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When Did Heaven Start

At what point in time (in scripture) did people begin going to heaven when they die?

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 ---1stcliff on 8/23/14
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RichardC on 9/8/14

1 Corinthians 15:43 - It is sown in dishonor, it is Raised in Glory : It is sown in weakness it is Raised in power.
1 Corinthians 15:44 - It is sown a natural body, it is Raised a Spiritual Body, There is a natural body , and a Spiritual Body,

---
Sorry can't see how this says a spirit or soul is united with a body.

Sure there is a change. This body is given immortality and other attributes we don't have now.
---therese on 9/8/14


He was either not dead or not God. Which is it ?

---1stcliff on 9/8/14

Cliff, that is nonsense. Christ was dead, but God his Father was not dead..... The statement of Christ's death are too many to avoid or ignore.

If you are denying that Christ was God (the other way of proving your statement), you have to claim Jesus was lying - which is ridiculous

So Christ was God, and Christ died
---Peter on 9/8/14


Leon/Cluny, **Scripture says that God became man to die for the remission of our sins**
Maybe neither of you understand the word "immortal"?
So you're saying when He became man,to die, He was temporarily no longer the immortal God ?
To say that , while dead, He resurrected Himself is pure bafflegab ! He was either not dead or not God. Which is it ?
Scripture says "The dead know nothing " Eccl.
---1stcliff on 9/8/14


"Thank you for your answer, Leon.

I couldn't have expressed it better myself.

Glory to Jesus Christ!"
---Cluny on 9/8/14


Thank you Cluny. Let's hope & pray Cliff will believe & receive the truth in the matter.
---Leon on 9/8/14


therese 9/8/14 - Nowhere does scripture describe reuniting of soul with a body at that time?

1 Corinthians 15:43 - It is sown in dishonor, it is Raised in Glory : It is sown in weakness it is Raised in power.
1 Corinthians 15:44 - It is sown a natural body, it is Raised a Spiritual Body, There is a natural body , and a Spiritual Body,
---RichardC on 9/8/14




Thank you for your answer, Leon.

I couldn't have expressed it better myself.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/8/14


Considering the request was "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom," in reference to His tangible kingdom, which will not come into existence until after He returns. This response would have been the only appropriate one, "Assuredly, I say to you, [that] day you will be with Me in Paradise."

---joseph on 9/7/14

The only problem with this Joseph is the earthly tangible Kingdom after His return is the earthly Kingdom reign. The earthly Kingdom is never called "Paradise". And Paul being "taken up to paradise" could never have been taken there. What Jesus was saying is you don't have to wait until then because TODAY you will be with me.
---kathr4453 on 9/8/14


Correction to previous post. This line, "The word "to" in that verse"...should have read, "The [greek] word [eis] in that verse"......
The word today, as a combined word, does not appear in either the O.T. or N.T., according to the aforementioned translations, which agrees with Dr. Strong's word for word exhaustive concordance. What is meant as today is generally stated as "this day", of course there are exceptions in the Old, in the New there are not, other than Luke 23:43. "This day" is the only way that Jesus expressed, again according to the aforementioned translations, what He meant to be understood as "this very day". Mat 6:11>Mat 11:23>Mar 14:30>Luk 4:21>Luk 19:9>Luk 22:34
---joseph on 9/7/14


P.S. To complete a thought from my prior post. "What is meant as today is generally stated as "this day", of course there are exceptions in the Old, in the New there are not, other than Luke 23:43". I am not saying that Luke 23:43 is an exception, it is not, the accuracy of the quote, as translated, is questionable in my view. For in no other place in the N.T. are the words 'to' and 'day' used back to back, to even imply 'today', as in "this very day".
---joseph on 9/8/14


This whole argument about when people go or went to heaven hangs on the belief that a part of person goes somewhere at death.

There is much in the bible describing the second coming of Jesus and nowhere does scripture describe a reuniting of a soul/spirit with a body at that time.

The bible says the dead are raised, brought back to life. One wonders why we need a body if we can exist as a soul/spirit. If it was ok to be in heaven without a body for thousands of years for some, why the need for a body?
---therese on 9/8/14




//The Term Abrahams bosom comes from a Parable not a statement of fact.//

Samuel,
So what you are saying is that Jesus was lying when He gave the parable. That it was not a statement of fact. Don't you realize what you are doing just to support your false doctrines from the SDA's?
Don't you realize that Jesus is God and that whatever He says it is truth? He doesn't make any thing up that is not truth. Don't you realize there had to have been such a person, and since He is God He knows who went to heaven?
---Luke on 9/8/14


//At what point in time (in scripture) did people begin going to heaven when they die?//

1Ciff,
Spiritually the children of God, those born of the Spirit go to heaven spiritually when they are born of the Spirit.
"But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ by grace you have been saved and "raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus" this is a spiritual resurrection. (Eph. 2:4-6).
Physically, we will go to heaven bodily at the Second Coming when our physical bodies are glorified.
---Luke on 9/8/14


"Cluny, **But he was also fully God"
Explain how an ""immortal" God
could die! Is the scripture that says "only God has immortality" not true?"
---1stcliff on 9/7/14


Yes Cliff: Jesus was/is fully God & fully man. Jesus, the God man, died on the cross. Scripture says that God became man to die for the remission of our sins. That means that God chose to die in our place, but because HE IS GOD, He has the power to resurrect Himself back to life. Think about it ~ HE IS GOD, able to do the incomprehensible impossible.
---Leon on 9/7/14


Cluny, **But he was also fully God"
Explain how an ""immortal" God
could die !
Is the scripture that says "only God has immortality" not true ?
---1stcliff on 9/7/14


Sam: 1.) In the Bible, Abraham's bosom is a virtual paradise where the souls of believers went (go) to after physical death.
(a) Elijah didn't die. God just took him up in a whirlwind.
(b) I personally believe Jesus' parable of the rich man & Lazarus as a statement of fact. Why wouldn't it be?
2.) Yes, Jesus went to prepare a place for believers to "eventually" inhabit.
3.) Is it not possible that the two compartments of Hades are major continents & each contain numerous minor compartments (regions, states...)?
---Leon on 9/7/14


The problem with the hades two compartments is huge.

First Hades means the Greek place of the dead which had a number of compartments.

The Term Abrahams bosom comes from a Parable not a statement of fact. It occurs in only one place in the Bible. So to get this view you have to build your theology on Greek Paganism and one single verse.

Where many verses say the Spirit of all go to be with the Father at death. Ecclesiastes 3:21 12:7

Elijah ascended into heaven. 2Kings 2:11 not Abrahams bosom.

JESUS went to prepare a place for us John 14:2 with His Father. Who lives in Heaven.
---Samuelbb7 on 9/7/14


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14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same, that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels, but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Cluny, no one said Jesus was not also fully God. He always was God before He took on human flesh to die for our sin.
---kathr4453 on 9/7/14


\\Jesus was body soul and spirit.\\

In His human nature, yes.

But He was also fully God.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/7/14


Exodus 16:25

25 And Moses said, Eat that to day, for to day is a sabbath unto the Lord: to day ye shall not find it in the field.

The idea that TO DAY means other than today cannot be found in scripture as ALL words saying today are written in two words TO DAY, through out the OT and new. There is not one word in the whole of the OT and New that is written "today" . Look it up. So we see in this verse in exodus and everywhere TO DAY is written , means that very day.
See for yourselves.
---kathr4453 on 9/7/14


Jesus was body soul and spirit. Thou will not leave MY soul in hell. Here hell is not the lake of fire, but hades, having two compartments, one of torment, the other paradise or Abraham's Bosom. Jesus was there for three days. When talking to Mary after He rose, did He not say, John 20:17. " Touch me not, for I am NOT YET ascended to my Father. ".
---kathr4453 on 9/7/14


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2 Corin12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell, or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth,) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth,) 4 how that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words he didn't SEE God...

Here Paul tells us that the THIRD heaven is also called Paradise. When Paul was caught up to the third heaven or Paradise says nothing about the highest heaven aka the Holy of Holies. No one entered the Highest heaven of all to be in the presence of God, or the Church being IN Christ until Jesus rose from the dead. Hebrews 12
---kathr453 on 9/7/14


Luke - Gave up his spirit

We are in hundred percent agreement on this one !
---RichardC on 9/7/14


Where 'we' choose to place a comma makes all the difference to the meaning but the original would have had no punctuation.
---Rita_H on 9/7/14


//To me this sounds like a conformation to the thief that Christ saved him - but that's my opinion , Now some commentaries have it Christ knew they were going to die that day , We also have a paradise in the third heaven, ------ 2 Corinthians 12:4//

Richard, I agree with your statement. Since Jesus is God, He knew the thief was going to heaven that day. People argue that Jesus did not go to heaven that day but they are wrong, His body did not go there yet but His Spirit did. He gave up His Spirit to the Father before He died physically. Agape
---Luke on 9/7/14


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Both the thief and Jesus went to the grave. Mat 12:40>Mat 16:21 As concerning this comment, "To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." Note that To and day are two separate words in the KJV, ASV, and DBY translations, and is how I personally believe that the verse should be rendered, for the following reasons. The word "to" in that verse can be defined as "to, this, or that". Considering the request was "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom," in reference to His tangible kingdom, which will not come into existence until after He returns. This response would have been the only appropriate one, "Assuredly, I say to you, [that] day you will be with Me in Paradise."
---joseph on 9/7/14


1st Cliff, no one entered Heaven until Jesus rose from the dead. Why? Because the way into the Holy of Holies, heaven itself was not yet opened . OT saints were in a place called Paradise, or Abraham's Bosom until that day. When Jesus said to the Man next to Him, TODAY you will be with me in Paradise, He was not referring to the Holy of Holies. Jesus went to Paradise, and lead captivity captive and then brought all the OT saints to Heaven, or the part called the Holy lf Holies. Jesus was the 1st to enter, through His own blood.

The whole picture shown in Hebrews was a picture of that of heaven given to Moses. You see, only the High Priest was allowed to enter into the Holy of Holies, pointing to Jesus Christ who is now our High Priest.
---kathr4453 on 9/7/14


Richard, I agree with you about the thief on the cross. One was forgiven because he ask and the other wasn't.
---shira4368 on 9/7/14


Luke - Today you will be with me in paradise,

To me this sounds like a conformation to the thief that Christ saved him - but that's my opinion , Now some commentaries have it Christ knew they were going to die that day , We also have a paradise in the third heaven, ------ 2 Corinthians 12:4
---RichardC on 9/6/14


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//I believe JESUS meant I am saying this to you today.//

Samuel, the only reason someone would interpret the passages the way you stated is if they are against a believer being with God when they died.
Why would Jesus say He was speaking that day? They knew He was speaking already on that day. They were not hearing His voice from tomorrow?
"And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in paradise" (Luke 23:43). Jesus did not have to say,"I am speaking to you today, when they knew already the day He was speaking. Don't try to change the meaning of the word of God for your own false doctrines.
---Luke on 9/6/14


I believe JESUS meant I am saying this to you today. When all those around me are forsaking me I am telling you today that you will be with me in heaven.

There is a doctrine which I disagree with. Called the Harrowing of hell. In which Jesus descended into hell and took out his people.
---Samuelbb7 on 9/5/14


---Peter on 9/4/14 The question of Christ's comment about 'today' in Luke is more difficult.

Was jesus saying to the thief on the cross, I am saying this to you right now, (today, when it doesnt look like I am the Son of God) you will be with me in paradise.

Could it be possible Jesus just rested in the grave until resurrection morning.

He did not go to the Father in heaven for He said to Mary on resurrection morning, I have not yet ascended to my Father.
---therese on 9/5/14


StrongAxe - Those are really good questions. Regarding Steven, is asking God to receive your spirit the same thing as asking him to take you to heaven? It might be and it might not. Jesus and the thief and Paradise seem little trickier. Where actually did Jesus go on the day he died? I certainly don't have all the answers. I am still trying to figure it out myself. I appreciate very much your response.
---learner2 on 9/4/14


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Peter:

This is exactly why it is can be dangerous to develop any kind of strong dogmatic theological position on any issue based on a single verse!
---StrongAxe on 9/4/14


StrongAxe on 9/4/14: Your comment about Stephen is not a specific problem, for Jesus could receive his spirit but not place him in heaven right then.

The question of Christ's comment about 'today' in Luke is more difficult. We are not certain of course if the word in Aramaic meant exactly the same as the word in Greek it was translated into.

However, I can only say that this is one of those things where I cannot say exactly what the correct answer is - I usually assume all will wait till the end of the world, but that of course disagrees with Christ's comment.

As a result, I do not have a particular view - what I said is just the easier of the two for me to believe, not necessarily the correct answer
---Peter on 9/4/14


learner2:

1) On the cross, Jesus told the thief "today you will be with me in paradise".

2) Years later, When Stephen was stoned (Acts 7:55-60), he saw Jesus in heaven, and said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."

3) Decades later, John wrote that nobody but Jesus ever ascended to heaven.

So, what happened to the thief, and to Stephen? Did they go to heaven, or not?
---StrongAxe on 9/4/14


2 Corinthians 12:2 - Knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago ( whether in the Body, I can not tell : or whether out of the body, I cannot tell, God Knoweth: such an one caught up to the Third heaven,

Deuteronomy 10 :14 - Indeed heaven and the hightest heaven belongs to the Lord your God, also earth with all that it is,

2 Corinthians 5:8 - We are Confindent I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body , and be present with the Lord,

( There seems to be different levels of Heaven - God being at the Highest )
---RichardC on 9/4/14


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Heaven is the dwelling place of GOD so it has always existed.

Those who oppose the Bible being true always say it was many decades before they were written. When in fact we do not know when they were written.

No one goes to heaven when they die. The Bible teaches the Resurrection of the dead to go to heaven.


John 5:28,29

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth, they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Read First Corinthians 15.
---Samuelbb7 on 9/4/14


**This was not a vision**
Wrong ! read verse 9.
---1stcliff on 9/3/14

The greek for vision here (Horama) can be either
1. that which is seen, spectacle, or

2. a sight, divinely granted in an ecstasy or in a sleep, a vision. (Vine's Expository Dictionary.)

Was this a half supernatural vision, half reality? As Jesus was really there, I believe Moses and Elijah were too.

Luke uses this same greek word in Acts 7:31 when describing what Moses saw at the burning bush. Was that a supernatural vision or was the burning bush really there? KJV and almost all other versions use the word sight for this in Acts 7:31.

Vision (Horama) is not used only to describe a supernatural vision.
---therese on 9/3/14


StrongAxe, I think I am not quite understanding what you have asked me.
---learner2 on 9/3/14


learner2:

Since Acts happened in the years following Jesus's death and resurrection, and the gospels were written decades later, what does this say about Stephen? Did he ascend to heaven, or not?
---StrongAxe on 9/3/14


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It is my understanding that only Jesus has ascended to heaven.

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. (John 3:13)
---learner2 on 9/3/14


Genesis 5:24 - And Enoch walked with God and he was not : for God took him.

( God took - Enoch away - )

2 Kings 2:11 - And it came to pass,as they went on, and talked that behold there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder: and Elijah went up by a whirl wind into heaven,

Jude 1:14 - And Enoch also the seventh from Adam prophesies of these , Saying behold the Lord cometh with ten thousand of his saints ,

( At judgment day: Christ comes with Saints ------> Believers - Where have they been all this time ? )
---RichardC on 9/3/14


Theresa, **This was not a vision**
Wrong ! read verse 9.
---1stcliff on 9/3/14


It may be also that ships are called "she" because the Latin word for Ship, Navis, is feminine.
---learner2 on 9/2/14


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Why do some bloggers always hijack the topic and turn it into another? Moderator is there a reason you let this happen.

---Steveng on 8/26/14 Moses, Enoch and Elijah are dead, the bible says.

Where? Some may infer this from other verses. It is not stated plainly.

But Enoch and Moses were with Jesus when He was transfigured. This was not a vision, they were really there. They are alive.

I believe Elijah and Moses and Enoch are the exception, but all others wait for resurrection as the Scriptures teach in many places.

They were able to be saved because of Gods plans to save mankind. Gods plans are sure.
---therese on 9/2/14


Cluny:

You said: 1stCliff, did it occur to you that referring to the Holy Spirit as "It" wouldn't sound good in English?

Why not? Any other spirit is usually referred to as "it".

But how about "she"? That might be more grammatically accurate, but it would cause many theologians to tie their panties in a knot!
---StrongAxe on 9/2/14


//You fall into the same trap as all the biased translators who took the liberty of putting "He" in front of Spirit when the noun "Spirit" is not masculine in Greek!//

Cliff,
you might have left the J. Witnesses but you never left their doctrines nor their Bible.
Only a Person can speak, have a mind, a will, and emotions. He is a Person in John 16:13, He is identified as "I" in Acts 13:2.
The Holy Spirit has every attribute that the Father and Son have. He is also called the Spirit of Jesus, and the Spirit of the Father. If the Son and the Father are Persons, then this certainly does not make the Spirit a non-Person.
You are claiming the writers are wrong and you are right, but you are wrong.
---Luke on 9/2/14


Cluny, Calling a ship "she" is more of an endearment not an attempt to influence anyone to believe it "is" feminine.
Scripture does refer to Holy Spirit as "itself" in Romans.
In the case of bible translation "he" is used to promote the "trinity" doctrine and for no other reason!
---1stcliff on 9/2/14


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1stCliff, did it occur to you that referring to the Holy Spirit as "It" wouldn't sound good in English?

Even in English, ships are spoken of in the feminine, though they have no biology.

In most languages, grammatical gender doesn't always correspond to biology--or in this case masculinity vs. femininity.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/1/14


Luke, You fall into the same trap as all the biased translators who took the liberty of putting "He" in front of Spirit when the noun "Spirit" is not masculine in Greek! (look it up)
It is put there to influence the gullible !
Both God and his Son Jesus "SEND" the Holy Spirit to accomplish certain tasks!

People say "The TV says rain today" but actually the TV doesn't say anything it is just the medium used to convey info !
---1stcliff on 9/1/14


Some on this blog have stated that the saved went to heaven when Jesus died.

The apostle Peter could not have known that, because he stated (Acts 2:29) that David was dead and buried. Nothing about any part of him being in heaven. Maybe Peter though David was not saved.

Also Paul didnt comfort the Thessalonians about their loved ones saying they were in heaven. (1 Thess 4:13-18) He directed their thoughts to the resurrection on the last day. It appears he didn't think they were in heaven.
---therese on 9/1/14


//Nowhere in scripture does it say that the Holy Spirit is a "person?"//

1Ciff,
The Holy Spirit is a person, here let me help you'
"However, when "He" the Spirit of Truth, has come, "He" will guide you into all truth, for "He" will speak on "His" own authority. but whatever "He" hears "He" will speak: And "He" will tell you things to come" (John 16:13).
He is a person. There is many other passages that indicate the Holy Spirit is a Person.
---Luke on 8/31/14


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Luke , How can God be greater than Himself?
Nowhere in scripture does it say that the Holy Spirit is a "person?"
---1stcliff on 8/30/14


//How come you can't see through the thick fog that they are not the same person?
Logical, reasonable and scriptural!
Why do you cling to an "ism"?//

1 Cliff,
He was saying what you just said, that they are different Persons, the Father and the Son. So he is seeing through the fog. The Father is a Person, the Son is a person, and the Holy Spirit is a person. Clearly shown in the Bible. The Three Persons in their divine nature are the same God. God is Spirit. who manifest Himself in three Persons.
---Luke on 8/30/14


aka, I am mostly guided by logic and reason.consider this,
God called Jesus His Son,(not brother, father ,uncle or any other relationship). His Son ,as such has always been subservient to the Father (not an equal partner in a triune entity),Right?
Jesus Himself said "My Father is greater than I" (did He lie?)
I and My Father are one ,like husband and wife are one or the US Army is an army of one !
How come you can't see through the thick fog that they are not the same person?
Logical, reasonable and scriptural!
Why do you cling to an "ism"?

,
---1stcliff on 8/28/14


cliff, every few months since i have been posting here (2009)...i go round and round with someone with your beliefs and we quote the same verses and logic. not one of regulars on this blog have changed significantly from the stance that they have always held. so, it really would not benefit you or me to do it again.

nevertheless, you had mentioned that you are no longer subject to the WTS cult and you have not decided about michael because you haven't done enough study. who you identify as savior is the most important endeavor in life. since your reading material is not restricted anymore by the WTS, i would encourage you to do that.
---aka on 8/28/14


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aka, Doesn't "breathing into Adam's nostrils" give you a clue?
The Red Sea was parted by a great wind ((pneuma) Jesus breathed on His disciples and said "receive Holy Spirit"
Holy Spirit descended on Christ as a bird at His baptism
At Pentecost it was tongues of fire.
Really,aka, this is a "person"? or God's power?
---1stcliff on 8/27/14


//aka, Is your breath (pneuma/spirit) immortal? bible does not say so// where? and please do not quote the same tired verses that are singled out and incomplete to the whole context of the message.you think breath of God is inanimate. i don't.

//Three separate entities that make up one Godhead is a "corporate " god !contrary to Deut. 6.4// Elohim gives me a clue to the further revelation of the Godhead which is contained in a volume of books that you do not believe in. To you, it is super-god and that is hidden polytheism.

//I have not studied enough about Michael...// i will agree with that. if, as on the other blog, you said that you went door to door for the JWs, only WTS has studied up on Michael.
---aka on 8/27/14


aka, Is your breath (pneuma/spirit) immortal? bible does not say so
Three separate entities that make up one Godhead is a "corporate " god !contrary to Deut. 6.4 .
Can you show a fire in Sheol (hell)translated 31 times as "grave"
I have not studied enough about Michael to make a judgement either way !
But I do believe that Jesus is God's Son.! Not His brother !
---1stcliff on 8/26/14


Jesus saith unto Martha, "Thy brother shall rise again."

Martha replied, "I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

---

Moses, Enoch and Elijah are dead, the bible says.

---

No one has gone to heaven until Jesus' return and the dead in Christ shall rise first and the living shall be caught up with the dead. If the dead are already in heaven, why make such a statement?

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
---Steveng on 8/26/14


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cliff, yes i did answer, then i posed a counter question. after posting on here for over 5 years, i know what your core beliefs are(michael as christ, soul memory, et al). you mean to tell me your list is what you think i beleive in? if so, you pay no attention to no one but you.

God gives us a breath (spirit) and it returns to him. (Ecc 12:7)

i don't believe in trinity, i believe in triunity. father, Holy Spirit, and Son are separate entities that make up one Godhead. 1tim 3:16

hell fire - endless debate that takes far more than 125.

and my parents are catholic. i am adenominational as you are. we just have far different conclusions. can you show in scripture where it says that michael is christ?
---aka on 8/26/14


aka, You answered the question with a question which is no answer!
Your core beliefs are immortality of the soul, trinity and hell fire ,the same as Catholics, which makes you Catholic or ex Catholic...right?
None of the above is supported by scripture,regardless of JW's belief!
---1stcliff on 8/26/14


I answered the question... a question that is asked by you about every other week in one way or another. Next you will ask a question about the soul living eternally.

You were kicked out by the Jws and your family was stolen by them and you still have the same basic beliefs. At least that is what I understood from your previous posts.

It is a tactic of mine. Divert the subject to what is important. ...my savior. We cannot discuss secondary things using the bible because you only use the verses that support your beliefs.
---aka on 8/25/14


aka, Talk about "tactics" suddenly you switched this blog to "Michael".
Slight-of- hand maybe no one will notice??
Your post was obviously directed to me who has no connection to JWs.
Stay with the theme !
---1stcliff on 8/25/14


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aka:

You wrote: some groups forbade their followers to interpret scripture and leave bible interpretation to them and not the followers.

It's one thing to develop an esoteric ideology by weaving intricate meanings into various scriptures, requiring much careful interpretation. It's quite another when what one teaches is directly and plainly contradicted by a scripture that anyone can see clearly without any interpretation.
---StrongAxe on 8/25/14


StrongAxe: //The idea that Jesus is Michael is believed by Seventh Day Adventists and Jehovah's Witdessesses, and virtually nobody else. There is no scripture that actually says this. In fact, it is directly contradicted by Hebrews 1:5-8//

Yes, Hebrews 1: 5-14 makes false their claim.

Plus this is another basic fact, Angels do not accept man's worship Rev.19:10, 22:8-9, the Lord Jesus Christ does.
---Adetunji on 8/25/14


so how they can reconcile their beliefs with this scripture is totally beyond me.
---StrongAxe on 8/24/14

how?

some groups forbade their followers to interpret scripture and leave bible interpretation to them and not the followers.

one time the jws came to my home. after going round and round with them week after week (they were not expecting someone with basic bible knowledge and someone who knew their tactics), they handed me a book that was titled, "What The Bible Really Says." i threw it in my trash can (outside-do not let them in) and said let's read the Bible to see what the Bible says. I never saw them again.
---aka on 8/25/14


aka:

You asked: now, you tell me, at what point in time (in scripture) does it say that the Archangel Michael and Jesus are the same making, Michael the Savior? Was it when some groups forbade their followers to interpret scripture and leave bible interpretation to them and not the followers?

The idea that Jesus is Michael is believed by Seventh Day Adventists and Jehovah's Widnessesses, and virtually nobody else. There is no scripture that actually says this. In fact, it is directly contradicted by Hebrews 1:5-8, so how they can reconcile their beliefs with this scripture is totally beyond me.
---StrongAxe on 8/24/14


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John 3 13 says " No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven the Son of Man "
That rules out Elijah and Enoch...when a person commits suicide it is said "He TOOK his own life"
Of Enoch it says God TOOK him, same thing , he will be resurrected with the Saints.
Christ is "first born from the dead "
---1stcliffs on 8/24/14


\\This is about when people went to heaven when they die, and neither one of them died.
---StrongAxe on 8/24/14
\\

I understand.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/24/14


Good point 'Axe. Since they didn't die, but, were translated (moved from one place or condition to another), by God, can we conclude they were taken directly to God's heaven? It's beyond our comprehension why God would do that. Only He knows why & that works for me!

Cliff: Answers to your question is ironically found in Scripture you don't believe, i.e., Luke 4:18, 16:22-23 & 23:42-43.

People started going to heaven when Jesus died & set the captives free from Paradise (Abraham's Bosom). Since then, the souls/spirits/minds of departed saints (upon the physical death of one's body) go directly to God in heaven. (2 Cor. 5:6)

So, where are you Cliff since you also don't believe the writings of Paul?
---Leon on 8/24/14


there was a time when people were ordered not to read and interpret the bible reasoning that the clergy would do that for them because of their non-ability to know ancient hebrew, greek,and latin. thus, their ideas introduced are not in the bible. when the bible was anglicized and available to the masses, various words used in interpretation further muddied the waters. now, it is just more convenient to let others interpret the bible for them.

now, you tell me, at what point in time (in scripture) does it say that the Archangel Michael and Jesus are the same making, Michael the Savior? Was it when some groups forbade their followers to interpret scripture and leave bible interpretation to them and not the followers?
---aka on 8/24/14


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Cluny:

Enoch and Elijah don't really apply here. This is about when people went to heaven when they die, and neither one of them died.
---StrongAxe on 8/24/14


At what point in time (in scripture) did people begin going to heaven when they die? At no point. People die and are buried, their life returns to the Father who gave it. "His spirit departs, he returns to his earth, In that very day his plans perish.">Psa 146:4 NKJV
"When they breathe their last, they return to the earth, and all their plans die with them." NLT
"His spirit departs, he returns to the earth, In that very day his thoughts perish." NASB
For "Then shall the dust [from which the person was formed] return to the earth as it was: and the spirit [the life given the person] returns unto God who gave it." Ecc 12:7 Bracketed statements are of course my own thoughts.
---joseph on 8/24/14


In Genesis and in II Kings, Enoch and Elijah were translated somewhere.

My guess is that it was somewhere into Heaven, but I'm not going to argue the point, because I don't know.

Where do YOU think Enoch and Elijah were translated?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/23/14


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