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Only Begotten Son

What is the meaning of "only begotten" Son?

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 ---1stcliff on 9/13/14
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"Not in my family...She will not come over on holidays, birthdays..." Mark_Eaton

So Mark, Let's say that someone from a Jewish background with all of their traditions and celebrations becomes a "Christian"...let's say Baptist.

Now every year when Yom Kippur, Chanukkah, etc., role around and those are the days that the "Christian" family member is invited to visit his Jewish family...do they go? If they choose not to go on those days would you say that the Baptists are ripping families apart?

Whether or not you agree with JWs refusal to participate in ALL God dishonoring celebrations, from any religion, it has nothing to do with family. JWs love family...regardless of their faith.
---scott on 10/12/14


'Victims of Deception'- Warwick.

How underwhelming! Warwick laughably trotts out a supposed disgruntled ex-jw in an attempt to justify his and aka's misrepresentation of the WTS. Assuming his wild stories are true, you can hardly rely on the evidence of a bitter and twisted ex-jw to provide an objective view of Jehovah's Witnesses or the WTS.

Former JW's will sensationalise their "harrowing" experiences because they want to titillate the minds of gullible individuals such as Warwick.

But as anticipated, no evidence has been brought to show how the WTS "rips" families apart- it just is not true. JW's publish many publications designed to help all familes apply Bible principles to remain happy families.
---David8318 on 10/11/14


David we all know families which have been "ripped apart" by the mind-control of the WTS. I am sure many have also read the 'I escaped' stories of those who made it out. They make harrowing reading. Some of them have never fully recovered from their horrors they were subjected to.

I suggest those interested read "JEHOVAH's WITNESSES Victims of Deception by Ralph T. Miller.
---Warwick on 10/10/14


I doubt it will be the last.
---David8318 on 10/10/14

it's up to the moderator. if it is lies, then why not post it?
---aka on 10/10/14


I'm still waiting for you to provide evidence where the WTS "rips" families apart.

Your wild hysterical rantings are fuelled by your inherent desire to push lies and subterfuge.
---David8318 on 10/11/14




'The moderator has the freedom to censor my replies'- aka.

Its probably got something to do with the fact that you are inept at discussing the point of the blog: "the Only Begotten" Son.

Whenever JW's make a point to which you cannot refute, your default mode is smokescreen, red-herrings and untruths about JW's and the WTS.

Try posting something about the blog! Not your distorted, intenet fuelled views of the WTS!
---David8318 on 10/11/14


You have the freedom to call me a liar. The moderator has the freedom to censor my replies. Over the years 1stcliff has expressed this. I don't know why he won't speak now. It probably has something to do with the same censorship and perceived retribution. My lord knows the truth and so does yours. Everybody will bow to the Truth.
---aka on 10/10/14


'you, then, are calling cliff1 a liar?'- aka.

No I'm calling you a liar.

There is nothing cliff has said (yet) that shows the WTS "rips" families apart.

You make wild, rabid and unsubstantiated statements about the WTS which have no basis in truth. Its not the first time you have made hysterical claims about the WTS and I doubt it will be the last.
---David8318 on 10/10/14


//of your gods//

did you not say in other blogs that there is one Supreme god, Jehovah, as the supreme God who over all other lesser Gods using Psa 136:2?
---aka on 10/9/14


//What nonsense is aka referring to?//

you, then, are calling cliff1 a liar?
---aka on 10/9/14




Example, My "crime" was that I resigned from WTBTS and was immediately disfellowshiped!
My daughter just simply quit going and nothing happened to her.(family wise)I am still "shunned" other family witnesses associate with her, but not me!like my son and other daughter who change partners regularly (adultery and excess alcohol) they have no problem associating with them but do not come near me !
A 3rd daughter, who's daughter married a Catholic, visits them regularly, but I was never allowed to be her grandfather, and they still don't speak!
Of course I'm bitter! Too many double standards !
---1stcliff on 10/9/14


'aka's mischaracterization'.

It is a common mischaracterisation or lie that the WTS somehow 'rips families apart for the sake of your gods' (aka 10/8/14). How does aka think JW's rip families apart? What nonsense is aka referring to?

It is certainly my experience that JW's promote clean family living even when other family members do not share the same belief's.

For example, a sister in a nearby congregation became a JW but her alcoholic husband did not & opposed her for many years. Her good example however affected her husband to the extent he became a JW. Our sister says she has not seen Jesus turn water into wine, but she has seen how Bible teaching can turn beer into furniture- 1Pe.3:1.
---David8318 on 10/9/14


And it is my personal experience that this is more the rule than the exception.
---scott on 10/9/14

Not in my family.

My brother, a Baptist minister, has very little contact with his daughter who married a JW. She will not come over on holidays, birthdays, and even weekends due to her being in church on Saturday and he being in church on Sunday.

We, the extended family, rarely see my niece since we get together mainly on the holidays, or birthdays, or anniversaries.
---Mark_Eaton on 10/9/14


Then why do you not understand that to see or live in the kingdom of GOD you must be Born again?


John 3:3

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.



John 3:5-6

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Are you Born Again?
---Samuelbb7 on 10/9/14


becoming one of Jehovah's Witnesses has actually brought me much closer to my extended family in spite of our theological differences. And it is my personal experience that this is more the rule than the exception.
---scott on 10/9/14

aka's mischaracterization?

i simply have heard no one report it this way. so, this seems to be the exception rather than the rule.

maybe, wts treats non-jw families different than ex-jw members. i was going on many ex-witnesses witness. i do not have experience with non-witness families' witness.

all one needs to do is research the witness of ex jws. there is no "mischaractization" there.
---aka on 10/9/14


1stcliff, my Father was Baptist through and through...as is my entire family (sans wife and kids).

In contrast to aka's mischaracterization below, becoming one of Jehovah's Witnesses has actually brought me much closer to my extended family in spite of our theological differences. And it is my personal experience that this is more the rule than the exception.
---scott on 10/9/14


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Scott, I don't wish to be insensitive , and uncaring, I well know the loss of a father.
Was he also a "witness?"
---1stcliff on 10/8/14


//I send warm thoughts and Christian love to you aka. Sounds like you may it.//
---scott on 10/8/14

where was cliff1's warm thoughts and Christian love when his brother (i think) recently passed? he may need it more than i do.

you see, the jws did not include cliff1 as a family member since he is not jw and his family member was.

my sincere condolences to you and your family for the passing of your father.
---aka on 10/8/14


//"Largely accepted."

Yes as a translational issue.//

somebody in the jw ranks might want to let someone know in the wts that the tranlators of the nwt are in the minority.

this is not about pronunciation (smokescreen again). this is about the correct spelling of God's name which the nwt tranlators have made perfectly clear that romaniztion of God's name is just fine.
---aka on 10/8/14


"i am neither ashamed..." aka

I send warm thoughts and Christian love to you aka. Sounds like you may it.
---scott on 10/8/14


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Your comments here reveal something truly dark and distasteful
---scott

they sure do.

do you actually read your replies to others? i have for the last five years or so. they are not so kind to those who disagree with you.

the fangs of the "baptist who likes to study with jws" did not take long to expose themselves after i refused your empty compliments.

i am neither ashamed nor will i use my father's death to garner sympathy for other purposes. i will simply say that i have been occupied and it will be for more than two days out of respect for him, my family, and myself.

you are in a cult that relies on subterfuge and rips families apart for the sake of your gods. do not talk to me about dark.
---aka on 10/8/14


"Largely accepted."

Yes as a translational issue.

The name of God is an integral part of His inspired word, appearing nearly 7,000 times in the original text. How one chooses to pronounce it is up to them. To compare that discussion to practices of pagan origin is silly.

Jesus said to his Father "I have made your name known...and will make it known." John 17:26

"Sorry your Father had a son..."

Your comments here reveal something truly dark and distasteful. I've been at my fathers side, 1,000 miles away from home, children and business for three weeks, saying goodbye to someone who meant the world to me. I fly home Friday. You should be ashamed of yourself.
---scott on 10/8/14


But many of the things the wts gets upset about are of no importance.

Birthdays, Christmas, and pronouncing a name correctly from a foreign language when no one knows how to pronounce it correctly are minor unimportant details.

But that is what many do they try to make mountains out of molehills to exalt themselves as the only ones correct.

JESUS exalted Love and Justice above all else.

Micah 6:8
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good, and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

Read Matthew 25
agape
---Samuelbb7 on 10/8/14


//Jehovah is a largely accepted//

So is Christmas and birthdays and hellfire and all the other things that wts say have pagan origins.

See my point. It is a widely accepted practice. For a name so important. It seems that this widely accepted practice comes from catholics.

I am sorry that your dad had a son that uses his death as an occasion to further put down others. also...He raised a son who only gave him a few days homage? Seriously? Cliff is right...jws do seem a bit heartless.
---aka on 10/7/14


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Sorry to hear your Dad died.

GOD be with you.
---Samuelbb7 on 10/7/14


'Matt 28:19'-MarkEaton.

In context Jesus said, 'All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me'.

To baptize 'therefore in the name of...' indicates that a subject of that authority is doing the authority's will for that authority. For example, the phrase 'Stop in the name of the Law' does not refer to the Law's personal name. It refers to the purpose of the Law as established by an authority.

Thus to suggest verse 19 incorrectly uses the singular if to identify three distinct individuals due to the grammatically singular word 'name' is a hermeneutic violation of the immediate context ignoring the fact that all (singular) authority had been given to Jesus alone.

Scott- sorry to hear of your loss.
---David8318 on 10/7/14


"Know one will answer..." aka (1)

Burying my father seemed more important than responding to your unintelligible question. But for the benefit of others who follow these "discussions" I will attempt to decipher what you're getting at and offer my 2 shekels worth.

1. No one (scholar or layman) knows how the divine name was originally pronounced. Biblical Hebrew has no vowels. You know how to pronounce "bldg." because you know what vowels belong inside the consonants. With YHWH we don't know...for sure. The Neqqudot came later.

2. Yehovah is a possible Modern Hebrew translation. Yehowah Biblical. See the book by Gerard Gertoux discussing the pronunciation of the divine name.
---scott on 10/7/14


"Answer..." aka (2)

3. Jehovah is a largely accepted representation of YHWY just as Jeremiah represents his name in Hebrew: Yrmyhu and Jesus is universally accepted to represent the letters Yod, Shin, Waw and Ayin (Yeshuah).

4. JWs agree with Byinginton regarding his use of "Jehovah":
"The spelling and pronunciation are not highly important. What is highly important is...this is a personal name. There are several texts that cannot be properly understood if we translate this name by a common noun like "Lord."

5. I use Yehovah when speaking to Jews and Israelis, Jehovah otherwise. Japanese JWs use "Ehoba," Maori use "Ihowa," Cantonese: "Yehwowah," etc.
---scott on 10/7/14


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Yes. Probably even Yehowah
---scott on 10/4/14

So what name of God would you use in this verse?

Matt 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit"

As a matter of fact, this verse is grammatically incorrect if three distinct persons with three distinct names are involved. The verse must read "in the names of the Father..." if three different names are to be used.

Even your NWT Bible shows Matt 28:19 using singular a noun.
---Mark_Eaton on 10/7/14


Plus...the use of j is not anglican...it is roman.

Even kjv 1611 uses ie. ... iesus and iehovah. That is anglican.

J was first seen a few centuries earlier in catholic texts. That is roman.

No answer from Scott was the better approach than your (pl) attempts at putting me in question.
---aka on 10/6/14


Flogging a dead horse?

Did you ever notice how many variations of the begotten son blogs, evolution blogs, spirit being an it, hellfire, jesus angel blogs there are? I never heard you say that to anyone. In fact...you are the author of many of them.

I am asking why a non jw variation of the father's name is acceptable to the jws. Also...Scott is now criticizing the translators of the nwt.

What does it matter to since supposedly you are not a jw?

I notice know one will answer but with smokescreens.
---aka on 10/6/14


aka, Seems here you are flogging a dead horse.
Everyone knows that the Tetragrammaton (YHWH)is unpronounceable in English, so a combination words resulted in Jehovah being an Anglicized pronouncement of the Divine name.
"Jesus" is also not the exact way Christ's name was originally spoken!
Corruption of the name depends on which language is spoken!
Jesus said "hallowed be Thy name", or sanctified is your name, (the Lord's prayer)
---1stcliff on 10/6/14


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scott, passing by the my puzzling sentence, let's deal with the real issue.

//Yes. Probably even Yehowah. -scott//


From the jw main website: The Divine Name:Its Use and Its Meaning: "Clearly, God's name is of the utmost importance. "why would the WTS accept an anglicized version of the Father's name?
---aka on 10/5/14


"the conventions that we use to derive The Father's name pales in comparison to the importance Yehovah's Witnesses." aka

Uhhh...what?
---scott on 10/4/14


"Yehovah would be more correct. ..right?" aka

Yes. Probably even Yehowah. -scott

the conventions that we use to derive The Father's name pales in comparison to the importance Yehovah's Witnesses.

From the jw main website: The Divine NameIts Use and Its Meaning: "Clearly, Gods name is of the utmost importance. "

Then, why would the WTS accept an anglicized version of his name which first originated from a Catholic monk?
---aka on 10/4/14


"Dishonesty...Evasive" Marc

Easy enough to scroll through the posts below to see that our Christian Zionist friend Marc has avoided the questions about their views regarding poverty (a curse from God) and the Jews not needing to convert to Christianity, having a dual covenant.

Additionally, the point regarding Rom. 10:9, 10 (ministry/salvation) has been conveniently avoided. Rather, it's plain to see that he introduces new, unrelated topics as red herrings to change the subject...hoping that no one will notice.

We did.
---scott on 10/4/14


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"Yehovah would be more correct. ..right?" aka

Yes. Probably even Yehowah.

But if you prefer to remove the anglicized "J" (and perhaps "V") then you should probably follow suit by pronouncing Jeremiah as Yermiyah or even more accurately as Yirmeyahu, Joshua as Yehoshua. etc.
---scott on 10/4/14


Yehovah would be more correct. ..right?

Romanization...the letter j is not used in Hebrew or greek.

A catholic monk's convention only a yehovah vitness can yibber around.
---aka on 10/3/14


Dishonesty, a trademark for the Watchtower, again shows itself in Scott. Evasive and plainly clutching at straws...So,Scott, do you call Jesus by THAT name i.e. YHWH re Jeremiah 23:6? I bet you don't!!!

Recently I've been asking male JWs would they attempt to stop a gun-toting rapist assaulting their wife and daughter. Most say of course. (A few cowardly individuals believe that they shouldn't as it's against JW principles) I then ask them would they stop a similar criminal doing it to their next-door neighbour's daughter. They freeze.
Then would they stop, say, ISIS doing it to their neighbours' daughters. Again, freeze in cowardly apoplexy.
---Marc on 10/4/14


"YHWH is our righteousness." Marc

Happy to address this topic...again.

But first we eagerly await your response to the verse(s) that you failed to include in your post regarding salvation: Rom 10:9, 10 and Ez 3:19.

Additionally, while the scriptural basis for any doctrinal teaching is open to discussion, even argumentation based on principles of translation, interpretation, the original languages, etc...

...what is the scriptural basis for your Christian Zionist views regarding poverty and the dual covenant of the Jews? (Below)
---scott on 10/3/14


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Scott,

While we're on the subject of God being called YHWH (i.e. Jehovah), Jeremiah 23:5,6 tells us to call a future king of the line of David (i.e. Jesus) YHWH. This states this even in your mistranslation. The verse reads "and [Jesus'] name with which he will be called [is] YHWH is our righteousness."

So,Scott, do you call Jesus by THAT name i.e. YHWH? I bet you don't!!!

Once again, the Watchtower and their representatives inconsistently apply their heretical theology.
---Marc on 10/3/14


"Lord means God." Mark_Eaton

Couple things:

1. Deut. 6:16 not Ex.

2. "Lord" at Deut. 6:16 is a mistranslation. The actual Hebrew text says: "YHWH Elohakem", [Jehovah your God] not "Lord."

3. Jesus at Matt 4:10 also quotes Ps 91:11 "For he [the father] will command his angels...to guard you [Jesus] in all your ways." Jesus uses this to counsel Satan against putting the Father [YHWH] to the test.

4. The word "Lord" does not mean "God." Adonai [Heb, Lord] and its various forms apply scripturally to the Father, the Son (never the HS) to angels (Ge 19:1, 2, Da 12:8) and to men (1 Sam 25:24, Ac 16:16, 19, 30), etc., etc.
---scott on 10/3/14


This generation is going to have RE-LEARN scripture.

Rom 8:19 as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.


...(this was said TO THE JEWS, WE (SPIRIT-FILLED Jesus worshipers have been ADOPTED and are SONS of God).

Gal 4:5
to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.

We are NOT UNDER THE LAW OF 10 Commandments.

Verses are from the RSV.
---faithforfaith on 10/3/14


"If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe...
---scott on 10/3/14

Yet, this is the essence of the problem with what David said, "Jesus is not God". But, Jesus is Lord? What does Lord mean in the above verse? You and David want to explain that Lord is a role that Jesus plays, such as High Priest, and not who He really Jesus is.

I want to express that Jesus is God, and Lord means God. Look at Matt. 4:7. Jesus quotes (Exod 6:16) "do not temp the Lord thy God" to Satan, who has been in the presence of God, and Satan does not rebuke Jesus for not being God. Satan knows Jesus is God.
---Mark_Eaton on 10/3/14


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"But hang on..." Marc (1)

Christian Zionist Marc (of course) fails to include the two scriptural citations given that clearly indicate some connection between evangelizing and salvation:

"If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe...that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved." Rom 10:9, 10, NIV. See also Ez 3:19

But Eph 2:8 indicates that "It is by grace [an act of kindness" GNT] you have been saved, through faith and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God."

Salvation can't be earned.
---scott on 10/3/14


"But hang on..." Marc (2)

Since clearly God's word identifies both the free gift of salvation and the principle of 'dead faith' without works (James 2:14-26) Christian Zionist Marc's time would be better spent explaining:

1. The apparent contradiction (and it's not).

2. Why Christian Zionists preach a message found no where in God's word. Such as:

"Poverty is a curse." (Hagee, Praise-A-Thon broadcast, TBN, 4 November 1992).

"Trying to convert Jews is a waste of time. Jews already have a covenant with God and that has never been replaced by Christianity." (Hagee, Houston Chronicle, April 30, 1988, sec, 6, pg. 1).
---scott on 10/3/14


But GOD is our Savior. So if Jesus is not GOD then He cannot be our Savior.

Isaiah 43:3

For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.

Hosea 13:4

Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.

To be saved you must be Born Again. See John 3. Have you been Born again?

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 10/2/14


Elsewhere David writes, "No, Jesus is not God. I honour Jesus by recognising him as my saviour"

But hang on David: How can Jesus BE your saviour if the Watchtower decrees that YOU must WORK for YOUR salvation...and even then you don't know if you will spend eternity on earth i.e. you don't know if you are saved.

"Twelve Reasons for Preaching
7. It is a requirement for our own salvation."
Kingdom Ministry 2012 June p.1
---Marc on 10/2/14


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We are ADOPTED SONS of the Father, not "BEGOTTEN".
---faithforfaith on 10/2/14


The meaning of "only Begotten" Son, means that Christ is the Begotten Son of God in the sense that no other is. This is illustrated in the use of the same word in regard to Isaac (Heb. 11:17), who was not literally the only begotten son of Abraham but was the only begotten of Abraham in the sense that he was the promised seed. Christ was also the promised SEED, the only Begotten Son of God.
All the other sons of God (like all Christians) are not the promised SEED. Only Jesus is.
---Luke on 10/2/14


We are SUPPOSED TO BE sons of God (by choice and false tradition, many rather be slaves of A MASTER).

Rom 8:23 and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies (this was said TO THE JEWS...WE have been adopted).

Gal 4:6 "Abba! Father!"

Eph 1:5 in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Heb 12:5 "My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor lose courage when you are punished by him.

Verses are from the RSV.
---faithforfaith on 10/1/14


He revealed Himself to Abraham as three Persons under the oaks of Mamre.


Cluny on 9/15/14

Please read the whole chapter and the next. Verse 22 says the men went towards Sodom. Chapter 19:1 says two angels came to Sodom, to Lot.

The LORD stayed with Abraham as Abraham pleaded for the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah.

The narrative continues through chapter 20. Some reasoning required here. 3 men came, the LORD stayed, 2 angels went towards Sodom.

Great possibility this is
speaking about the same three who came.

Certainly not a chapter to support the Trinity doctrine.
---therese on 9/30/14


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Cluny, *It took a while for it to sink in **
It never did "sink in" they never embraced anything but a "singular" God as God Himself said at Deut.6.4.
It has never been necessary for God to be more than one person , ever, He can handle everything.
Because He's immortal it was necessary for His Son to die in His stead, which He did willingly !
God cannot die ! Deal with it !
---1stcliff on 9/18/14


God is our "Father", and Jesus is the only One brought from Himself as His Son.

If a human father has a son, that son is human. God is divine, His Son also is divine.

It can be like if you reach out your hand to someone. That hand is you, though it is not all of you (c:

Jesus is "the image of God" (2 Corinthians 4:4). It is like how an image of gold has only gold in it, but there is also gold elsewhere.

And God made man in His image. And mankind is made up of three basic persons, but not of love since man has fallen. But God is three Persons of family caring and sharing love.
---com7fy8 on 9/16/14


**Many bible versions translate monogenes as one and only. **

Name one. ---Cluny on 9/15/14


Check out any good online bible programmes such as BlueLineBible or BibleHub and you can bring up a verse in a number of versions.

The ones translating MONOGENES in John 3:16 as ONE AND ONLY or similar words, (no Begotten), are New Living, New International, English standard, Holman Christian standard, Revised Standard and some others not so well known.
---therese on 9/16/14


While GOD did refer to himself as we in Genesis the doctrine of the Trinity was hidden and only hints of it given. JESSIS commented on one.


Mat 22:42-45

Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

Here JESUS is revealing that He is the Lord.
---Samuelbb7 on 9/15/14


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\\Cluny, So you're saying that after He revealed Himself to Abraham as three "persons" they embraced the trinity concept ?
Where is it written that this happened ?\\

Because of the hardness of people's hearts, it took a while for it to sink in.

It still hasn't sunk in with you.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/15/14


Cluny, So you're saying that after He revealed Himself to Abraham as three "persons" they embraced the trinity concept ?
Where is it written that this happened ?
---1stcliff on 9/15/14


\\Why is it , that for 4,000 years God never indicated to "His people" that He was a Godhead consisting of more than one personality ?\\

Yes, He did.

He revealed Himself to Abraham as three Persons under the oaks of Mamre.

And the word is PERSONS, not "personalities.'

If you use the wrong terminology, it means you're thinking the wrong way.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/15/14


Kinda,like crept in the back door when no one was looking !
---1stcliff on 9/15/14

The Jews never knew God. They knew of God. They told Moses "you talk to us for if God speaks to us we will die". They took what God gave them and created an even greater religion of rules and laws for people to shoulder.

Only after Jesus came do we know that God can be a Father. Jesus is the only one who knows the Father. What Jesus tells us of the Father, we know it is true because Jesus was sent by the Father.

So who would you like to believe, Jesus or the Jews?
---Mark_Eaton on 9/15/14


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Why is it , that for 4,000 years God never indicated to "His people" that He was a Godhead consisting of more than one personality ?
He led them, instructed them, protected them, but even today the Jewish people do not embrace a triune God. Never did ! Deut.6.4.
Ah, but now, everybody and his uncle believes in a trinity?
Does that not tell you anything?
Kinda,like crept in the back door when no one was looking !
---1stcliff on 9/15/14


James, in a letter to the dispersed members of the twelve tribes, gives a good outline of true religion. .....

it describes goodness, kindness, and patience.
---aka on 9/14/14

Hmmmm. True. One might see also the marks written, on a heart or mind. I have.

Psa 37:31 The law of his God is in his heart, none of his steps shall slide.
Isa_51:7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law, fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.
Jer_31:33 ..... saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts,.....
---Trav on 9/15/14


\\Does the bible speak against these traditions? \\

Does the Bible speak FOR them?

\\What is wrong with these if they give glory to God, as I believe they do.\\

On what objective basis do you believe this, other than that you practice them?

**Many bible versions translate monogenes as one and only. **

Name one.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/15/14


Here's the one stickler that prevents me from embracing the beliefs of fundamentalists...
---1stcliff on 9/14/14

That is because their teaching is incomplete.

First, Jesus came to give us life, His life. He did not come to pay our sin debt, but Jesus came to provide adoption for us. Adoption into the family of God. Jesus raised humanity to be seated with God. Included with God but not equal to God.

Secondly, the equality in God is in the quality of their relationship. They share a relationship so close and so intimate it can only be described as one-ness.

Third, the Father, Son, and Spirit are distinct but inseparable. They are complete and lacking nothing.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/15/14


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No Protestant is "bible based," as they are all full of traditions and precepts of men that are NOWHERE in the Bible, such as revivals, altar calls, invitation hymns, and even carrying around personal Bibles. Cluny 9/14

Does the bible speak against these traditions? What is wrong with these if they give glory to God, as I believe they do.
---therese on 9/14/14


Many bible versions translate monogenes as one and only.

Bible scholars believe the root of this word is NOT gennao, to beget, but genus, meaning of a kind. So this points to the uniqueness of this Son. One and only.

I think the reason God the Father called Jesus His Son and Jesus called God His Father was to show a really close relationship as a perfect father and son can have. In fact, they are as one. Jesus could say The Father and I are One.

Philippians 2:6 indicates Jesus had equality which He gave up while on this earth.
---therese on 9/14/14


Aka, SDAs teachings are biblically based and if you go study their teachings, you will end up a SDA as most people has who were gutsy enough to go Study it and found it sound and true.
---Jasper on 9/15/14


"Only begotten" indicates that there are/may be other "Sons" who are not begotten...who might they be ?
---1stcliff on 9/15/14


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\\Baptist,Presbyterian,Methodist,Lutheran Brethren, etc. called "Mainstream"?(Catholicism is not bible based)\\

No Protestant is "bible based," as they are all full of traditions and precepts of men that are NOWHERE in the Bible, such as revivals, altar calls, invitation hymns, and even carrying around personal Bibles.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/14/14


cliff, i believe those churches are biblically related (some more accurately than other) but they are also not biblically sound.

the only true religion comes from the Body of Christ, which has no walls and is open 24/7.

James, in a letter to the dispersed members of the twelve tribes, gives a good outline of true religion. for those of us who are not from the twelve tribes can learn from this.

it describes goodness, kindness, and patience. it is not a religion of rules and secrecy and hatred of others not like us. it is a religion that we treat each other well...as jesus says...a new commandment...that we love one another.
---aka on 9/14/14


Here's the one stickler that prevents me from embracing the beliefs of fundamentalists.

Jesus referred to His disciples as "these my brothers".
Cluny and others believe that Jesus was "fully God"
So this makes people brothers of God.
A "brotherhood is a group of "equals"
To place ones self in the position of equal to God is sheer blasphemy is it not ?
---1stcliff on 9/14/14


The Greek word used at Hebrews 11:17-19 to describe the relationship of Isaac to Abraham is 'mono-genes'.

'By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son ('monogenes')'- Heb.11:17 (KJV).

There can be no question that Isaac was 'only begotten' in the normal sense, not equal in time or position to Abraham.

John also uses 'mono-genes' at John 1:18, 'No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son ('mono-genes')...hath declared him' (KJV).

Almighty God can be called Jesus' Begetter in the same sense that Abraham begets a son- Heb.11:19. Jesus and his Father are 2 seperate individuals.
---David8318 on 9/14/14


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Correction to prior post, this line should read "Thus, His only begotten, in the [sense] of that which He caused in order to produce a desire effect.
---joseph on 9/14/14


aka, Maybe you could clarify a couple of things for me...
By "sound biblically based religion" you mean Baptist,Presbyterian,Methodist,Lutheran Brethren, etc. called "Mainstream"?(Catholicism is not bible based)
---1stcliff on 9/14/14


cliff,

i apologize, but the other blog was closed. i want to respond to your post to me. What they did to you was horrendous. The fact that you continue to hold most of their beliefs is even more astounding.

A handful of sects like the JWs, SDAs, christadelphians, Armstrong, COG did have a common start in the Millerite movement of the 1830s. true they are not a splinter of any sound biblically based religion.

You say : My argument is not based on WBTS beliefs. My belief is based on logic and reason.

Your core beliefs are exactly what they believe and it is based on logic and reason of very tainted material from the start.
---aka on 9/14/14


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