council of Judges and 2 Prophets in Moses, Eldad and Medad} = 1332 = 666 x 2. + 3 days as the sign of Jonah = 1335 days = 44 1/2 = 3.655 years.

3000 ~ years/1260 = 1/.42

3000 ~ years/1335 = 2.247 1910 112359550561797752808989


The last time is appointed and set at 3.655 days in accordance with the fulfillment given by Messiah to the Cross and the Pentecost: 1260 days + 3 days + 40 days among nations, peoples, and languages + 32~ = 1335 = 1336 take back One.
---yohannes_Davidson on 4/4/14


\\For those of you who are curious, in (Revelation 6:12-17) through (Revelation 7), you can read about the opening of the Sixth Seal.

When the Sixth Seal is opened, the Lord will come again
---David on 4/4/14\\

Wrong.

The Sixth Seal has already been opened.

And what about the Seventh Seal, with the half-hour of apocalyptic silence?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/4/14


I believe the Church will go through the tribulation.

But I heard a saying that I could not disagree with.

Keith Green said. "I will pray for pre tribulation and prepare for post Tribulation.

Agape to all
---Samuelbb7 on 4/4/14


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For those of you who are curious, in (Revelation 6:12-17) through (Revelation 7), you can read about the opening of the Sixth Seal.

When the Sixth Seal is opened, the Lord will come again
---David on 4/4/14


At the time of the rapture, the Acts 2 v 38 salvation of God door Will be closed to the gentiles. If your left behind, you Will suffer the consequences with the antichrist & the destruction of this earth.
---Lawrence on 4/2/14


The answer to the blog question is a simple one. Christians have always faced (and will always face) persecution and tribulations from time to time. these must be endured, sometimes even unto death (e.g. Christians in Rome being fed to lions). We're supposed to endure and hold to the course.

The only difference between normal tribulations and The Great Tribulation will be one of degree (and a happy rescue out of the middle of it).

Those who RELY on being rescued may fail if they are forced to endure great tribulatations and think it's The Great One.
---StrongAxe on 3/30/14


Some believe they will go some believe they will go though it. Some see they go in a rapture. Some see they want. Judge neither it will be according to the word either way it will deliever them from evil.
---Bryan on 3/30/14


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\\The new Egypt was Babylon in the time of Daniel, and the new Egypt was Rome in the time of The Apostles.\\

At the time of Daniel, Egypt was called Egypt and Babylon was called Babylon.

At the time of the Apostles, Egypt was called Egypt, Rome was called Rome, and Babylon was called Babylon.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/28/14


Dear Cluny

Thank you. You are correct we would have not problem declaring racism a heresy. We were an Abolitionist church.

Welcome David

Dear yahnnes I have not heard what you are saying before. Where is this teaching found?
---Samuelbb7 on 3/28/14


The 7 years are cut short in half to 1260 days is written plus 75 days which is 1335 days.

This is the time of the commerce wars of gog and magog with all of the inhabitants on the earth.

War is written concerning Egypt and gog...

10 Worldwide leaders will come and take over the Leaderships of the world and the Major Empire which was called Egypt.

The new Egypt was Babylon in the time of Daniel, and the new Egypt was Rome in the time of The Apostles.
---yohannes_davsidon on 3/27/14


Samuel
Thank you brother, that was very helpful.
---David on 3/28/14


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\\Adopted after what time? And what doctrines in particular are you talking about?

Cluny

After 1830 as you pointed out no doctrine could be accepted from that time. Also I do not know if you have any doctrines from then. I was asking because the RCC do.\\

OK. There was a local council in Constantinople in the 19th century which declared ethnophyletism, or racism, to be a heresy.

But I don't have any problem with that, and I doubt the SDA would.

In fact, the Orthodox Church, as far as I know, is the only church to declare racism a heresy.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/27/14


\\I have to ask are not some of the doctrines of the Orthodox church today adopted after that time?\\

Adopted after what time? And what doctrines in particular are you talking about?

Cluny

After 1830 as you pointed out no doctrine could be accepted from that time. Also I do not know if you have any doctrines from then. I was asking because the RCC do.
---Samuelbb7 on 3/27/14


Dear David

The seventieth week gap from the 69 weeks is a fairly new doctrine.

In the older version the 70 weeks are all past and JESUS died in the midst of the final 7 years.

For exact details you look up Daniel70weeks explained. There are a number of sites on this topic even Wikipedia talks about it.

The secret rapture theory from Darby is based on this interpretation and it part of futurism. Which was invented by a Jesuit priest named Ribera.
---Samuelbb7 on 3/27/14


How do we know the tribulation will last 7 years?
(Daniel 9:27)
He will confirm a covenant with many for one seven. In the middle of the seven he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.
---David on 3/27/14


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\\I have to ask are not some of the doctrines of the Orthodox church today adopted after that time?\\

Adopted after what time? And what doctrines in particular are you talking about?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/26/14


Dear Cluny I can sympathize with your point. I have to ask are not some of the doctrines of the Orthodox church today adopted after that time? I know some RCC doctrines were.

Dear Micha each of those events in history can better point to the Second Coming and the rapture being the same event. Particularly the Exodus. Since the people of GOD were there during the plagues and only delivered after the last one fell.

Agape to all.
---Samuelbb7 on 3/26/14


Steveng, is it such a horrible fate to die as a martyr for the Savior during the Tribulation?

If there WERE a pre-trib rapture (which there is not), then all you'd have do to know when the return of Christ comes is to count seven years, but He Himself said only the Father knew the date of His return.

Besides, the pre-trib rapture was never heard of until 1830. That means it's false.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/26/14


There are examples in the Bible of this period of time, shadowed.
First, Noah: For many years, he preached of the end and of salvation, but there was one point in which the door was shut by God. some were saved, all others perished.
Next, Lot: vexed his soul daily in the city, yet God sent men to get him out. Some were saved, all others perished.
Lastly, the Exodus: Israel went through the plagues, yet most did not harm them.
They left after the first born that were not sealed the blood of the lamb were killed, and were not "out of the water" until they passed through the water.
We can glean from these examples how and if there is a trib. period and a rapture apart from the second coming of our Saviour Jesus Christ.
---micha9344 on 3/26/14


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Right now Christians in many Muslim countries, India and Africa are being murdered robbed and persecuted for being Christians.

Yet many here sit and say no persecution for Christians. Many Chinese were taught this and lost faith when the Communist took over.

I will survive or die during the persecution as GOD wills. For the blood of Martyrs is seed for the Gospel.

We are all going to die. We all await the resurrection. Trust in JESUS I need today and will need till I see JESUS.
---Samuelbb7 on 3/26/14


The debate does not divide this christian.

The Revelation of jesus christ does not say a tribulation period...it says during this period, there will be great tribulation.

From what I do know of God is that he is greater than great. His power is how christians survive any times of great tribulation. Either way...I will survive. My deliverance does not depend on me and my understanding.

steveng...now let me ask you...how will you survive this period if there is no rapture?
---aka on 3/25/14


Because
"Great is thy faithfulness"

Psalm 16 - Preserve me, O God for in you I take refuge

Jeremiah 29

Psalm 17:8 Keep me as the apple of your eye hide me in the shadow of your wings

Psalm 18:2 The Lord is my rock and my fortress...

I have survived for 30 years not because of my strength but because Malachi 3:6 For I the Lord do not change, therefore O children of Jacob are not consumed.

//How will you survive for seven years when you aren't Raptured?// I won't but He is strong and I am in Him.
---Scott1 on 3/26/14


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