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Read This Prayer Salvation

Would you intervene if you heard a church-goer say to someone- asking about Christianity - "All that you have to do is read out this prayer and then sign the card and you are a born-again Christian."?

I'll say more after seeing a few replies.

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 ---Rita_H on 5/12/14
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Micha, why do you keep posting scripture from the OT that was to Israel?

Giving THEM eyes to not see...
Romans 11 explains:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles, how much more their fulness?
---kathr4453 on 6/6/14


//No Luke. Only those who have turned to Christ will have their heart changed by the His Holy Spirit.//

If a sinner is dead in trespasses and sins, a slave to the enemy, doing the desires of their father the devil, how can he desire Christ in the first place? It is impossible to desire both.
"But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us (speaking to believers) even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive (spiritually alive) together with Christ by grace you have been saved, and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus" Eph. 2:4-6.
This is the work of God on the sinner.
---Luke on 6/6/14


Deu 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.
1Sa 10:9 And it was [so], that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day.
1Sa 16:7 ...for [the LORD seeth] not as man seeth, for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.
Psa 10:17 LORD, thou hast heard the desire of the humble: thou wilt prepare their heart, thou wilt cause thine ear to hear:
Psa 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me.
Jer 4:14 O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness, that thou mayest be saved. How long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee?
---micha9344 on 6/5/14


"Only those who have had their hearts changed by the Holy Spirit will turn to Christ."
Luke.

No Luke. Only those who have turned to Christ will have their heart changed by the His Holy Spirit.

That is why Jesus bid us to "Come unto Him."

That is why we call on Him and trust Him.


---Elder on 6/5/14


//Also no where does scripture say God gives you spiritual ears SO THAT you can hear. I know you use that often, but had given no scripture to back that up...//

Dear Kathr,
You never heard of spiritual hearing? How can you know Scripture if you have no clue what spiritual hearing is? Almost everyone has physical hearing unless they are deaf. But only those regenerated by God have spiritual hearing. Spiritual hearing comes to us, we do not have it. If you read (Deut. 29: 1-4) Israel saw and heard what God did for them in the wilderness, yet He says,
"Yet the Lord has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day" (v. 4). They were spiritually deaf, blind with a corrupted heart.
---Luke on 6/5/14




Isa 32:3 And the eyes of them that see shall not be dim, and the ears of them that hear shall hearken.
Isa 42:20 Seeing many things, but thou observest not, opening the ears, but he heareth not.
Jer 5:21 Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding, which have eyes, and see not, which have ears, and hear not:
Eze 12:2 Son of man, thou dwellest in the midst of a rebellious house, which have eyes to see, and see not, they have ears to hear, and hear not: for they [are] a rebellious house.
Mat 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear,) unto this day.
---micha9344 on 6/5/14


Well Luke you said many correct things in your post.

Yes it takes the work of GOD to do all those things.

Where you and I disagree. Is that you believe GOD forces those on a person. That a person cannot reject what GOD is doing for him. That GOD does not love all and give them a chance.

All you say is true but it is given to us and he allows us to choose to let Him save us.


Jhn 3:16

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
---Samuelbb7 on 6/4/14


Luke when we turn to Christ He changes not only our heart but our entire lives. The New Heart belongs to the NEW MAN not the old man. God does not make you a new man by crucifying you with Christ before hearing. The preaching of the Gospel comes from the POWER OF THE WORD, not the power of ears. The Holy Spirit is not independently going around rebirthing anyone apart from the Word of God.

Also no where does scripture say God gives you spiritual ears SO THAT you can hear. I know you use that often, but had given no scripture to back that up. Everyone can hear, for the WORD itself is living and powerful and stronger than a two edge sword. YOU take the power away from the WORD Itself, and transfer it to ears. Wrong.

Agape.
---kathr4453 on 6/4/14


Dear Kathr,
You are getting confused, when the eyes of sinners are opened, it is because the Holy Spirit has opened them, they receive spiritual sight. When their hearing is opened it is because the Holy Spirit has opened them, they receive spiritual hearing. When a sinners heart feels a love for Christ, it is because God loved him first.
Only those who have had their hearts changed by the Holy Spirit will turn to Christ. God made us alive together with Christ when we were dead in trespasses and sins. We were walking to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, we were by nature children of wrath. We cannot make ourselves spiritually alive, it takes the works of God. It is pretty simple.
---Luke on 6/4/14


Luke, I believe exactly as the verse says. every word in the exact order it was spoken to Paul.

That was my point Luke. Faith comes by hearing and anyone preaching the Gospel in the power of the Holy Spirit can open anyone's eyes. But opened eyes don't saved, one must TURN after their eyes have been opened....just as the verse says. Just as Hebrews 6 says also. One can be enlightened and taste of the Holy Spirit and still willfully be lost.
---kathr4453 on 6/3/14




2 Chronicles 7:14

If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Now here is that word again. TURN. I know in the past you have stated you believe this timeless verse belongs to the Church. I don't however, but you do. However the point is even in the OT "MY PEOPLE" were also required to do something our of their own free will. If free will was not involved, no such verse would be in scripture.
---kathr453 on 6/3/14


Anyone who knows JESUS as their Savior can tell another person about JESUS.

Paul was an important Apostle in that He was commissioned and wrote to the church about the Theology of being saved for gentiles.

We are to accept JESUS as our Lord and Savior. We need to know what was taught to follow Him as our LORD in charge of all our life. For JESUS is never just a Savor. He is also LORD.
---Samuelbb7 on 6/3/14


//Well, OK now that Paul is dead, can any "Gentile" be saved today? Or did God really not need Paul at all?//

Dear Kathr,
You do not really believe that Paul opened the eyes of the Gentiles do you? Or that Paul turned the Gentiles into the light?
Jesus was talking about the gospel that Paul was going to preach that opened the eyes of the Gentiles, and with that gospel turned the Gentiles into the light. It could have been anyone else. It did not have to be Paul, or for that matter today. Agape
---Luke on 6/3/14


Acts 26:16-19
thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee,

17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,

18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Well, OK now that Paul is dead, can any "Gentile" be saved today? Or did God really not need Paul at all?
---kathr4453 on 6/2/14


Dear sister Elena,
It is so nice to hear from you. I wish everyone answered like you do. What I mean is as humble as you do, with such a love for Christ. Yes, it is true, when God wants to save someone, they get saved. What an awesome God we have in Jesus. You always share your love for everyone, no matter if they agree with you or not. That is also so awesome, blessings and the love of God back at you. No matter how much you hurt, your love for Christ never fails, Agape
---Luke on 6/1/14


Hello,Bro.Luke All respect,yes! thankyou for your post 5/25/14
Really great you line for line,easy to get,understand.

It the way,I believe that God has a way we can not play with it,mishandle nor misinterpret.
When God want to save some one believe He will surely get their attention,no doubt about it. He also knows when they DO not want the any part of God,his word,they're hearts turn away..
---Elena9555 on 5/30/14


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Acts2:21 whosoever shall call on the name of The Lord shall be saved.
---shira4368 on 5/27/14


Where does the Bible say you are saved simply by saying a prayer?

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/26/14


Thanks Shira, we seem to have a 'crossed wire' somewhere. It's so easy to sort out misunderstandings when speaking to someone in person but not so easy online. God bless.
---Rita_H on 5/27/14


Dear James L,
I am very serious and ready to hear what you have to say. If both predestination and no predestination are false doctrines, what is correct? What other theology is right? Or what other doctrine is correct? Agape
---Luke on 5/27/14


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rita, if you are talking about me, I never said you did any sort. I was just relating why I personally don't like tracts. sorry if you thought I was saying anything. I was not because I don't recall anyone saying anything about tracts here.
---shira4368 on 5/26/14


I don't recall EVER saying that a tract (or signing a card) ever saves anyone. I know that it doesn't and I have said that here on several occasions.

If others think that is what I have said please state here on what date and under which heading I have said that.
---Rita_H on 5/26/14


//Yes. Some reject predestination, building a false doctrine.
But those who believe God has predestined some to go to heaven, have taken scriptures out of context and built a false doctrine, too.//

So what you are saying is that those who do not believe in predestination have a false doctrine, and those who do believe in predestination also have a false doctrine, is that correct? If both are wrong what is correct? Can you teach us the truth? Since both are wrong? Agape
---Luke on 5/26/14


Rita, I don't like the tract you described. No one can sign anything and be saved. I've always said tracts are sending some to hell. One person said if one is saved its worth it but I see many going to hell because of them. I don't give out tracts.
---shira4368 on 5/25/14


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....what we believe, becomes the measure of Truth....greater than the truth taught in the Bible....we seek out those few verses
---David on 5/24/14

exactly right



What I believe Trey is saying is,
that people read the Bible about predestination, but reject it....They rather stand for what they believe...

---Luke

Yes. Some reject predestination, building a false doctrine.

But those who believe God has predestined some to go to heaven, have taken scriptures out of context and built a false doctrine, too.


Both accuse each other of building a false doctrine, and both are correct

Pot, meet kettle
---James_L on 5/25/14


Dear Rita,
This is what I believe. That when God wants to save someone, He makes sure it is done. He will accomplish His will no matter what. He will put the believer with the gospel where He wants him to be, and will put the sinner where he is suppose to be. He will hear the gospel, He will believe by faith, since the gospel will come to him in power and in the Holy Spirit, and he will be saved, because God will make sure of it.
There is many who are not driven by God, and try to do the work of God on their own, and let me tell you, it does not work one bit. Many might think they are saved but are not. When God wants to save someone, he will be saved. Agape
---Luke on 5/25/14


So which is worse? Rejecting what is said and building a false doctrine, or taking the words out of context and building a false doctrine? James_L

James
It's interesting, how what we believe, becomes the measure of Truth, a measure which becomes greater than the truth taught in the Bible.
If the Bible doesn't measure up to what we believe, we seek out those few verses, which can be molded to say what we believe.

We do the very same thing when we judge. We judge others because we feel as though we are more righteous, than those we judge. How can a sinner judge someone else when they sin?
We can only do this when we make ourselves, and not Jesus Christ, the measure of righteousness.
---David on 5/24/14


//so which is worse? Rejecting what is said and building a false doctrine, or taking the words out of context and building a false doctrine?

Dear James L,
Both questions you gave receive a false doctrine. One is not worse then the other, they are both false doctrines. How much worse can one be from the other?
What I believe Trey is saying is,
that people read the Bible about predestination, but reject it because they do not want to believe in it. They rather stand for what they believe then what is written by God. It is theological bias, rejecting something that is in God's word, for something they already believe. Agape
---Luke on 5/24/14


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If we as believers, sow the Gospel that is our commandments and in it is seed of life. Jesus said this seed is the smallest of all the seeds in the earth but when it sown it grows larger than any thing else. Any thing else. Everything that is in your life other than the Gospel is a any thing else.
---Bryan on 5/24/14


"When I read many of the blogs concerning Predestination it reminds me of a friend of mine. She says, "Trey, I know what the bible says, but this is what I believe!" I just have to smile and chuckle inside. People read the bible and don't agree with what it says and then just make up their own beliefs."
---trey

so which is worse? Rejecting what is said and building a false doctrine, or taking the words out of context and building a false doctrine?

pot, meet kettle
---James_L on 5/22/14


Trey
They are children being raised without the Truth. They confide in the wisdom of Men, and don't need any proof for anything they believe.

There was once a man who invested his retirement with a friend. This man had so much faith in the friend, he never asked for proof of his investment. He so believed in his friend, he got others to invest in him.
When the day came for him to retire, he discovered his retirement account was empty, and his friend a liar.

Many people believe they are saved because they have believed in men, but one day, when it's too late, they will discover the teachings in which they have placed their faith, were lies.
---David on 5/23/14


// this being saved and not knowing it? I feel there must be a definite memorable day when you became a new creation.//

Dear Mark,
The work of God happens while we were dead in trespasses and sin. God then quickens or regenerates the soul of the elect by the immediate supernatural operation of the Holy Spirit. It effects or works the inward change of the disposition, inclination, and desire of the soul. Everyone who is called is now disposed to God and responds in faith. We see, then that faith itself is a gift from God, having been given by the Holy Spirit. We then are aware of the Love of God we now have, and want to seek Him and know Him. We don't know the exact time when we begin to feel that way, a way we never felt before.
---Luke on 5/23/14


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Dear Mark,
We do not know the moment we are made alive together with Christ Eph. 2:4, What we do know is that before we were made spiritually alive we never seek after God. But now we want to seek God. And God makes it possible for us to hear His word and believe it. This are actions we take after being regenerated by the Holy Spirit when God drew us to Himself.
I do not remember the exact time God changed me, what I do know is that I suddenly had a hunger for Christ. I heard the gospel and I broke down and cried. I asked God to forgive me, that I needed Him in my life. Those were my own works after God changed my heart when He made me spiritually alive. Agape
---Luke on 5/23/14


You can be saved and not know it, but when you do know it, you will respond to that faith you already have.
---Luke on 5/22/14

First, let me say that I use the word "received" when I relate to the free gift of salvation rather than using the word believe. I think that using the word believe can be misleading. Believing with faith is more than simple belief.

But, how does this work, this being saved and not knowing it? I feel there must be a definite memorable day when you became a new creation. Also, there is a Scripture that says I will know beyond a doubt that I am saved:

Rom 8:16 "The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, "
---Mark_Eaton on 5/22/14


When I read many of the blogs concerning Predestination it reminds me of a friend of mine. She says, "Trey, I know what the bible says, but this is what I believe!" I just have to smile and chuckle inside. People read the bible and don't agree with what it says and then just make up their own beliefs.
---trey on 5/22/14


"Would I intervene..."

Probably...depending on the circumstances of where and how I would happen to hear the conversation. If I was part of the conversation and not in a church that promotes that, sure, I would say something.

"Pray a prayer...sign a card," raises a good question, along the same line, does one have to believe in 6 day creation, the Bible is inerrant in the original manuscripts, the rapture, 1000 year reign, or that grace alone saves? Who/what should one's faith to be in?
---Rod4Him on 5/22/14


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Dear Mark, concerning water baptism, it does not change the sinner. What it does is it symbolizes what has happened to him already. He goes in the water and he dies, when he rises he is born again. It is done in public so that others know your commitment.
Spiritual baptism is something the Spirit does, in the Spirit. No one knows who is spiritually baptized. It is an action of God on the sinner. He becomes one part of the body of Christ.
The indwelling of the Spirit is also an action of God on the sinner. Christ comes into your heart, and many gifts are given to you.
When we are sealed by the Spirit, it is another action of God on the sinner, it is an insurance upon the believer, that he will not be lost. Agape
---Luke on 5/22/14


No dear Mark, receiving the gift of salvation is an action we take when we realize we are saved already and have faith. We are saved by the grace of God. No action we take saves us. When we respond to that action of God, we confess with our mouths what has already happened to us. Faith is a product of God. The gospel is
"the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes" Romans 1:16. You have to believe already.
When we are made spiritually alive together with Christ, by His grace, we are not only given repentance but also faith to believe. You can be saved and not know it, but when you do know it, you will respond to that faith you already have. Water Baptism is symbolic of what has already happened to us. Agape
---Luke on 5/22/14


Mark
I don't believe in predestination either. How can you have a relationship with God before you're born , before you can make that decision?
---David on 5/21/14


Baptism (Merriam Webster's Online)

a : a Christian sacrament marked by ritual use of water and admitting the recipient to the Christian community

Thereafter God poured the Holy Ghost on Cornelious and his household, Peter akcknowledging: "Then answered Peter,
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days."
---Nana on 5/21/14


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will verbally respond to the faith they now have, and confess with their mouths that Jesus is Lord, because they believe in their hearts already.
---Luke on 5/21/14

Is this not action?

Receiving the gift of salvation is the action that must be taken. This decision cannot merely be an intellectual exercise, as in weighing the type of life insurance to buy. This must be total repentance and acceptance of the life-saving gift that only Jesus offers.

And my point on Baptism is this: Baptism is the action that follows accepting salvation, not signing a card. Baptism does not save, only Jesus does. But I believe that Baptism is a must do action following acceptance of salvation.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/21/14


And it's through that relationship with God, he decides, who he will save. Many are being taught, we are the ones who make that decision.
---David on 5/21/14

I am not sure we are in agreement.

First, I dislike the whole discussion on predestination. The disagreement will never end this side of glory.

I personally believe God calls ALL people to salvation. He draws them unto Himself at least one time in their life. Each person makes a decision for themselves whether to accept this invitation to relationship.

I am still uncertain how God's foreknowledge and predestination actually work. I personally believe we are not given complete knowledge, because if we knew everything, we will be prideful and arrogant.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/21/14


Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved..."
What are we to BELIEVE?
1 Cor 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand,2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures,
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
---michael_e on 5/21/14


Mark
I totally agree, but many don't.
The predominant Protestant teaching of Grace, of which I was raised, says you don't need to do anything to be saved. But when you ask one of them, "What must I do to be saved?", they will tell you, you need to do something.

I teach, one enters into a relationship with God through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. And it's through that relationship with God, he decides, who he will save. Many are being taught, we are the ones who make that decision.

Ours is not a decision of salvation, ours is a decision of being in relationship with God. And we can not live a life in disobedience, and expect God will choose us.
---David on 5/21/14


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Mark Eaton, I don't believe that 'being' baptised saves anyone. I believe that baptism should be an outward sign that one has already been saved and even that isn't foolproof because some will be baptised who have not been saved.
---Rita_H on 5/21/14


//But you still have to do something...even Jesus told Nicodemus that he must DO something to see the Kingdom of God. And the Apostle Paul outlines (especially in Romans) what must be DONE to be saved.//

There is nothing a person can do in order to be saved. Salvation is by Grace through faith. A persons works does not save him. What we do know is that those who are saved by grace through faith, who can walk and talk, will verb ably respond to the faith they now have, and confess with their mouths that Jesus is Lord, because they believe in their hearts already. Those who cannot speak do not have to confess with their mouths, they are still saved by Grace through faith. Salvation is of the Lord. Agape.
---Luke on 5/21/14


Many churches offer salvation, and all one needs to be saved is to do what they tell you to do, and your saved.
---David on 5/18/14

But you still have to do something...even Jesus told Nicodemus that he must DO something to see the Kingdom of God. And the Apostle Paul outlines (especially in Romans) what must be DONE to be saved.

This is the point of James chapter 2. We cannot see inside your brain and see your faith. How can we be sure you have faith unless your actions speak according to your faith. Something must be done to demonstrate your faith.

The correct answer is not a signing a card but Baptism.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/20/14


//It is for believers who have left all.//

Dear James L,
I totally agree with your statement. We need to be able to leave everything behind and follow Christ. That should be our attitude. To the rich young ruler Jesus said,
"So when Jesus heard these things, He said to him,
"You still lack one thing, "Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven, and come, follow Me"
Luke 18:22. Agape
---Luke on 5/20/14


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Who's offering? Nana

Nana
James makes a good point using the word "offering". Many churches offer salvation, and all one needs to be saved is to do what they tell you to do, and your saved.
I have seen many a church marquee which says, "Be saved today". How can you be saved today? Do what they tell you to do.

Also, great question, "Why would Paul enumerate so many things that will disqualify a man from inheriting the kingdom of Christ and of God, Ephesians 5?"
---David on 5/18/14


Napa

Good post.
---aka on 5/17/14


Who's oferring?
---Nana

Are you serious?


...so many things that will disqualify a man from inheriting the kingdom of Christ and of God?...
---Nana

Having eternal life is NOW - John 5:24, 6:47

Inheriting eternal life will be in the regeneration - Matt 19:28-29

It is for believers who have left all.

...do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve. For he who does wrong will receive the consequences of the wrong which he has done, and that without partiality. (Col 3:23-25)

But they will still have eternal life.
---James_L on 5/17/14


"Any time we offer salvation "if you do this"... we are diminishing the cross."
Who's oferring?

John 8:29 "And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone, for I do always those things that please him."
It is learn and do, Isaiah 1:17.
Matthew 11:29 "Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me, for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls."

Why would Paul enumerate so many things that will disqualify a man from inheriting the kingdom of Christ and of God, Ephesians 5?
Ephesians 5:6 "Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience."
---Nana on 5/17/14


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\\Rita
These folks also teach, You can not be saved by what you do....

I point out they are teaching that we save ourselves by what we do.//
---David on 5/17/14


I agree 100%. Any time we offer salvation "if you do this"... we are diminishing the cross.

and to the one who said trusting a prayer or card is not enough, WRONG!!

Christ alone, thru faith alone

trusting prayer is too much
---James_L on 5/17/14


Rita
These folks also teach, You can not be saved by what you do. So when I hear someone teach this, I ask them if they were saved before they said the prayer?

When they say no, I point out they are teaching that we save ourselves by what we do.
---David on 5/17/14


"Trusting a card would not be enough." Exactly my point throughout this blog Comfy. Sadly very many people are left with the impression that the card IS the important 'thing' which proves they are Christians.

Thanks for your input.
---Rita_H on 5/16/14


Dear Rita,
The great miracle of redemption is not that we accept Christ, but that Christ accept us. We would never love Him on our own (1 John 4:19). Salvation occurs when God changes our hearts and the unbeliever turns from sin to Christ. God delivers the sinner from the domain of darkness into the kingdom of light (Col. 1:13).
The problem is huge, the eagerness to accommodate so called carnal Christians has driven some contemporary teachers to define the terms of salvation so loosely that virtually every profession of faith in Christ is regarded as the real thing. Anyone can say he has accepted Christ even if his suppose faith later gives way to a persistent pattern of disobedience, gross sin, or hostile unbelief.
---Luke on 5/16/14


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Excellent Scripture references to illustrate the point of my post, Comfy!
---Press_On on 5/16/14


We make effort > "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (in Philippians 2:12). But we make effort the way God has us making the effort > "for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

Paul says, "To this end I also labor, striving according to His working which works in me mightily." (Colossians 1:29) So, I can see that Paul made effort in keeping with how God in Him was working him to go, in oneness with God's effort.

Rita, Paul speaks of "we who first trusted in Christ", in Ephesians 1:12. So, getting saved includes trusting in Jesus. Trusting a card would not be enough.
---comfy on 5/15/14


Nana faith is a action, you got that right. You have to do your father's will to produce it in your life. And if you believe in him as you say you will know his will and do it. Jesus said nothing hidden and the will be no secrets when it comes to the things he has given us.
---Bryan on 5/15/14


"Please don't throw them into the ditch of self effort."

James L, I had no intention of doing so, thanks.
---Rita_H on 5/15/14


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Self effort?

Isaiah 1:17 "Learn to do well, seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow."
1 Corinthians 4:16 "Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me."
Matthew 7:24 "Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:"


'Do', 'learn', 'seek' and 'follow' sure sound like self effort.
---Nana on 5/14/14


//...but do feel that I must intervene next time and, somehow, get the words sin and repentance into the discussion and pray for a good opening to say more. //
---RitaH


the only issue with preaching "sin and repentance" is leaving the idea that - you got yourself in this mess (sin), now you get yourself out (repent)

I heard this type of message for years, believing I make myself right with God.

If you intervene, you must preach the cross. Rescue for sinners, healing for the spiritually sick.

Please don't throw them into the ditch of self effort
---James_L on 5/13/14


Rita_H, I agree.
---Nana on 5/14/14


"Is just reading and signing a prayer card enough to comprehend and accept "the gospel"?" Nana, no it certainly is not (which is why I asked the question). Thank you for your input here.

Sadly, this really is the impression that some people give to others. There is little wonder that the rate of 'falling away - backsliding' is high in people who were 'saved' in circumstances where this was/is taught.
---Rita_H on 5/13/14


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Your are given salvation in your sinful state. Your slate is clean, now as a believer in Christ Jesus you start you life new. As a babe in Christ, you read and learn all God has given you. As your reproduce that seed the word grows in you to the point sin is choked out of your life. That is the mustard seed of Jesus.
---Bryan on 5/13/14


Romans 10:14_16 "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?"

Is just reading and signing a prayer card enough to comprehend and accept "the gospel"? See how Paul uses Isaiah to point that some do not heed the gospel? The Gospel, then, is nothing new.
---Nana on 5/13/14


I like the reference to the parable of the sower and the comments on discipleship and repentance.

We see repentance in the prodigal son. When the straying son returns he repents of his actions prior to being accepted by the father.

It is this change of attitude and direction that allows the sinner to see God not as judge and executioner, but as a loving Father waiting for His child to return. The mind must be changed before the heart can be engaged.

2 Cor. 7:10 "For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted, but the sorrow of the world produces death"
---Mark_Eaton on 5/13/14


If someone is seeking Jesus that is a sign that they have been born again.

1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Just as in God created nature, action never proceeds life. Life always proceeds action. A dead man (a man spiritually dead) will not and cannot come to Jesus.

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins,....

I didn't choose when to be born naturally. I also did not choose when to be born spiritually. All the credit and glory belong to God.
---trey on 5/13/14


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The sower was very liberal on how and where he sowed the seed.

Goodspeed to whoever the truth falls no matter how loosely.

May the harvest be bountiful.
---aka on 5/12/14


This is were we as believers get into trouble adding to the word of God. It does not need our help. Try this all I know is that Christ died on the cross for "who-so-ever" and he gave to them the measure of faith. To expect him as their savior, and with that measure of faith they can recieve all God has for them in Christ Jesus. This is the Gospel that changes hearts. Gimmicks will fall away cause the Gospel sets people free.
---Bryan on 5/12/14


You are so right Press-On. Unfortunately I am in the reverse position to what you thought. I spend time with the 'Christian' and see the others (whom he tries to 'convert') at varied times - never the same one twice. I have explained to him several times that his 'advice' is far too vague and is incorrect and unbiblical but that is what is taught in his church and 'his pastor cannot be wrong'!

I don't wish a genuine seeker to become confused by two different people saying different things but do feel that I must intervene next time and, somehow, get the words sin and repentance into the discussion and pray for a good opening to say more.

This is far from easy because of where it takes place.
---Rita_H on 5/12/14


Nope. GRACE it is scary, if it does not scare you do not give complete forgiveness but expectation. Look at Paul how much grace was given to him, a murderer, Matthew robber, Simon zealot - murderer, Peter attempted murderer, King David, Manassah - murderered his own son, how much we forget that grace is grace.

I am assuming that they understand the prayer, ask direct questions. But as far as identity, fruits of the spirit, etc not important at that time. Those things will come later.
Ephesians summary, Paul Ch 1v1 calls all church members saints, "born-again". Ch 1 to 4 defines this sainthood. CH 5 and 6 defines righteous living in the reason of Ch 1 to 4, even though they are not perfectly following it.
---Scott1 on 5/12/14


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I tell them, for easy believism, repeat aft me, no works salvation, once saved always saved etc Are ALL Lies from here 2nd.Cor. 11 v 14 which Is the author of the trinity Rev.17 v's 4 - 6, also those that worship the gods buddha, hindu, allah, hare krishna etc. The Salvation of God Acts 2 v 38 Fulfills Matt, 28 v 19. Jesus IS The Almighty God.
---lawrence on 5/12/14


I would approach the questioner once the churchgoer had gone and ask for a meeting in a neutral location armed with plenty of supporting Scripture and a logical and valid argument that there is MUCH more to it. They left out the key element: REPENT! Going to the altar and signing a little card is foolishness in and of itself. Follow-up and DISCIPLING the person is vital. They cannot be led into false security by letting them think they just purchased fire insurance they are "covered" now so they can live however they please. Ghandi was right claiming (paraphrased) "You Christians are so unlike your Christ".
---Press_On on 5/12/14


I heard this sort of thing as a Baptist all the time.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/12/14


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