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Five Extra Bible Books

I read a book by St.Augustine, where he lists the canonical books (c 390AD). He adds 5 books to what we have: 1 and 2 Macabbees, 2 Ezras, wisdom and Eccleseiastes

What do you think of including these? They are only 80 years after the council of Nicaea which agreed on the new testament?

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// The inconsistances are as proven made by man under the order of the kings and churches that believed the writings did not follow their particular understanding of event's and also their particular beliefs//

Dear Carla,
Now you are speaking concerning the different versions of the Bible. Of course many were paraphrase differently, but the meaning still remains the same. I was speaking of the Word of God which has no inconsistencies.
There is many different kind of Bibles in many languages. When it is translated to another language words change. But as a whole the Bible is the Word of God. Anyone accusing the Bible of inconsistencies is wrong. There is no lies in the Bible. I answer with love. Sorry it bothers you.
---Luke on 7/19/14


The inconsistances are as proven made by man under the order of the kings and churches that believed the writings did not follow their particular understanding of event's and also their particular beliefs.Some of them even omitted and replaced words, changed dates and times therefore the word has inconsistances based on that fact that events are not specifically at written in the word.
---Carla on 7/18/14


//Luke,
Respectfully I take issues with you using the words agape when your stance seems one of scoring points//

Dear Carla,
My intention in answering is for the glory of God. Second, the only truth we have is Scripture. I'm sorry it offends you I use agape. God commands us to love our neighbor.
We cannot debate Scripture when people claim the truth has inconsistencies?
All Scripture is God breathed. No Old Testament prophet, nor Jesus Christ, nor any New Testament writer gives any support for the idea that the portions of Scripture having to do with space-time events contain errors. Scripture affirms that prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
---Luke on 7/18/14


Luke,
Respectfully I take issues with you using the words agape when your stance seems one of scoring points I had your back for a moment, the bible states "ye shall know them by their fruits," pardoned... but hear me out I look for answers and ask questions and debate is not always the issue.
However, in learning one teaches truth that sets you apart IMHO from debaters, I take the opinion of the men on issues of biblical knowledge seriously also my sister in Christ, however, on reasoning the bible also states "...Young men I have called you..."

Jesus re-affirmed Peter three time if I remember correctly (and I'm sure it will be corrected if I am wrong) to feed his sheep.
---Carla on 7/17/14


Luke, if the use of genocide was OK in the time of Joshua, is it OK today for the sake of Israel's survival? Would you agree with that? Joshua was told to kill everybody: men, women, children, infants--everybody. Is this the kind of god you worship and love as a Christian today?
---love.jesus on 7/17/14




//Carla, you are right. There are indeed many inconsistencies in Scripture. One of the most glaring is God's telling Joshua to commit genocide on his enemies, while Jesus tells us to love our enemies.//

Love Jesus,
There is no inconsistencies in Scripture. Your interpretation is inconsistence. God the Father was speaking in Joshua, the act was for the survival of Israel. In Jesus case, it was Jesus the Son who displayed His love for everyone. In His human nature, Jesus was just like us, He cried, and suffered like any human being, yet He was God in His Divine nature. So you have to understand our Triune God. There is no inconsistencies or contradictions in the word of God, the inconsistencies are on the interpretor. Agape
---Luke on 7/17/14


wow Carla, thanks you so much. Im glad someone on cn loves me. I just saw your post. haven't been on here a lot lately. Im trying to get ready for a show. hopefully I will sell enough jewelry and cards to buy some more stuff from hobby lobby. love hobby lobby. I do love the verse in chronocles. that verse is in the front page of my bible. Christians need to stick together and prayer would work wonders but it seems Christians are always fussing about something. just a waste of time. we could be praying instead of always fussing about something. God bless
---shira4368 on 7/16/14


Carla, you are right. There are indeed many inconsistencies in Scripture. One of the most glaring is God's telling Joshua to commit genocide on his enemies, while Jesus tells us to love our enemies.
---love.jesus on 7/16/14


On the contrary, the bible has many inconsistances omissions and events placed incorrectly what then ?
---Carla on 7/16/14


Dear Carla,
I agree that many books are important to study. But we only have one truth, the Bible. It is complete. It is the inspired word of God.
But in learning Scripture, there are many books that help us understand the culture at the time the passage was written. Many other books tell us what was happening in those times.
Some books are mentioned in the Bible but those books can only help us, they are not inspired because there is many inconsistence events in those books that go against Scripture. Agape.
---Luke on 7/16/14




Sorry Luke,

I have arthritis and sometime I hit the wrong key lol the book of Jasher there are many books related to in the Bible my point is who can say which is which, and further more Christianity as it stands preaches along with it, so many pagan practices, and traditions that are so not in keeping with the bible, who do you really believe, for real?

One can only trust the writing that we have been left with, to say the other books are unimportant is to say this bible is complete, it cannot be because there is so much evidence of biblical occurrences that have been revealed that some of these books actually explain.
---Carla on 7/15/14


The books of the New Testament were accepted on two basis. One the previous church Fathers.

Could the books been written by those who were apostles and in the lives of the Apostles.

The Apocrypha were taken from a Bible translated in Egypt from Hebrew to Greek. It is called the Septuagint. The Jewish scholars there added certain wisdom books not accepted as part of the Bible canon by other Jews.

Martin Luther and others decided that the accepted canon of the Old Testament by Jews should be the accepted Canon accepted by the Christian church.
---Samuelbb7 on 7/15/14


"Then David chanted with this lament over Saul and Jonathan his son, and he told them to teach the sons of Judah the song of the bow, behold, it is written in the book of Jashar." (2 Samuel 1:17,18)
---love.jesus on 7/14/14


//The book of Jasher is listed in the bible and yet its missing... 2 Chronicle 33,19
writings of Seer's//

Dear Carla,
Can you be more specific concernging 2 Chronicles and Jasper? What is 33,19? Is that a chapter and verse? If it is, I see not one place where Jasper is mentioned or that or the writing of Seers. Are you also saying that because another book is mentioned in one inspired book, that book also has to be inspired? Help me out, I really do not understand what your argument is. Agape
---Luke on 7/13/14


Whatever your tradition is, the books which you accept are accepted because they have always been traditionally accepted. There is ultimately no way to prove that one is more inspired than another. It is completely a matter of faith within your tradition.
---love.jesus on 7/11/14


The book of Jasher is listed in the bible and yet its missing... 2 Chronicle 33,19
writings of Seer's

The Act's of Solomon

go find the rest you claim to know the bible and can accurately say what is inspired from which is not
???

If they were not inspired how comes the bible lists them it bares no record they are not inspired which proves you do not have a shred of evidence to back up what you write.

---Carla on 7/11/14


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\\The difference between the five books listed above and the sixty six books found in the holy bible is that the sixty six listed in the holy bible were written under inspiration of the Holy Spirit and the five mentioned above were not.\\

Oh, yes, they were TOO written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/10/14


//The difference between the five books listed above and the sixty six books...written under inspiration...//

Where is the support for that? Protestant tradition?

//the Song of Solomon is a picture of Christ as the Groom and his church as his bride.//

If that is the purpose of SofS, what was it's purpose before Jesus?

//...[SS] written during the FIRST Temple period.//

Maybe and probably, (that is another topic of "where and when the original manuscripts were written), however, I was referring to the five books of the blog's topic...I wasn't clear on that.
---Rod4Him on 7/10/14


Dear trey,
Your answers to the question were right on. Yet many times other books allow us to understand what was happening at the time of each passage. When we read on other books what the word
corban" meant to the Jews, we can understand why Jesus upbraids the Pharisees for their concept of Corban. In the practice of Corban a man could declare that all his money would go to the temple treasury when he died, and that, since his money belonged to God, he was there no longer responsible for maintain his aging parents. Jesus argue that men were using this Pharisaic tradition to render God's command (the fifth Commandment) of no account.
We learn about Corban from other books yet those books were not inspired. Agape
---Luke on 7/11/14


The difference between the five books listed above and the sixty six books found in the holy bible is that the sixty six listed in the holy bible were written under inspiration of the Holy Spirit and the five mentioned above were not.

Next, the Song of Solomon is a picture of Christ as the Groom and his church as his bride. It is a wonderful picture of God's love!

Obadiah is a picture of God's judgement upon the wicked and the triumph of Christ's kingdom.

Now, to those with spiritual eyes, both of these books are wonderous!
---trey on 7/10/14


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Americans are not called by Gods name, do you live in the USA by any chance????

Book of Ruth concludes in the apocrypha, Jasher, Enoch Edsra, and many others because they all bare witness with other biblical writings, not only that they speak about the existence of the black race their journey through slavery and the different stages of hell that traditional religion does explain but is ignored by the ignorant. Fallen angels and (Dinosaurs) Bohemouth and Leviathan.
---Carla on 7/10/14


But Song of Solomon was written during the FIRST Temple period.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/10/14


//How and what do Obadiah and Song of Solomon add to the plan of salvation?
---Cluny on 7/10/14//
nothing, just more of Israel's history in "time past"
---michael_e on 7/10/14


//How and what do Obadiah and Song of Solomon add to the plan of salvation?//

Good point.

They give great information of the second Temple period.
---Rod4Him on 7/10/14


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\\Tell me, Cluny, is there any way to contact you apart from on this system? I wanted to ask some things about Orthodoxy that would be too long to ask here

Peter
---Peter on 6/29/14\\

The best way is to "come and see," especially at an Antiochian or OCA parish, which ones are more likely to be using English.

There's also the book THE ORTHODOX CHURCH by Timothy Ware (now Metropolitan Kallistos).

Carla, the USA was NEVER called by God's name.

**These five books add nothing to the plan of salvation
---michael_e on 7/9/14**

They do give historical background to the intertestamental period.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/10/14


\\These five books add nothing to the plan of salvation
---michael_e on 7/9/14
\\

How and what do Obadiah and Song of Solomon add to the plan of salvation?
---Cluny on 7/10/14


These five books add nothing to the plan of salvation
---michael_e on 7/9/14


Carla, I do pray for our nation but that does not mean the government is honest. I agree if Christians would pray, our nation would change.
---shira4368 on 7/3/14


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Shria,

I love ya Xxxx

Clunny for you ...Ignorance is bliss,


Shiria,
2 Chronicles 7:14King James

14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Cluny study to shew yourself approved... then you can handle the word ( RIGHT/ly)
or better still understand it , as for WISDOM it's free !!!!
Xxx
---Carla on 7/3/14


Tell me, Cluny, is there any way to contact you apart from on this system? I wanted to ask some things about Orthodoxy that would be too long to ask here

Peter
---Peter on 6/29/14


Every government lies to it's people. That is happening everywhere. Sometimes it is the right thing to do, other times it is to hide their own sin. It doesn't only happen here, it happens everywhere. Yet God permits everyone who is in government to be where they are at. God always has a reason for that. Many times our country lies to us for security reasons. Some times those lies cause us a lot of pain when many man are killed. That happens everywhere. There is sin everywhere. Agape
---Luke on 6/26/14


Carla, I know your point. Don't take Intelligence to know our government has lied to us,from the top all the way down to the bottom.
---shira4368 on 6/21/14


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\\If you want to keep a nation ignorant you omit the truth !
---Carla on 6/14/14\\

And your point is what, exactly?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/18/14


If you want to keep a nation ignorant you omit the truth !
---Carla on 6/14/14


Cluny, that's good to hear.
---love.jesus on 6/9/14


\\So from what you say, Orthodox churches do break communion with each other from time to time.
---love.jesus on 6/9/14\\

To my sorrow, I have to say yes.

Usually, it's over a question of jurisdiction, frequently masked as an obscure doctrinal point.

If these breaks affect anyone, it's only the clergy with concelebration. It does not affect the laity.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/9/14


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Cluny, I was under the impression, falsely, I see, that all Orthodox churches were always in communion with each other. So from what you say, Orthodox churches do break communion with each other from time to time.
---love.jesus on 6/9/14


The ROCOR is now in full Eucharistic communion with the Moscow Patriarchate and the rest of Orthodoxy!

Glory to God!

Yes, the Jordanville Prayer Book (as it is called) is the standard English PB.

Happy Pentecost.
---Cluny on 6/8/14


michael_e on 6/6/14: 'Biblical or opinion?'

If you mean 'Biblical' BEFORE the books of the NT were picked, it is difficult,, isn't it!?

It was the opinions that had been made from reading the 'books' (what became the NT) that MOST people considered OK - so actually it was both.

Guided by the Holy Spirit, of course
---Peter on 6/8/14


I have a copy of the English "Prayer Book" from Jordanville. I got it at least 30 years ago. Their church was called the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia at that time. Maybe it still is. It contains many lovely, helpful prayers.
---love.jesus on 6/7/14


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\\And if I am correct in saying so, the Eastern Orthodox Church does not use any part of the book of Revelation in its liturgy. I have always found that quite interesting.
---love.Jesus on 6/6/1\\

Good observation.

That's because our worship is patterned after Revelation. We live in it.

Ideally, it's read between Vespers and Matins of the All-night Vigil during Paschaltide.

There are commentaries on Revelation by Orthodox authors. The most famous is a verse by verse one entitled APOCALYPSE by the late Abp. Averky of Jordanville, itself based on a 5th century one. It was translated by beloved Hieromonk Seraphim Rose.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/7/14


And if I am correct in saying so, the Eastern Orthodox Church does not use any part of the book of Revelation in its liturgy. I have always found that quite interesting.
---love.Jesus on 6/6/14


I forgot to mention there are some readings from Sirach (aka Wisdom of Jesus Son of Sirach) and Ecclesiastus and Wisdom of Solomon sometimes at Vespers.

Hope this helps you, Samuelbb.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/6/14


You are right Cluny I forgot.

Thank you for your answer.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 6/6/14


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//The books of the Bible, especially the NT, were chosen because they agreed with our faith.//
Biblical or opinion?
---michael_e on 6/6/14


\\Do the Orthodox have any important doctrines based on these books alone?
---Samuelbb7 on 6/6/14\\

Not really.

Don't forget, we don't base our faith on the Bible.

The books of the Bible, especially the NT, were chosen because they agreed with our faith.

The Songs of the Three Youths in the Furnace (Apocrypha in the KJV, in Daniel 3 in the Greek) are used at Matins as two of the Biblical Odes.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/6/14


Why do some not consider them inspired?
What is the criteria?
---micha9344 on 6/6/14


You are right Cluny on your history and your points.

But I agree with the latter Councils and their arguments.

Do the Orthodox have any important doctrines based on these books alone?
---Samuelbb7 on 6/6/14


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\\What Testament do they belong?
---micha9344 on 6/5/14\\

Some Bibles put these books between the Old and New Testaments.

Others include them with the old.

The order of books in the Bible has no particular significance, spiritual or otherwise.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/5/14


What Testament do they belong?
---micha9344 on 6/5/14


\\Just as the Hebrew councils and Protestants have agreed to.
---Samuelbb7 on 6/3/14\\

And both of these were held AFTER the Church was founded at Pentecost.

For at least two generations, the Church had accepted the Apocrypha as inspired.

For 1500 years Christians in east and west had accepted these books before a minority in the west rejected them.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/5/14


The Biblical apocrypha (meaning hidden) denotes the collection of ancient books found, in some editions of the Bible, in a separate section between the Old and New Testaments or as an appendix after the New Testament. Although the term apocrypha had been in use since the 5th century, it was in Luther's Bible of 1534 that the Apocrypha was first published as a separate intertestamental section.

It is not found in Jewish Bibles except for the Septuagint.

I have read them and while they help in understanding history I found no reason to consider them inspired. Just as the Hebrew councils and Protestants have agreed to.
---Samuelbb7 on 6/3/14


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Cluny, honestly I have no idea when the Anglican church changed it's mind on those books, or even if initially the Anglican church included other books as well...... I just noted that a few of the old King James Bibles, the standard used by the Anglican Church, did have more than the current 39 books in the old Testament.

More, I just do not know
---Peter on 5/31/14


\\Does the Orthodox church accept those five books?

The denomination I'm in (Anglican) used to include them, but now does not
---Peter on 5/29/14\\

Yes, the Orthodox Church accepts them and a few others.

When did the Anglican Church change on this issue?

Happy Ascension.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 5/29/14


Cluny: I am not sure even when exactly St.Augustine wrote the book (De Doctrina Christiana) to which I am referring. I think it was about 390AD, but I may be wrong.

Does the Orthodox church accept those five books?

The denomination I'm in (Anglican) used to include them, but now does not
---Peter on 5/29/14


These books were translated as part of the LXX some two centuries before the time of Christ. Therefore they existed din Hebrew.

The first generation of Christians accepted them.

They were not excluded by the Jews until the rabbinical synod of Jamnia in 90 AD, a good TWO GENERATIONS after the founding of the Church.

And the Council of Nicea was in 325, so St. Augustine wrote this 65 years, not 80, afterwards.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 5/29/14


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