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Forgive Without Asking

Does God require that we forgive others without their asking us, but he will not forgive us unless we ask? If so, that makes us more compassionate than God?

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 ---Geraldine on 9/12/14
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Israel and the boC are not the same
---michael_e on 9/23/14

Only find what is sought, only scratch what itches.
Hos 2:16.... thou shalt call me Ishi, and shalt call me no more Baali.
Hos 2:19 I will betroth thee unto me for ever, yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness,.....Body.
Hos 2:23 .... I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy, I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people, they shall say, Thou art my God.
Rom_7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ, that ye should be married to another, .....
Eph_5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
---Trav on 9/24/14


//Eph 2 is speaking to divorced Israel...//
??
Eph 2 Written by Paul, the apostle to the gentiles.
Israel and the boC are not the same
Israel: preached the gospel of the Kingdom, had earthly promises, hopes and blessings. Christ is king, physical, national salvation, 12 apostles, under law, water baptism a must, Christ returns to earth.
Body of Christ: Gospel of the grace of God, Heavenly promises, hopes and blessings, Christ is Head, Spiritual, Individual Salvation, 1 Apostle Under Grace, Spirit baptism, Christ's meeting in the air
---michael_e on 9/23/14


As I did also...
Eph 2: explains where we stood and will stand in relationship with Israel
---michael_e on 9/23/14

Eph 2 is speaking to divorced Israel...the Nth House by reference to the prophets. The North house of 10 being divorced, lost her married name...was sent "far off", "scattered". Strangers by divorce to GOD...the covenants,the blessings,promises.
Redeemed...for remarriage (ten virgins) by the death/sacrifice of Christ. Both houses.
Gentile is a "latin" word. Better utilized and understood as "nations" or "ethnos" and can easily be divorced (scattered)Israel and in most NT usage is.
---Trav on 9/23/14


//Understand your concept but, fear going against all GOD's prophets myself. Each man chooses,....after being aware. I did.//
As I did also, after being aware that God's prophets were speaking to Israel.
Joel speaking to Israel, John to sit on one of the twelve thrones of Israel.
Eph 2: explains where we stood and will stand in relationship with Israel
---michael_e on 9/23/14


//Scripture differs in that it does//
Rev 21 refers to the twelve tribes of Israel not the church, the body of Christ.
---michael_e on 9/22/14

Understand your concept but, fear going against all GOD's prophets myself. Each man chooses,....after being aware. I did.
Joe_2:16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.
Rev 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
(with the remainder of 21 describing....)
---Trav on 9/23/14




One advantage of forgiving before we are asked is that, it helps us not to seek revenge by ourselves.
If we revenge on our own, we can overdo it and it becomes sin (against us) in the sight of God.
Whether we ask God to forgive us or not, HE cannot be wrong in measuring the right punishment that is deserved.
---Adetunji on 9/23/14


Eph 2:12 12 ....
Who is speaking, to whom is he speaking, what is the context of his speech?
---michael_e on 9/19/14

Ask a prophet these questions and you will always get the correct answer. Ask logic/men and get confused.

Prophet to whom: Hos_3:4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king,.....
Eze_11:16 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD, Although I have cast them far off....
Eze_20:34 I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, ....
Mic_4:7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast.... far off ....a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.
---Trav on 9/23/14


Trav, What do they say about the twelve tribes? That their name were written on the wall.

The twelve Apostles name were also written on the wall. And we know they were saved.
---Luke on 9/23/14

You wrestle with GOD's clear witnesses, what he has done and will do.
He married Israel...all Twelve.
He divorced/put away 10.
He promised to forgive/cleanse/redeem/remarry-New-covenant....all 12.

Your jealous/agnst is with him.... choosing. He is GOD...he can do what he wants, with whoever, always for a reason.

Psa_130:8 he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities.
Psa_86:5 For thou, Lord, art good, and ready to forgive, and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon thee.
---Trav on 9/23/14


//Rev_21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
Rev_21:14 the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.//

Trav, What do they say about the twelve tribes? That their name were written on the wall. It does not say that the twelve tribes of people are saved. Or that they belong to the Church. "Names were written on the wall" How does that proof that the twelve tribes are saved? Or that they belong to the Church? You are making things up.
The twelve Apostles name were also written on the wall. And we know they were saved.
---Luke on 9/23/14


Nana, Paul gave us Romans 7 which applies to us today after the cross.

Paul did not write Hebrews. However I do like those verses.

Fruit..ok some 30 fold some 70 fold some 100 fold, but never see on the Good ground "0". Also we are not saved by our fruit, we are saved by Jesus death and resurrection. The fruit God wants TODAY are only produced by those who have crucified the flesh. Galatians 5 will explain. Nana I live after the cross.

Yes bitterness like Esau hinders the fruit of the Spirit, as anger and hate will do. So we do need to keep that in check, and forgive as Christ forgave. And if we feel we've been cheated and robbed, just give it to The Lord.
---kathr4453 on 9/22/14




Hebrews12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

Firstly salvation is not a birthright of anyone. So Esau did not sell his salvation. Nor was it stolen from him or tricked away from him.

One must go back to Genesis to really understand these verses. It has nothing to do with losing salvation.
---kathr453 on 9/22/14


"No one can bear fruit apart from the Indwelling Holy Spirit."

Matthew 3:8_10, John was the one addressing not only those who answered the call with a "good and honest heart" but also many "Pharisees and Sadducees". To them he said, "Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance". In Luke 3:10 and 3:12, those of nobler hearts asked , "What shall we do then." He showed them. Are you trying to make John out to be a simpleton?

Your premise, "No one can...", is empty.
Was Paul speaking to an 'Indwelled Holy Spirit' when he said, "And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way, but let it rather be healed."?
---Nana on 9/22/14


Nana, the verse you posted in Matthew Jesus spoke to Jews who REJECTED HIM. No one here who professes to believe in Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, the Messiah will need those words spoken to them.

It just doesn't apply to those who believe Jesus is GOD. We don't put our faith in being Abraham's seed, but the ONE seed who is CHRIST.
---kathr4453 on 9/22/14


//Scripture differs in that it does//
Rev 21 refers to the twelve tribes of Israel not the church, the body of Christ.
Israel and the Church are the two entities through which Gods will is performed. Israel gives purpose to religion being the only religion ever ordained by God,consisting of mainly Jews.
The Church is that unique one body church which is called the body of Christ, no difference in Jew and gentile.
The Church is one body not twelve tribes
---michael_e on 9/22/14


Matthew 3:8_10 "Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire."

Luke 3:10 "And the people asked him, saying, What shall we do then?"
Luke 3:12 "Then came also publicans to be baptized, and said unto him, Master, what shall we do?"

They were not told to go to the fruit market.
---Nana on 9/22/14


Romans 7: 4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ, that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held, that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.


it's all explained right here. It's explained simple enough...so what is the problem? I just don't get it?
---kathr4453 on 9/22/14


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Luke 8:15 "But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience///////.


Nana, again the Good ground is Christ in you. No one can bear fruit apart from the Indwelling Holy Spirit. No law keeping can bear fruit. It's the fruit of the spirit, not the fruit of the flesh. The LAW brings death, not fruit!
---kathr4453 on 9/22/14


Luke 8:15 "But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience."
John 3:20_21 "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."

Surprise to you, men of "honest and good heart" PRIOR to hearing the word. To what part of man's total inability (what you are peddling here) did John appeal to when he said, "Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." ?
---Nana on 9/22/14


1 Thesalonians 4:2_4 "For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour,"

---Nana on 9/21/14


Absolutely Luke, unbelievers do not possess his vessel in sanctification and honour..why because only those saved are sanctified IN CHRIST to begin with. WE are the temple of the Holy Spirit and it's our temple, that is indwelt by the Living God.
---kathr4453 on 9/22/14


The Church doesn't have 12 tribes.
---michael_e on 9/18/14

???
Scripture differs in that it does. GOD never fails. Christ did not fail in his mission. Nor did the Apostles when sent.
Rev_21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
Rev_21:14 the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
---Trav on 9/22/14


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//Nana, only those who DO the will of my Father. Again supports the verse you gave in Thesselonians.//

Kathr,
You are correct, every passage Nana put down, are for those who believe by faith in Christ. And those only do the will of the Father. And the reason Nana puts the passages down, is because he believes the people who Paul was speaking to were lost. He has no clue who the writers are speaking to, so he puts down any passages. I know of no Epistle where Paul wrote to a group of lost people, he wrote to believers in the Church. He was still teaching them, and some times warning them. The only righteousness that counts is the imputed righteousness we receive from Christ.
---Luke on 9/22/14


Nana, only those who DO the will of my Father. Again supports the verse you gave in Thesselonians.

Jesus didn't say....IF you do the will of my Father THEN....

The ONLY those who do are those who are saved to be able to do them through Jesus Christ....just as Hebrews 13:20-21 state.
---kathr4453 on 9/21/14


Geraldine: You assume 'but he will not forgive us unless we ask?'

That is not correct, actually.

Indeed, God will not forgive if we consciously make a decision not to repent. HOWEVER, there are sins we have done that we never realised were sins - there God still forgives.

So in fact, we are asked to act in the same way as God does
---Peter on 9/21/14


Romans 1:19 "Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them, for God hath shewed it unto them."

Paul declared "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters,..."

And thereafter, "flee fornication", "glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's". That is 'this' and 'that' which we must DO.

1 Thesalonians 4:2_4 "For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour,"
---Nana on 9/21/14


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And before clunky jumps in with my auto fill of buy and not by, let me correct the last post. We know how clunky has nothing else to do in life but correct and proof read.
---kathr4453 on 9/21/14


The Old Covenant could never do this, based on conditions of, "if you will! then I will". The everlasting Covenent is based solely on God saying "I WILL". It can't be said any clearer then the following verses. So the problem must be the blindness of the one reading.


Hebrews 13:20-21

20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
---kathr453 on 9/21/14


Samuel, I believe the correct NT concept is not that we live FOR Jesus, but that we die to self so He can live THROUGH US. ...the life that I NOW live in the flesh, I live buy the faith of Christ.

Many lost believe they live FOR Jesus, never doing HIS will but their own concept of what they believe is God's will. Haven't WE this and haven't WE that, just didn't fly with Jesus. Romans 12:1-2 also say only those who have surrendered their lives really KNOW the will of God anyway. God's will goes beyond keeping the 10 commandments.
---kathr4453 on 9/21/14


And every work they do is for the glory of God because the Spirit moves them to do the will of the Father. Luke

This is true. But what is also true that many who say they follow JESUS live in unconfessed unforsaken sin. They do not believe their actions mean anything.

But those who truly follow JESUS will live, as you correctly point out, for Him.

Matthew 25 and First John speaks of those who say they follow JESUS but do not.


Revelation 22:14

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
---Samuelbb7 on 9/21/14


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//Christ said, "... but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."//

Nana, Yes, those who do the will of the Father are already saved. Those you mentioned from the Old Testament refuse to do the will of the Father.
No one who is lost has the righteousness of Christ. Only those who believe by faith in Christ receive the righteousness of Christ. It is imputed to them. And every work they do is for the glory of God because the Spirit moves them to do the will of the Father. Why can you not understand? Because the heart is already hardened.
---Luke on 9/21/14


"Your prayers and alms have gone up as a memorial before God."

Does this sound like Cornelius was self-righteous to you?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/20/14


Nana, the ONLY righteousness God accepts is the righteousness of Christ . Any other righteousness is self righteousness. Paul said of himself in Philippians 3 he was BLAMELESS, concerning keeping the law, ...meaning self righteousness too,. But look what he found out.....it wasn't enough. He counts all that DUNG compared to the righteousness of Christ.

Why is it so hard to see this truth. It's not some hidden truth between the lines. Nana, if our own righteousness could save, Christ died in vain. Galatians 2:20-21.

Cornelius was a religious devout man, but not saved. He received salvation when Peter preached the Gospel to him. It's all there in acts 10 and 11.
---kathr4453 on 9/20/14


"Nana, Cornelius certainly was self righteous..."

No, he was not, quite the contrary.
---Nana on 9/20/14


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Nana, Cornelius certainly was self righteous, but was not saved until Peter shared the Gospel of salvation with him, Cornelius receiving the Holy Spirit just like the Jews had, showing God was no respect or of persons concerning salvation was for all, Jew and Gentile.

Peter didn't go there just to report back there was such a thing as a self righteous Gentile.
---kathr4453 on 9/20/14


."

Christ said, "... but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."
Micah 6:8 "He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good, and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?"

Ephesians 2:14 "For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us,..."

Carry on with Luke and his exclusive and separatist doctrine, over and out.
---Nana on 9/20/14


Acts 10:34_35 "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."
The inmediate example of 'worked righteousness' which Peter was refering to was that of Cornelius, Acts 10:2 "A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway."
---Nana on 9/20/14


Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

There is the Kingdom that will be restored to Israel bringing them back to the Land where Jesus will rule as KING , spoken in Matthew 24-25 and Zechariah 12-13,
AND there is the one in Colossians 1:13, where we, at this very moment as born Again believers live right this minute, explained in Colossians 3:1-4 We are seated with Christ in heavenly places in Christ, NOW. And this does not contradict the promises given to Abraham. Paul clearly teaches the heavenly CHURCH apart from the promises to the Nation Israel, in Romans, Colossians, Ephesians, Galatians, Philippians....and still wrote Romans 9-11.
---kathr4453 on 9/20/14


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Nana, if you REREAD Romans 6, the "he" that doeth righteous is righteous because it's the NEW CREATURE doing the righteousness. 1John also says, you know you have PASSED FROM DEATH TO LIFE WHEN. So here again John understands what Paul understands explained in Romans 6 as well.

Unless your righteousness EXCEEDS THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE SCRIBES AND PHARISEES.

Only those IN Christ can exceed theirs.
---kathr453 on 9/20/14


Kathr,
You are correct, our righteous is like filthy rags. It is the imputed righteousness that believers get from Christ.
The apostle Paul writes, But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe (Romans 3:2122). Through our faith in Christ, the righteousness of God is given to us. This is called imputed righteousness.
---Luke on 9/20/14


"We are talking TWO entirely different KINGDOMS here."
---kathr4453 on 9/19/14
Only you are talking two kingdoms, not me. I only see one kingdom, irregardless whether you may eat Gefilte fish and me relish my pork chops.
Romans 11:23 "And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief,..."
We are partakers of one olive tree.
"Nana, I see nowhere where one BECOMES Righteous by doing this for that or following this rule or that."
I already brought to mind 1 Corinthians 6:9_
1 John 3:7 "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous."
Accordingly, I disagree with your take of "kingdoms" and of 'righteousness".
---Nana on 9/19/14


Nana, I see nowhere where one BECOMES Righteous by doing this for that or following this rule or that. OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS is the righteousness of Christ, not our own.

The reason I don't have to cut off anything is according to Romans 6-8 ..I died to sin when I died with Christ. The New Creature who has be created in righteousness and holiness, is not evil. Not one part of their being. THAT is why those still in the flesh/sin cannot enter the Kingdom of God. We are talking TWO entirely different KINGDOMS here.
---kathr4453 on 9/19/14


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Many today do pray for the Kingdom to come, that is the return of Jesus Christ to rule and Reign in the Kingdom first promised to Israel, and will be again Acts 1:6-7.

This was spoken to Jews before the cross. The Jews at that time thought Jesus came to restore the Kingdom and overthrow Roman rule then and there. So did Judas who turned on Jesus when it did not happen right THEN.

This is yet future and will be fulfilled at the time of the Fathers choosing as Acts 1:6-7 clearly state.

Just as John's water baptism does not save, and does not apply to the church, neither does this prayer.
---kathr4453 on 9/19/14


"I do NOT have to cut off my hand or poke out an eye to enter into the Kingdom."
kathr453 on 9/19/14

Paul said, Hebrews 12:13 "And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way, but let it rather be healed."

Is not that the same thing Christ was saying in Matthew 5:29_30? I believe it is so and as Paul also says, 1 Corinthians 6:9 "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,..."
---Nana on 9/19/14


//He Himself said that we needed to ask these things//
//When the Bible writer says, "we" or "us" it is speaking to believers//
Jesus, as is recorded spoke, to two gentiles in his earthly ministry.(Matt 10:5,6, 15:24 John 4:22 Luke 24:47, Acts 1:6, 2:14.22,36)
Where were the gentiles?
Eph 2:12 12 "That at that time ye were without Christ..."
Who is speaking, to whom is he speaking, what is the context of his speech?
why would you think Jesus and his 12 were speaking to you?
Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation,...
Christ gave us an apostle to follow. 1 Cor 11:1
---michael_e on 9/19/14


\\//What part of this do you not understand?//
The part where you think you are part of the nation of Israel.\\

Where are the 12 tribes of Israel mentioned in the words "forgive us our trespasses?

Or is this some meaning of them with which I'm unfamiliar?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/19/14


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Kathr "Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven" I don't read the words the way you seem to read them. I believe that they are saying that we should do God's will whilst on earth just as, in Heaven, God's will is being done"
---Rita_H on 9/19/14


Because of the misunderstanding of this prayer, we have what is called Dominion, reconstruction replacement theology that we are to clean up the world FOR Jesus Christ. If those reading Matthew do not KNOW this was written to Jews FOR a time yet future, and NOT the doctrine of GRACE plus nothing, then you will never get it.

I do NOT have to cut off my hand or poke out an eye to enter into the Kingdom. I do however have to believe in the Finished works of Christ, and I enter through the veil, that is to say His Flesh. I COME THROUGH THE CROSS!
---kathr453 on 9/19/14


Take a look at the whole of the Lords prayer, such as , Thy Kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Things TODAY are not on earth as it is in heaven. The Kingdom that is to come on earth as is in Heaven is the Earthly Kingdom reign, where all will be under Kingdom LAW. Justice will be swift and quick and the Kingdom will be ruled with a rod of Iron. #2 Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil ...again lets look at this part. Now was Pater and Paul delivered from evil when murdered for the sake of the Gospel...obviously NOT. However during the Kingdom Reign this prayer would fit the time then.
---kathr4453 on 9/19/14


Does God require us to forgive people who do not ask to be forgiven?

Jesus on the cross prayed forgiveness to those people who were still busy with hating and torturing and murdering Him > Luke 23:34-43 > He did that because He loved and cared for those people. This needs to be the reason we pray forgiveness to people . . . not only because we want our own selves to be forgiven!! but because we deeply love the people we are forgiving and care about them as much as we care about ourselves . . . loving them as ourselves, then, like Jesus desires.

So, Jesus desires this. This is our main reason, because we so love You, Jesus.
---com7fy8 on 9/19/14


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The Bible is clear that God pardons sin by His grace based on Christs work on the cross alone, not on man's actions. Our right standing before Him is established on one thing,the finished work of Christ (John 3:16, 1 John 2:2, 1 John 4:10).

The penalty for the sin that is rightly ours is paid by Christ, and we obtain it by grace through faith, not by any righteous deeds of our own (Ephesians 2:8-9). No one will be able to stand before God demanding that his sins be forgotten simply because he has forgiven others. Jesus in this verse in Matthew is not referring to Gods initial act of forgiveness (reconciliation) that we experienced when we first believed the Gospel.
---kathr4453 on 9/19/14


"\We don't need to ask God to forgive us,\\

When asked to be taught to pray, the Savior said, among other things, to pray, "forgive us our trespasses."

What part of this do you not understand?

Glory to Jesus Christ!"
---Cluny on 9/18/14

ditto
---Nana on 9/19/14


Michael, when the disciples asked Jesus to teach them to pray He did just that. Part of what He taught them was "...and forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against US...and lead us not into temptation" etc.

He Himself said that we needed to ask these things and those words show that our own forgiveness is dependent on whether we forgive others.

Christ's teaching of we should pray shows all that quite clearly.

Yes His work is 'complete' but we need to keep our list of sins short as reminders to ourselves of how weak we are, so we should repent daily and sincerely.
---Rita_H on 9/19/14


Michael e,
When the Bible writer says, "we" or "us" it is speaking to believers. And "we" are told,
"If "we" say that "we" have no sin, "we" deceive ourselves and the truth is not in "us." If "we" confess "our" sins, He is faithful and just to forgive "us" "our" sins and to cleanse "us" from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:8,9). This is after "we" have been saved, because if "we" say "we" have no sin, the truth is not in "us."
"We" have an Advocate (Jesus Christ) who speaks for "us" when we pray to the Father. (1 John 2:1,2).
---Luke on 9/19/14


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//What part of this do you not understand?//
The part where you think you are part of the nation of Israel.
The Church doesn't have 12 tribes.
We need not ask him to forgive, but must trust that his offer is valid through the blood of Jesus. This is the gospel that saves. This is the ministry of reconciliation. God is reconciled to you, be ye reconciled to God!
2 Cor 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them, and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
---michael_e on 9/18/14


\\We don't need to ask God to forgive us,\\

When asked to be taught to pray, the Savior said, among other things, to pray, "forgive us our trespasses."

What part of this do you not understand?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/18/14


We don't need to ask God to forgive us, he already has. The work is complete. Our conversation to God should be belief and gratitude that he has forgiven us through Christs blood.
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins
Praying for God to do something he has already done shows a lack of faith in his finished work. You wouldn't ask for lunch if the plate is sitting in front of you. Our response should be thank you. The same way, we thank God for his forgiveness handed to us on the platter of grace.
God has forgiven those who trust the gospel of Christ.
Eph.4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christs sake hath forgiven you.
---michael_e on 9/18/14


After 2,000 years, it is time that the modern church recognize what is old and what is new. JESUS is the NEW way of worship. The Jewish way of worship was for JEHOVAH ONLY and was very repressive. Jewish culture/lifestyle attitudes focused on JUDGEMENT, WRATH, PUNISHMENT (not correction) of even the smallest discrepancy.

Mat 13:52 what is new and what is old."

Rom 7:6 not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit.

2Co 5:17 the old has passed away

Lev 26:10
and you shall clear out the old to make way for the new

We must make a CLEAR DISTINCTION and also realize that we weren't alive 2,000 years ago (much of what is in scripture was meant for the JEWS and is relevant only to them).
---faithforfaith on 9/18/14


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faithforfaith, God tells us that He will forgive us our sins against Him and we are to forgive those who have sinned against Us.

Our being forgivEN is dependent on our being forgivING.

We are to seek no revenge but if God chooses to seek justice for us He will do so.
---Rita_H on 9/17/14


Faithforhim,
What you are advising others is to ignore the commandments of Christ. He tells us to forgive others who sins against us. And you say not to do that.
"For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses" (Matt. 6:14,15).
We do not forgive their sins against God, but we are commanded to forgive those who trespass against us.
---Luke on 9/17/14


Faithforfaith. To say that forgiveness is a perversion of justice is a comment confusing to me and maybe many. Justice was paid at the cross, so no perversion there at all. And now those IN Christ who have been forgiven as they have been forgiven, forgive others as Christ forgave us.

Forgiveness is also an act of the will, not the emotions.

I believe there are also a few parables concerning this as well. Isn't there a parable of someone being forgiven a debt, and then turns around and holds another in debt , and the the consequences of the one who was forgiven and then hardens his heart was worse than before.
---kathr4453 on 9/17/14


Forgiveness is actually a perversion of justice (God tells us "Do not pervert justice"). GOD is the only forgiver of the soul because JESUS earned our purification/forgiveness (we should not assume to have this authority, we are not DIVINE).

LET GOD BE JUDGE and jury. God is the AVENGER, He will repay. Let God be the ONLY ONE of wrath.
---faithforfaith on 9/16/14


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Dear Josef,
I really loved your answer to the question, thank you so much for your loving answer brother, Agape
---Luke on 9/16/14


//If so, that makes us more compassionate than God?//

//he will not forgive us unless we ask?//

God forgave us 2,000 years ago on a cross. Confessing our sins to God for forgiveness is just our way of practicing humility before God to free ourselves from the power of Satan's lies and our guilt.

Forgive, forget, wisdom:
Forgiveness - frees us from someones elses wrong
Forgetting - restores a relationship between the two parties
Wisdom - allows the relationship to move forward without falling into that stumbling block.
---Scott1 on 9/15/14


Thank you Press on, and you are of course quite welcome Geraldine. All praise is due The Father.
---josef on 9/14/14


"There is no requirement for a continued association, if you should choose not to, apart from a spouse." (Joseph on 9.14.14.)

There will be many occasions when 'association' with the spouse is no longer appropriate also. Examples would be a violent spouse or an adulterous spouse. Individuals must be able to secure their own (and children's) safety and should not have to live in a situation where they are 'sharing' their spouse 'with another person' or maybe several others.

'People' will always judge these situations (often incorrectly because they see only part of the picture) but God knows ALL and He is the only one to judge.
---Rita_H on 9/15/14


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Excellent, Josef!
---Press_On on 9/14/14


josef, thank you for the wonderful explanation of living in peace, not letting hurt control your life.
---Geraldine on 9/14/14


Geraldine, to expound, please understand, forgiveness is not a work. To forgive is simply to endure a wrong without seeking revenge or retribution, period. Nothing more is required of you. There is no requirement for a continued association, if you should choose not to, apart from a spouse. Forgiveness is to free you, from anger, frustration, ill-will or animosity. The hurt may remain, but use it as a reminder not to allow that hurt to control you, your words or your actions. Which allows Father's guidance without hinderance as you enter into His rest. You will know that you have entered into His rest when you have ceased from you own vain efforts to do, or not to do, and just be who the Father has created you to be in Christ Jesus. Mat 11:28
---josef on 9/14/14


Cluny, thanks for the advice to relax in God's love. "A spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down!"
---Geraldine on 9/13/14


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BTW, I forgot to mention that scrupulousity is the spiritual manifestation of OCD.

Relax in God's love for you, dear soul.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/13/14


Sis.Rita, love see you again best I find let it go, I can relate with you.Had yrs.ago lots of anger, and I saw like you say that person is walking around enjoy life like at the beach, while you are mad and hurting inside.Best give it over to God. I find they go on like it no tomorrow God will hear your cries, but he admonish us to forgive, yes! The dust will settle.
I have hard time with these people on drugs stealing but I rejoice becuz Jesus knows my heart. It will change
I pray they get deliverance/ salvation.I keep my forgiveness scriptures close always!
Love ofvJesus!
---Elena_9555 on 9/13/14


\\Cluny, if I have OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder) as you say, can/will you forgive me for having it?
---Geraldine on 9/13/14\\

OCD is nothing for me to forgive.

It is you yourself who fall into OC ways of thinking. I'm simply reminding you not to let IT control YOU.

Something about forgiveness: It's like peeling an onion. You peel and peel and cry and cry....and then there's a new layer.

Sometimes, all you can do is start with the DESIRE to forgive....

Glory to Jesus Christ!!
---Cluny on 9/13/14


I believe that WE are to forgive and 'then' HE forgives us as we forgive others. Three years ago I felt very unforgiving to a certain person who had caused me much harm, distress, upheaval etc. It was a huge, life-changing issue and I am still in the midst of it but my hate and anger were tearing me apart whilst he just sailed through life as if nothing had changed.

I had to forgive and then I had God's peace. God is dealing with him as only God can - it is not for me to interfere with that.

God has given me a new Christian family and I have NEVER felt so content in my 70 years as I do now.
---Rita_H on 9/13/14


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Does God require that we forgive others without their asking us? Yes, "bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other, as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive." Col 3:13
Therefore "Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you." Eph 4:32
"For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you," Mat 6:14
"but he will not forgive us unless we ask?" Geraldine, neither the woman in Luk 7:48 or the man in Luk 5:20 asked His forgiveness, Yet His forgiveness was freely offer to them just as it is offered to us [In Christ].
---josef on 9/13/14


Cluny, if I have OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder) as you say, can/will you forgive me for having it?
---Geraldine on 9/13/14


What does the Lord's Prayer say?

"Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us."

God requires nothing of us that is beyond our strength.

Geraldine, quit being so OCD.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/12/14


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