ChristiaNet MallWorld's Largest Christian MallChristian BlogsFree Bible QuizzesFree Ecards and Free Greeting CardsLoans, Debt, Business and Insurance Articles

Confusion In Churches

Why does there seem to be so much confusion amongst churches?

Join Our Free Singles and Take The Christian Living Quiz
 ---Diane on 7/1/14
     Helpful Blog Vote (3)

Post a New Blog



Samuelbb7
The label "legalist" is used to describe one who preaches condemnation/death for any who do not obey the law. Haz27

Here is the Problem. You create your own definition of Legalist.

A legalist is a follower of legalism or one who believe in salvation by works.

Legalism (1.A philosophy of focusing on the text of written law to the exclusion of the intent of law, elevating strict adherence to law over justice, mercy, grace and common sense.)

As in other cases you make your own definition and do not follow the real meaning of the word.

So I and the millions you judge and condemn to eternal torture by your personal definition are by the correct definition not legalists.
---Samuelbb7 on 7/14/14


But according to your earlier posts you call for perfect obedience to the law.-Haz27

Haz
I told you this was a lie, and then you repeat it?
I will have no further discussions with you.
---David on 7/14/14


Samuelbb7
The label "legalist" is used to describe one who preaches condemnation/death for any who do not obey the law.
Legalists do not love.
Their preaching of condemnation/death under the law shows that "love" is merely a facade to conceal their doctrine of works of the law.

Samuel. Can you recall how I posted quotes from you that preached condemnation/death to those who do not obey the law?

Love is much better. Preach the gospel of Christ, instead of works of the law. Love does no ill to another. Love also forgives 7x70, just like God forgave us.
Preach the gospel to the spiritually needy, Matt 25. This is what separates the sheep from the goats.
---Haz27 on 7/14/14


Haz: "Note how the Sabbath and dietary laws are not included."

Where is the scripture that says that? Scripture tells us that Jesus and ALL his disciples kept the dietary laws and the Sabbath exclusively.

Where do you read that Jesus prefers rebellion to obedience? Do you honor your parents by disobedience? How much more do you dishonor God by disobeying Him?

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.



---jerry6593 on 7/14/14


//So it seems you are left with when a person loves JESUS they must live in sin and lie steal and hate. Because that shows they are not doing works and are not legalists.//

Dear Samuel,
Haz nowhere said that a person who loves Jesus "Must" live in sin and lie and steal and hate"
Nowhere did he say that or even suggest such a thing.
You first said,"it seems to you" but you are wrong, "it seems to you Samuel, not to him" that that is what he is saying. It must seem to you because it was you who said it.
What it seems to me he is saying is that we are not under the Law, and anyone who preaches the law and is a believer, is a legalist turning the grace of God unto works. Agape
---Luke on 7/14/14




Haz27 you say that those who out of love obey GOD are seeking to save themselves by works.

Then you say there is no law but love.

But love results in obeying GOD.

So it seems you are left with when a person loves JESUS they must live in sin and lie steal and hate. Because that shows they are not doing works and are not legalists.

So which is it. Is a person who loves GOD and obeys Him a legalist because they want to show love?

Or does a person show they are not a legalist by acting in hate towards others?

You have to choose since your words leave no other choices.
---Samuelbb7 on 7/13/14


His actions showed he had faith in Gods promise.
---David

True. And God's promise to us is that if we believe on Jesus we will have life everlasting. If we continue to believe on Jesus, and do not even mix works of the law with grace, then we will have eternal life. Hence it's important that we resist any teaching that tries to lure us into mixing works of law with grace.

The commandments Jesus gave us is to believe on him and to love one another (1John 3:23).
Note how the Sabbath and dietary laws are not included.

But according to your earlier posts you call for perfect obedience to the law. If that's not so then please explain yourself further.
---Haz27 on 7/13/14



As for works, there are two trains of thought: one, a person works to obtain salvation and, two, a person works because of their love for others as Jesus sets the example - the latter being the truth.--Steveng


Steven
The work a person does because they love others, do you call this work Faith?

---David on 7/13/14


Rod4him.
You are correct about to whom the writer is addressing. When we are told Paul is writing to the Corinthians, he is addressing believers in Christ. He might talk to the Gentiles in the narrative itself, or he could be speaking to the Jews or only to those who already believe.
Also, we understand the Bible, the word of God is truth, yet within the narrative when God speaks it is true, what man says may or may not be true. What Satan says, usually mixes truth and error.
The time period during the narrative is also very important. And also the context of the narrative is very important.
Yet, the Bible was written for the Christian, only he can discern the word of God through the power of the Holy Spirit. Agape
---Luke on 7/13/14


Rod4Him on 7/12/14,

Well put.
---Nana on 7/12/14




By rigidly following this thinking, Romans was written "to all who are beloved of God in Rome," not to us, and Corinthians was written to those at Corinth, and Timothy to Timothy, and so on.
---Rod4Him on 7/12/14

Good stuff.

I have tried to reason in this fashion before, and it falls on deaf ears.
---James_L on 7/12/14


Choosing not to rightly divide a passage into its dispensational context is the root of Biblical ignorance . Everyone understands how to rightly divide naturally, but inconsistent application produces doctrinal confusion. To attempt to obey every word in the Bible without respect to the context is impossible Just one example, concerning missionary efforts, do we go to Gentile nations to preach the gospel? Jesus said (Matt 10:5) "don't go,
Jesus tells Paul: go to the gentiles". (Acts 22:21)
Its obvious what Jesus told the disciples wasn't about the Paul and his ministry. This is one example why profiting from the entire Bible requires rightly dividing scripture.
The boC doesn't have twelve tribes.
---michael_e on 7/12/14


//All scriptures aren't addressed to us.//

Yes and no, be careful..."All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."

//All scriptures aren't addressed to us."

By rigidly following this thinking, Romans was written "to all who are beloved of God in Rome," not to us, and Corinthians was written to those at Corinth, and Timothy to Timothy, and so on.

This teaching creates confusion in churches. One needs to follow an extra Biblical train of thought to understand it, coming from Darby in the early 1800's.
---Rod4Him on 7/12/14


//As for works, there are two trains of thought: one, a person works to obtain salvation//

We know this one is wrong for we are saved by the Grace of God through faith.

// and, two, a person works because of their love for others as Jesus sets the example - the latter being the truth.//

That one is wrong also. Because the good works Christians do is because they are saved by the Grace of God through faith, and that is why He gets the glory. Eph. 2:10
"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, "which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in",
---Luke on 7/12/14


Haz
Fair enough.
No man can be saved by keeping the law of Moses.
Why?
Because we are saved by Grace.......through faith. The Law of Moses helps us recognize sin, but it does not produce the faith in God, needed to save us.

The faith by which we are saved, comes through the actions taken, because we believe in the promise of Jesus Christ (John 14:21-23).

Abraham is referenced by both Paul and James, because Abraham believed in the promise God gave him, and he acted accordingly.

His actions showed he had faith in Gods promise. If he had not acted, it would show he did not believe in the promise.
If he had not left his homeland (Genesis 12), would God have credited him with righteousness?
---David on 7/12/14


Satan has had over two thousand years to infiltrate and divide christiandom up into tens of thousands of denominations each having their own rituals, traditions, ways of living and interpretations of the bible. Even to this day new denominations are springing up and continue to divide within the same denomination.


As for works, there are two trains of thought: one, a person works to obtain salvation and, two, a person works because of their love for others as Jesus sets the example - the latter being the truth.
---Steveng on 7/11/14


Read These Insightful Articles About Cholesterol


"Debaters invoke a straw man when they put forth an argument--usually something extreme or easy to argue against--that they know their opponent doesn't support. You put forth a straw man because you know it will be easy for you to knock down or discredit. It's a way of misrepresenting your opponent's position."
"It can be annoyingly effective because in response you may be lured into clarifying what your position is not instead of talking about what your position is, and studies have shown that when you repeat a lie, even if you are repeating it to refute it, the repetition can reinforce the misinformation in the minds of some people."

Learn from that and don't play into their dirty game, Matthew 7:6
---Nana on 7/11/14


David. Our previous discussions showed that your focus is always upon perfect obedience to the law.

As you have not elaborated on what you think it means by "doing good" in Rom 2:7, then its logical to assume you refer to your usual message that perfect obedience to the law is required.

I've no doubts you already understood my point, hence the allegation of lying is deceitful in itself. I suggest just explaining your view rather than false allegations.
---Haz27 on 7/11/14


Proper application of scripture requires determining if we fit the passage. All scriptures aren't addressed to us.
Jesus told his disciples Go not into the way of the Gentiles (Mat 10:6). If Christians today apply this to their lives they would be heading to Jerusalem!
In order to see passages in the Bible addressed to you, start with Paul.
Paul is the Apostle of the Gentiles (Rom 11:13). Paul wrote letters to Gentiles about his revelation from Christ which included salvation, service to God, and the nature of this present evil world.
To find verses that apply to your life, not addressed to law-keeping, temple-building, pork-abstaining, Israelites then look first to Pauls writings.
---michael_e on 7/11/14


//Paul taught this ..in (Romans 2:5-7), he said, "God, who will render to each one according to his deeds: Eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good"//

David, you misinterpreted Rom. 2:5-7. Paul speaks of the lost and the saved "Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But in accordance "with your hardness and your impenitent heart,"( the un-repented) you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God (v.4,5)
V.7, eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory (the repent ones)
Agape
---Luke on 7/11/14


Read These Insightful Articles About Lasik Surgery


But you suggest that doing good is not referring to believing on Jesus. Instead you claim that it's perfect obedience to the law.- Haz

Haz
If you want to discuss this with me, that's cool, but you don't have to lie about what I said.
---David on 7/11/14


David. You quoted Rom 2:7 Eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good"

We all agree eternal life is associated with doing good
Now scripture tells us that eternal life results from BELIEVING ON JESUS, which is the good referred to in Rom 2.

But you suggest that doing good is not referring to believing on Jesus. Instead you claim that it's perfect obedience to the law. You preach righteousness by works of the law. Thus you make yourself a transgressor/sinner, Gal 2:18.

The sin the world is convicted of is unbelief in Jesus, John 16:9. And the law is not of faith, Gal 3:12. Thus we see any doctrines of righteousness by works of the law, is unbelief.
---Haz27 on 7/11/14


(Galatians 6:8) "For he that sows to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption, but he that sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting."

Warwick
If sin is how we sow to the flesh, wouldn't an act of faith, be how we sow to the Spirit?
And if we sow to the spirit, what does Paul, say we will reap?
If we will not reap Eternal Life by sowing to the Spirit, why did Paul say we will?

Paul taught this very same lesson, in (Romans 2:5-7), when he said, "God, who will render to each one according to his deeds: Eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good"

Read it for yourself folks, it's what the Bible says, it's not a doctrine I made up.
---David on 7/11/14


//I would think confusion comes in the church when the people themselves already have confusion in their personal lives and therefore are not prepared to deal with anything on a calm logical manner.''

Dear Darline,
You are right. Believers might have the love of Christ, yet many hold on to one sin that causes them problems, pride. In other cases, many enter the church with their own pre-conceive idea's just as many of the early church fathers did. They brought their pagan ideas into the church for many reasons. God, who is perfect and righteous has blinded many for many good reasons. Other times He allows Satan to blind others who enter the church.
Yet, the elect will never fail. God has made sure of that. Agape
---Luke on 7/11/14


Send a Free Blessings Ecard


Within about 100 years after the death of the Apostle John, pagan traditions began supplanting Christian truth. This trend continued until the Roman Catholic Church set her doctrines above those of the Bible, and even suppressed the Bible during the dark ages.

With the Protestant Reformation, Reformers began discovering the Bible truths so long hidden under pagan error. With each discovery, it seems a new denomination was born. This process still continues today and there are now hundreds of Christian denominations.

Study your Bible, and let it be your guide. In heaven, there will be only one denomination, and it will be the one that agrees with the entire Bible.


---jerry6593 on 7/11/14


Here is my answer:
Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Hosea 4:7 As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.
---trey on 7/10/14


Acts 10:4 "..., What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God."
Acts 10:22 "And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, ..."
Acts 10:24 "And the morrow after they entered into Caesarea. And Cornelius waited for them, and had called together his kinsmen and near friends."
Acts 10:34_35 "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."


Those verses support David's contention.
---Nana on 7/10/14


1John 4:19

We love him, because he first loved us.

See also John 3:16.


Rev 1:5

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

First GOD loves us then as we turn to love Him we change and start doing His will and sooner or latter His will becomes our will.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 7/10/14


Read These Insightful Articles About Bullion


/In (John 14:23) Jesus says, God makes his home with us after we do what he says, not before we do what he says.\-David on 7/10/14
It doesn't say that.
You would have it read "...he will keep My word, and {then} my Father will love him..."
The work is the evidence of the love and also the evidence of the Father abiding, for there is no love apart from God.
He first loved us...
Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Believe-Be sealed-Produce good works(fruits) through the Holy Spirit of God, and not just on your own unless you boast.
Our righteousness is as filthy rags without Christ.
Without Him we can do nothing.-Through Him we can do all things.
---micha9344 on 7/10/14


I would think confusion comes in the church when the people themselves already have confusion in their personal lives and therefore are not prepared to deal with anything on a calm logical manner. Differing religious beliefs with already confused people become much larger and more important than they really are and the person doesn't have the patience or wisdom to deal calmly about them. People just don't learn to pray and let go to let God lead the differing opinions in the church and let Him correct the ones who are wrong. Faith in action while praying for God's leading will bring more peace than people can even imagine. God always handles every part of our lives,including Spiritual ones than we can. God Bless
---Darlene_1 on 7/10/14


David, talk about confusion in the churches, now you seem to be arguing against your original position.

John 14:23 says if we truly love Jesus we will be obedient to that which He has taught. Therefore a true Christian will be one who shows His faith in Christ by good works. "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" Ephesians 2:10. As James says (2:18) a real and living faith has both faith and works. No confusion here!
---Warwick on 7/10/14


The following teaching causes much confusion.

//Paul, alone explained the mystery information revealed to us...//

John, the beloved says,
"Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God, the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting, for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds."
---Rod4Him on 7/10/14


Read These Insightful Articles About Menopause


(John 14:23) "If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him." I cannot see how this assists your position, please explain -Warwick

Warwick
In (John 14:23) Jesus says, God makes his home with us after we do what he says, not before we do what he says.

If Jesus taught as you believe, it should read, "If anyone loves me, My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him, and then he will keep my word."

Understand?
---David on 7/10/14


A lot of confusion is caused when we believe, the OT began with Genesis one, and the NT began with Matthew one, or the dispensation of the grace of God began in Acts two
Some even believe the Church and Israel are one or that the Church has replaced Israel.
The message of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery given to Paul represents the doctrinal conclusion of building on fundamentals of Christianity.
Paul, alone explained the mystery information revealed to us, gives major proof texts to every fundamental doctrine of Christianity inspiration (2 Tim 3:16), deity (Col 2:9), substitutionary atonement (2 Cor 5:21), and resurrection (1 Cor 15:16-17).

After years confusion to prevents growth in the church.
---michael_e on 7/9/14


David you quote (John 14:23) "If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him."

I cannot see how this assists you position, please explain.
---Warwick on 7/9/14


"So you are speaking about someone who is already a believer in Christ. Who produces works after he is saved. Not before." And this is what James the apostle is carefully explaining. -Warwick

Warwick
We need to look at all the evidence, not just that evidence which we believe proves us right.

James clearly says Abraham was justified by his works, that which he did because of his faith in Gods promise.
(James 2:24) You see then, that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.
---David on 7/9/14


Read These Insightful Articles About Christian Penpals


About belief, Christ said once, "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me." (John 14:1)

and

John 3:19_21 "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."

Their deeds were good already as they were, "wrought in God".
Likewise every good thing man does partakes of the light of God, (Romans 1:19).
---Nana on 7/9/14


David you quote (John 14:23) "If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him."

I cannot see how this assists you position, please explain.

I agree with what Luke says "So you are speaking about someone who is already a believer in Christ. Who produces works after he is saved. Not before." And this is what James the apostle is carefully explaining.
---Warwick on 7/8/14


//In (John 14:23), when does God make his home with us?
Is it before or after we keep his word?//

David, the passage says,
"Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me," he will keep My Word" and My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make Our home with him"
The passage tells us that only those who love Jesus will keep His word.
And who loves Jesus? those born of God. Those who are saved already. And what happens to them? Christ and the Father make their home in him. So you are speaking about someone who is already a believer in Christ. Who produces works after he is saved. Not before. Agape
---Luke on 7/8/14


What confusion among churches?
---love.jesus on 7/7/14


Read These Insightful Articles About Accounting


"The solution is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. (ch. 4)"
James_L on 7/6/14

>>>>

Romans 6:4 "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."
Colossians 2:12 "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."
---Nana on 7/7/14


James, I answered this earlier however apparently it was not posted.

James 2:14 "What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?" and as he later says "faith without works is dead, i.e. not real faith at all. Or as Tasker says "The inevitable conclusion is that, while it is faith which justifies, for James never denies this fundamental truth, faith is never static......Therefore obedience expressing itself in action is the inevitable and immediate issue of faith.....the life of sanctification is not a life of faith only, it is a life of what may be called faith obedience."
---Warwick on 7/7/14


(John 14:23) "If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him."

Warwick
In (John 14:23), when does God make his home with us?
Is it before or after we keep his word?
You say good works come after you are saved, when Jesus taught good works come before, he makes his home with you.

James even used one of the commands which would come from the Lord, as his example in (James 2:15-16) of faith by works.
If you believe in the Lords promise in (John 14:21), you will do what he tells you to do. These works are called faith, faith which has value.

When Paul taught "Works", he was talking about the Law of Moses.
---David on 7/7/14


Thank you James and Warwick,

It is so good to hear that many still defend the truth brought out by Wesley and others.

We obey GOD because we are saved. To believe in JESUS is to live for JESUS.
---Samuelbb7 on 7/7/14


Read These Insightful Articles About Fundraisers


If works of faith in Jesus Christ, are not required to receive Eternal Life, why would Paul say in (Romans 2:6-7), that Eternal Life is a reward for doing good?
---David on 7/6/14

If you read carefully Romans 1-4, Paul is flowing from bad news to good news.

God does reward those who by doing good seek glory. Everyone - Being a Jew counts for nothing anymore (ch. 2)

Therein lies the rub - we've all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. (ch. 3)

The solution is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. (ch. 4)

Then we are returned to our state of righteousness, whereby we can share in Christ's glory, at the renewal of all things (8:14-30, see Matt 19:28-29)
---James_L on 7/6/14


David, from my study of Scripture, from commentaries, and listening to many preachers over the many decades, on this very subject, I am very confident there is no contradiction between what Paul and James have written. The Bible is, after all, God's word. Is God divided?

Interestingly, and relevantly of James 2:24 RVG Tasker writes "The inevitable conclusion is that, while it is faith which justifies, for James never denies this fundamental truth, faith is never static......Therefore obedience expressing itself in action is the inevitable and immediate issue of faith.....the life of sanctification is not a life of faith only,it is a life of what may be called faith obedience."
---Warwick on 7/6/14


David, regarding James 2:24 Gill writes "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified,.... Not as causes procuring his justification, but as effects declaring it, for the best works are imperfect, and cannot be a righteousness justifying in the sight of God, . they are no other than what it is a man's duty to perform, and therefore cannot justify from sin he has committed: and besides, justification in this sense would frustrate the grace of God, make void the death of Christ, and encourage boasting in men. Good works do not go before justification as causes or conditions, but follow it as fruits and effects: .Apostle James does not contradict the Apostle Paul in Romans 3:28......."
---Warwick on 7/6/14


David, it is clear to me James says the faithful, who follow Jesus their Saviour, will prove their faith is real by the good works they willingly do. -Warwick

Warwick
I'm trying to get you to see,
that you're allowing your doctrine to guide you, and for this reason, your not seeing what James actually said.

If James was teaching what you say,(James 2:24) would read,
"We are justified by faith alone, and not by works."
But James didn't say that did he?
James said, "A man is justified by works and not by faith alone."
---David on 7/6/14


Read These Insightful Articles About Ecommerce


David & Warwick while we do not always agree on how to say it.

I believe we are in general agreement.

Those who follow JESUS obey Him.


John 14:15

If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 15:10

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love, even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
---Samuelbb7 on 7/6/14


David, it is clear to me James says the faithful, who follow Jesus their Saviour, will prove their faith is real by the good works they willingly do. Conversely James says those who claim to have faith, but have no works will not be saved.
---Warwick on 7/6/14

James said no such thing as anyone proving their faith is real.

He said they prove their faith is mature. Big difference.

verses 2:12 and 3:1 place his words squarely in the context if the Judgment Seat of Christ, where our works will be tested by fire to determine rewards for faithfulness
---James_L on 7/6/14


David, it is clear to me James says the faithful, who follow Jesus their Saviour, will prove their faith is real by the good works they willingly do. Conversely James says those who claim to have faith, but have no works will not be saved.
---Warwick on 7/6/14


Not until Paul was salvation offered by grace through faith alone apart from any special nation or covenants or works -Michael e

(Romans 2:5-7) God, who "will render to each one according to their deeds", Eternal Life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality

Michael
If works of faith in Jesus Christ, are not required to receive Eternal Life, why would Paul say in (Romans 2:6-7), that Eternal Life is a reward for doing good?

It's because he was teaching, works by faith in Christ, are works which have value. Which is also what James is teaching in (James 2).
---David on 7/6/14


Read These Insightful Articles About Jewelry


Nana,
first you accuse me of being a dog, even called me a dog, now you accuse me of been someone else. Your personal attacks only show what kind of fruits are in your heart.
"The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually" Gen. 6:5
That is what is in your heart continually, wicked thoughts.
---Luke on 7/6/14


James writes to the twelve tribes concerning Israel's faith and hope. Israels hope was in salvation offered by the coming King and promised kingdom (Luke 1:68-75). Peter presented this information for acceptance by faith. Acts 2:36
Peter called on Israel to repent and perform the works necessary to exhibit their repentance. Matt 5:20
James reasons a man reaches justification, the proof of salvation, through the necessary works. James 2:24

Not until Paul was salvation offered by grace through faith alone apart from any special nation or covenants or works (Rom 4:5, Eph 2:8-9, Rom 11:6, Eph 2:12).
Paul offered hope of salvation based soley on the preaching of the cross (1 Cor 15:1-4 Eph 2:7, Romans 5:2-4).
---michael_e on 7/5/14


Very good points Warwick and Adetunji. Both of you are correct -Luke

Mark V
Who do you think you're fooling with your name change?
Your statement, "Both of you are correct", is your trademark. No one else would makes such a pious statement, making oneself Gods arbiter.

I don't respond to your replies because I don't care for the deceit in people. And why would you change your name except to deceive? Is this what I should expect when I talk with a Calvinist?
---David on 7/5/14


Very good points Warwick and
Adetunji. Both of you are correct. There is no contradiction in Paul and James statements. Paul speaks of faith for salvation, James speaks of faith that produce no works as being a false faith. Because God is not working in the life. All who have true faith, have the Spirit of God working in their lives.
Claiming to be saved is easy, but proofing by showing the evidence of salvation is another thing.
When a person is saved, he immediately begins to show his good works because the Spirit of Christ is working in his life. God gets the glory. Agape
---Luke on 7/5/14


Read These Insightful Articles About Furniture


James says that such good works are the evidence of salvation, faith and actions working together.-Warwick

Warwick & Adetunji
Help me to better understand your beliefs, with what have written.
You both believe justification comes after salvation, not before?
We are saved, and then justified?
---David on 7/5/14


David, I disagree, I believe Paul and James' teachings are well reconciled. One does not contradict the other as I wrote.

Adetunji, puts it well 'James is in essence saying, any claim of having faith in Christ that is deficient of good works is a "false faith"'

Read 2:15,16 and you will see James is talking about everyday good works, physically helping those "without clothes and daily food." James says that such good works are the evidence of salvation, faith and actions working together.
---Warwick on 7/4/14


David: In James 2:24 that you quoted below, A. James did not say that "true faith" has nothing to do with justification but that "true faith which births good work" justifies. James is in essence saying, any claim of having faith in Christ that is deficient of good works is a "false faith" claim. James is correct & not against Paul. Paul says faith in Christ leads to salvation but today some other religions preach that it is only when their good works outweighs their bad (without faith in Christ) that will get them to Paradise. It is good work without faith in Christ that Paul preached against (this is correct also).
---Adetunji on 7/4/14


I cannot see how James promotes works above salvation by faith. -Warwick

(James 2:24) You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Warwick
Please look at it again. Don't be fooled into thinking it says what you believe.

Paul and James both use the word "Works" in their teachings. Paul was teaching about works by the Law of Moses, while James was teaching about works by the Law of Jesus Christ.

What makes the example in (James 2:15-16) an act of faith, is the promise Jesus made in (John 14:21) and his command to love your neighbor.
---David on 7/4/14


Read These Insightful Articles About Laptops


David :// I'm saying since the church has not reconciled their teachings, they have created the appearance of conflict, and thus, a separation in the church.//
In my opinion, there is no division in the body of Christ caused by A. Paul & James. Paul says "salvation is by faith in Jesus" (this can be likened to a house foundation). James said "faith in Christ produces good works" (this can be likened to what is built on the house foundation). There is no division, no conflict.
---Adetunji on 7/4/14


There is no confusion in the Bible, it may exist in your own understanding of what Apostles Paul & James wrote. Adetunji

Adetunji
Don't misunderstand, I'm not saying there is conflict between Paul and James.
I'm saying since the church has not reconciled their teachings, they have created the appearance of conflict, and thus, a separation in the church.

When the teachings are relatively easy to reconcile.
---David on 7/3/14


I cannot see how James promotes works above salvation by faith. Addressing himself to his "brothers" he is simply saying that those who were saved by God's free gift, by faith, will be obvious by the good works they do. He writes "Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do" 2:18. Where is the confusion or contradiction in that?
---Warwick on 7/3/14


To get rid of doing works you want to remove the book of James from the New Testament?

But Galatians also teaches we are not to sin and do good. Along with Romans 6,7, & 8


Gal 5:19-21

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these, Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

This is a longer list then then the Ten Commandments but you see them in there.
---Samuelbb7 on 7/3/14


Read These Insightful Articles About Lawyer


//It is pointless arguing about faith v. works because we are told that 'faith without works is dead'//
James is writing to a specific group of people (Gal 2:9)
James 1:11 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, TO THE TWELVE TRIBES which are scattered abroad, greeting.
The Church, the boC is one body (Rom 12:25 1Cor 12:19, 12:27) it doesn't have 12 tribes.
The key is 2 Tim :15 "rightly dividing the word of truth"
Give the nation of Israel what belongs to them and give the Church what belongs to them.
---michael_e on 7/3/14


"leon, I absolutely agree with your post. we will always have tares everywhere."
---shira4368 on 7/2/14


Regardless of what "Leon" says, it's just the plain Bible truth & reality Shira. Thx! :)
---Leon on 7/3/14


James 2:14-26
It is pointless arguing about faith v. works because we are told that 'faith without works is dead'. Maybe one person focuses 'more' on faith and another person focuses 'more' on works but both go together nevertheless.

If someone uses the one to the exclusion of the other they go against what scripture tells us.
---Rita_H on 7/3/14


David: There is no confusion in the Bible, it may exist in your own understanding of what Apostles Paul & James wrote. You may ask others around you to clarify what looks confusing to you.
---Adetunji on 7/3/14


Read These Insightful Articles About Dedicated Hosting


leon, I absolutely agree with your post. we will always have tares everywhere.
---shira4368 on 7/2/14


There's confusion in church-houses & congregations. But, there's no confusion in the blood bought, Bible believing body of Christ, the Church (born again believers).

The enemy of our souls has been waging war against the Church since the first century A.D. He has sent & planted his imps (chaff/tares) in church-house congregations (pulpits & pews) worldwide to religiously introduce false doctrines & damnable heresies, & to create confusion & discourage unbelievers from becoming believers.
---Leon on 7/2/14


When people stop personally praying, studying, and rightly dividing Gods word it reflects in their marriages, families, and churches
---mchael_e on 7/2/14


(James 2:24), says a Man is justified by his works, but this teaching from James is in total conflict with what Paul taught in (Romans 4). And (Romans 4) is in conflict with what Paul taught in (Romans 2). With this in mind, it's very easy to understand why there are so much confusion in the church.

There are basically two camps. The church either teaches what James taught in (James 2) and ignores what Paul taught in (Romans 4), or they teach what Paul taught in (Romans 4) and ignore what James taught in (James 2).

Neither camp, seems to want to seek out the reason for this apparent conflict. If they did, they could easily reconcile both teachings as one, which could reconcile many church doctrines into one.
---David on 7/2/14


Read These Insightful Articles About Online Marketing


1st. Cor.14 v 33. So then the devil is the author, Confusion delusion. No doubt Diane meant teachings. Trinity Matt. 15 v 9.
A mister friend Don Simmons, saying the other day. A man from 1 of the doctrines commandments of men trinity relig org's saying to him, there is no foundation basis for Acts 2 v 38 Church. Such Lies upon Lies the devil the trinity founder has for his followers.
Matt. 16 v 18, Jesus gave the directive to Peter, Acts 2 v 38 Church came to pass on the day of Pentecost. And Still for us today.
---Lawrence on 7/1/14


Cluny: My personal impression, while your question is completely correct, is that Diane means probably means a confusion in the 'total' Church - meaning in reality differences between people of different church backgrounds.
---Peter on 7/1/14


Please explain what you mean by this question.

Do you mean different doctrines among different churches?

Do you mean confusion and ignorance in certain members of one congregation?

Your question can mean either, or other things as well, so please elaborate.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/1/14


Copyright© 1996-2015 ChristiaNet®. All Rights Reserved.