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 ---aka on 10/17/14
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"The Good News" according to Christian Zionists:

"Christian Zionism: The Most Virulent and Hatred Driven Heresy"- Dr. Jim West, Adjunct Professor of Biblical Studies:

"Christian Zionists, who speak...about love of Israel...are quicker to malign, misrepresent, and attempt to deceive concerning those with whom they disagree than Satan himself...

...It's best if some...dim Christian zionist tries to interact with you to ignore them and let them wallow in their own cesspool of vile Hagee-esque idiocy. They aren't interested in conversation [but] in hearing you say something which they can then distort...to demonize you and exalt their own heretical anti-christianity."
---scott on 10/30/14


"False witness [?]" Marc

Was Christian Zionist John Hagee (founder and National Chairman of the Christian-Zionist organization Christians United for Israel) lying when he said:

"Trying to convert Jews is a waste of time. Jews already have a covenant with God and that has never been replaced by Christianity"? (Hagee, Houston Chronicle, April 30, 1988, sec, 6, pg. 1)

Or that... "Poverty is a curse"? (Hagee, Praise-A-Thon broadcast, TBN, 4 Nov 1992). Matt 23:23, Luke 2:24, Leviticus 12:6-8

Did Christian Zionist Jerry Falwell not say that "the towels in Kenya have AIDS"?
---scott on 10/30/14


Now, what was that about JWs promoting a second creator called Michael the Archangel and by whose name all men are saved? ---marcon 10/30/14

From the official jw website:
"Likewise, the Bible indicates that Michael is another name for Jesus Christ, before and after his life on earth."

"Michael the great prince is none other than Jesus Christ Himself"- The Watchtower, Dec, 1984, p 29.
---aka on 10/30/14


Scott, once again, has sinned. In this continuing saga of his false witness against me, he has libelled me by claiming I believe Jews should not be evangelised. Well, Scott where have I ever said that?

And second, since I have lived twice in Israel and have many Jewish and Jewish Christian friends and have never held back from telling them the Good News, this makes you both a liar and a fool.

Now, what was that about JWs promoting a second creator called Michael the Archangel and by whose name all men are saved?
---marc on 10/30/14


Scott, Barclay again, the one who says the JW's have lied, in fact have him saying the opposite of what he meant. Barclay who says Jesus "is of the same stuff as God, that is of the same being as God, " Who else is of the same stuff and being as God, but God?

Tasker (Professor of NT Exegesis University of London) referring to John 1:1 says "The significance of this is that the Word does not by Himself make up the entire Godhead, nevertheless the divinity that belongs to the rest of the Godhead belongs also to Him." God is the Father and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. No one of them is God by Himself.
---Warwick on 10/30/14




Here Warwick puts himself in the camp with Marc who believes that Jews do not need to accept Jesus as the Messiah.
---scott on 10/29/14

and, not only "Jews" but anyone descending from Jacob.

how unfortunate...

but, at least, he is dodging the camp that says the Messiah is also called Michael the Archangel. just saying.


BTW...anyone's acceptance is useless not necessarily honored if the true Messiah does not accept that anyone in that day.
---aka on 10/29/14


hopefully one day you will have a deeper understanding of the end of Romans 8...
---kathr4453 on 10/29/14

And hopefully one day you will have a greater understanding of the heart of God.

As I have said, you know a lot about God but you do not truly know the Father.

The Father's love, mercy, and grace is not divided by His holiness, justice, and wrath. The Father does not have a split personality toward us. Jesus did not come to die to satisfy the Fathers need for punishment of sin.

Jesus is the revelation of God, the very being and nature of God. What we see in Jesus is that the Father has never and will never forsake us.
---Mark_Eaton on 10/29/14


Thanks Pat Robertson!-

Christian Zionist Pat Robertson says to be careful in Kenya because "the towels have AIDS."

Good to know.
---scott on 10/29/14


"Barclay...once again" Warwick

Argh. Sorry about using the population of the Americas rather that the Jews within the Americas.

"It is not that Jesus is God...we see Jesus praying to God. Nowhere does the [NT] identify Jesus with God... Jesus did not say, He who has seen me has seen God. He said, He who has seen me has seen the Father. There are attributes of God I do not see in Jesus...there are things which Jesus did not know. I do not see God's omnipotence in Jesus for there are things which Jesus could not do." Barclay

"Why would we expect Jews..." Warwick

Here Warwick puts himself in the camp with Marc who believes that Jews do not need to accept Jesus as the Messiah.
---scott on 10/29/14


"Confused"-Warwick

Poor Warwick. So eager to disagree he fails to see that we are saying the same thing regarding Moses. Read my comments below. Elohim in Hebrew literally means "Gods." Was Moses called Elohim/God in the original Hebrew text or not? The answer is yes. But although both Jehovah and Moses are, under inspiration, called Elohim does obviously not make them equal in any way.

Likewise the inspired Greek text calls men, Satan, Jesus and The Father "Theos"/God. It's a word that does not necessarily refer to the Almighty.
---scott on 10/28/14




Scott, being "made" as Gill says means Moses is "not a god by nature," while Barclay (whom you deceitfully misquote in a vain attempt to prove Jesus is not God) says Jesus "is of the same stuff as God, that is of the same being as God.." That is Jesus is God by nature, in fact "of the same being as God." You got yourself somewhat tangled up there!

You claim there are 942,331,000 Jews (in the Americas alone). That makes the total population of the Americas Jewish. Aymazing!

Why would we expect Jews to be Trinitarian? Most (except Messianic Jews) do not even accept Jesus as the Messiah.
---Warwick on 10/28/14


Scott, we are not confused as Exodus 7:1 shows Moses is not God-as Gill says "I have made thee a god to Pharaoh, not a god by nature, but made so, .. clothed with power and authority from God to act under him in all things he should direct, not for ever, as angels are gods" God is not made but eternal, uncreated.

The literate know it is all about reading Scripture in context. To read John 1:1 as "a god" is entirely out of context as Jesus as spoken of here is our Creator God, Redeemer, Mighty God, the Alpha and the Omega. To call Him "a god" is a rejection of who He is in the overall context.
---Warwick on 10/28/14


Irony Alert-

Is it not disingenuous and slightly ironic that, with all of the teeth gnashing that Marc directs toward Jehovah's Witnesses (8 million) regarding the Trinity, as a Christian Zionist he avoids discussing a much larger issue?

The 942,331,000 Jews (in the Americas alone) never believed in a Trinity. They flatly regard it as false today.

So, not only do Christian Zionists like Marc not expect the Jews to believe the Trinity, but they don't even expect them to believe that Jesus is the Son of God or Messiah that died for all mankind.

"Trying to convert Jews is a waste of time. Jews already have a covenant with God and that has never been replaced by Christianity." Hagee, Houston Chronicle
---scott on 10/28/14


Speaking of backpeddling, I passed my local train station yesterday and noticed 2 JWs. I asked why they regard Jesus as the Creator. They denied this, responding only YHWH is Creator. I pointed out John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16. They, faced with UNAMBIGUOUS biblical evidence, denied Jesus was Creator. I repeated the verses: "Says here Jesus created." They flashed those big JW smiles, and ignored the verses. I stated them again, and out came an off-script admission, "Well, they both created."

So, Jesus is Creator as well? The other jumped in, corrected her, "Only YHWH is Creator. We have to go", and they packed up their stuff....rapidly.

I shot them my big old smiley smiles and wished them all the best.
---Marc on 10/28/14


"Angels and judges weren't "gods" but Elohim." Marc

Yes. Notice in Marc's comments below (10-24) that the "subtle point" he refers to is that the Hebrew word "Elohim" (literally "Gods") doesn't always refer to the Almighty but rather, it has a broad range of meaning.

I agree. This is the exact argument that JWs make regarding the words Elohim, Theos, Adonay, etc.

Though literally called a God (Elohim) at Ex 7:1 Moses was not the Almighty. He was a representative for God. Same for the Judges and angels. Though literally referred to as Gods/Elohim they were obviously not the Almighty.

Same principal applies at John 1:1c.

Watch for the back-peddling.
---scott on 10/28/14


1.Scott, quoting Barclay, averred Jesus had same, essence, nature, being, in same class and order as God. If so, the two must be in same nomenclature i.e. YHWH.
2. However, if Jesus is not YHWH, but in same nomenclature, then there are 2 Gods. Watchtowerite Scott holds this view. Therefore, Scott's a polytheist.
3.Monotheists believe 'God' nomenclature has ONLY one member, YHWH. Because Jesus is contained within that nomenclature he's YHWH. Jeremiah 23:6 states Jesus is YHWH. (See Isaiah 42:8)
4.True to form, Scott misquotes New International Dictionary p. 472. It really says, "Jesus' enemies are called children of the devil, i.e. those who share his nature and behaviour." Following his Master's orders, Scott distorts truth.
---Marc on 10/25/14


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I wrote: "Angels and judges weren't "gods" but Elohim."

Scott responds with: "Then using your premise Jesus at John 1:1 wasn't God but Theos."

Scott, do you really want to run with that little piece of paralogism?

BTW, for anyone contemplating becoming a Watchtowerite, Scott and David, our JW mates here, believe Michael the angel, another god called Jesus, "in six days made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them" (Exodus 20:11), forgave sins and by his name (?Michael the angel) all men are saved. This ain't Christianity.
---Marc on 10/25/14


Scott, you would have us believe word meanings cannot be determined from context. Not so, consider the word 'punt'

1) Flat bottomed boat.
2) The act of propelling the punt with a pole.
3) To kick a football.
4) To place a bet.
5) The dimple in the base of a wine bottle.

If I wrote 'I will punt my punt to where I can have a punt on the races and afterwards celebrate with a glass of wine, noticing the punt in the bottle' you would have us believe no one can understand the various meanings intended.

Likewise" "In the beginning Elohim created the heavens and the earth." Who does Elohim describe here Scott? , Almighty God, angel, or human judge?
---Warwick on 10/24/14


"If two share same nature, both have the same nomenclature. (If X is same stuff/nature as car Y, then X MUST be car." Marc

Then Judas and the 1st century religious leaders (X) were/are actually the devil (Y):

John 6:70 - "out of you one devil is" - NT Greek text, literal translation.

"... one of you is a devil." RSV

"One who sins belongs to the devil, like Cain (1 Jn 3:8, 12), or he is a devil himself, like Judas, the betrayer (Jn 6:70)...i.e. those who share his nature and behaviour (Jn 8:44) [Acts 13:10, 1 Jn 3:10]." - p. 472, New International Dictionary of NT Theology
---scott on 10/24/14


"Angels and judges weren't "gods" but Elohim." Marc

Then using your premise Jesus at John 1:1 wasn't God but Theos.

Strong's -THEOS:

"1. A general appellation of deities...

2. "Whether Christ is called God must be determined from John 1:1, John 20:28...[etc.]...the matter is still in dispute among theologians..."

3. "The only and true God: with the article...

4...whatever can in any respect be likened to God...God's representative...judges...Moses..."

The Hebrew and Greek words (Elohim and Theos) apply to a wide variety of individuals in God's word. Doing so, by Marc's admission, does not make any of them equal to God the Almighty.
---scott on 10/24/14


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Warwick:,
// As they say birds of a feather flock together: Morenz is a Bibliosceptic, not a Christian but you stoop to using him, misquoting him.//

Yes, your observation that JW & WTS use secular & ungodly scholars to support & preach their "doctrine" is true.
They do that because the environmental origin of their cult is man's idea.
Their disguised freemason founder did not receive a single instruction/ revelation from God , was calculating end-of-the-world from a pyramid dimensions, yet he has millions of followers till today on the way to hell.
May God deliver them.
---Adetunji on 10/24/14


Scott, more deceitful evasion! The WTS and its dupes misuse the non-Christian Morenz selectively, to convince the unknowing that He believes the Biblical trinity was imported direct from Egypt when he believes the opposite He wrote "In order to avoid any gross misunderstanding, we must at once emphasize that the substance of the Christian Trinity is of course Biblical: Father, Son and Holy Ghost. The three are mentioned alongside one another in the New Testament," Where? Just put your WTS cheat-sheet down and read Scripture.

As they say birds of a feather flock together: Morenz is a Bibliosceptic, not a Christian but you stoop to using him, misquoting him. Not even the nonChristians agree with you!
---Warwick on 10/24/14


Again polytheist Scott's so intent on evading rapidly accumulating evidence against his Watchtower theology he, quite expectedly, misses my subtle point why angels and judges weren't "gods" but Elohim.

Your Watchtowerite-driven polytheism scours commentaries for anything, anything, to prop up a wisp of a theology it desperately, but mistakenly, takes an English word 'god' and synonymously applies it to 'angels' and 'judges'. Angels and judges are translated from the Hebrew word 'elohim, not 'gods'. You've taken one meaning of 'elohim' and made it the equivalent of the 2 other meanings. Only a first-year language student makes such a fundamental error. Read Psalm 82 Jesus quoted and remember Jesus articulated the word 'elohim'.
---Marc on 10/24/14


"Angels and judges weren't "gods" but elohim." Marc

And there it is...the last shred of Marc's credibility...poof.

BDG-

Elohim:


1. Rulers, judges, either as divine representatives at sacred places or as reflecting divine majesty and power...

Divine ones, superhuman beings including God and angels Psalm 8:6
Angels Psalm Job 97:7...

Gods...

2 Plural intensive.

a. god or goddess, always with suffix 1 Samuel 5:7 (Dagon), Judges 11:24...

b. godlike one Exodus 4:16...


3 The (TRUE) God, Deut 4:35,39, etc...

--

All one word: Elohim (Note the Teletubbie Purple).
---scott on 10/23/14


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"The three are mentioned alongside one another in the [NT]." Warwick/Morenz

Alongside one another? Where?

Besides, were not "Peter, John, James, Andrew, Philip, Thomas, Bartholomew, Matthew, James son of Alphaeus, Simon the Zealot, and Judas" mentioned alongside one another at Acts 1:13? Vs 14 even says they were "joined together."

What about the 500 disciples in the upper room with the Holy Spirit? All part of a mysterious, 'being' based on your premise.

This is "throw it against the wall to see if it sticks" apologetics that exposes the absence of any definitive declaration of a Trinity in God's word. That's why you have to resort to such nonsense.
---scott on 10/23/14


Scott, you endeavour to define the Greek behind John 1:1 in isolation from the rest of Scripture. However R.V.G Tasker Professor of New Testament Exegesis, University of London has said about this: "In the original there is no definite article before God. The significance of this is that the Word does not by Himself make up the entire Godhead, nevertheless the divinity that belongs to the rest of the Godhead belongs also to Him."

Tasker is well aware that taking words out of context is a pretext. He knows that Scriptures such as Colossians 1:15-17, and Hebrews 1:3 portray the Son of God as uncreated Creator of everything, He who sustains all things by His powerful word. He is therefore God the Son, not a god.
---Warwick on 10/23/14


John 1:1c
Kai Theos en o Logos
And God was the Word (lit.)
John 6:70c
Kai eksi umon eis diabolos estin
And of you one devil is (lit.)
-obviously very different grammatically, both in Greek and English.
Let's try this one:
1Co 11:3b,c,d
-oti pantos andros o kephale o Christos estin
that every man the head the Christ is (lit.)
-kephale de gunaikos o aner
head of woman the man (lit.)
-kephale de Christon o Theos
head of Christ the God (lit.)
the head of every man is the Christ, in turn, the head of a woman is the man, in turn, the head of the Christ is God. NWT
Why use articles with anarthrous nouns?
---micha9344 on 10/23/14


Scott,

Christians never believed 3 Gods. You evasively ignore the Father is a God and Jesus is a god, as your polytheistic [mis]translation teaches.
You applaud Barclay's comment that Jesus is same stuff/nature as God. If two share same nature, both have the same nomenclature. (If X is same stuff/nature as car Y, then X MUST be car.) God is One, and cannot share same stuff/nature as others. But Jesus does. The Trinity solves this paradox, the JW theology creates the contradiction of polytheism.
Angels and judges weren't "gods" but elohim. (Read ironic context connecting Psalm 82 and John 10).
Scripture misquote: Moses wasn't called "God" by YHWH but he "MADE [Moses] God TO Pharaoh".
---Marc on 10/23/14


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Scott, the WTS and its dupes misquote people in their endeavours to prove their nonsense.

You (collective) have quoted Morenz: "trinity was a major preoccupation of Egyptian theologians....three gods are combined and treated as a single being, addressed in the singular. In this way the spiritual force of Egyptian religion shows a direct link with Christian theology."

But he also wrote "In order to avoid any gross misunderstanding, we must at once emphasize that the substance of the Christian Trinity is of course Biblical: Father, Son and Holy Ghost. The three are mentioned alongside one another in the New Testament,"

Stick to playing word games with the Greek where your deceit isn't so obvious!
---Warwick on 10/23/14


Scott: "Yes, if during persecution armed men came to my house and asked if I were hiding Christians (and I was) I would lie."
How honourable. How brave.

But Scott, you would lie but you wouldn't fight to save the innocent, the lives of your neighbours, their children, their friends. You wouldn't stand up for what is right, but you would lie. Ahh, what an exemplar for all to follow.
---Marc on 10/23/14


"One God." Luke

You believe that the Father is God, the Son is God and the HS is God. You have three Gods and no where in the bible do we read of multiple "persons" in one God.

Your question: Remember that angels were called "gods", judges of Israel were called "gods" by Jesus at John 10:34, 35, Moses was called "God" by Jehovah himself (Ex 7:1) all as representatives of God Almighty.

Is that polytheism? No, the Biblical Hebrew and Greek words for "God" had a much broader meaning than they do today. JW's view on this reflects, not today's more narrow meaning but the one reflected in the original languages that God inspired his writers to employ.
---scott on 10/23/14


Tirangles are also a symbol for the Trinity.

Purple is the liturgical color for Lent in many churches.

I think his reaction to Tinky Winky says more about him than the show.

As St. Paul said, to the pure all things are pure.
---Cluny on 10/22/14

Your(defense)reaction to his reaction... says more here his does.

Paul/Titus as "rest of story", scripture below does not free pc liberals or purple triangulatedorthocats.

Tit_1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure, but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
---Trav on 10/23/14


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"To understand what John has written..." Warwick

The topic is John 1:1c. Happy to address the other verses that you introduce as Red Herrings but first:

Pick up your sword and Greek grammar. Give us your take on the third clause of the verse: "kai Theos en ho Logos."

Example: John 6:70 - "out of you one devil is" - NT Greek text.

"... one of you is a devil." RSV

"One who sins belongs to the devil, like Cain (1 Jn 3:8, 12), or he is a devil himself, like Judas, the betrayer (Jn 6:70)...i.e. those who share his nature and behaviour (Jn 8:44) [Acts 13:10, 1 Jn 3:10]." - p. 472, New International Dictionary of NT Theology
---scott on 10/23/14


Scott, by deceitful misquoting of such as Barclay, and Morenz, and the disputed meaning of a few words you endeavour to construct a complete theology.

To understand what John has written we must consider what other Scriptures say about Jesus. Colossians 1:15-17 says the Son is the uncreated Creator of everything ever created, in whom all things hold together. Hebrews 1:3 says He is the radiance of God's Glory, the exact representation of His being, sustaining everything by His powerful word.

You are exposed as a sleight-of-hand merchant who says the Creator and sustainer of all things is but "a god" a mere created being. Imagine, someone like a angel has done all this. Nothing much left for God to do is there!
---Warwick on 10/23/14


//"As far as the Greek goes" "the Word was a God" is acceptable.//

Scott, how can it be acceptable when God says, there is only one God? And there is no one like Him? You are saying two Gods are acceptable, don't you find your interpretation very un-acceptable?
Or, are you saying that Jesus is a god like all the wooden and fake gods out there? Do you put Him in that kind of group? If He is wooden or any other kind of god, He cannot die for your sins.
---Luke on 10/23/14


Tirangles are also a symbol for the Trinity.

Purple is the liturgical color for Lent in many churches.

I think his reaction to Tinky Winky says more about him than the show.

As St. Paul said, to the pure all things are pure.
Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/22/14


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"He is purple - the [G] pride color, and his antenna is shaped like a triangle - the [G] pride symbol." Sooo...

Jerry Falwell, Christian Zionist, "Parents Alert" warning that Teletubbie "Tinky Winky," may be [G].

"War strategy' - '60

Yes, if during persecution armed men came to my house and asked if I were hiding Christians (and I was)...I would lie. Apparently Marc would let them in and point the way...unless of course the armed men were purple Teletubbies. That would just be wrong.
---scott on 10/22/14


"So far as the Greek goes." Barclay

As I said on 10-20-14: "Whatever his (somewhat debatable) theological leanings, look to the Greek. THAT's the point."

If Warwick cited 1 Cor 6:18-20: "Flee from sexual immorality..."

...but Marc's translation read (as the Message Bible - apparently un-postable by CN) Warwick would say, "Let's look at the Greek!"

The NT was written in Koine Greek. Context doesn't make the anarthrous noun at John 1:1c disappear or change the simple truth (that Barclay clearly admits): "As far as the Greek goes" "the Word was a God" is acceptable.
---scott on 10/22/14


1. "[F]or the purpose of protecting the interests of God's cause, it's proper to hide truth from God's enemies. This comes under the term 'war strategy'." (WT 1/6/60) Scott, commanded to distort and ignore truth, deception and lying are his second nature.
2. "In Jehovah's organization it's unnecessary to spend time and energy researching, for there are organization brothers assigned to that very thing" (WT 1/6/67) Scott, unlike the rest of us, you must "Fight Against Independent thinking." (WT 15/1/83)
3. Let me say it once again (I can feel a frisson of delight comin' on!): A creature, an angel, a god, named Michael, created the universe. But still Scott denies the JWs are polytheists! Why? See point 1.
---Marc on 10/22/14


Scott1, the information you gave on Oct 21 regarding the Godhead shows a genuine understanding. Excellent insight. Thankyou.
---barb on 10/22/14


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Marc, Look up the Name Michael and it's meaning, What do you come up with? Something crazy??
---1stcliff on 10/22/14


"You keep on mentioning my belief that Israel has a right to exist..." Marc

"A right to exist"? You are clearly lying.

The Christian Zionist quote that you've yet to address is about Christian conversion not "rights" or politics:

"Trying to convert Jews is a waste of time. Jews already have a covenant with God and that has never been replaced by Christianity." (Hagee, Houston Chronicle, April 30, 1988, sec, 6, pg. 1).

And... "Poverty is a curse." (Hagee, Praise-A-Thon broadcast, TBN, 4 Nov 1992). Matt 23:23, Luke 2:24, Leviticus 12:6-8

Oh and what of the evil Teletubbys?
---scott on 10/22/14


Scott, your evasion changes nothing. Barclay says "The Watchtower article has, by judicious cutting, made me say the opposite of what I meant to say." What part of opposite don't you understand? He continues, Jesus "is of the same stuff as God, that is of the same being as God," Now how can Barclay write this and then say Jesus is not God? The answer lies in John where Jesus actually says "the Father (not God) sent me" 5:37,6:57, 20:21. Because of his Unitarianism he confuses "Father" with "God" and says Jesus is not the Father which is true. Contradiction solved.

Jesus is after all the uncreated, sustainer and Creator of everything.
---Warwick on 10/22/14


True to form Watchtowerite Scott dishonestly tries to redirect attention from his Master's misquotes and tendentiously cut and pasted partial quotes with irrelevancies about, who? Hagee, Falwell, teletubbies, in order to mask the enormous difficulties JWs have explaining Jesus' role in creation.

Scott I love it when you keep on mentioning my belief that Israel has a right to exist while refusing to explain how a creature, an angel to be more precise, can create the universe. By not dealing with this oddity the truth about the Watchtower remains for all to see.

An angel? Think about it. It's got to be the craziest bit of paganism pretending to be Christianity the world has seen.
---Marc on 10/22/14


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Once again, dishonest Watchtowerite Scott only partially quotes Barclay. The complete quote is: ""In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God." You could translate, so far as the Greek goes: "the Word was a God", but it seems obvious that this is so much against the whole of the rest of the New Testament that it is wrong. I am quite sure myself that the following is the correct translation."

I shouldn't be so harsh and condemnatory about Scott's zealotry for his Master. After all, his Brooklyn Master approved the partial quote, as they so often do, and Scott proudly and trustingly provided it to us. In Brooklyn we trust, eh Scott!
---Marc on 10/22/14


"You have Barclay saying..." Warwick

I don't have him saying anything. He speaks for himself.


"It is not that Jesus is God. Time and time again the Fourth Gospel speaks of God sending Jesus into the world. Time and time again we see Jesus praying to God. Nowhere does the [NT] identify Jesus with God...

... Jesus did not say, He who has seen me has seen God. He said, He who has seen me has seen the Father. There are attributes of God I do not see in Jesus. I do not see God's omnipotence in Jesus, for there are things which Jesus did not know. I do not see God's omnipotence in Jesus for there are things which Jesus could not do."

William Barclay
---scott on 10/21/14


"Distortion"- Mark

Was it?

Don't make me pull out the highlighter....too late.

"You could translate, so far as the Greek goes: the Word was a God."

William Barclay. Taken from: Barclay, William (b.1907-d.1978), D.D., Lecturer in the University of Glasgow. Ever Yours, A Selection From the Letters of William Barclay. Rawlins, Clive L. (b.1940-d.?), Compiler &
Editor. (Dunbar, England: Labarum Publications, 1985). OCLC: 12763593. ISBN: 0948095040 & 9780948095047.



So how 'bout those evil Teletubbies Marc?
---scott on 10/21/14


Scott, Barclay says, Jesus the Son of Man (flesh), is not God, as God is Spirit.

Jesus the man (flesh) was limited-e.g.limited to one place at a time, while God (Spirit) is everywhere.

However as Hebrews ch's. 1 and 2 show Jesus was both God and man. Two natures, God, and man. Who died upon the cross Scott?

You have Barclay saying Jesus was not God and also saying He is! Contradiction there! Is he confused or was he was saying Jesus as to His Spirit is "the same being as God" but Jesus the man is not? He is not confused.
---Warwick on 10/21/14


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Barclay 2

Elsewhere Barclay expressed, "The deliberate distortion of truth by this sect is seen in their New testament translations. John 1:1 is translated: 'the Word was a god ' a translation which is grammatically impossible. It is abundantly clear that a sect which can translate the New Testament like that is intellectually dishonest."

Scott approvingly quotes Barclay, "The Word was in the same class as God, belonging to the same order of being as God" but refuses to see that if God is a unique class, how can a mere created being (a.k.a. Jesus the archangel Michael) belong to that class which only has 1 member, namely God Almighty.
---Marc on 10/21/14


Scott, Hebrews ch.1 reveals God the Son, Spirit, "who sustains all things." Colossians 1:15-17 shows Him -uncreated Creator of everything. God or creature? The Messiah states "a body you have prepared for me" Hebrews 10:5.

Hebrews ch.2 reveals this "body" as the Son of Man, flesh. This flesh was not God, but the physical representation of God so Jesus could say "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father" John 14:9.

Two natures, God and man.

Barclay, referring to JW deceit wrote, Jesus "is of the same stuff as God, that is of the same being as God" He is not saying Jesus the man is God, but is saying the Son of God (Spirit) is God, though not the Father, obviously.
---Warwick on 10/21/14


/Here at the beginning John says three things about the word, which is to say that he says three things about Jesus.
(i) The word was already there at the very beginning things...the word is not one of the created things...the word is part of eternity...
(ii) John goes on to say that the word was with God...there has always been the most intimate connection between Jesus and God...
(iii) ...When John said the word was God he was not saying that Jesus was identical with God, he was saying that Jesus was so perfectly the same as God in mind, in heart, in being that in him we perfectly see what God is like.\
William Barclay, The Gospel of John Study Bible.
---micha9344 on 10/21/14


//I do not see God's omnipotence in Jesus, for there are things which Jesus did not know. I do not see God's omnipotence in Jesus for there are things which Jesus could not do."//Scott

Here's your problem the Son (Jesus) is not the Father but he is still part of the Godhead. When reading the Bible it is actually God the Son that we see act in the Bible. When the Bible says that God is one it means in character, focus, and agreement. However they have different characteristics that compliment each other in perfect relationship, "if you have seen me you have seen the Father." Unlike polytheism inwhich the gods are at war/tension with each other to produce actions. Our God produces action through love and relationship.
---Scott1 on 10/21/14


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Do Jews need to accept Christ?... scott

irrelevant if one "accepts" Christ. the crux of the matter is whether Christ Jesus accepts you.

Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'
Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you, depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

In a parable, the Master kicked out the man who came in without a wedding garment.
---aka on 10/21/14


"Barclay"...again.

"It is not that Jesus is God. Time and time again the Fourth Gospel speaks of God sending Jesus into the world. Time and time again we see Jesus praying to God. Nowhere does the [NT] identify Jesus with God...

...Nowhere does the [NT] identify Jesus as God. Jesus did not say, He who has seen me has seen God. He said, He who has seen me has seen the Father. There are attributes of God I do not see in Jesus. I do not see God's omnipotence in Jesus, for there are things which Jesus did not know. I do not see God's omnipotence in Jesus for there are things which Jesus could not do."

William Barclay - A Spiritual Autobiography, pp. 49, 50, 56. 1975
---scott on 10/21/14


Do Jews need to accept Christ?

Questions left unanswered by Christian Zionist Marc.


Why in direct contrast to the teachings of God's word do Christian Zionists teach that:

"Trying to convert Jews is a waste of time. Jews already have a covenant with God and that has never been replaced by Christianity." (Hagee, Houston Chronicle, April 30, 1988, sec, 6, pg. 1).

2. "Poverty is a curse." (Hagee, Praise-A-Thon broadcast, TBN, 4 Nov 1992). Matt 23:23, Luke 2:24, Leviticus 12:6-8

We are also curious as to Christian Zionist Falwell's remarks regarding who is responsible for AIDS in the world, the 911 attacks and oh yes, the evil Teletubbys.
---scott on 10/21/14


Steveng:
Please tell us why the Lord & the 12 had to have a bag or purse of money with a disciple assigned to managing it?
---Adetunji on 10/20/14

Noted: Why indeed. You, don't emphasize Judas, was treasurer of the bag/purse of money. 12 - Judas made 11.

Joh 13:29 For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast, or, that he should give something to the poor.

Going to buy the sheep back? Would say you've never spent 1 Kobo looking for one.

Isa_52:3 For thus saith the LORD, Ye have sold yourselves for nought, ye shall be redeemed without money.
---Trav on 10/21/14


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\\The Unitarian Barclay responded, "[Jesus] is of the same stuff as God, that is of the same being as God."\\

Which is what "homoousios" means.

Barclay was not officially a Unitarian, but a minister of the Church of Scotland and professor at one of their seminaries.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/21/14


"Cannot promote anything which supports Trinitarian beliefs" Warwick

And...

"They had him saying the opposite of what he meant!" Warwick

Which is it? Either JWs misrepresented him or they did represent him but his exegesis was flawed, biased and inaccurate because he was not Trinitarian. Which is it? Can't have it both ways.

Speaking out of both sides of your mouth has our collective head spinning my old friend.
---scott on 10/20/14


Cliff, true to form you do not respond to what is written or Scriptures given, but in fact ignore it all and move on to some irrelevant point.

Are you saying that God's creation occurred in 1513 BC? If so then Scripture disagrees. If not then your point is pointless.

Was God not there, knowing what happened, and when? Or do you say Moses made it up? Is Genesis ch.1 God's truth about creation or is it Moses story?

Are the Biblical genealogies (giving c4,000 years from creation to Jesus) God's truth or man's fables?

Now come on Cliff answer some questions. It would be a first but I am confident you can do it!
---Warwick on 10/20/14


Warwick, Moses wrote Genesis about 1513 BCE, the Vedas (baskets of wisdom)(Sanskrit) pre date Moses by hundreds of years.
There's no known writing (alphabetic) before this time !
---1stcliff on 10/20/14


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Barclay 1

After being informed The Watchtower (15/5/77) misled (a.k.a. lied) its readers when they quoted him concerning the grammar of John 1:1, The Unitarian Barclay responded, "[Jesus] is of the same stuff as God, that is of the same being as God."


Scott, how can a mere created being (i.e. Jesus the archangel Michael) be of the same stuff and being as the unique God Almighty without being God?
---Marc on 10/20/14


I have been told by people I trust that Barclay did not believe in the physical Resurrection of Christ.

Here are two things about him from his authorized biography:

**scepticism concerning the Trinity: for example "Nowhere does the New Testament identify Jesus with God."[3]
belief in universal salvation: in his autobiography he wrote, "I am a convinced universalist. I believe that in the end all men will be gathered into the love of God."[4]**

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/20/14


"Barclay is not a Trinitarian" Warwick

Your "argument" is either classic 'Bulverism' or 'Poisoning the well.' Can't decide which...maybe a little of both.

You casually dismiss one incredibly important bible scholar because his exegesis of the Greek at John 1:1 exposes the popular Trinitarian rendering (your rendering of choice) as false?

Whatever his (somewhat debatable) theological leanings, look to the Greek. THAT's the point. Prove his scholarly handling of John 1:1c is incorrect....that is, if you want to be taken seriously.

Tell us about John's use of the anarthrous noun at 1:1c.
---scott on 10/20/14


Cliff, Hinduism does not predate our faith as our Saviour, the Son of God is the uncreated Creator of all things ever created-Colossians 1:15-17. And ". was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest (in flesh) in the last times for the sake of you" 1 Peter 1:20. Of course the name "Christianity" is man made but its origin was not the beginning of our faith. Our Saviour is eternal therefore obviously before Hinduism.

BTW God has revealed Himself in three persons, not three personalities. God is not man, not flesh, but Spirit and Jesus fully God (Hebrews ch.1) and fully man (Hebrews ch.2) is the living image of God as Colossians 1:15, and John 14:8,9 clearly demonstrate.
---Warwick on 10/20/14


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Scott, the point you evade is that Barclay is not a Trinitarian, but a Unitarian and this constrains him because being Unitarian he obviously cannot promote anything which supports Trinitarian beliefs, just as an atheist cannot support Christian beliefs. What would you expect? Nonetheless he accuses JWs of deceit in that by "judicious cutting" they had him saying the opposite of what he meant! To clarify he later wrote that he believes Jesus "..is of the same stuff as God, that is of the same being as God," To cut through his Unitarian obfuscation he is saying Jesus is God, but not the Father. But neither is the Father the Son, nor is the Holy Spirit, the Father, nor....
---Warwick on 10/20/14


Hinduism predates Christianity by thousands of years,as does Brahma Vishnu and Siva (Hindu trinity) Baal had multiple personalities also, so to differentiate Himself from these pagan gods, God stated in Deut.6.4. that he was a "singular" God!
Having a Son does not make Him a duel personality!
---1stcliff on 10/20/14


Barclay- Warwick (2)

Cont.

"If John had said ho theos en ho logos, using a definite article in front of both nouns, then he would have definitely identified the Logos with God, but because he has no definite article in front of theos it becomes a description, and more of an adjective than a noun. The translation then becomes..."The Word was in the same class as God, belonging to the same order of being as God." ...Wuest...has: "The Word was as to his essence essential deity." ...the NEB [has] "What God was the Word was." John is not here identifying the Word with God. To put it very simply, he does not say that Jesus was God'" (William Barclay, Many Witnesses, One Lord, p23-24)
---scott on 10/20/14


Steveng: You queried the large congregation's need for money? Please tell us why the Lord & the 12 had to have a bag or purse of money with a disciple assigned to managing it?
---Adetunji on 10/20/14


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Barclay- Warwick (1)

The JW's point regarding Barclay addresses the Greek at John 1:1 not his personal, (contradictory) theological views:

"Now normally, except for special reasons, Greek nouns always have the definite article in front of them...when a Greek noun has not got the article in front of it, it becomes rather a description than an identification, and has the character of an adjective rather than a noun. We can see exactly the same in English. If I say, 'James is the man', then I identify James with some definite man whom I have in mind, but, if I say, 'James is man', then I am simply describing James as human, and the word man has become a description and not an identification..."

Cont.
---scott on 10/20/14


Strange argument....The Egyptians embraced their "trinity" hundreds of years before the school of Antioch , from where did the "school" get their doctrine???
---1stcliff on 10/19/14

if various pagan groups practiced baptismal rights, where did the JWs learn this? where did you learn this?
---aka on 10/20/14


//The Egyptians embraced their "trinity" hundreds of years before the school of Antioch , from where did the "school" get their doctrine???//

1Cliff, why don't you tell all of us when the trinity was first used? You seem to know a lot of worldly stuff, and you seem to like to argue many points of Scripture, you should know where it started and have some proof of what you say, not just more talk, anyone can talk but not everyone speaks the truth.
---Luke on 10/20/14


Strange argument....The Egyptians embraced their "trinity" hundreds of years before the school of Antioch , from where did the "school" get their doctrine???
---1stcliff on 10/19/14


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//But the doctrine is NOT Egyptian, as theologians of the Antiochian school taught it, as well.// cluny

this is true of baptism also. it has been used by many groups and people over many generations. it does not mean that all baptismal rights are from "ancient pagan ritual" and are not of God.
---aka on 10/19/14


...Still only 12 (not 13) since Levites did not receive a land inheritance. ---scott

Good summation...but that is not the end.

ALL Israel will receive inheritance as promised (Dan. 24-27 in a slightly different order (Rev. 7).

1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others, but let us watch and be sober.
---aka on 10/19/14


\\By deceitful selection the WTS has Morenz saying the Trinity is Egyptian, not Biblical, untrue!
---Warwick on 10/17/14
\\

But the doctrine is NOT Egyptian, as theologians of the Antiochian school taught it, as well.

OTOH, you are right when you say that the Watchtower organization is deceitful.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/18/14


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