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Angel Of The Lord

Who was the Angel of the Lord who appeared to Abraham, (Gen 22:15-18) Hagar, (Gen 16:9-13) Jacob, (Gen 31:11, 48:16),Moses, (Exodus 3:2-6, 14:19) The children of Israel (Judges 2:1-4), Gideon (Judges 6:11-20), Manoah and wife, (Judges 22:21-22) ?

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 ---therese on 9/10/14
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Yes Kathr, reading all of the chapter does not change my understanding.

You will not find the scripture that says Jesus is head of the angels, in those words, but plenty of verses to support He could be.

God bless all who have commented on this question. We can have different opinions and beliefs on this subject. It will not save or condemn us.

Do we love and follow God? That will determine our salvation.
---therese on 9/30/14


What verse says that Jesus is HEAD of the Angels? Scripture please.
---kathr4453 on 9/30/14


Kathr, I corrected the mistake about Judges chapter 22 in the 7th comment in this blog.

---therese on 9/30/14
Terese, my point was to read ALL of Judges 13, not just 2 verses 21 & 22.
---kathr4453 on 9/30/14


Luke. I have read the teaching of the JW. They are opposed to the teachings of E.G. White.

I have read many of her books and what they teach do not match. So you are perpetrating a lie. You have no proof at all.

Second though I believe in the Trinity and am condemned by Lawrence as a pagan for doing so. You condemn me for believing in a title of JESUS you disagree with. Earlier in this discussion it was agreed that the Angel of the LORD was JESUS. But you insist that the head of all the angels cannot be JESUS and I am lost because I do not agree with you.

I guess you do not believe grace is sufficient for me to be wrong on a title. That it is too great a what?

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 9/30/14


Kathr, I corrected the mistake about Judges chapter 22 in the 7th comment in this blog.
---therese on 9/30/14




Terese, Read judges 13:3 to the end of the chapter kathr4453 on 9/29/14

Manoah and his wife after seeing the Angel of the LORD, whom the wife described as a Man of God, said we shall surely die because WE HAVE SEEN GOD. Judges 13:22. So was God there and the angel as well.

Also in Judges 6, is the Angel of the LORD accompanied by the LORD. From verse 14 on, it is the LORD who speaks to him.

In all the verses of the blog question the Angel of the LORD appears, and then without any explanation, the LORD is speaking.
---therese on 9/30/14


//
Please use the truth to disagree and not perpetrate a lie.//

Samuel,
I speak the Truth. Charles Russell studied the teaching of E.G. White. If you insist on calling Jesus an archangel, you are stripping Him of His deity. For all archangels are created being. Jesus is not created. His God and ruler of all things even angels. His name is not Michael, His name is Jesus. No where are we told His name is Michael. Not one passage, so you are perpetrating a lie, against Christ. You are adding to Scripture what is not there.
"For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book, if anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book."
---Luke on 9/30/14


Terese, Read judges 13:3 to the end of the chapter. i see no Judges 22.

So this angel of the Lord announces another birth. Yet you say the one in the NT announcing a birth to Elizabeth and Mary is different than this one in the Old? How can you be so sure?

Judges 6... If you believe the angel of the Lord was in fact the Lord talking, the Lord would say " I " am with you.

Just as we see in Jude, Michael saying " the LORD rebuke you." Also clearly saying Michael himself would not bring a railing accusation against Satan.
---kathr4453 on 9/29/14


Kathr, Do I understand rightly that you believe that the being described as the Angel of the LORD in the verses quoted in the question is just a created angel, probably Gabriel.

If so please give reasons.
---therese on 9/29/14


Terese, please read these verses very carefully especially verse 12. Would the LORD refer to Himself in third person?

Judges 6:11-12
11 And there came an angel of the Lord, and sat under an oak which was in Ophrah, that pertained unto Joash the Abiezrite: and his son Gideon threshed wheat by the winepress, to hide it from the Midianites.

12 And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him, and said unto him, The Lord is with thee, thou mighty man of valour.
---kathr4453 on 9/29/14




We sing a song in the Seventh day Adventist church.

Holy Holy Holy LORD GOD almighty one in three persons blessed trinity. It is called the Doxology and many churches use it.

We agree JESUS CHRIST is GOD un-created equal with the Father.

We try to be careful about adding titles but to the same list ya'll have we only add two. Michael and Archangel. These do not mean we do not believe in the Trinity only we add two titles.

Russel as far as I know never read anything by E.G. White, she was a strong Triniterian teacher. As far as we know he did adopt a form of Conditionalism from us only.

Please use the truth to disagree and not perpetrate a lie.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 9/29/14


Kathr and others,

I wonder if you actually read all the blogs on a question before you comment. I have the feeling that some just read what is given as highlights (by the moderator) and then comment without considering all that has been written and what a blogger actually believes.

Angel of the Lord in the texts given in the question, many have agreed, this is LORD Yahweh or Jehovah, in some form. More than an angel. One needs to read many verses around the text to decide with the Holy Spirits guidance.

Sometimes the angel of the Lord is God, sometimes Gabriel, and at other times we are not told.
---therese on 9/29/14


Samuel, I would be very careful about adding Titles to Jesus that scripture does not add or say. Only if you can find 2 or 3 scriptures supporting a title that clearly says JESUS is the Angel of the Lord should you do that.

We see in the RCC Mary has been given HUNDREDS of titles equating her to the Trinity as well.

And why would Jesus want a title of a created being of an angel who we see were God's servants, messengers etc. As the very WORD OF GOD HIMSELF, He doesn't need to lower Himself to an Angel for His message to be heard.

We see the WORD was made flesh, but never see where the WORD was made an angel.
---kathr4453 on 9/29/14


Samuel,
I do apologize to you and all SDA's if you do not believe Jesus is Michael the Archangel. I remember you were arguing for that many times, but maybe I was wrong. If I am wrong then I am sorry. SDA's are innocent of such words then. I am happy that you do not believe that.
But if you do, you are stripping Jesus of His deity, for if He is an archangel He is a created being. SDA's teachings are almost the same as Jehovah Witnesses, Russell learned from E.G. White and he is the founder of the Jehovah Witnesses.
---Luke on 9/29/14


\\ I thought you understood that while we differ in one name and one title we accept JESSU CHRIST as one with the Father from all eternity and that we just add one name and one title to the hundreds of titles we agree on as pointing to JESUS. \\

That may be what SDAs believe now, but I have seen with my own eyes the exhibit #4 of the Revelation Seminars which try to prove that Jesus is the Archangel Michael.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/28/14


SDA's, Jehovah Witnesses insist He is an angel so they will do anything to strip Jesus of His deity by making Him an angel. Luke

Dearest Luke all this time I have been arguing with you about the Deity of JESUS and how the Trinity is true and then you lie and say we do not believe in it.

I thought you were a brother in Christ. I thought you understood that while we differ in one name and one title we accept JESSU CHRIST as one with the Father from all eternity and that we just add one name and one title to the hundreds of titles we agree on as pointing to JESUS.

So why this lying attack? What did I or we do that makes you ignore all the times Lawrence has condemned me a pagan trinity worshipper?
---Samuelbb7 on 9/28/14


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//John 5:25-28 states it is Jesus voice that bring the dead to life.

Jesus voice brought the dead back to life here o earth. Luke 7:14, Mark 5:41, John 11:43.//

Theresa,
in the passages you gave it is Jesus who is speaking. In the Second Coming it is Jesus who is speaking but here He is using the voice of an archangel. I do not know why. I do know there was no archangel with Him, or that He was an archangel, only that what He use was the voice of an archangel. I do not know why, but that is what the passage is saying. No use making things up that are not there. Scripture speaks for itself.
SDA's, Jehovah Witnesses insist He is an angel so they will do anything to strip Jesus of His deity by making Him an angel.
---Luke on 9/28/14


Terese, the only difference I see is that in the NT he gives us his name. Yet I do see he is in Daniel. Gabriel is mentioned by name only 4 times in scripture, 2 in Daniel, 2 in Luke. Are we to assume by this Gabriel is only active in the affairs of God only 2 times?
Hebrews 1-2 clearly say in the OT God spoke to us through Angels, but today has spoken to us through Jesus Christ. I base my belief on scripture alone. Anything else not held up to scripture..Hebrews 1-2, is speculation not founded on truth. If perhaps God said in Hebrews that Jesus did appear and speak to man disguised as an angel called the "Angel of the Lord" I would believe it. But no scripture states this.
---kathr4453 on 9/28/14


Therefore by these scriptures the Angel of The Lord was an angel, not Jesus or part of the triune Godhead.
---kathr4453 on 9/27/14

My belief that this Angel of the Lord (in NT writings) is not the same as the Angel of the Lord of the verses listed in this blog question is based on the following
-
1. The Angel of the Lord (Luke 1:11) who appeared to Zachariah, the father of John the Baptist, is named as Gabriel in Luke 1:19.

Gabriel is also the angel who appears to Mary.

2. While worship was part of the OT appearings and the ones who experienced the appearing said that they had seen God. This is not so in NT. Not in one instance.
---therese on 9/27/14


Does it say what you think it says? If honest, you know it doesn't. ---Luke on 9/26/14

Yes Luke, 1 Thess 4:16 if taken on its own, one may conclude that the Archangel comes with Jesus and is not Jesus, and it is the archangels voice that wakes the dead, but when we study the whole bible, and compare scripture with scripture, one cannot be so sure.

John 5:25-28 states it is Jesus voice that bring the dead to life.

Jesus voice brought the dead back to life here o earth. Luke 7:14, Mark 5:41, John 11:43.

At least be open enough to agree that some Christians believe the evidence that Jesus may be described as the archangel.

I believe I am honest and study the whole bible, not just one verse .
---therese on 9/27/14


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Samuel, as long as you don't believe Jesus is MICHAEL the ARCHANGEL.

We see the Angel of The Lord warning Mary and Joseph while Mary is pregnant with Jesus and also after Jesus is born. Clearly not any angel, but The Angel of The Lord.

Therefore by these scriptures the Angel of The Lord was an angel, not Jesus or part of the triune Godhead.
---kathr4453 on 9/27/14


//So I accept...that JESUS is part of the Godhead, uncreated, one with God, [and] JESUS the Alpha and Omega.// samuel

then, if that is true, Jesus did not morph to/from Michael, the Archangel.
---aka on 9/27/14


Samuel, firstly, Jesus is not LIKE God, Jesus is God.

The Trinity is never described as being LIKE each other.
kathr4453

Okay. True they are one so that makes them alike does it not.

Angel means messanger and Scholars accept the JESUS is called the Angel of the Lord as one of his many titles. As many did here in another discussion.

So I accept the Trinity and that JESUS is part of the Godhead, uncreated, one with God, (thank you Theresea), As well as that JESUS the Alpha and Omega.

It is a Central doctrine of the Seventh day Adventist church. So then there is no problem that we disagree about two of his hundreds of titles.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 9/27/14


As long as one believes this leader of the Army of the LORD, is JESUS is part of the Godhead, uncreated, one with God, there is no problem.---therese

As long as JESUS remains the Alpha and Omega, there is no problem.

Revelation 1:18

I am he that lives, and was dead, and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen, and have the keys of hell and of death.

Again...who is speaking?
---aka on 9/26/14


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Michael is the General of the Armies. Jesus is Commander-in-Chief.
Jesus is not the messenger: He is the Message. It was the Word of God that proceeded from the mouth of His messengers, the angels.
---micha9344 on 9/26/14


//1 Thess 4.16 says VOICE of the ARCHANGEL and John 5:25, says the VOICE of the SON OF GOD calling the dead to life, as I stated in a previous blog here.//

Theresa,
God did give us brains to think. And everyone's thinking is different, the reason is we are all different. Just because He gave us brains does not mean we all think alike. In the case of (1 Thess. 4:16) Jesus was using the voice of an archangel. It does not say He was an archangel, or that an archangel was with him at the time he used his voice. It will mean that to you, because you want it to, but it isn't. Use your brain, does it say what you think it says? If honest, you know it doesn't.
---Luke on 9/26/14


As long as one believes this leader of the Army of the LORD is part of the Godhead, uncreated, one with God, there is no problem.
---therese on 9/24/14

Maybe I should have added the name of Jesus in that sentence although I did quote SON of God in that blog.

So that it would now read,

As long as one believes this leader of the Army of the LORD, is JESUS is part of the Godhead, uncreated, one with God, there is no problem.
---therese on 9/26/14


therese:

Yes, God gave us brains. One of the things that brains do is to think logically. One part of thinking logically is to realize that if one's reasoning process leads to a contradictory conclusion, then either one's data is faulty, or one's reasoning process is faulty.

An example. The conclusion "Jesus is a created being" contradicts Collossians 1:16
"For by him were all things created...". Jehovah's Witnesses solve this by altering the Bible to say "all [other] things", even though neither grammar nor context suggests the word "other" - it can ONLY be inferred by starting with the foregone conclusion and making the facts fit that conclusion.
---StrongAxe on 9/25/14


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---

For being in charge of all the Angels is a job of JESUS. Also Micheal means one who is like GOD. Do these not apply to JESUS.
---Samuelbb7 on 9/24/14

Samuel, firstly, Jesus is not LIKE God, Jesus is God. To be LIKE something or someone, does not mean identical. My sister and I are alike in many ways, but I am not my sister and my sister is not me.

The Trinity is never described as being LIKE each other.
---kathr4453 on 9/25/14


Angels were God's messengers. Hebrews 1-2 explain.

We also see in Jude where is says even Michael didn't bring a railing accusation against Satan, but said to satan " the LORD rebuke thee". Michael and Jesus Christ are two different entities.

God spoke through a donkey but God is not a donkey. God spoke through Peter on the day of Pentecost, but Peter is not God. God spoke through OT Prophets.

Michael was created, as all angels were, and Jesus was not.

Angels = messengers
Today, beginning 2000 + years ago Jesus Christ spoke to us in person.

When the events in Revelation begin, God's angels will be very active, as will Jesus Christ Himself.
---kathr4453 on 9/25/14


As long as one believes this leader of the Army of the LORD is part of the Godhead, uncreated, one with God, there is no problem. ---therese on 9/24/14

livin' dangerously...very slippery slope.

John 14:6 ... "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Who was speaking in the ellipses?

Acts 13:10 ...will you not stop making crooked the straight paths of the Lord?
---aka on 9/25/14


Samuel, the reason why not is because God never mentions that Jesus is Michael, or that He is an archangel.
---Luke on 9/24/14

Luke, God gave us brains to work out things that may not be definitively stated.

Think of the parables of Jesus and some of the words he spoke.

1 Thess 4.16 says VOICE of the ARCHANGEL and John 5:25, says the VOICE of the SON OF GOD calling the dead to life, as I stated in a previous blog here.

To those who believe Jesus is the Archangel, its a matter of simple mathematics.
If a=b and a=c, then b=c.

As long as one believes this leader of the Army of the LORD is part of the Godhead, uncreated, one with God, there is no problem.

---therese on 9/24/14


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//For being in charge of all the Angels is a job of JESUS. Also Micheal means one who is like GOD. Do these not apply to JESUS.//

Jesus is God, He is in charge of all things even Satan who is an angel and a powerful one at that.
Michael, One who is like God does not mean he is God. It does not apply to anyone but himself. The only way Michael can apply to Jesus is if in your mind you believe he is Jesus. But nowhere does it say that Michael is God or Jesus. When you believe something that is not in the word of God you do what Charles Russell did, become a Skeptic. At Seventeen years old He begin to read the writings of E.G.White, just like you have, so in your mind Scripture has a different meaning altogether.
---Luke on 9/25/14


//You mean you don't believe that Christ has the power to redeem from evil?//

Try reading again
Maybe you could give scripture of anyone OTHER THAN CHRIST redeeming anyone from temporal or any evil
---michael_e on 9/24/14


\\Maybe you could give scripture of anyone other than Christ redeeming anyone from temporal or any evil
---michael_e on 9/23/14\\

You mean you don't believe that Christ has the power to redeem from evil?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/24/14


Luke you say because you do not see it. But I see it and it looks just like all the other titles.

So if I am wrong then it is just a small mistake and nothing major. The same for you no big deal.

For being in charge of all the Angels is a job of JESUS. Also Micheal means one who is like GOD. Do these not apply to JESUS.
---Samuelbb7 on 9/24/14


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//Son of GOD, Head of the Church, the Word, Son of man, Creator, Light of the World, Prince of Peace, Desire of Ages, Lord of Lords, King of Kings, Alpha-Omega and hundreds of more.

Why cannot Arch-angel and Michael just be two more of the hundreds that are listed?//

Samuel, the reason why not is because God never mentions that Jesus is Michael, or that He is an archangel.
He is mentioned as the Angel of the Lord, that is one of His many names, but never Michael or an archangel. That is making things up. He also came as a man before His incarnation when He wrestled with Jacob. This Man was really the Angel in (Hosea 12:4) "The Angel then asked, "What is your name? And he said Jacob."
---Luke on 9/24/14


//He might have meant redemption from temporal evil.//
Maybe you could give scripture of anyone other than Christ redeeming anyone from temporal or any evil
---michael_e on 9/23/14


\\Genesis 48:16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil..
Who but Christ has the power to redeem you?
---michael_e on 9/23/14\\

He might have meant redemption from temporal evil.

A firefighter can redeem/save you from the evil of a burning building.

But, of course, he would function as God's hands, even without knowing it.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/23/14


Genesis 48:16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil..
Who but Christ has the power to redeem you?
---michael_e on 9/23/14


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//If the voice that wakens the dead is the archangel in 1 Thess 4:16, and Jesus, the Son of Man, in John 5:25 and 28, this is fairly good evidence that Jesus equates with the archangel.//

Theresa,
I really don't know what spirit was speaking to you, but it was not the Holy Spirit. The passage nowhere states that an archangel woke up the dead. Jesus woke up the dead. Michael was not mentioned, no archangel was mention shouting. Here is what it says,
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God." 1 Thess. 4:16). He used the voice of an archangel, and the trumpet of God. He never said any archangel was present or that He was an archangel.
---Luke on 9/23/14


Aka: Yes, i agree.
---Adetunji on 9/22/14


Adetunji...I think what the spirit is showing us both is to tell the truth and to not go without compassion for those without.
---aka on 9/22/14


Aka: Yes, we do need to need to each other, thank you.
---Adetunji on 9/22/14


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---Adetunji on 9/20/14

i don't know why the Spirit had to remind me through you, but do you need the same reminder?
---aka on 9/21/14


Thank you Therese.

JESUS is GOD but has many titles. He is the Creator of all things and has existed from all eternity.

But has many titles.

Son of GOD, Head of the Church, the Word, Son of man, Creator, Light of the World, Prince of Peace, Desire of Ages, Lord of Lords, King of Kings, Alpha-Omega and hundreds of more.

Why cannot Arch-angel and Michael just be two more of the hundreds that are listed?

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 9/21/14


---Adetunji on 9/20/14 Please read your Bible with open mind & do away with the lie you've been taught.

But comparing scripture with scripture what does one do with, 1 Thess 4.16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout and the VOICE of the ARCHANGEL and with the trumpet of God and the dead in Christ shall rise first), and John 5:25, (The hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear the VOICE of the SON OF GOD and those who hear will live)

One says its the voice of the archangel that raises the dead, the other says it is Jesus (the Son of God, the Son of man) who raises the dead.

Two different voices, or the same?
---therese on 9/20/14


Therese: The Lord Jesus Christ created all things, humans, angels & arch-angels inclusive. The Lord Jesus Christ is God, far greater than any created thing (in fact, The Greatest, The Everlasting Father ) . Please read your Bible with open mind & do away with the lie you've been taught.
---Adetunji on 9/20/14


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Thanks Samuelb. The holy spirit reminded me of those verses while I was praying and studying Gods word this morning.

If the voice that wakens the dead is the archangel in 1 Thess 4:16, and Jesus, the Son of Man, in John 5:25 and 28, this is fairly good evidence that Jesus equates with the archangel.

Many have agreed that the Angel of the Lord is God in some form and that this angel is the pre-incarnate Jesus.

Angel of the Lord, Michael the Archangel, names for the pre-incarnate, uncreated Jesus, equal part of the Godhead.

So for those who scoff at bloggers who hold the belief that Michael is Jesus, just examine the evidence. There is good reason for believing this is true.
---therese on 9/19/14


//Archangel means head of angels. The True head of all the Angels is JESUS. //

Jesus is the true head of everything...including the archangel michael(head of all angels)

Again, read Hebrews 1:1-14 (made mistake in last post)
---aka on 9/19/14


//Can only be one chief angel one would think.// therese

maybe, one who does not have experience or pay attention.

the president is the Commander in Chief. Under him is the Joint Chiefs of Staff...my brother retired a Chief Petty Officer who is in charge of many Chief Petty Officers First Class and he is under a Senior Chief Petty Officer. Each Indian village of the same tribe has a chief.

//The Bible clearly in Daniel 10:13 describes Michael as "one of the chief princes".// Adetunji

very good point...

not only that, scripture says the angel came to help. (which is different than to lead.)

just like there are chiefs that may compare to the leader...what angel compares?. Hebrews 1-13.
---aka on 9/19/14


Archangel means head of angels. The True head of all the Angels is JESUS.

Good point theresa

John 5:25
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 5:28
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Since John under the guidance of GOD says it will be the voice of Jesus. I must accept that is the voice that wakes the dead. After all only GOD can resurrect the dead.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 9/19/14


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Therese: // Jude 9 identifies Michael as the Archangel. (chief angel)Can only be one chief angel one would think.//
The Bible clearly in Daniel 10:13 describes Michael as "one of the chief princes".
From that verse, it is obvious that we have more than 1 arch-angels.
From Rev.12:7-9, you can find out that Lucifer is also an arch-angel though now estranged & fallen.
All angels (arch or not) are servants of God/Jesus empowered by Him to perform their roles and are not equal to Him.
---Adetunji on 9/19/14


The indication we have from the H.Bible is that a large company of angels will accompany Him. The voice of the arch-angel is the voice of one of His servants
---Adetunji on 9/17/14

Jude 9 identifies Michael as the Archangel. (chief angel)Can only be one chief angel one would think. So it must be His voice, the voice of the Archangel described in 1 Thessalonians 4:16.
---therese on 9/19/14


Therese: // When Jesus returns it is with the voice of the archangel, quite possibly His own voice//

The indication we have from the H.Bible is that a large company of angels will accompany Him. The voice of the arch-angel is the voice of one of His servants
---Adetunji on 9/17/14


Zachariah 3 1-2 also speaks of the Angel of the LORD, verse two indicating that this Angel is the LORD. The LORD here says to Satan, The LORD rebuke you, Satan. This could only be said if more than one being make up the Godhead.

Is it just possible that the Archangel Michael of Jude 9 is also this same Being? The one we know as Jesus.

When Jesus returns it is with the voice of the archangel, quite possibly His own voice that raises the dead.

The term angel does not have to mean created being as this discussion on Angel of the LORD shows. Some have here described the Angel of the Lord as the Theophanic Angel, uncreated, part of the Godhead.
---therese on 9/16/14


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Cluny, Genesis 18. Lets look at the whole picture here. Abraham sees 3 men approaching his tent. Out of respect he bows down (not worships) before them. He uses the word my Lord verse 3 (not LORD )

It appears he doesnt know for sure who they are. If Hebrews 13:2 alludes to this occasion, as many christians believe, Abraham thought they were strangers.

When Sarah is told she will have a child, and laughs, it is the LORD who speaks. When they leave (verse 22) the LORD remains and talks to Abraham. Chapter 19:1 says that 2 angels go to Sodom and Gomorrah.

If we think on this, surely it is a possibility that the 3 strangers are 2 angels and the LORD.
---therese on 9/14/14


\\BUT this Commander of the Army of the Lord appearing to Joshua must be God in some form as worship is appropriate.
---therese on 9/13/14\\

In Genesis 19, Abraham fell down and worshipped the three angels.

They never objected, either.

Were they God in some form?

Glory to Jesus Christ1!
---Cluny on 9/14/14


Yes Cluny, I must agree just because the same words are spoken, it does not mean the same person spoke them.

BUT this Commander of the Army of the Lord appearing to Joshua must be God in some form as worship is appropriate.
---therese on 9/13/14


\\Appears to be the same person.\\

Non sequituur.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/13/14


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So Cluny if this is Michael the Archangel, is it okay to worship him? (Joshua 5:14) Joshua did, and was not told NOT TO.

Interesting too, the words of this entity to Joshua are the same as the words to Moses from the bush by the Angel of the LORD, Take your sandal off your foot, for the place where you stand is holy ground. Appears to be the same person. God also appears to Abraham as a Man, together with 2 angels also described as men. (3 men, Genesis 18:2)
---therese on 9/13/14


\\Could it also be said that the Man with the drawn sword who appeared to Joshua (Joshua 5:13-15 ) is also this same person?
---therese on 9/13/14
\\

Maybe. I believe it's more likely the Archangel Michael, who is NOT the Pre-incarnate Logos.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/13/14


Yes I believe if all would read the texts given where the Angel of the LORD is mentioned, the conclusion is clear, this is God in some form.

Could it also be said that the Man with the drawn sword who appeared to Joshua (Joshua 5:13-15 ) is also this same person?
---therese on 9/13/14


Theophany? Yes, I wholeheartedly agree Cluny!
---Leon on 9/12/14


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I will repeat what I said.

Sometimes an angel is just a created angel.

Sometimes it's really a Theophany.

Sometimes the Biblical data make it clear which it is, and sometimes they are ambiguous.

Now do you understand, Leon?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/12/14


\\Therese: Plain & simple, the Angel of the LORD is none other than the preincarnate Jesus Christ (GOD: Second Person of the Holy Trinity).\\

Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

**since jesus was an angel and all angels were created, then how can jesus be God since God created everything?**

...**I** never said that Jesus was an angel.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/11/14


Cluny: Regardless of what you, I or anyone else say, the Bible says ANGEL OF THE LORD, meaning that Jesus appeared as an angel. Is that so unlikely or even impossible since He later appeared as a man? God can take on whatever appearance He wants, e.g., a dove.

God isn't the author of "debate filled" confusion...
---Leon on 9/12/14


\\(Jdg 13:22) And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God [Elohim].

I believe based on scripture that it was THE theophonic angel which is different from a created angel.\\

It's possibly a Theophany. (I lean to that reading myself.)

And then it could have been just a created angel.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/12/14


//I don't know about anyone else here, but **I** never said that Jesus was an angel.//

read the whole post. please.

i said that is the line that is given by some of those who use angel (mal-awk') to mean only one thing.

(Jdg 13:22) And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God [Elohim].

I believe based on scripture that it was THE theophonic angel which is different from a created angel.

The father, jesus, and the Holy spirit make up one Godhead (Kingdom, Divinity...Elohim).
---aka on 9/11/14


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Sorry, last bible text in question should have been Judges 13:21-22 not 22:21-22
---therese on 9/11/14


\\Therese: Plain & simple, the Angel of the LORD is none other than the preincarnate Jesus Christ (GOD: Second Person of the Holy Trinity).\\

Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

**since jesus was an angel and all angels were created, then how can jesus be God since God created everything?**

I don't know about anyone else here, but **I** never said that Jesus was an angel.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/11/14


What is wrong with you? Jesus was never nor is He not ever going to be an angel. That is so against the Word of God. God help you
---shira4368 on 9/11/14


and the line is... since jesus was an angel and all angels were created, then how can jesus be God since God created everything?

it is part of the trinity trap.

The father, jesus, and the Holy spirit make up one Godhead (Kingdom, Divinity).


mal-awk'

- dispatch (as a deputy)
- a messenger
- an angel
- a theophanic angel

take your pick to push your belief.

(Jdg 13:22) And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God [Elohim].

I believe based on scripture that it was THE theophonic angel which is different from a created angel.
---aka on 9/11/14


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You are correct Cluny.
---Samuelbb7 on 9/11/14


Therese: Plain & simple, the Angel of the LORD is none other than the preincarnate Jesus Christ (GOD: Second Person of the Holy Trinity).
---Leon on 9/11/14


Sometimes an angel is just an angel. (No joke intended.)

Sometimes in the OT what is called an angel is really the pre-Incarnate Logos. The Fourth Man in the Fire in Daniel 3 is one example.

For some of what you mentioned, opinion is divided. It's not an issue that affects salvation.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/10/14


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