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Finish It Here Sept 2014

"FINISH IT HERE" BLOG PLEASE.

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 ---Leon on 9/22/14
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Leon, man-up and admit the truth.

Well maybe I am making too much of it. Maybe gratuitous rudeness is just second nature to you!
---Warwick on 10/2/14


Warwick,
I wanted to thank you for your answers and also for not being rude to anyone. I am sorry so many get upset, or say things outside of the answer itself, directed to you. Your discussions are right to the point always. I know you do not need my answer but I thought it was the right time to say what I said. You do know how to debate very well, I wish everyone could answer as kindly as you do. I for one only have a problem with Genesis 1 concerning time, but do agree the days after the Sun were about 24 hrs. Agape
---Luke on 10/2/14


Leon, ---- That you could not point to any rudeness of mine is proof you were playing fast and loose with the truth.
---Warwick on 10/1/14

Warwick, i believe we have discussed this tactic of yours before. Saying because one does not respond to your insults PROVES they are lying about the TRUTH OF GOD......uuuuhhhh...IS RUDE AND INSULTING.

Unless YOU are God and the Keeper of TRUTH, one has nothing to do with the other.

So let me point out here Warwick, this very comment posted with your name under itself is RUDE and insulting.
---kathr4453 on 10/2/14


And Warwick, Genesis 2:4 uses rhe word GENERATIONS, as describing TIME, re creation, seeing you refused to answer that part, PROVING you are playing fast and loose with the Word lf God. Genesis 2 is a summary of chapter 1.
---kathr453 on 10/2/14


Stop pouting & growup Warwick! :)
---Leon on 10/1/14




Leon, it is sad that you have chosen to be so rude in your blogs to me. You claimed I had been rude to you, but when given the opportunity to quote anything rude I had written to you, you failed to do so. In fact you only used the opportunity I gave you to be rude once more. That you could not point to any rudeness of mine is proof you were playing fast and loose with the truth.
---Warwick on 10/1/14


Kath, Genesis 2:4 has no relevance to the length of the days of creation which are 24hrs. Regarding Genesis 2:4 the Holman Bible Dictionary points out on p.397 the underlying word translated "day" is not to be taken as a 24hr day but as "a general expression for time, without specific limits." This is how we use it, as "in my father's day" meaning when He was alive.

As you know 'day' as used in Genesis ch.1 is accompanied by a number and also "evening and morning", meaning a 24hr day. Genesis 2:4 does not have a number or evening and morning therefore is not to be taken as a 24hr day.

Do a little language study and it will become clear to you.
---Warwick on 10/1/14


An assumption is a thing that is erroneously accepted by some people, e.g., bloggers as true without proof. It's always foolish to assume (privately interpret) what the Bible (Scripture) says apart from the "proof revealing" leading of God, the Holy Spirit. Don't let your misguided assumptions fool (make a jackass out of) you Cliff.
---Leon on 10/1/14


An assumption has to be made here, That scripture is speaking relative to the equator. Mid June, mid December north of the arctic and south of the antarctic circles evening and morning ,relative to the sun , does not apply !
So, if one assumption has to be made here, then other assumptions can also apply !
---1stcliff on 10/1/14


Now without evasion answer a question: What time period, other than a 24hr day, is made up of daytime and night-time, having an evening and a morning? ///

My understanding, at the poles, are 6 months day and 6 months night. Technically they have morning and evening based on a clock on the wall, not light and darkness to measure morning and evening.

I've wondered how Law keeping people know what time to come in before the sun goes down for the Sabbath to begin?
---Anonymous on 10/1/14




What light source, dont you read Scripture?

God spoke-there was light-He called the light day and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning-the first day. Where you live does not every day (as with Genesis 1) consist of daytime and night-time?

Now without evasion answer a question: What time period, other than a 24hr day, is made up of daytime and night-time, having an evening and a morning?

How hard you fight to prove the Bible cannot be taken as written.

Your interpretation would have made the Sabbath command meaningless when given, because the six-days of Exodus 20:8-11 are the same as the six days of Genesis 1.
---Warwick on 10/1/14


Warwick, Genesis 1:5. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

The use of evening and morning may be held to limit day to the solar day, BUT, the frequent parabolic use of natural phenomena may warrant the conclusion that it simply means that each CREATIVE DAY, was a period of time marked off by a beginning and end, ....Another definition KJV Bible footnotes


.....and seeing the sun was not there forcing a 24 hr solar day.
We also see Genesis 1:1-2. How can you possibly measure time here, you insist belongs to the first day?



---kathr4453 on 10/1/14


And Warwick, until you face Genesis 2:4 it really doesn't matter to me what you believe. Your belief will alway s show you limit yourself to only certain scriptures you can justify fitting into your box, putting God into a Box that you can understand, with a total disregard for scripture you ignore or explain away because it upsets your safe little world.

Come out of that box Warwick, because if you are willing, the Lord wants to show you things through His Word that will take you on a spiritual journey beyond our frail human understanding.
---kathr453 on 10/1/14


Warwick:

You said: StrongAxe, all that is necessary to create 1 day is a fixed light source and a turning earth

I agree. But what light source fits that description? It wasn't the sun, as that was created several days later, and part of the light went into stars (that are in a totally different location).

Six days is six days

Yes, but this does not in any way qualify what KIND of days.

Your interpretation makes the Sabbath meaningless to the Israelites.

Only before the sun was created, and there were no Jews at that time.
---StrongAxe on 9/30/14


Kath, if you read what I have written, and do some research you will understand. The Holman Bible Dictionary 2003 p. 397 gives Genesis 1:5 as the defining example of 24hr day. Why? Because in Genesis 1:5 'day' is preceded by 'first' and it is this combination which defines the 24hr meaning. This fact is echoed in the standard Hebrew Lexicon which says that 'day' in Genesis 1:5 is a 24hr day.

Even though I pointed out the number/day combination you chose to use an invalid example "DAY of His vengeance" which of course has no number coupled with it.

Day, as anyone can see is used with a number in Genesis 1:5 and 'day' is used with a number 410 times outside of Genesis 1 always meaning a 24hr day.
---Warwick on 9/30/14


StrongAxe, all that is necessary to create 1 day is a fixed light source and a turning earth-'And God said "Let there be light" and there was light...and there was evening and there was morning-the first day.' Every following day is described identically, e.g. see 1:23.

In Exodus 20:8-11 God said work 6 days and rest the 7th. Why? "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them." Six days is six days.

Professor Marcus Dods wrote "if, for example,the word 'day' in these chapters does not mean a period of twenty-four hours, the interpretation of Scripture is hopeless." Your interpretation makes the Sabbath meaningless to the Israelites.
---Warwick on 9/30/14


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So the problem is, those who have no spiritual understanding only see the literal through the earthly mind. What this does is rob one of the joy of a deeper understanding of scripture.

Psalms 118:24 This is THE DAY that the Lord hath made, we will rejoice and be glad in IT. Day here is singular, IT also singular.

So with Warwick literal interpretation of DAY,
What 24 hour solar DAY is God talking about Warwick? Monday? Tuesday perhaps? Maybe Wednesday?

This verse has great depth not understood by a 24 hour solar experience. Don't MISS OUT on these wonderful verses by being held down by those who have no clue.
---kathr4453 on 9/30/14


In Genesis 1:3-5 God defines that 1 day is made up of light (daytime) and darkness (night). And further that 1 day runs from evening to evening (still so in the Middle East).

This defines, one thing, what we call a 24hr day.
---Warwick on 9/29/14

Actually this is not true. Seeing from Genesis 1:1-2 we see that of LIGHT brought out of Darkness. There is a much deeper meaning as well of light and darkness.

And the DAY of His vengeance also "YOM" is not a 24 hour day. So again, DAY, Darkness, Light, night in scripture have many meanings not exclusively a 24 hour solar day.

When LIGHT came into the World, "Jesus", he entered our darkness.
---kathr4453 on 9/30/14


John 9:4

I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.


OK, here is a perfect example. Are we to believe Jesus work on earth was under some sort of LAW forbidding one to work at night?
---kathr453 on 9/30/14


"Leon, you say I have been rude. Please give chapter and verse or withdraw what you have said. [?]
Regarding faith in science the record shows it was you who brought up scientific evidence to support a view of yours. As you can read I said I do not know of any such evidence. Please give evidence of my dogmatism."
---Warwick on 9/30/14


Nevermind Warwick. It would be easier to show a blind man sitting in a dark room a cat that isn't there.
---Leon on 9/30/14


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Warwick:

You said:
StrongAxe,you are proposing that God needs the sun to mark out a day but He disagrees.


I never said nor implied that. What I DID say is that we NOW use the sun to mark out days, but the sun COULD NOT HAVE BEEN USED during the first few days when it did not exist - so yes, God did have a way to mark out days then, but it was something OTHER than the sun. We don't know what that was. God didn't think it was important enough to be specific about.
---StrongAxe on 9/30/14


Leon, you say I have been rude. Please give chapter and verse or withdraw what you have said.

Regarding faith in science the record shows it was you who brought up scientific evidence to support a view of yours. As you can read I said I do not know of any such evidence. Please give evidence of my dogmatism.
---Warwick on 9/30/14


Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,

Funny, "day" here should say in the 6 dayS He created them. And those who stick to a 6000 year old earth want us to believe GENERATIONS means 6 / 24 hour days. Yet no scripture whatsoever backs up "a generation" meaning a 24 hour day.

Yet we too believe by FAITH, and hold the very verses sacred Warwick clings to himself.
---kathr4453 on 9/30/14


Strongaxe,
You have made some very good points. I believe I did the same some time back with someone else. Twenty four hours is never mentioned. Exodus 20:8-11 does not say 24 hours. And the reason we say twenty four hours is because of the Sun. In the beginning there was no Sun. There was light. And of course God does not need a Sun to call a day 24 hours, but He never did call the days in Genesis 1, 24 hours. That period of time could have been longer if it was measured by todays standards.
If the Bible had said a day is twenty four hours, it would have been false. The reason we have a leap year. And the Bible does not lie.
---Luke on 9/30/14


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Exodus describes a Solar day, when the earth makes one revolution around the sun on it's axis. But we have no proof in the first 6 days these were solar days. We know by the positioning of the north and south pole on it's axis, based on the sun hitting these areas we have ICE. yet we see ice was not supposed to have been formed until after the flood. So we really don't know if days and years before the flood was measured in the same way as after the flood. Which could also explain the longevity of man before the flood.
Just a thought.
---kathr453 on 9/30/14


To the committed sceptic nothing proves anything. We follow Jesus by faith, knowing "whatever does not proceed from faith is sin" Romans 14:23.

In Genesis 1:3-5 God defines that 1 day is made up of light (daytime) and darkness (night). And further that 1 day runs from evening to evening (still so in the Middle East).

This defines, one thing, what we call a 24hr day. However for those who reinterpret Scripture through man's beliefs this is not good enough as Scripture says "See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ."

Day-length is confirmed by Exodus 20:8-11.
---Warwick on 9/29/14


StrongAxe,you are proposing that God needs the sun to mark out a day but He disagrees. "Then God said, "Let there be light", and there was light...... God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day."

Compare this to a post sun day "And there was evening and there was morning, the fifth day."

God delayed making the sun for a few days and I wonder (just my opinion) if He did so for the reason explained in Ezekiel 8:16 "...... and their faces toward the east, worshiping the sun toward the east." Maybe God delayed making the sun to show it is just a thing, not something to be worshiped, just one way He could light the earth.
---Warwick on 9/29/14


Well Marc, unless God has continued to work 6 days a week and rests every 7th, we can rightly say these are specific 24 hour days. But God rested on the seventh and is still resting from all the works He has done. So that day, you want to box into 24 hours never really ended if God is still resting...OR God is still creating and those works were not complete. Did God put a 24 hour time limit on His rest? God is timeless and works outside of time, and rests outside of time. Just saying all these days, including the 7th have a much deeper meaning than 24 hours. But that is something the Lord Himself will have to reveal to you. Many want to say " in the beginning" was a 24 hour day too. I totally disagree.
---kathr4453 on 9/29/14


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Kath wrote: "Seeing God rested on the 7th day and we see He is still resting from the day of creation, puts God's 7th day now going on 6000 years."

Can you unpack that a bit more? I think you haven't explained your argument as to why God's still resting means that the first 6 days aren't 6 ordinary days and not long periods of time.
---Marc on 9/29/14


Warwick:

Of course we do, because NOW we have sun by which we can measure the length of days - which just happen to be approximately 24 hours long. This has been the case for all of human history. But it was NOT the case for the first few days in Genesis 1, so you cannot use the current way we measure days to determine how those first few days were measured - because it would be impossible to measure them that way.
---StrongAxe on 9/29/14


Seeing God rested on the 7th day and we see He is still resting from the day of creation, puts God's 7th day now going on 6000 years.

SOOOOO there is no PROOF the days of CREATION are in fact 24 hour days! AND the verse in Exodus cannot prove the days of creation are in fact 24 hour days.
---kathr4453 on 9/29/14


\\Conversely that 'day' in Genesis ch. 1 means a 24hr day is clear from the context, and is confirmed throughout Scripture as I have shown on many occasions. \\

If it were that clear, there wouldn't be such disagreement over it.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/29/14


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Warwick: You haven't been rude ~ really?!!! :D Obviously, you're floating down the river Denial, blinded by your own rude pomposity as you chase after scientific crocks. Mad? No, I'm amused. :) You are certainly "very dogmatic" about your faith in science. smh
---Leon on 9/29/14


StrongAxe, then be amazed because there is no connection between the two. The meaning of Genesis 1:6,7 is not giver here or anywhere else in Scripture.

Conversely that 'day' in Genesis ch. 1 means a 24hr day is clear from the context, and is confirmed throughout Scripture as I have shown on many occasions.

If I said I have just had a 10 day holiday would you ask-How long are your days? No you would not as we all know what the word day with a number before it means.
---Warwick on 9/29/14


Warwick:

You wrote: I also pointed out that Bible-believing Christians differ in their view of what Genesis 1:6,7 actually means.

I am amazed to hear you admit this, because you used to always insist that "day" in Genesis 1 must necessarily mean 24-hour day, and would not even consider the possibility that any Christian might interpret this differently. Why are some parts of Genesis 1 legitimately open to interpretation, while others are not?
---StrongAxe on 9/29/14


Leon, all along I have made it clear that I am just expressing my view, no more that an opinion. However it is obvious that you are angered because I challenged your view in saying it lacks Biblical proof, and scientific evidence.

I have not been rude, nor dogmatic however I have received rudeness from you.

I have not said I hold any view dogmatically but apparently that is not good enough for you.
---Warwick on 9/29/14


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Kath, as is your usual tactic you create a straw-man argument. As anyone who has actually read what I have written will know that the scientific evidence I wrote about is not about Scripture but about the idea that the proposed water canopy gave humans 900+ years of life. As Scripture does not tell us what caused people to live 900+ years I cannot be asking for scientific evidence to support Scripture, can I?

Originally Leon said there was scientific evidence to support the idea that a water canopy would have lead to humans living extended lives. I said I did not know of any such scientific evidence. And I don't, do you?

Do your research and you will see this is what I said.
---Warwick on 9/29/14


The problem I see with Warwick, and Jerry here is "the literal words of scripture" is what they pull out of their hat when it comes to the earth having to be 6000 years old against scientific proof it is older. But NOW they want to keep up with what is in VOGUE with YEC scientists who now believe the flood was causes by Hypercanes, in direct argument with the Word which says GOD OPENED THE WINDOWS IN HEAVEN ( aka the firmament) and from the foundation of the deep and flooded the earth.

What is in VOGUE now concerning God parting the sea for the Children of Israel? Is it OK with you that some believe GOD parted it without you YEC coming up with some NEW VOGUE explanation? Is it simply OK to just believe God did it?
---kathr4453 on 9/29/14


hunger remains..but my children are not going to spend a lifetime in misguided myths as far as the Lord show mercy.
---aka on 9/27/14

Thanks, aka.
Wish all were as concerned,....one below is for the younger....when I see my kids honor this one, with the elderly it warms me ole heart.
So much to learn....the elderly can give or retain.

1Pe_5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
---Trav on 9/29/14


What is in VOGUE now with Young earth creationists is called the Hypercane Theory.....extreme super hurricanes....caused no less than by, GET THIS...."GLOBAL WARMING".

So we see Giants who have populated the earth, on a diet of brussel sprouts...expelling gasses at an alarming rate into the atmosphere, along with dino's expendables, causing this global warming, that on an alarming rate created one kicking Hypercane flooding the earth. WOW.

I haven't had this much fun since the pigs ate my little brother.
---kathr4453 on 9/28/14


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extended surface (solid), expanse, firmament
expanse (flat as base, support)
firmament (of vault of heaven supporting waters above)
considered by Hebrews as solid and supporting 'waters' above

This is the strong's definition of firmament.

I believe this is in agreement with Leon's last post, also believed by many before Leon. Verse 8 says God called the firmament HEAVEN.
God then opens the windows of heaven, or opened the windows of the firmament allowing the waters above the firmament to pass through. NOW you want scientific proof? Can science prove God parted the sea for Israel?

It's really very simple Warwick.
Maybe you should spend more time asking Jerry to prove God created Adam and Eve as GIANTS.
---kathr4453 on 9/28/14


Warwick: The rudest people I've ever encountered were those quick to call others rude. I recently answered you like I did because on 9/25 you addressed me & spoke of G1:6-7 as being "interpreted differently." You obviously didn't like what I'd said. So, you tried to dismiss it with a scientific straw man. Then, on 9/26, you arrogantly climbed on a soap box & instead of addressing me directly, you indirectly lambasted what I'd said. In summation you said, "I SEE NO CONNECTION & KNOW OF NO SUCH SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE. Anyone wanting to discuss this should stick to the point."

REALLY?!:) You need to understand your pseudo-scientific opinions don't stand in place of Bible evidence. That's the point!
---Leon on 9/28/14


"The canopy [firmament] idea is no longer in vogue with Christians who are scientists."
---Warwick on 9/28/14


Not in vogue, not in current fashion, not in style, doesn't fit in with modern scientific enlightenment? Do you speak for all scientist (Christian & otherwise)? Should that part of Scripture simply be ignored? Really?!!!

What the Bible has said in the past, is saying presently & will say in the future is irrefutable & can't be changed by what anybody (scientist or otherwise) has to say. Please consult your God-given conSCIENCE to point you in the right direction regarding this matter.
---Leon on 9/28/14


"...I also pointed out that Bible-believing Christians differ in their view of what Genesis 1:6,7 actually means..."---Warwick on 9/28/14

HUH?!!!

---Leon on 9/28/14


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Thanks for the clarification Leon. I wondered what brought such a rude response. Please read what I wrote and show where the perceived offence was.

My point goes back to your original comments about scientific evidence and I said I knew of no such evidence which supports your view. By this I firstly refer to lack of scientific evidence which supports there being a water/vapour canopy directly above the earth's atmosphere. And secondly I said I knew of no scientific evidence supporting the life-extension properties of the believed canopy.

I also pointed out that Bible-believing Christians differ in their view of what Genesis 1:6,7 actually means.

The canopy idea is no longer in vogue with Christians who are scientists.
---Warwick on 9/28/14


//Me,forty years// trav

heb 3:9..may your path be well lit and your journey reverse the hardness of others.

for me, it was when i was five. kindergarten..1/2 day. mom wanted me gone whole day so 1st grade catholic school. education was good. but at the time, mass was mandatory once a week. loved it...sanctuary from "free time"...daily ridicule for being poor and showing it.

in mass, i heard about a people that were outcast and ridiculed...just like me. it's been four decades of separating from myths. i am not them. but, i can collect crumbs. it brings me peace.

hunger remains..but my children are not going to spend a lifetime in misguided myths as far as the Lord show mercy.
---aka on 9/27/14


The fact here is, we are given a description in Genesis about these divided waters. We also know that man, still in discovery mode does not know how these waters above the firmament, our lower heaven , where the birds fly, affected the earth at that time. I personally believe all of creation, most especially in our galaxy affects the earth in ways we still do not comprehend....yet are being discovered every day. We will NEVER figure it out in our lifetime.

God gives life and GOD takes it away according to God's will, not comprehended by science or scientific fact. They lived to 900, under a totally different earth and universal structure than we live today.
---kathr4453 on 9/27/14


"Leon, please explain why Genesis 1:6.7 must be taken only as describing a water canopy above the earth."

Warwick: I erred (9/25) when I said God created "a canopy of water" over the earth. What I meant to say was God created a canopy (firmament, heaven, sky) above the earth that held back the waters above it (the canopy). That's what the Bible (G1:6-7) says. Thanks for helping me see that! :)

Luke: No doubt, God definitely controls the life span of His creation. What I've said attest to & agrees with that. Canopy means "firmament". That's what the Bible says (G1:6-7).
---Leon on 9/27/14


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It's GOD who feeds us meat out of His own hand.
---Anonymous on 9/26/14

Then share a little of it. So rich, maybe you've never been hungry either physically or otherwise.
AKA and myself have been / are hungry. Me,forty years. We recognize it in each others hunting.
Hungry? I will eat a steak off the ground....when the comparison is sarcasm, disdain or watery pablum.
You are grilling us.... a steamy plate of sarcasm.
Mmmmm, thanks, for not partaking with us earlier. Come again bring some meat/crumbs next time.
Luk_16:21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
---Trav on 9/27/14


jerry6593 on 9/27/14

Seriously? No gravity? Iwould suggest reading genesis 1:6-8 . The upper layer of water was above the firmament also called heaven....verse 14, lights were made in the firmament re Heaven we see between the waters above and below. So these waters were above the moon. Is water above the lights in the state of vapor, ice or just water splashing around? And you wonder why the gravitational pull didn't bring it to earth? Why are Satellites not crashing to earth, clearly below the moon? Weren't these waters above? And you know for a fact the temp is 32 degrees and above ..above the stars, moon etc? And also a gravitational pull so strong it would bring water, ice vapor to earth, but not the very moon itself?
---kathr4453 on 9/27/14


We also need to see in scripture concerning water, that God could part it, and Jesus could walk on it.

We see in Revelation a sea of Glass like crystal. Also in the New heaven and earth, the end of Revelation says there is no more sea. Also no more moon or sun.

For all we know there is another sea of water separating God's throne from earth, not needed in the New heavens and earth. At that time man will live for eternity without any sun or moon, or sea, no radiation necessary, but the radiation of the GLORY of GOD more radiant than we can wrap our minds around won't interfere with SIZE AGE OR DECOMPOSITION. PRAISE GOD.
---kathr453 on 9/27/14


Leon, please explain why Genesis 1:6.7 must be taken only as describing a water canopy above the earth.

I repeat, you may be right (I dont know), but I believe we should not be dogmatic as to what these particular verses mean. Relevantly Psalm 148:4 says "Praise him you highest heavens, and you waters above the skies."

This of course is long post-flood. How do you explain this?

BTW I mentioned Calvin not because his view is above yours or mine but to show genuine Christians have different views upon these verses. Other creationist Christians who believe as does Calvin include Leupold, and Keil and Delitzsch. This does not mean they are right or wrong but that they hold a different view.
---Warwick on 9/27/14


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Kathr: I'm still waiting for your explanation of why gravity was missing before the flood. This should be good!


---jerry6593 on 9/27/14


//Genesis 1:6-7 says, God created a canopy of water over the earth. This canopy would've increased the air pressure & oxygen levels of earth as well as blocked out ultraviolet light, & thereby increased the overall longevity of mankind by making the earth like one giant hyperbaric chamber.//

Leon,
there is no need to throw stones at someone who answers kindly to you. Just say you agree or disagree.
I also disagree with what you said. The Bible mentions no canopy in the beginning. Or does it mention anything as to how they lived longer then us. Why not just go by what the Bible says, and trust in that? Our life span is shorter because of God. And they lived longer because God allowed them to live longer.
---Luke on 9/27/14


In an attempt to speak for all Bible-believing Christians, obviously what Warwick really means is "he" has different views (opinions) regardless of what the Bible plainly says. But, Warwick isn't convinced. He feels Genesis 1:6-7 doesn't adequately explain the pre-flood atmospheric conditions to the lofty level of his personal enlightenment & scientifically exacting specifications.

For some reason Warwick thinks the words of Calvin & "others" supersede the inspired Word of God? In Warwick's world, what Genesis 1:6-7 says just doesn't hold water to his pseudo-scientific, cloudy opinions! With certainty, He makes that point very clear.
---Leon on 9/26/14


Leon wrote "Genesis 1:6-7 says, God created a canopy of water over the earth." Bible-believing Christians have different views on this and there is not enough Biblical evidence for us to be dogmatic about it. Calvin, and others, for example believed God was referring to clouds.

Leon also wrote "Organisms grew larger & lived longer as a result." That Megga Fauna existed in the past is not the point. The point is: is there any scientific evidence to show that the environmental conditions which produced Megga Fauna also caused humans to live 900+ years? I see no connection and know of no such scientific evidence.

Anyone wanting to discuss this should stick to the point
---Warwick on 9/26/14


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//Meat is something only those who have teeth can eat//

True dat. Dogs have teeth too. Some use them to bite the Hand that feeds them.

//And God forbid God throws it on the ground for us to scavenger through to eat//

Nobody said throwing...Nobody eats without some crumbs falling...I will not feed my dog from the table but I will 'accidentally' drop some...Some dogs are good vacuums...Some bark at dust balls and miss out on the choice crumbs before the master cleans.

God forbid should i let another to return to a mess without offering the tasty vitals.

Matt 15:22-28 seemingly small portion...very filling.
---aka on 9/26/14


I would like to butt in as well.


Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Meat is something only those who have teeth can eat. And God forbid God throws it on the ground for us to scavenger through to eat.

It's GOD who feeds us meat out of His own hand.
---Anonymous on 9/26/14


All is to Gods glory.
---chria9396 on 9/26/14

please forgive me for butting in. i wanted to say something before you all left again.

i am really in deep gratitude that

char has skillfully dropped many scraps from the table and

trav has likewise willfully let good meat fall to the ground.

chria, thank you for sharing generously as i needed.
---aka on 9/26/14


Thanks Trav.
There was a time I purposely did not read many of your posts....
---chria9396 on 9/26/14

You've blessed me this morning.
In the book of my life... can't rewrite it so...i turn the page....and consider to improve the next one.
Detested the guy/cust that provoked me enough to try and prove his scriptures wrong in scripture. Dearly miss, pray for and regard him thoughtfully now.
Realize I provoke (some/many)....and my dearest hope is to provoke enough to ones self discovery of the witnesses GOD provides. Sad for me to be disliked, but the small price is worth any finding truth.
Being only a man...forgive the pages in my book that hurt, or were written in shallow consideration of ________.
---Trav on 9/26/14


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..."God is not afraid of scientific discovery. God, the ultimate scientist, the one who created gravity, oxygen H2O etc, is revealing Himself through science as well...read Romans 1-2. Those who lived at that time only needed to LOOK at [observe] CREATION...not read about it."---kathr4453 on 9/26/14

Absolutely true (FACT) Kathr! Science is the intellectual & practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure & behavior of the physical & natural world through observation & experience thru examination. God definitely tells us in Romans 1 thru 2 that He has given us all individual conSCIENCE to observe (look at) & experience (discover) Him & His creation.
---Leon on 9/26/14


---Trav on 9/17/14

from closed blog Having Gods Approval, a response to post on closed blog Christ Shed His Blood

Thanks Trav.
There was a time I purposely did not read many of your posts, thinking some to be attacks and therefore not in love. My apologies. However, some things you've shared have pointed. Searching, if so, and dismissing some previously taught stuff. I cannot erase former posts, some silly, but hope is in Truth. All is to Gods glory.
---chria9396 on 9/26/14


Exactly correct Warwick, the oxygen levels before the flood were lower, creation scientists have stated, leading to healthier lives, as your quoted Russian scientists have discovered.

Isn't this fun? You quoting Russian scientists? But because it's not spelled out in specifics in scripture, should we discard what these scientists have found?

God is not afraid of scientific discovery. God, the ultimate scientists, the one who created gravity, oxygen H2O etc, is revealing Himself through science as well. Just because man is still in discovery mode, learning new things every day, shows God is not afraid of science.

Just read Romans 1-2. Those who lived at that time only needed to LOOK at CREATION...not read about it. .
---kathr4453 on 9/26/14


National Geographic, 1970's did an article one month on the oldest person to that date, a woman well over 100 WAY over 100, who lived high in the mountain ranges in Russia. What was humorous was she smoked 3 packs of cigarettes a day and a drank a fifth of vodka a day. HUMMMM, they asked and wonder, what then contributed to this longevity of life? AWWWW the higher you are on a mountain, the less oxygen....also un polluted air. She nor those in that so called tribe of people were vegetarians either. But no processed foods were part of the diet either.

Those who cook know bread using yeast does not rise at the same rate high in the mountains as those below sea level have issues as well. Something too about the barometric pressure.
---Kath445 on 9/26/14


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Kathr: You may not know this, but ice is heavier than air and tends to fall to the earth - as in snow and hail. In your ice-cap theory, how do you explain the absence of gravity before the flood? Or do you think the ice was in orbital rings like Saturn?


---jerry6593 on 9/26/14


Kath, I have refrained from conversing with you having found it unpleasant and unproductive. However as you have asked a question I will answer it.

I wrote "I have not heard of any scientific evidence which supports your view." His answer did not provide scientific evidence, only an interpretation of Genesis 1:6,7.

Further there is no proof that high oxygen levels would lengthen life-spans. In fact a 8th of March 2003 article in New Scientist 2003 discusses the evidence, and the rationale, that low oxygen levels may actually have health benefits.

The Russians have used intermittent low-oxygen therapy for years to treat conditions like asthma, heart disease and chemotherapy toxicity.
---Warwick on 9/26/14


Those who don't believe in a world wide flood would not believe the whole earth was, in the outer heaven completely surrounded by ICE that on a certain day, God opened the heavens and the whole earth was submerged with the ice that melted called rain. Many planets today are surrounded by ice. Saturn for one. Yes, the rings are ICE.

Warwick, I don't understand why you have a problem with what Leon has said.

That water, aka a canopy, is GONE today. If the weight of the water on earth changed the pressure on the earth, creation scientists say heated the earth as well, changing the typography, why not that same pressure when over the earth. We all know the barometric pressure changes based on clouds, rain, seasons etc.
---kathr4453 on 9/25/14


70% of today's oxygen comes from the ocean. The ocean is much larger than it was before the flood.

Certainly the oxygen levels have changed from before the flood to after.

There are so many factors we know from scientific FACTS. Is chemistry considered a science? YES.

Mix vinegar with baking soda. There is a scientific explanation why it foams up and rises quickly. These FACTS do not in any way interfere with God's word.
---kathr453 on 9/25/14


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Leon, fortunately the Bible is not a human scientific textbook which continually change as new evidence contradicts that which came before.

What Scripture says is not scientific evidence in the way "evidence" is used scientifically. Scripture is far above that as it is God's Truth, not man's changing beliefs.

There may have been a vapour canopy (and it may have produced the conditions you write of) but Genesis 1:6,7 can be interpreted differently. Conversely that Jesus rose from the dead is a fact because the word of the perfect God who makes no mistakes and does not lie repeatedly and plainly says so. However the canopy idea is not clearly and repeatedly spelled out. What you believe is an inference.
---Warwick on 9/25/14


Internet creation scientist (CS) say some other scientist object strongly to using Scripture to gain scientific insight into the natural world. CS agree the Bible isn't a science text, yet they believe there are several clear lines of evidence the Bible is God's Word. If God's word is truly inspired [and it is], it speaks accurately to all areas of knowledge: historical, political /economic, sociological, & scientific.

Genesis 1:6-7 says, God created a canopy of water over the earth. This canopy would've increased the air pressure & oxygen levels of earth as well as blocked out ultraviolet light, & thereby increased the overall longevity of mankind by making the earth like one giant hyperbaric chamber.
---Leon on 9/25/14


Leon, you may be correct however I have not heard of any scientific evidence which supports your view. Certainly the fossil record (mostly formed at the time of the flood of Noah) shows many creatures far larger than their descendants today. However animals growing especially large does not mean they lived longer does it. And how are mega fauna connected to humans living 900 years?
---Warwick on 9/23/14


OLD HUMANS BEFORE THE FLOOD CONTD:
"Is it not likely that the early inhabitants on earth lived to vast ages because God gave them this great life-expectancy?

I do not doubt that the early earth, its pure air, and produce were vastly better than that which we have today but I do not see this being what allowed them to live 900+ years."
---Warwick on 9/22/14


Scientific evidence shows the atmosphere covering the early earth was very different from today. Back then the entire earth enjoyed a warm tropical environment & there was enhanced oxygen in the atmosphere. Organisms grew larger & lived longer as a result.
---Leon on 9/23/14


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Is it not more likely that pre-flood people lived for many hundreds of years because God decreed that they would?

Or may it not also be that the compounding nature of the curse, which came by Adam's sin, had not caused people's DNA to degrade to the point it did later, and continues to do?

I do not doubt that the beneficial life-extending power of natural food and a pollution free environment was beneficial but not to the extent of extending life to hundreds of years.
---Warwick on 9/23/14


I recently spoke with several JWs. I asked why they have a creature, an angel, as a Creator. They denied this. I read John 1:3 and Colossians 1:15-18. 'By him' all things came into existence. They argued that 'by' does not mean 'as a result of'. I responded: I give you, my builder, a million dollars to build my house. By you, my house has been created. You, my builder,are the creator. Ditto and angel is the creator of the universe, according to the JWs.

Pure Platonic paganism!
---Marc on 9/22/14


OLD HUMANS BEFORE THE FLOOD CONT'D:
"Leon..how did I know that? Read Gen 1:29,30.mans original diet was fruits only.
Gen 1:30 green herbs of the fields are vegetables.
After man sinned, he was allowed to eat the herb of the field ( vegetables )
After the flood, vegetables n clean meat without blood & fat were added to mans diet..Gen 9:3,4. Meat was an emergency food, not a permanent part of the diet." [HUH?!]
---Jasper on 9/22/14


Emergency food?!!! Bible chapter & verse please.
---Leon on 9/22/14


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