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Is God Immortal

If God is immortal, how could He have died?

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 ---1stcliff on 9/23/14
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'My sons are of the same substance as me, and are equal to me'- Warwick.

This is Plato's pagan Greek philosophy of metaphysics- things of the same substance and nature are equal. Trinitarians use this Hellenic philosophy to explain away their pagan trinity dogma- 'Jesus is Son of God, therefore he must be God'.

Take away Hellenic Neo-Platonic philosophy, and the Bible speaks for itself- Jesus is the 'Son of God'. My sons are younder than me. Jesus is younger than his Father.

Hebrews 4:14 quoted by Warwick therefore means what it says, that Jesus the Son of God is our 'high priest' and mediator between us and Jehovah God. The mediator is not also the ones being mediated... thats a contradiction in terms.
---David8318 on 10/3/14


'The Father want you to honor His Son Jesus by acknowledging Jesus is God'- MarkEaton.

No, Jesus is not God. I honour Jesus by recognising him as the son of God, the Messiah, my saviour and redeemer and as discussed here as my high priest and King.

No where does the Bible say that Jesus is God as you claim.
---David8318 on 10/2/14


We don't have to be there to see how Jesus defended himself against the Jews false claim of equality with God at John 5:19.
---David8318 on 10/2/14

John 5:23 " that all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him"

I do not see you giving honor to Jesus, only His Father.

To correctly honor Jesus:

Phil. 2:11 "and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is LORD, to the glory of God the Father".

LORD in the above verse being kyrios, the same word used in Matt 4:7 a quote of Deut 6:16.

The Father want you to honor His Son Jesus by acknowledging Jesus is God.
---Mark_Eaton on 10/2/14


'Was He a little ba ba?... Does He have hinges?'- Warwick.

Who said Jesus does? I didn't. This is Warwick grasping at staws. Jesus is the 'lamd of God'. Warwick would rather say 'God the Lamb'.

Yes Jesus is the door to heaven. Warwick would rather say, 'God the door'. More titles for Warwick to twist around his pagan trinity dogma.

Jesus is high priest, not 'God the high priest'. God is high priest to nobody. The temple in Israel was a shadow of the reality. The Aaronic priesthood represented the Israelites before God in the Most Holy.

The office of high priest is seperate from those being mediated... obviously! Jesus our high priest is obviously not the God or the people he is mediating!
---David8318 on 10/2/14


Dogs beget dogs, not cats. Redwoods beget redwoods, not lilies. Like can only beget like.
Jesus is God's only begotten. God begets God, not an angel, as David and Scott want you to believe.

The Watchtower's theology is novel and ultimately just pagan.
---marc on 10/2/14




Warwick, Scripture says "No one has ever seen God" and "No one can see God and live" so Jesus could not have been suggesting to Philip that he was the Father, Almighty God"
If you read it with some degree of understanding you see he was suggesting and absolute "look alike"
They didn't need to see God if they've seen Him!
---1stcliff on 10/2/14


Amen Glory to GOD.

Heb 4:14
Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 10/2/14


\\The early Church unambiguously understood Jesus as uncreated and thus the Creator because through him all things came into existence.\\

To be precise, the Logos/Son was not created, but begotten of the Father in eternity.

In time, He took flesh of the Virgin Mary and was known as Jesus.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/1/14


David, where did I say high priest was a figure of speech?

Jesus is called God the Son, Saviour, Redeemer, the Alpha and the Omega, the Messiah, Mighty God, Lord, I am, He in whom all the fullness of God dwells bodily, and Our great High Priest. Does any of the above stop Him from being one or all of the others David? Please answer!

Now you have it right, there is only one mediator between God and man the man Jesus Christ. And he born Son of Mary.

Again you are correct it is Jesus who Stephen sees revealed in heaven as God. That Jesus is High Priest is a title, that He is God speaks to Him being God in essence.
---Warwick on 10/2/14


'My sons are of the same substance as me, and are equal to me'.

Equal in age Warwick? Wow... you do have a strange family!

Your sons are not you are they Warwick? That would be even stranger! Unless of course you are a scizophrenic.

Let me guess Warwick... your sons are younger than you? Am I correct? Mine are younger than me.

Jesus, the son of God is also younger than his Father. Apostate Jews like trinitarians draw wrong conclusions about Jesus. We don't have to be there to see how Jesus defended himself against the Jews false claim of equality with God at John 5:19. If you had been there Warwick you would have agreed with those apostate Jews!
---David8318 on 10/2/14




Cliff 'Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, Show us the Father?"
John 14:8,9.

Who is Jesus calling Himself Cliff?
---Warwick on 10/1/14


---David8318 on 9/30/14

You are absolutely correct. ~We cannot agree~. //

That is why few can agree with what the WTS says, but people like you. half-quotes and misguidance is your only hope.

it is one thing to be factually mistaken and another to be purposefully deceitful.
---aka on 10/1/14


David you believe Jesus being called our High Priest means He cannot also be God, however Hebrews 4:14 shows otherwise "..we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession."

The figure of speech "Son of God" is not used to suggest Jesus was born from God as men are born from their mothers but to show they are of the one substance. My sons are of the same substance as me, and are equal to me. When Jesus called Himself "the Son of God" His hearers tried to kill Him. He asked, why do you want to kill me and they replied "because you a mere man claim to be God." Were you there David? Do you know better than these hostile witnesses?
---Warwick on 10/1/14


"Gnosticism was concerned with a Demiurge (an inferior heavenly being) who fashioned the world and humanity. A redeemer came from the divine world to reveal the way of escape. [They had a] sense of alienation from the world." (Backgrounds of Early Christianity)
Familiar, David and Scott?!

JWs live to accuse Trinitarians of borrowing pagan ideas. However, the historical reality (you know, the one existing independently from Brooklyn's dishonest "research") is the opposite. The early Church unambiguously understood Jesus as uncreated and thus the Creator because through him all things came into existence. If Brooklyn is correct we should be polytheists because polytheism believes in the existence of more than 1 god.
---Marc on 10/1/14


'irrelevant... figures of speech'- Warwick.

Warwick obviously views Jesus' office as high priest as an 'irrelevant figure of speech'. In essence, Warwick wants to downplay what the Bible teaches about Jesus' heavenly role as high priest because it doesn't fit with his pagan Egyptian trinity dogma. The high priest both on earth and now in heaven was not God, but mediated between man and God. As 1Tim.2:5 says,

'For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus'.

Warwick will soon view Jesus as a figure of speech!

Stephen does not equate the high priest with the Father- Acts 7:55, Heb.8:1. The high priest was not equal to God- not in earthly or heavenly Jerusalem- Heb.12:22
---David8318 on 10/1/14


\\Also, God dying for God is not a reconciliation! \\

No one but you said that God died for God.

The God-man died for all humanity.

But since spiritual things are spiritually discerned, you will never be able to understand this as long as you belong to the apostate Babylonian Watchtower organization.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/1/14


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Cliff, so you imagine if we x-rayed God the Spirit we would see His human brain? Now why didn't I think of that?
---Warwick on 10/1/14


Trinitarians do not believe a redeemer can come from God's creation and teach creation is beyond redemption.
---David8318 on 9/30/14

"You are absolutely correct"- MarkEaton 10/1/14.

Confirmation Mark agrees the trinity provides no redemption for creation.

MarkE even says, 'Only God dying... could reconcile us to God'.

God is eternal & cannot die. Also, God dying for God is not a reconciliation! Where do trinitarians get this apostate propaganda from!

Jehovah God's son Jesus Christ died and now acts as our high priest, mediating the new covenant between us and God.

Stephen confirmed Jesus is in this position as high priest when he saw Jesus at God's right hand!- Acts 7:55, Heb.8:1.
---David8318 on 10/1/14


The subtleties of language are lost on you David. You do not understand figures of speech. Jesus was called the "lamb of God." Was He a little ba ba? Jesus called Himself "the door" John 10:7. Does He have hinges, or are the above figures of speech which have meaning to those who understand? When Stephen said He saw Jesus in heaven standing in the place of power and equality, it was to them blasphemy and they killed Stephen because of these words. You would have missed the point!

In John ch.10 Jesus called God His Father, that He was God's Son, His listeners knew He was calling Himself God so they endeavoured to kill Him for blasphemy, however they could not as His time had not come.
---Warwick on 10/1/14


Trinitarians do not believe a redeemer can come from God's creation and teach creation is beyond redemption.
---David8318 on 9/30/14

You are absolutely correct. We cannot agree.

God could only reconcile mankind unto himself with a redeemer that was God. A created being would not be God and therefore not able to reconcile us to God.

Only God dying and including us into the Trinitarian life of God could reconcile us to God.

This is the essence of understanding the atonement.
---Mark_Eaton on 10/1/14


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'I have explained'- Warwick.

Warwick has explained nothing and believes Stephen saw Jesus 'in heaven' as God. Really? Stephen saw two God's standing next to eachother? Trinitarian polytheist apostasy!

What Stephen saw was his high priest, Jesus Christ, standing at the right hand of God. As Hebrews 8:1 says,

'We do have such a high priest (Christ), who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven' (NIV).

Stephen saw not two God's, but saw his high priest Christ 'standing at God's right hand'- Acts 7:55.

Warwick's false trinity rantings says Jesus is not the high priest... but another polytheist 'God'! There is no salvation through the trinity!
---David8318 on 10/1/14


Warwick,Let's approach this from a different angle,
The vital part of any creature or being is it's brain.
Bird,fish,animal human or spirit being!It contains the personality of every creature.
If we took an x-ray of you and I side by side there would be no anatomical difference. The difference is our thinking,motivation ,personality ..what makes you, you and me me!
The body houses this personality..every day we shed millions of cells and millions of new ones are produced...cont
---1stcliff on 10/1/14


1STCLIFF: In my opinion, your perception of John 3:13 KJV is physical & not spiritual.
What rendering of this verse do we have in Greek & Hebrew?
---Adetunji on 10/1/14


I doubt whether you understand what being high priest means neither do you understand what atonement means.
---David8318 on 9/29/14

You've made some established points in scripture. Would post some additional to groundwork you pointed too.
Only one people had the Law. Only one people needed redeemed for covenant broken. And is why this is the people mentioned in all scripture.
For a debate to have merit, one must first note the position of the people being spoken too, honoring the spokespersons GOD chose personally. The prophets, and their fulfillment.
Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites, to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises,
---Trav on 9/30/14


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Cliff you either do not read Scripture, do not understand it or choose to ignore it, preferring your ideas.

As has been pointed out to you Hebrews ch.1 reveals Jesus The Son of God, while ch.2 reveals Jesus the Son of Man, born of Mary, whose flesh was given to us upon the cross.

Did not the coming Messiah say a body had been prepared for Him? Does this not tell us that the body (Son of Man) and the Spirit (Son of God) are not one and the same 'substance'? One is flesh, the other is Spirit, and God is Spirit not flesh. As has been said over and over Jesus is fully God (Spirit) and fully man (flesh).

I am sure you cannot understand the depth of this and probably believe you have to understand something for it to be real?
---Warwick on 10/1/14


Atatunji, There are many spurious passages in the KJV and you obviously are quoting one here(Jn.3.13) NIV does not say "who is in heaven" which would be ridiculous as He was right there speaking ! That's not "spiritual" thinking , it's foolish !
---1stcliff on 10/1/14


David, what you have written is irrelevant, as I have explained.

How can Jesus be a created being? "For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together." Colossians 1:15.

As Creator of everything He was obviously before all things. Do you say He made Himself?

"in Him all things (ie. the whole of Creation) hold together!" Are you saying an angel holds all things together-nonsense!

Stephen saw Him portrayed in heaven, as God.
---Warwick on 9/30/14


Cliff 'Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, Show us the Father?"
John 14:8,9.

Who is Jesus calling Himself Cliff?
---Warwick on 9/30/14


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'Because of the position He took on earth'- Warwick.

Jesus' resurrected position in heaven is as our high priest. Jesus has entered the Most Holy 'not with blood of goats and calves, but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption' (Heb.9:11,12 NIV).

And the real poke in the eye for Satan and trinitarians is that our supreme high priest Jesus Christ is a created being. A created being sent us into sin (Adam)- now we have a created being taking us out of sin through his office of high priest. How great is that! (1Cor.15:45)

Trinitarians do not believe a redeemer can come from God's creation and teach creation is beyond redemption.
---David8318 on 9/30/14


after all who was running things when Jesus was in the womb of Mary? or lying in the manger ?
---1stcliff on 9/30/14

Are you saying that The Father really runs the show and that Jesus is a figurehead?

Are you saying that Act 17:28 does not apply to Jesus? If so, then consider Col. 1:17 or Heb. 1:3.

Are you saying that the Acts 17:28 only applies to Jesus when He is an alive adult?

Or are you saying that the trinity works cooperatively together and shares all things in the oneness of their relationship?
---Mark_Eaton on 9/30/14


1stcliff: //after all who was running things when Jesus was in the womb of Mary? or lying in the manger ?//

The mental picture that you have of Jesus is that of a normal human being like you.
NO, HE is more than that.
Who told you that HE cannot be in more than one place at a time?
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven (KJV).
Note the last phrase of that verse, HE was speaking on the earth at the same time present in heaven.
---Adetunji on 9/30/14


//We also point out that only the Death of GOD could atone for all the sins of mankind. Also only one is both GOD and man can serve forever as our High Priest.//

Samuel,
Get it right, God never died. He cannot die. He is Spirit. Jesus the human being in the flesh died. God did not die. He is eternal.
---Luke on 9/30/14


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Mark Eaton, It doesn't really boggle my mind, when Jesus died His father was still alive (immortal) and is more than capable of running the universe ! after all who was running things when Jesus was in the womb of Mary? or lying in the manger ?
---1stcliff on 9/30/14


David Jesus is given all those names/titles/descriptions with which God Almighty is described. He is therefore God, the uncreated Creator of everything ever Created.

Because of the position He took on earth, the work He did, He is also given names etc which are not used of Almighty God.


---Warwick on 9/29/14


'descriptions... given to God'- Warwick.

But never is God called high priest or mediator. Only Jesus is called high priest and mediator- Heb.8:6 & 9:15.

Christ is our high priest mediating between God and man as the high priest was to the Israelites at the temple in Jerusalem.

If God is his own high priest, why was there a need for a high priest in Israel or today? (Gal.3:20).

The office of high priest is seperate from those being mediated... obviously! Jesus our high priest is obviously not the God or the people he is mediating!

Warwick's diabolic trinitarian "Jesus is God" pagan propaganda is apostate and antichrist.
---David8318 on 9/29/14


Warwick, your pagan trinity has direct links to ancient Egyptian trinities which have nothing to do with the Bible. Jesus is high priest mediating the new covenant between man and Jehovah God- Heb.9:12.

Yes Jesus is our redeemer, saviour and First and last in terms of the resurrection. But he is not the creator! How can the creator also be the high priest? There is no need for a high priest to mediate if Jesus is also God! You make a mockery of the office of high priest with your pagan trinity.

Of course we see the Father when we look at Jesus! Who else do you think Jesus represented!?

But you do believe there are three God's Warwick- your'e the trinitarian! Chriatians believe only in one God- Jehovah (YHWH Deut.6:4).
---David8318 on 9/29/14


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Adetunji- there is something I notice about you trinitarians. When you're forced into a corner by clear scriptural reasoning (ie. how can God be his own high priest?) you run from discussing or answering the issue like a stabbed rat.

You adetunji like your trinitarian cohorts are blimkered into a narrow-minded mentality of seeing the Bible only through the distorted lens of the pagan trinity. When put under scriptural scrutiny, as you demonstrate, it just does not stack up.

God is not high priest to himself. Jesus is our high priest representing us before God. I doubt whether you understand what being high priest means neither do you understand what atonement means. You are truly lost!
---David8318 on 9/29/14


Here is something else to boggle your mind, 1stCliff

In Jesus, everything in the cosmos has its being, its movement, and its life (Acts 17:28). Jesus created and sustains every organism and every planet and sun, every person and every plant.

Yet, when Jesus died the cosmos did not die and the cosmos did not stop.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/29/14


Warwick, The scripture says no one has ever seen God, plus No man can see God and live !
Jesus was the exact image of His father so Jesus could rightly say "If you've seen me you've seen the father".
My aunt said to me "Joe (my dad) will never be dead as long as you're alive".
I am an exact replica.
You're trying to "fix" scripture to make it fit your theology, right?
---1stcliff on 9/29/14


Warwick , There was nothing deceitful in my post, You come up with this ..only the man part died not the God part?? (can God be fractions)
There's something wrong with your math...If Jesus was 100% man He could not even be 1 % something else. Nothing can be more than 100% of itself, otherwise it's not 100 %!
Are you suggesting 50% father and 50% son? but that wouldn't work for trinity , so you must be saying 33 1/3 % of the Godhead died ? Is this it?
---1stcliff on 9/29/14


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As Seventh day Adventist we teach a lot on the Sanctuary and not only how it works but all about it.

We also point out that only the Death of GOD could atone for all the sins of mankind. Also only one is both GOD and man can serve forever as our High Priest.

The Earthly High Priest acted for GOD. Now GOD acts for Himself.

The Bible shows us the trinity so that is why we believe it.
---Samuelbb7 on 9/29/14


Cliff 'Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, Show us the Father?"
John 14:8,9.

Who is Jesus calling Himself Cliff?
---Warwick on 9/29/14


David8318

There is a tendency that I see in JW/WTS people, i.e. you believe only what your cult teachers/JW-"Bible" tells you, not what God/Jesus says or said.

We Christians "Trinitarians" (as you call us) have something you do not have, a right which is also yours but you do not seem to use.
We communicate with the Lord and HE hears us and answers us.

Do you use this right?
Do you know God/Jesus as your No:1 Father?
Do you talk to Him and receive replies from Him?
Do you ask Him to educate you on things relevant to you that you need to understand?
---Adetunji on 9/29/14


Cliff, I have quoted:

Hebrews 10:10 "And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

And "The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23)-Jesus the Son of Man paid the price."

I have explained (via Hebrews ch.1 and 2) that Jesus is fully man (who died) and fully God who cannot die, but you write "You say Jesus was God and He died!" Yes you knowingly write deceit!
---Warwick on 9/29/14


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'do you believe this statement & the ONE who made it?'- adetunji.

Do you believe Jesus is our high priest who makes atonement for our sins before the presence of God? Do you understand what atonement means?

As in the temple arrangement of Israel, the high priest would make a blood sacrifice for the sins of the people and present the value of that sacrifice- the blood- before God in the Most Holy compartment.

Jesus as our high priest presents his sacrifice before God, and obtains an everlasting deliverance for us- Heb.9:12.

God is not our high priest. The high preist represents people in the presence of God. Jesus cannot be high priest if he is also supposed to be the God he is "high priesting" for!!
---David8318 on 9/29/14


Warwick, I write deceitful nonsense?
When Jesus asked the disciples "Who do you say I am?" Which one answered correctly "you are God"? None !
They knew him intimately walking side by side for 3 1/2 years. Ah .. but you know Him better huh?
If you were one of them, there at that time, your answer would have been false !
Best we stick with truth !
Jesus did not play head games with them !
---1stcliff on 9/29/14


The High Priest in the Old Testament represented GOD.

JESUS in the New Testament is GOD. Which is why we only have one high priest.


JESUS is:


Rev 1:8

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Some teach a petty little god who is upset by the wrong use of a few words or actions. They condemn millions to torture for all eternity because the little petty god they teach is too small to overlook some minor problems.
---Samuelbb7 on 9/28/14


David, the paganism is in your mind, clouded by WTS indoctrination.

In Scripture Jesus is called The Creator, who existed before all Creation, The Rock, Saviour, Redeemer, the First and the Last, all descriptions/titles/names given to God.

In John 14:8 Phillip asked to see the Father and Jesus answered "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, "Show us the Father?"'

You would have us believe there are three God's but Jesus here says there is one, the only visual physical representation of whom is Jesus. But anyone who rejects the personhood of the Holy Spirit will not understand as these matters are spiritually discerned.
---Warwick on 9/28/14


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'Yes, He is'- cluny.

The fact that Jesus is our high priest and therefore cannot be the God Jesus is officiating is something cluny is unable to discern. Spiritual matters are discerned by spiritual people. The high priest in Israel was not God. The high priest officiated sacrifices on behalf of the nation of Israel in the presence of God in the Most Holy.

Israel's temple arrangement was a shadow of the reality- the reality being Christ's sacrifice and his subsequent role as our high priest described in Hebrews.

Jesus is not the God he is officiating. It is non-sensical to think Jesus is also the God he is high priest for. Trinitarians cluny and Warwick just haven't thought their pagan trinity through.
---David8318 on 9/28/14


Cliff, as usual you write deceitful nonsense.

I have shown Jesus is fully God (Hebrews ch.1) immortal spirit, (therefore cannot be a blood sacrifice) and also fully man (Hebrews ch.2). And that Hebrews 2 says it was the Son of Man (human) who died and rose again physically, by the power of God "that he might make atonement for the sins of the people."

And "The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23)-Jesus the Son of Man paid the price."

And Hebrews 10:10 "And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

But after this you write "You say Jesus was God and He died!"
---Warwick on 9/28/14


aka, If I had reached "absolute truth" I would not still be searching !
Even faith needs a solid foundation.
God did not preserve an "original" manuscript.
Of those that are extant, there are no two identical.
So which bible today is perfect?
Is every word "God breathed"?
---1stcliff on 9/28/14


Is it because "everybody does"?---1stcliff

Truth is contained in the law and prophets and not precepts of man.

You say that the truth you derive from a volume of books that are not all inspired is the absolute truth? Where is the logic of that?

lPsalms 119:134

Deliver me from the oppression of man: so will I keep thy precepts.

Luke 16:15

And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men, but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
---aka on 9/27/14


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aka, Personal question, if you will .
There are 66 books in the standard protestant bible. What is your personal reason for believing that every book,chapter and verse is "God inspired"regardless of who wrote it?
Is it because "everybody does"?
---1stcliff on 9/27/14


The Lord Jesus said, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death" John 8:51.

David8318, do you believe this statement & the ONE who made it?
---Adetunji on 9/27/14


\\Neither is Jesus as our high priest, 'God'.\\

Yes, He is.

As St. Thomas told the risen Savior, "My Lord and my GOD!"

Jesus never rebuked him.

Glory to our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/27/14


Jesus is not Almighty God, but our high priest providing redemption- Heb.2:17 (NIV).

The temple arrangement in Israel with its high priest was a 'shadow' of the office of high priest Jesus Christ would perform on his return to God in heaven. Just as Israel's high priest presented himself to God on atonement day, so to does Jesus our high priest.

Israel's high priest was not God. The high priest presented himself before God in the Most Holy. Neither is Jesus as our high priest, 'God'. As Hebrews 9:12 says,

'(Christ came as high priest and entered)... the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption'- Heb.9:12.

Warwick's pagan trinity dogma negates Jesus' redemptive office of high priest.
---David8318 on 9/27/14


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//This has nothing to do with JW theology, but just plain scripture,// cliff

i appreciate that. but, the Lord's scripture is from Gen 1:1 to Rev 22:21. a volume of books that is somewhat changed to support man's take and not the Lord's truth. and, if you reject paul's/luke's teachings and others, you are not talking about any scripture of which i know.

you join a group of many people at least 90%. however, identification of who the One Christ (messiah) is to what life boils. because, scripturally speaking, it is His identification of you that will matter Mat_7:23 and not his remembrance of you.

Rom 9:15

Rom 9:18
---aka on 9/27/14


Yes JESUS is man and GOD. So what we need to understand is that man died not GOD.

So that is why JESUS could say He will resurrect himself.


John 2:19

Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

Only GOD has the power to resurrect the dead.


John 6:40

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

GOD is our only savior. Jude 1:25 Titus 3:4, Isaiah 43:3


Isaiah 45:15

Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.
---Samuelbb7 on 9/27/14


'As I have pointed out Scripture says Jesus is... the Son of God, therefore God'.

Scripture does not say this.

'Scripture (e.g. Hosea 11:9) makes it clear God is not man, not flesh'.

Absolutely. God has never been flesh. However, his son became manifest in the flesh.

'As Hebrews ch.1, and 2 show Jesus is both God, and man'.

Hebrews does not teach this at all. If it did it would contradict what the Bible says at Hosea 11:9.

Hebrews 1 & 2 teaches the relationship between God and Jesus- Father and son. Jesus also becomes our high priest (Heb.2:17,18). Jesus becoming high priest makes no sense if he is already God!
---David8318 on 9/27/14


Warwick/aka, This has nothing to do with JW theology, but just plain scripture,
Bible says "God is immortal" (can not die)
You say Jesus was God and He died!
Obviously you do not believe simple ,logical, scripture !
God says He has a "Son" He is not His own Son...how bizarre!
---1stcliff on 9/27/14


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//Warwick, I don't have issues with those scriptures,it's quite plain that Jesus,Son of man /Son of God, died//

1Cliff, you do admit Jesus is the Son of Man, and the Son of God. You get that. Now how can the Son of God die? He is of the same deity as God if He is the Son of God. Does God's deity die? He is Spirit. The passages Warwick gave you are very good if you read them and understand them. But you do not want to, the reason you posted the blog. To argue against Jesus. It is the same teaching from the Jehovah Witnesses, and Mormons. They strip Jesus of His deity. You must be using their Bible and their Bible tools.
---Luke on 9/27/14


Cliff, I have found that it is pointless debating with you as you have ingrained JW indoctrination and will not see what Scripture says.

As I have pointed out Scripture says Jesus is both the Son of God, therefore God. And also the Son of Man therefore man.

Scripture (e.g. Hosea 11:9) makes it clear God is not man, not flesh.

As Hebrews ch.1, and 2 show Jesus is both God, and man. In His flesh Hebrews 2:17 he was able to die and rise again, physically, by the power of God "that he might make atonement for the sins of the people."

The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23) and Jesus the Son of Man paid the price.
---Warwick on 9/26/14


//I am not passing an opinion, just posting Scripture.//

i agree with you. i was talking about those who need to deny the spirit and related matters.

cliff is not a jw, but carries with him the theology of a jw. all in all it boils down to denying Jesus, the Alpha and Omega, as the Christ.
---aka on 9/26/14


Warwick, I don't have issues with those scriptures,it's quite plain that Jesus,Son of man /Son of God, died
It's you who claim that ,at the same time, He was "Almighty God the Father ! Who is immortal !
It doesn't work both ways !
---1stcliff on 9/26/14


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I am not passing an opinion, just posting Scripture. And again:

"that the Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men and be crucified and on the third day rise" Luke 24:7. Jesus, the son of Mary, of David, of Abraham, the man!

Mark 8:31 "And he began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes and be killed, and after three days rise again."

See also Matthew 16:21, Mark 9:31, 10:33, Luke 9:22, 22:69.

---Warwick on 9/25/14


Warwick, If you're saying that the body of Christ died while He remained alive (in spirit form) is to deny the "death" of Christ !
Think about it ,did He only half die?
No, He completely died, a 175 lb.s of bones and flesh did not secure our salvation.
The perfect person of Jesus Christ died, that was the "ransom" exacted for our eternal life !
Do you not understand that God (Christ's Father) Gave His Son on our behalf ?

It's not like an overcoat (body)that He took of and put on. That's not death!
---1stcliff on 9/25/14


//Do we follow opinion or Scripture? //

the opinion is not the issue. it is how the opinion is derived. twisting, ignoring, half-versing, one versing, unrelated versing, witness lacking, subterfuge, cherry picking...

trying to deny the spirit as a living entity is what you have to do to get this formula. all of the above is there.
---aka on 9/25/14


Do we follow opinion or Scripture?

Hebrews 10:5 'Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, "Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me."'

Verse 10 "And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

Hebrews 2:14 "Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil,'

Who died? Jesus the Son of Man.
---Warwick on 9/25/14


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!stCliff, spiritual things are spiritually discerned.

That's why I don't expect you to understand the words "borrowed death."

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/24/14


Cluny, Clear as mud !
** Borrowed death?**
Death is the cessation of life !
God never lost consciousness ,EVER,He's immortal ,scripture is emphatic about that !
You and Leon are talking about suspended animation (of the spirit) while the body died)This would be tantamount to a hoax !
It was not the sacrifice of Christ's body that saves mankind,His actual loss of life !
Jn.3.16 says God "GAVE" His Son, not his Son's body , or a pretense of dieing,but actual loss of life for three days !
---1stcliff on 9/24/14


The fleshly body of Jesus whom God dwelt in died. God The Spirit didn't.
---Lawrence on 9/24/14


Cliff: God is God! Unlike us, He has power that transcends death. Yes, God is definitely immortal.
---Leon on 9/24/14


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In the Incarnation, God borrowed something that is foreign to His nature, namely death.

Now do you understand?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/24/14


Warwick, What you're saying is ,, What died was a manufactured body ? created for the occasion !
---1stcliff on 9/24/14


//If God is immortal, how could He have died?//

1 Cliff, Where did you hear that God died? You are confused or you want to confuse others with your question.
I find no passage to that effect. I have found where Jesus died in the flesh. God is Spirit. And the Spirit of Christ never died. The Spirit of God was in Him. He was fully human, and fully God. Can you understand this things?
---Luke on 9/24/14


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